How God obtained His Godhood

[Guest tomk]

For those of you who believe God was once "like us" -- and Christ was the first to resurrect -- how did God (the Father of Jesus) die, resurrect, and gain His exaltation?

If Heavenly Father did not resurrect, then the only other way I can think of is He went from mortality right into Godhood without dying.

This also seems to fly in the face of a "twinkling of an eye" transformation "without tasting death" for, even though it is but a moment, we still technically DO "die" and then become resurrected in that brief measure of time.

For those of you unfamiliar with the idea of God having been like us once upon a time, see this link:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon

From that talk:

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

[skalenfehl]

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

Where does it say that this refers to Father in Heaven and not Christ? Do you believe that Christ was born of Mary and grew up to be a man? Is he not the God of the Old Testament, the Alpha and Omega, the mighty God, the Everlasting Father as written in Isaiah?

[skalenfehl]

Consider a-train's response to xanmad33 in a similar subject:

http://www.lds.net/forums/christian-beliefs-board/10265-nature-god-13.html#post181455

[Vanhin]

If Heavenly Father did not resurrect, then the only other way I can think of is He went from mortality right into Godhood without dying.

Even if God the Father entered mortality and gained a physical body, He was God prior and after as well. He never transitioned from non-God "into Godhood". Joseph Smith didn't teach that, and neither do the scriptures. On the contrary, the scriptures teach the following about God:

And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?

And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.

Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.

And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all. (Moses 1:3-6)

What we know about the Son of God proves that God can enter mortality, and gain a body, without giving up his Godhood. Jesus Christ laid down his life and took it again (2 Ne. 2:8). If the Son can do that, surely the Father can as well. Jesus taught that the Father is greater than he is (John 14:28).

I believe what is meant is that Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected on this earth (Guide to the Scriptures: Resurrection). God the Father has been bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind long before the actual Atonement of Jesus Christ or his resurrection was performed. Yet by his Only Begotten has he done it all infinitely before and will forever. This means resurrection and exaltation of mankind. (see Moses 1:31-39). the Atonement of Jesus Christ was done once, and for all. It was infinite and eternal, and the last sacrifice (Alma 34:10).

Regards,

Vanhin

[Guest tomk]

Where does it say that this refers to Father in Heaven and not Christ? Do you believe that Christ was born of Mary and grew up to be a man? Is he not the God of the Old Testament, the Alpha and Omega, the mighty God, the Everlasting Father as written in Isaiah?

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

It is no secret that Jesus was a God before He came to earth, was a God while on the earth, and was a God after He resurrected, and is a God NOW and FOREVER.

For Heavenly Father to have once been "just like us" -- that would be a "msytery" or a "secret" for many people to ponder.

To think that the "God" that Joseph Smith was talking about in this discourse was Jesus Christ is to purposefully misunderstand the import of what he was saying, and siphon all the intended meaning from it.

[Guest tomk]

Where does it say that this refers to Father in Heaven and not Christ? Do you believe that Christ was born of Mary and grew up to be a man? Is he not the God of the Old Testament, the Alpha and Omega, the mighty God, the Everlasting Father as written in Isaiah?

I believe all of those things to be true of Jesus Christ.

But this was not referring to Christ, but to Heavenly Father, Elohim.

[Guest tomk]

Consider a-train's response to xanmad33 in a similar subject:

http://www.lds.net/forums/christian-beliefs-board/10265-nature-god-13.html#post181455

This post takes nothing away from my question.

[Guest tomk]

Read this carefully:

God an Exalted Man

I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, [JOSEPH SMITH KNEW THE CONGREGATION WOULD ALREADY BELIEVE SUCH TO BE ACCEPTED FOR JESUS CHRIST, BUT THEY MAY HAVE NOT REALIZED THIS ABOUT ELOHIM] and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. [THIS REFERENCE TO "GOD BEING AN EXALTED MAN" AS BEING THE "GREAT SECRET" MAKES MORE SENSE WHEN IT IS APPLIED TO ELOHIM RATHER THAN JESUS CHRIST] If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, [JOSEPH SMITH IS SAYING ELOHIM WAS NOT ALWAYS ELOHIM] and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

Do you still think Joseph Smith was talking about Jesus Christ in all of this?

[Guest tomk]

Yes, I am sure:

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

[skalenfehl]

Did you catch the part what Joseph Smith said in the thread I marked (continuing the paragraph your quoting)?

...Joseph Smith went on to say: 'What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power--to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do we believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.'

He is talking about John 5. Verse 19 says: 'The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.'

Christ did what His Father heretofore has done. There was no twinkling of an eye. I got ahead of myself when I said it was Christ when I meant to say it was Christ who did what he saw His Father also do.

[Vanhin]

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, [JOSEPH SMITH IS SAYING ELOHIM WAS NOT ALWAYS ELOHIM] and take away the veil, so that you may see.

