Doctrine Of Election

[Maureen]

I borrowed all this from a post I did in response to one of Snow's thread's I believe called Salvation without Faith - I've edited this one a little.

From the essay, My Understanding of the Biblical Doctrine of Election by Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. he says of God and the doctrine of Election:

http://www.bible.org/docs/soapbox/election.htm

…Many folks want to seek a balance between God's sovereignty and human free will. A balance needs to be sought, but this is not the place. Nowhere do we read in the Bible that God is not sovereign over our wills. Further, we have the explicit testimony of Romans 9 to the opposite effect. As well, there is an inherent imbalance between a creature's will and the Creator's will. What right do we have to claim that these two are equal?

The real balance comes between the two broad categories of God's attributes. God has moral attributes (goodness, love, mercy, justice, etc.) and amoral attributes (he is infinite, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, etc.). In short, the balance is between his sovereignty and his goodness. If God only had amoral attributes, he may well be a tyrant. If he only had moral attributes, he would be incapable of effecting change in the world; he would be impotent.

Putting all this together we see the majesty and mystery of God. God's attributes cannot be compartmentalized. That is, he is good in his sovereignty, infinite in his mercy, loving in his omnipotence. However, we as mere finite creatures cannot comprehend the grandeur of his plan. Isaiah 55:8-9 says: "My ways are not your ways, and my thoughts are not your thoughts; but just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." There is no contradiction in God, but there is finite understanding in us.

The doctrine of election tells us that God chooses who he desires to know Him through the power of the Holy Spirit (without taking away free choice), which in turn can be like a domino effect; when we share with others the wonderfulness of God.

Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ. For he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we may be holy and unblemished in his sight in love. He did this by predestining us to adoption as his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure of his will— to the praise of the glory of his grace that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace that he lavished on us in all wisdom and insight. He did this when he revealed to us the secret of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, toward the administration of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ—the things in heaven and the things on earth. In Christ we too have been claimed as God’s own possession, since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, would be to the praise of his glory. And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation)—when you believed in Christ—you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:3-14)

The book of Romans I believe may have the answer (in a round about way) how faith is central to knowing about God but also that life is not so cut and dry and that not everyone can come to that knowledge. Romans says this:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. (Romans 1:18-20)

These verses though seem to be talking about people who have a choice because of knowledge and have chosen to reject God.

Romans also says:

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach), because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation. For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who richly blesses all who call on him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. How are they to call on one they have not believed in? And how are they to believe in one they have not heard of? And how are they to hear without someone preaching to them? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How timely is the arrival of those who proclaim the good news.” But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ. (Romans 10:8-17)

So through the doctrine of election God has supplied us with knowledge of Him through the proclaiming of His good news by those he has chosen to proclaim Him, ie ministers, preachers, missionaries, even ourselves.

Paul asks:

But I ask, have they not heard? Yes, they have: Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. But again I ask, didn’t Israel understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation; with a senseless nation I will provoke you to anger.” And Isaiah is even bold enough to say, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I became well known to those who did not ask for me.” But about Israel he says, “All day long I held out my hands to this disobedient and stubborn people!” (Romans 10:18-21)

Paul is specifically talking about Israel here. Israel has rejected Christ, so does that make them lost, their situation hopeless? No! Ecclesiastes 3:1 says:

For everything there is an appointed time, and an appropriate time for every activity on earth…

Romans 11:32-36 says:

For God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he may show mercy to them all. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how fathomless his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has first given to God, that God needs to repay him? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever! Amen.

So God is really in charge. If God is waiting for an appropriate time to bless Israel he more than likely has the same intent for those who made their own choice to reject God and for those who had no choice.

...but as it is written: “Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand.” (Romans 15:21, see also Isaiah 52:15)

But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

I believe God gives mankind many chances to know Him, through the Holy Spirit. In the end I believe God will have the final say on who will have salvation and whatever he chooses and judges will be good.

M.

[Maureen]

A little more from the same thread: Salvation without Faith, regarding the Doctrine of Election:

This is how I understand the doctrine of Election. This is new to me so I'm still trying to figure it out myself:

Man because of sin does not naturally seek after God:

…just as it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one, there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. (Romans 3:10-11)

God instead seeks after man to draw mankind to Him:

Or do you have contempt for the wealth of his kindness, forbearance, and patience, and yet do not know that God’s kindness leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4)

The true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. (John 1:9)

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32)

Then Jesus spoke out again, “I am the light of the world." (John 8:12)

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)

Even if God seeks after mankind it is still up to mankind to make the final choice.

…because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)

If God is omniscient he is insightful regarding the heart and mind of man. Through God’s irresistible grace mankind is kindly persuaded into noticing God. But because of mankind’s sinful nature, man will not make the first move so God must seek out man to save him.

