Please explain this to me... I honestly don't understand

[HiJolly]

Polygamy was NOT practiced in Greek and Roman societies of the time:

Like I said, SEMITIC peoples.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Honestly, I am undecided on that issue. I read that when Joseph's ways were exposed in a newspaper he declared martial law and was indicted for treason, was put in jail, and sent someone out to bring back men to break him out of jail. The person declined, and an angry mob broke in and murdered him.

That's not what I would view as an accurate description. I don't know if anyone has pointed you to FARMS or FAIR, but I highly recommend them as a resource for hearing what happened. I'm feeling the time crunch, myself.

LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage

The Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship

HiJolly

[Shell72]

Oh really? Then why are you so consumed with pointing out the faults of a man?.

Because this man directly contradicts what God has instructed. And built an entire church movement based on his words. So if some of his words were false it is difficult to believe that some were truthful.

God's truth has to do with doctrine and saving ordinances. It's only man who needs answers to all questions and points to a person's shortcomings as proof that they aren't a prophet.

God's words on the subject:

who foils the signs of false prophets and makes fools of diviners, who overthrows the learning of the wise and turns it into nonsense, Isaaih 44:24-26

Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds. Jeremiah 14: 13-15

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." Mathew 7:14-16

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves." 2 Peter: 2:1

I am not saying that without a doubt Joseph Smith was a false prophet - I am still in the throes of digesting all of this. What I am saying is God warned us of False prophets and instructed us to be aware.

[Shell72]

That's not what I would view as an accurate description. I don't know if anyone has pointed you to FARMS or FAIR, but I highly recommend them as a resource for hearing what happened. I'm feeling the time crunch, myself.

LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage

The Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship

HiJolly

Thank you... I do want to learn more about the circumstance of his death so I appreciate the links.

[the_jason]

I am not saying that without a doubt Joseph Smith was a false prophet - I am still in the throes of digesting all of this. What I am saying is God warned us of False prophets and instructed us to be aware.

Then the only way you are going to know if he's a prophet is to pray and receive a confirmation of the Spirit. Picking apart his works and his character is not the way. God will not give you an answer if you are not open-minded. It sounds like you already have your mind made up.

[HiJolly]

Thank you... I do want to learn more about the circumstance of his death so I appreciate the links.

As you might imagine, those sympathetic to his cause and claims of prophetic calling (like me ) call his death a martyrdom. Search on that, maybe? I've been to the Carthage jail where he & his brother were killed, it was quite a moving experience for me.

HiJolly

[Shell72]

. God will not give you an answer if you are not open-minded. It sounds like you already have your mind made up.

So because I question things, as God instructed us to do, He will not give me an answer? Is that what you are saying?

[Shell72]

As you might imagine, those sympathetic to his cause and claims of prophetic calling (like me ) call his death a martyrdom. Search on that, maybe? I've been to the Carthage jail where he & his brother were killed, it was quite a moving experience for me.

HiJolly

I can imagine that would be very moving to be at the place where one you revere and respect was killed. I am going to read more on his death, as I have been reading so much on his life lately perhaps if I went to the end of the story and worked backwards I may get more understanding.

[the_jason]

That's not what I'm saying at all. Your questions appear very closed-minded. You already have your mind made up about Joseph Smith. I'm not sure you would change your mind if God himself came to you and told you Joseph was a prophet. You'd still have doubts.

I frankly couldn't care less if you believe or not. It doesn't affect me one bit. But don't sit there and pick apart his character and doubt most of what he did and then say you just want to know the truth. In your mind you think you do know the truth, so you're not going to get a different answer.

[Elphaba]

Polygamy in the early days of the restored church solidified it (population wise) in ways that are invaluable and cemented its beginnings for a firm foundation to grow.

This is a myth. Polygamy played no part in boosting, or "solidifying," the LDS population whatsoever.

Is it something I agree with? absolutely not, not for any sentimental reasons, I would hate to mow 3 lawns, take out 3 trashes and have to listen to 3 women instead of 1. That sounds like a nightmare to me lol. If you are looking at it in a carnal sense then sure it would be cool for about 3 weeks , then it would be horrble! lol see above sentence for reasons why

I'm sure, in an eternal sense, there are women out there who are ecstatic they can't have you.

Elphaba

[HiJolly]

So because I question things, as God instructed us to do, He will not give me an answer? Is that what you are saying?

I have nothing against questions, myself.

"I think that not asking questions -- even tough questions -- is

more dangerous. And when it comes to our ethical beliefs, not

asking questions quite possibly might be unethical in and of itself."

--"Ethics Matters" columnist Carlton Vogt

"To refuse to doubt, think about or question what you are told

is to miss an opportunity to talk to God"

-- Father Leo Booth

"The unexamined life is not worth living"

-- Socrates

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

I can imagine that would be very moving to be at the place where one you revere and respect was killed. I am going to read more on his death, as I have been reading so much on his life lately perhaps if I went to the end of the story and worked backwards I may get more understanding.

