Trinity Versus Godhead In Lds Accepted Scriptures!

[Stephen]

Trinity versus the Godhead in LDS accepted scriptures! This paper is also titled: The effects of cognitive dissonance!

First of all one needs to understand the difference between the Biblical Trinity and the LDS Godhead. The Bible recognizes: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as distinct individuals that comprise the one eternal God. The LDS Godhead is: three separate gods that are one in purpose. The purpose of this paper is to demonstrate that the books that Mormons accept as scriptures teach the Trinity and the Godhead. The difference between the Biblical Trinity and the Mormon Godhead is too contradictory to reconcile as one soon realizes as these scripture verses are studied and compared. I will only use scripture references to establish the points that I set out to prove in this paper. Both the Bible and the following L.D.S. scriptures will be used in this paper which books are: the Book of Mormon, Doctrine&Covenants and Pearl of Great Price.

The first point is: Jesus Christ is one with God the Father:

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him”(John 14:23).

“But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me”(John 15:26).

“At that day ye shall know that I(Jesus) am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”(John 14:20).

“Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works”(John 14:8-10).

This is also clearly shown in the Book of Mormon:

.......and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil”(Alma 12:44).

“And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, I verily say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one”(3Nephi 11:27).

“And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in the flesh he shall be called the Son of Dod, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son- The Father because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son- And they are one God, yea the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth”(Mosiah 15:1-4).

We can see from the above quoted verses that Book of Mormon itself affirms that: the Father and the Son are one God, yea the very Eternal Father of heaven and earth. Why don’t members of the LDS Church believe it?

This is also clearly taught in the Doctrine&Covenants:

“Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen”(Doctrine&Covenants 20:28).

“And the Father and I are one. I am in the Father and the Father in me; and inasmuch as ye have received me, ye are in me and I in you”(Doctrine&Covenants 50:43).

The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one God:

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”(1John 5:8).

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily”(Colossians 2:8-9).

This clearly teaches that: The Father and the Holy Ghost are found bodily in Jesus Christ. For the fullness of the Godhead is found bodily in Jesus Christ.

“And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen”(2Nephi 31:21).

L.D.S. scriptures also teach that there is many gods and that Jesus Christ, the Father and the Holy Ghost are three separate Gods:

“According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved for the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his eternal rest”(Doctrine&Covenants 121:32).

“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us”(Doctrine&Covenants 130:22).

“Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods”(Doctrine&Covenants 132:37).

“And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth. And the earth after it was desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and the darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the waters. And they(the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light. And they(the Gods) comprehended the light for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness. And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. And it came to pass that from the evening until the morning they called night; and from the morning until the evening they called day; and this was the first, or the beginning of that which they called day and night. And the Gods also said: Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters”(Abraham 4:1-6).

It is the opinion of the writer of this paper that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are in a tough dilemma. Do you believe the Bible and Book of Mormon are scriptures which clearly teach that God is Trinity by nature? These three...the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one God without end!

Or do you believe the Doctrine&Covenants and Book of Abraham when those books teach polytheism? The Doctrine&Covenants and Book of Abraham recognize the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost as Gods. The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that there are many gods and that humans can become gods. What do Mormons believe when there own scriptures contradict each other?

“And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of the priesthood; and it shall be said unto them- Ye shall come froth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths- Then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world: and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them”(Doctrine&Covenants 132: 19-20).

To Christians only God has all power and only God is above all and all things are subject unto him including the whole human race. Yet to Mormons they can become Gods and have all power given unto them! One can only hope that one day they will believe what the Bible clearly teaches about God. Also Mormons should accept what the Book of Mormon clearly teaches about God which is accepted by Mormons as the most correct book on earth and clearly teaches that God is Trinity!

[Guest Starsky]

hmmmmm here again? You have read the Father's right? You know there is ancient teachings of such doctrine...way before Mormons came to be...right?

[Guest TheProudDuck]

The short version of what has been said before on these boards is that since the LDS Church accepts the Book of Mormon as scripture, it also accepts the passages that describe the Godhead as one God. The Church, as far as I am aware, generally doesn't use the phrase "separate gods" when referring to the Father and the Son; the usual language is "separate personages" or possibly "separate beings." The unity among the members of the Godhead is often described in shorthand as being of "purpose" (that description appears in the new gospel reference guide -- I can't recall the exact title -- which the Church recently put out). However, it does seem to me that this shorthand, while helpful, doesn't capture the entire sense in which the members of the Godhead are "one." That's not surprising, since we're dealing with infinite divine Beings here, whose full attributes ordinary language is only partially competent to describe.

Viewed at a distance, the LDS and Athanasian/Nicene Christian concepts of the Trinity aren't as far apart as partisans of both sides would have it. Both could agree that there is one sense in which the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three entities, and there is another in which they are one entity.