M.

[Guest Peace]

I need to read all of this when I have more time...but what I scanned really was great...

[Guest lt]

I'll read this tonight and reply tomorrow, very interesting maureen thanks

Laureltree

[Rodney]

I'll read it on my deathbed and reply from the afterlife... if I have time... promise...

[Jason]

Believe it or not, Brigham Young believed in Election and predestination:

"Many of you, no doubt, have concluded that the doctrine of election and reprobation is true, and you do so with propriety, for it is true; it is a scriptural doctrine. . . . I might enumerate many more instances, and say that they are all right so far as they go in truth. The doctrine of freewill and conditional salvation, the doctrine of free grace and unconditional salvation, the doctrine of foreordination and reprobation, and many more that I have not time to enumerate, can all be fully and satisfactorily proved by the Scriptures, and are true. . . . Every principle, act, and portion of the lives of the children of men that does not tend to this will lead to an eternal dissolution of the identity of the person. . . . I told you that the doctrine of election and reprobation is a true doctrine. It was decreed in the counsels of eternity, long before the foundations of the earth were laid, that he (Joseph Smith) should be the man, in the last dispensation of this world, to bring forth the word of God to the people. . . . He was foreordained in eternity to preside over this last dispensation, as much so as Pharaoh was foreordained to be a wicked man. . . ." (Journal of Discourses 16:374. Calvin’s doctrine of fate, election and reprobation is called “Double Predestination”. In essence it means that before you are born, God determines who is saved and who is damned. Hence the phrase: “Damned if you do, damned if you don’t!

What exactly does reprobation mean? According to the dictionary, “reprobate” means:

1: to condemn as unworthy or evil 2: to foreordain to damnation 3: to refuse to accept : reject. Also: 1 archaic : rejected as not enduring proof or trial : condemned 2 a: foreordained to damnation b: morally abandoned : depraved 3 : Expressing or involving reprobation 4 : of, relating to, or characteristic of a reprobate : corrupt

In other words, some men are foreordained to be one of the elect, while others are foreordained to be condemned as reprobates!

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Rodney@May 28 2004, 07:41 PM

I'll read it on my deathbed and reply from the afterlife... if I have time... promise...

Rodney, I believe some folks drink from the fountain of knowledge, but you just gargle.

[Rodney]

And I believe some people could use a little more gargling and little less swallowing.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Rodney@May 29 2004, 05:21 AM

And I believe some people could use a little more gargling and little less swallowing.

LOL

[Guest Starsky]

I believe that everyone who followed Christ in the pre-eixtence will 'eventually' be able to come to the highest courts of the Celestial Kingdom.

The key here is the word 'eventually'.

1 Timothy 2:4.

There are many places where Christ and His apostles declared that all men will come to the truth, bend the knee and testify that Jesus is the Christ.

John Taylor stated that the very existence of the temples validated the stance that everyone will eventually come to Christ and be His....we are given keys and knowledge to do that very thing for ourselves as well as every one who lived on this earth.

So, I believe that predestination is valid in that all who chose to come to this earth will return and eventually become Celestial beings....

Thus the parable about the penny, and eleven hours when each will receive it in their hour...

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Starsky@May 30 2004, 09:09 AM

I believe that everyone who followed Christ in the pre-eixtence will 'eventually' be able to come to the highest courts of the Celestial Kingdom.

Is this heresy Starsky? After all, everyone ever born did follow Christ in the preexistence. Those who didn't were cast out. I like your theory, but what would be the purpose of the Terrestrial and Telestial? Do you think they are just temporary places until one progresses past them and not ultimate destinations? (and what about the sons of perdition?)

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by curvette+May 31 2004, 08:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ May 31 2004, 08:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@May 30 2004, 09:09 AM

I believe that everyone who followed Christ in the pre-eixtence will 'eventually' be able to come to the highest courts of the Celestial Kingdom.

Is this heresy Starsky? After all, everyone ever born did follow Christ in the preexistence. Those who didn't were cast out. I like your theory, but what would be the purpose of the Terrestrial and Telestial? Do you think they are just temporary places until one progresses past them and not ultimate destinations? (and what about the sons of perdition?)

The purpose of the kingdoms is to allow people to start where they are and work their way up....remember Christ will take the sins of the repentant, but the rest has to be owned and suffered for by ourselves...

until we pay the last farthing....

Then we can move on...or up as the case may be.....John Taylor stated that the keys of the priesthood were actually the tokens given in the temple and they would be what we use to progress from one kingdom to the next until we had reached the highest...

To be at the telestial kingdom only means you didnot accept Christ here on earth....and must come to Him another time and way....and that you must pay for all of your own sins...that can take time....buffetting of Satan...etc...