I can hardly imagine the depth of emotion I would experience were I to visit Gethsemane. Or Golgotha. Or the tomb.

HiJolly

[Joette]

All I can say on this matter is that when Joseph Smith was 14 he went into a Grove of trees to pray for guidance as to which Church was true.

Through a series of Revelations he had the Keys of the Priesthood restored to him & eventually restored the Church in the Latter Days.

Was he a Prophet of God.?I have no doubts on this.Was he a good husband &father?According to Emma & his children he was.

Was he perfect? Off course he wasn't I accept he made mistakes but commit adultery-sorry cannot believe that.

My source is one that is available to anybody-study it out in your mind & then ask God & if it's true you will get a confirmation from the Spirit-that's how I got my testimony of anything.

[Shell72]

I have nothing against questions, myself.

"I think that not asking questions -- even tough questions -- is

more dangerous. And when it comes to our ethical beliefs, not

asking questions quite possibly might be unethical in and of itself."

--"Ethics Matters" columnist Carlton Vogt

"To refuse to doubt, think about or question what you are told

is to miss an opportunity to talk to God"

-- Father Leo Booth

"The unexamined life is not worth living"

-- Socrates

HiJolly

:) Thank you!

[HiJolly]

I'm sure, in an eternal sense, there are women out there who are ecstatic they can't have you.

Elphaba

<hush sweeps over the crowd>... skewered on the pithy point of Elphaba's verbal sword...

Nice thrust.

HiJolly

[Shell72]

All I can say on this matter is that when Joseph Smith was 14 he went into a Grove of trees to pray for guidance as to which Church was true.

Through a series of Revelations he had the Keys of the Priesthood restored to him & eventually restored the Church in the Latter Days.

Was he a Prophet of God.?I have no doubts on this.Was he a good husband &father?According to Emma & his children he was.

Was he perfect? Off course he wasn't I accept he made mistakes but commit adultery-sorry cannot believe that.

My source is one that is available to anybody-study it out in your mind & then ask God & if it's true you will get a confirmation from the Spirit-that's how I got my testimony of anything.

Jolette if that is what works for you, then far be it from me or anyone else to tell you otherwise. Your relationship is between you and God and no mortal has the right to interfere in that. It makes no one better, or worse - just different :)

[Shell72]

<hush sweeps over the crowd>... skewered on the pithy point of Elphaba's verbal sword...

Nice thrust.

HiJolly

:lol:LOL.

[JonboySquarepants]

dang, i go out to drop somebody off at work and get an oil change and look how much i've missed! :)

[JonboySquarepants]

hijolly, do you know if it was known to the members of the church back then that he did have more than one wife? because if they did know, and other people already knew, why bother lying about it?

[JonboySquarepants]

the jason, how does the bible tell us to test a prophet?

[the_jason]

the jason, how does the bible tell us to test a prophet?

I'm not sure what you mean. To my knowledge, the Bible doesn't tell us to test a prophet.

[JonboySquarepants]

sorry, i didn't quote what i was referring to. you said to someone that "...the only way you are going to know if he's a prophet is to pray and receive a confirmation of the Spirit. Picking apart his works and his character is not the way."

it's always been my understanding that to know if he's a prophet, to test a prophet in other words, is by what he teachs about God.

"The Bible never says to test a prophet by prayer, but by his message. Deuteronomy 13 warns that a prophet must teach correctly about God. Chapter 18 tells us the prophet's prophecies must come to pass. Paul tells us in Galatians 1:8-9 that even angels can appear with a wrong message. We are to compare the message with the teachings of the apostles. In Acts 17:10-12, when Paul went to Berea to proclaim Jesus as the Messiah to the Jews, we read "these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed..." Note, Paul did not tell them to go home and pray about it. They were praised for searching the scriptures, in other words, testing the message to see if it agreed with the prophecies of the Messiah."

[the_jason]

The problem lies with the intent of the heart. If you have your mind made up about something and aren't willing to be open-minded, then the Spirit won't be able to testify of the truth. Analyzing a person to gain a better understanding of them is one thing. Picking apart their character in order to find something that isn't righteous is quite another. If you look for the bad you'll only find the bad.

[Shell72]

That is what I was always taught Jonboysquarepants ( whew! that is a mouthful!) and that is why I see no harm in questioning Joseph Smith as we have been warned that false prophets would come. I feel that his behaviors are in direct contradiction of God's word and that is why my questions have come about.

[Shell72]

The problem lies with the intent of the heart. If you have your mind made up about something and aren't willing to be open-minded, then the Spirit won't be able to testify of the truth. Analyzing a person to gain a better understanding of them is one thing. Picking apart their character in order to find something that isn't righteous is quite another. If you look for the bad you'll only find the bad.

God told us to be wary. His character and his actions are clues to investigate furthur. We can not just pray "God is this man telling the truth?" - we must use the brains and intelligence God blessed us with to read His own message and compare that to the message of any man in my opinon.