Clearly, to neither side are the members of the Godhead/Trinity "one" in the ordinary sense. An ordinary Bob doesn't stand on the right hand of Bob himself, as St. Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God (presumably the Father). Bob ordinarily doesn't get baptized and then hear himself speaking out of heaven that he's well pleased with himself, and is his own son. At the risk of seeming irreverent, the point is that we're both talking about a kind of metaphysical "oneness" here, not the regular kind. The disagreements are not as to type, as might be the case if Mormons denied that the members of the Godhead were "one" in any sense whatsover, but rather of degree. That is, the Athanasians believe that the members of the Trinity/Godhead are "more one" than Mormons do -- if indeed the language of more or less is even applicable to such philosophical distinctions. This isn't a black-and-white-disagreement; we're arguing green vs. chartreuse.

And of course once we've established that the oneness of the Trinity isn't the ordinary oneness of earthly objects, there really is no philosophical bar to our considering that the Godhead might ultimately encompass billions of persons, as Christians become one with the Savior and each other, as ordained in the New Testament. This wouldn't be "polytheism" any more than the doctrine of the Trinity itself is polytheistic. If we can consider a philosophic sense in which three can be one, why couldn't three billion also be one in that same sense?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Stephen@May 18 2004, 01:19 PM

It is the opinion of the writer of this paper that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are in a tough dilemma.

...the writer of this paper...???

Who? Do you mean YOU, Stevo?

What's the dilemma? That you misinterpret and misapply our scriptures. How is that a dilemma for anyone but you? You must have an incredibly inflated opinion of the worth of your opinion but the fact is it bothers the Church not one bit that you don't get it.

You know Stephen, you, "the writer of this paper" alternately titled it The Effects of Cognitive Dissonance but you forgot to cover either cognitive dissonance or even its effects. Perhaps a better title should have been, How I, "The Writer of this Paper", Interpret LDS Scriptures and Then Whine About Why Mormons Don't Interpret Them the Same Way I Do.

By the way, you have entirely missed the point Steve while you were busy failing to talk about either dissonance or its effects; and that is not the the Godhead is one. We acknowledge that it it is. What reject is the interpretation of 4th century politicos led by the serial killer Constantine that try to define HOW they are one.

And, obiviously, general Christianity agrees that the Bible is not explicit in HOW the Godhead is one. If it were, then there would be no need for the creeds and counsels that were called to explain it. They were necessary of course. In the absence of revelation, get a committee and take a vote. Works every time.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

*ker-thump*

[Snow]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@May 19 2004, 10:39 AM

*ker-thump*

It's the hollow use of the "cognitive dissonance" bit that stands out as so imbecilic - mostly by people who have so clear understanding of what it really means and how the concept applies to reality.

Some years ago, some disaffected ex-Mormon clown took a college psych course and learned about cognitive dissonance theory - 101... [by the way, we are strong believers in education and even encourage apostates to try and better themselves by availing themselves of local community colleges, extension courses, regional occupational programs, reading People magazine, etc]... and then thought, "Hey, I betcha I can use this little tidbit of new found knowledge to demean and belittle the religion that from which I real disaffected;" and so wrote a piece, probably on exmo.com or something, about Mormonism and cognitive dissonance... Forward a couple years and every anti-Mormon clown who wants who trolls the internet and wants to sound better educated than they actually are writes a post that misapplies the theory.

Course, what do I know. Maybe Steve has a clue but forgot to post the part of his paper that actually dealt with "cognitive dissonance"

Maybe, but I doubt it.

Oh, and by the by... why do you think that some who no longer believe in the veracity of the Church, rather than forgetting it and moving on, attack and demean it?

Hint: It starts with cognitive and ends with dissonance and a desire to reconcile the seemingly (for them) unreconcilable.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@May 19 2004, 10:39 AM

*ker-thump*

Yeah I am dense....but how do we interpret 'ker thump'.....as the sound from the drum after a line is delivered? or 'ker thump' the sound of your jaw dropping? LOL :)

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Starsky+May 19 2004, 04:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starsky @ May 19 2004, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@May 19 2004, 10:39 AM

*ker-thump*

Yeah I am dense....but how do we interpret 'ker thump'.....as the sound from the drum after a line is delivered? or 'ker thump' the sound of your jaw dropping? LOL :)

Actually, that was kinda ambiguous, wasn't it?

It was supposed to be the sound of a large mallet being applied to a foolish head. The sound of a pillow in the kisser. Other sounds given consideration were the sound of an anvil plummeting onto someone, or a battery of 155-mm howitzers unloading a time-on-target barrage.

Snow does have a gift for opening people new apertures, doses of which I do appreciate from time to time.

(When done on other people, I mean.)

[Guest Starsky]

AW....yes....

[Guest Taoist_Saint]