It isn't herecy...but it isn't preached anymore either..

[lurker]

and that you must pay for all of your own sins...that can take time....buffetting of Satan...etc...

How does a person pay for their own sins? Is this fully possible??

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by lurker@May 31 2004, 10:41 PM

and that you must pay for all of your own sins...that can take time....buffetting of Satan...etc...

How does a person pay for their own sins? Is this fully possible??

Here is some information...

BD Hell

In latter-day revelation hell is spoken of in at least two senses. One is the temporary abode in the spirit world of those who were disobedient in this mortal life. It is between death and the resurrection, and persons who receive the telestial glory will abide there until the last resurrection (D&C 76: 84-85, 106), at which time they will go to the telestial glory. In this sense the Book of Mormon speaks of spiritual death as hell (2 Ne. 9: 10-12). Hell, as thus defined, will have an end, when all the captive spirits have paid the price of their sins and enter into a degree of glory after their resurrection. Statements about an everlasting hell (Hel. 6: 28; Moro. 8: 13) must be interpreted in their proper context in the light of D&C 19: 4-12, which defines eternal and endless punishment.

[Nicodemus]

I read Bruce McConkie reject the concept of predestination- entirely- probably two nights ago from his book Mormon Doctrine.

Does he contradict Brigham Young?

And here is a question I've wondered: do your modern prophets claim that they receive direct and personal revelation? Like once they get appointed to that position God starts appearing and talking to them privately or something? Or does He just sort of lead them so that they know in their heart right from wrong? Or is it general consesus of the apostles discussing an issue? How does Hinckley receive revelation?

And does everything he say qualify as revelation? For Catholics, only when the pope is speaking "out of the chair" is it considered infallible. Is there a time and place where his preaching is infallible, or is everything he says infallible?

Please be patient with me- I'm simply trying to understand. None of those were rhetorical.

[Nicodemus]

BTW, good explanation of Calvinism, Maureen. Well thought out. :)

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Nicodemus@May 31 2004, 11:10 PM

I read Bruce McConkie reject the concept of predestination- entirely- probably two nights ago from his book Mormon Doctrine. 

Does he contradict Brigham Young?

And here is a question I've wondered: do your modern prophets claim that they receive direct and personal revelation?  Like once they get appointed to that position God starts appearing and talking to them privately or something?  Or does He just sort of lead them so that they know in their heart right from wrong?  Or is it general consesus of the apostles discussing an issue?  How does Hinckley receive revelation? 

And does everything he say qualify as revelation?  For Catholics, only when the pope is speaking "out of the chair" is it considered infallible.  Is there a time and place where his preaching is infallible, or is everything he says infallible?

Please be patient with me- I'm simply trying to understand.  None of those were rhetorical.

I think BRM did contradict BY on many occassions.

I just read a book by David B. Haight (an apostle) where he told of his experience in having Christ appear to him.

I believe that the leaders of the church (i.e. apostles and the prophet) do receive visitations as well as inpiration, revelation, and 'feelings' of right and wrong....one of these does not necessarily exclude the others.

The brethren do make all the decisions in unity....there must be a complete concenses.

I believe Pres. Hinckley receives revelation through all the means mentioned above.

Men are men. They do have weaknesses and make mistakes. We are admonished by the leaders to pray about what we receive from them to know if it is true...for ourselves.

But we also must trust that the Lord is mindful of our leaders and is directing them ... And we should all be praying for our leaders.... I believe that not praying for them is where many start to lose their testimonies of the 'callings' of these men...

I say...when in doubt .... follow the brethren.

[Nicodemus]

Thank you for your post.

So if Hinckley says something wrong, and before such is demonstrated he claims that God gave him the revelation, doesn't that prove that he wasn't a true prophet?

He has said many things- including that organic evolution didn't happen. See a recent issue of Ensign magazine. And it DID. Without question. Wouldn't that demonstrate that it's possible all the prophets were hoaxes or made erroneous statements that should not be taken seriously? Might this be the basis for the RLDS church?

And again, thank you for being patient. :) God bless you.

[Nicodemus]

And you know, that is what I've been praying for particularly. I went out into a forest next door in private and prayed sincerely two days ago. I brought my BOM with me. I prayed about it over and over. I asked him to reveal Himself to me so that I might join and serve the church with a clear conscience. Not only am I not getting a burning in the bosom or a personal revelation, I'm getting feelings that the book is dead and has no authority as I read it.

There is nothing that I want more than for a personal revelation so that I could join and serve the church in sincerity and honesty. Am I supposed to pray myself to sleep on a nightly basis or what? I've already been doing that for over a week- I've been searching for at least a month.

And please don't say I'm not sincere when I ask. I want to be convinced and I want God to tell me that the Book of Mormon is true. Yet He refuses to demonstrate such for me. What next?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Nicodemus@May 31 2004, 11:21 PM

Thank you for your post. 

So if Hinckley says something wrong, and before such is demonstrated he claims that God gave him the revelation, doesn't that prove that he wasn't a true prophet? 

He has said many things- including that organic evolution didn't happen.  See a recent issue of Ensign magazine.  And it DID.  Without question.  Wouldn't that demonstrate that it's possible all the prophets were hoaxes or made erroneous statements that should not be taken seriously?  Might this be the basis for the RLDS church?

And again, thank you for being patient.  :)  God bless you.

LOL, President Hinckley will give his opinion as he understands it, on occassion...but it doesn't make him a false prophet, or discredit him in anyway...it just means he is a man who is like every other man, except he has a 'calling'/stewardship that is very great....

Moses made mistakes, Jonah made mistakes....they were still prophets, called by God. The Lord stated that he would call the weak people of the earth to do His work....weak people...foolish people...

Are you familiar with those scriptures in the NT which tell us this?

As for the RLDS I believe there was just a parting of the ways....when it came to who should lead the church. There were many who didn't like Brigham Young....

He had a personality that was seen by some as harsh in comparison to JS and so many just didn't feel that he was the right one to lead the church...they waited to have the son of JS lead them...

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Nicodemus@May 31 2004, 11:26 PM

And you know, that is what I've been praying for particularly.  I went out into a forest next door in private and prayed sincerely two days ago.  I brought my BOM with me.  I prayed about it over and over.  I asked him to reveal Himself to me so that I might join and serve the church with a clear conscience.  Not only am I not getting a burning in the bosom or a personal revelation, I'm getting feelings that the book is dead and has no authority as I read it. 

There is nothing that I want more than for a personal revelation so that I could join and serve the church in sincerity and honesty.  Am I supposed to pray myself to sleep on a nightly basis or what?  I've already been doing that for over a week- I've been searching for at least a month. 

And please don't say I'm not sincere when I ask.  I want to be convinced and I want God to tell me that the Book of Mormon is true.  Yet He refuses to demonstrate such for me.  What next?

I don't doubt for a second that you aren't sincere. Have you heard about the 'way' to pray that gets results?

I learned this later in life....two things that really give power to your prayers are: 1..sacrefice. Giving up something very important to you. 2. Love.

If you pray with your heart filled with the pure love of Christ...(this coming from total repentence and submission to the Lord....as a child...no will or desire but to have the Lord as your master...

you will be filled with charity, the pure love of Christ. There is a scripture which helps me

D&C 121:45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

Having confidence in the presence of God....that is how you must pray and ask...

[Nicodemus]

Please believe me when I say and nothing was different this time either. I have been trying for at least a month. Is it possible that He does not want me to be a part of the church or I am not to serve a purpose within it?

[Guest Starsky]

Well 'nothing' doesn't necessarily mean 'no'.

It can mean....'keep trying'....I am testing your faith....

I can't really tell you what to do. But if you haven't really had a 'communication' from the Lord one way or the other...I would keep trying. :)

[Nicodemus]

Starsky, I'll give it one last shot tonight. I've been receiving on my heart that the reason I feel the urge to join your church is because of ulterior motives- friends in the church, girls I am attracted to, a lust for godly power and eternal sex and worldly pride and recognition. I will arrive at the church tonight and pray in the adjacent field surrounded by woods to pray- again. Last time, it was weird because I saw in my mind's eye me entering the church, at night when it was locked up, and entering the chapel from the view of first person. I knew it was locked, but acted on it, and when I pulled the door it unlocked for me. I prayed in the sanctuary at 3:00 in the morning in complete silence- probably committing illegal trespassing but for pure motives. I don't know whether someone accidentally forgot to lock that one door (since I checked and all the others were locked), or whether it was just jammed and didn't close properly. But I'll see if I can pray one last time.

If not, I hope that you can empathize with my situation. Perhaps LDS converts that sincerely prayed and sought were blessed with knowledge and wisdom and a burning in the bosom. I sought more sincerely than many others for a long time, and received nothing. I will have faith and pray sincerely one final time for as long as needed. After this, please understand that I tried and do not doubt my sincerity. God bless you all in the future.

[Guest Starsky]

I do not doubt your sincerity...even though, by your own admission, your motives and motivation isn't right...

and maybe this is the reason you aren't getting anything....

You know the motivation is supposed to be because you love the Lord and want to please Him....maybe if you changed your heart towards God, instead of your selfish motives...you might receive something significant...life changing...