There is a reason why the entire King Follett Sermon was not included in the new Joseph Smith manual (see LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - The Great Plan of Salvation), or in any other curriculum to be taught as doctrine. It is in part the following:

...Longhand notes of the discourse were made by Willard Richards, Wilford Woodruff, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton. This reprint was taken from the Documentary History of the Church, vol. 6, pages 302–17. That volume notes: “This was not a stenographic report, but a carefully and skillfully prepared one made by these men who were trained in reporting and taking notes. Evidently, there are some imperfections in the report and some thoughts expressed by the Prophet which were not fully rounded out and made complete. …" (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon)

The quote of yours that I included, for example is in direct conflict with actual scripture and cannot be true if the scriptures are true. Supposedly Joseph said. "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea...". We haven't imagined, or supposed such a thing. The prophets have taught us this in the scriptures:

"For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." (Moroni 8)

All things considered, I'm gonna have to side on the scriptures on this one.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Guest tomk]

There is a reason why the entire King Follett Sermon was not included in the new Joseph Smith manual (see LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - The Great Plan of Salvation), or in any other curriculum to be taught as doctrine. It is in part the following:

...Longhand notes of the discourse were made by Willard Richards, Wilford Woodruff, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton. This reprint was taken from the Documentary History of the Church, vol. 6, pages 302–17. That volume notes: “This was not a stenographic report, but a carefully and skillfully prepared one made by these men who were trained in reporting and taking notes. Evidently, there are some imperfections in the report and some thoughts expressed by the Prophet which were not fully rounded out and made complete. …" (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon)

The quote of yours that I included, for example is in direct conflict with actual scripture and cannot be true if the scriptures are true. Supposedly Joseph said. "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea...". We haven't imagined, or supposed such a thing. The prophets have taught us this in the scriptures:

"For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." (Moroni 8)

All things considered, I'm gonna have to side on the scriptures on this one.

Regards,

Vanhin

Well, it's on lds.org in it's present form.

I'm not sure why you think the Church does not believe or teach it -- it is right there for all to see.

[Guest tomk]

There is a reason why the entire King Follett Sermon was not included in the new Joseph Smith manual (see LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - The Great Plan of Salvation), or in any other curriculum to be taught as doctrine. It is in part the following:

...Longhand notes of the discourse were made by Willard Richards, Wilford Woodruff, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton. This reprint was taken from the Documentary History of the Church, vol. 6, pages 302–17. That volume notes: “This was not a stenographic report, but a carefully and skillfully prepared one made by these men who were trained in reporting and taking notes. Evidently, there are some imperfections in the report and some thoughts expressed by the Prophet which were not fully rounded out and made complete. …" (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon)

The quote of yours that I included, for example is in direct conflict with actual scripture and cannot be true if the scriptures are true. Supposedly Joseph said. "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea...". We haven't imagined, or supposed such a thing. The prophets have taught us this in the scriptures:

"For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." (Moroni 8)

All things considered, I'm gonna have to side on the scriptures on this one.

Regards,

Vanhin

In my opinion, you are just worried that a lifetime of incorrect belief about the nature of God is being undone by these ideas.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

If we were to substitute "Jesus Christ" for "God" in the above phrase, it would not make sense:

and that He was once a man like us; yea, that Jesus Christ himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

So "God" is ELOHIM and "Jesus Christ" is JEHOVAH in the above paragraph.

This is the correct interpretation of the phrase:

and that He was once a man like us; yea, that ELOHIM himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as JEHOVAH Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

Surely you must see this!!!!

[skalenfehl]

Did you see my last post in the previous page tom?

[Vanhin]

Well, it's on lds.org in it's present form.

I'm not sure why you think the Church does not believe or teach it -- it is right there for all to see.

Because it's the best record that we have of this sermon. It is a second hand account and does not necessarily represent exactly what Joseph Smith said, but the Church clearly agrees with those parts that have been included in the new manual that we are to use, LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - The Great Plan of Salvation.

The scriptures, however, are to be used as our guide and represent truth, and they make it clear that God has always been God.

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

In my opinion, you are just worried that a lifetime of incorrect belief about the nature of God is being undone by these ideas.

Ok, brother. Let's see... in one hand we have an obscure second hand account of something Joseph Smith might have said that never became scripture, and on the other hand we have the doctrine that Joseph Smith and the Church canonized into scripture. I don't think I'm worried about my belief in the nature of God as taught by the scriptures.

I don't mind talking to you about this, but I'm not sure I can continue if it's going to be like this.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Guest tomk]

Here is another source....please read it carefully. It's impossible to miss:

After We Have Endured to the End

What happens when we have endured to the end in faithful discipleship to Christ? The Lord has said, "If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God" (D&C 14:7). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "If we will continue in God; that is, keep his commandments, worship him and live his truth; then the time will come when we shall be bathed in the fulness of truth, which shall grow brighter and brighter until the perfect day" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: "When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. [YOU CAN'T BECOME SOMETHING YOU ALREADY ARE] Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).

Our Heavenly Father knows our trials, our weaknesses, and our sins. He has compassion and mercy on us. He wants us to succeed even as he did.

Imagine what joy each of us will have when we return to our Heavenly Father if we can say: "Father, I did what you wanted me to do. I have been faithful and have kept your commandments. I am happy to be home again." Then we will hear him say, "Well done; . . . thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord" (Matthew 25:23).

Here is the link to this on LDS.org:

Gospel Principles

[Guest tomk]

Ok, brother. Let's see... in one hand we have an obscure second hand account of something Joseph Smith might have said that never became scripture, and on the other hand we have the doctrine that Joseph Smith and the Church canonized into scripture. I don't think I'm worried about my belief in the nature of God as taught by the scriptures.

I don't mind talking to you about this, but I'm not sure I can continue if it's going to be like this.

Regards,

Vanhin

My apologies, good brother. Just feeling a tad frustrated with your stubbornness in the light of truth I have been presenting to you.

I'm only human. :)

[skalenfehl]

I don't think you've read my last post in the previous thread. It continues the King Follett's sermon where you left it off.

[Vanhin]

Here is another source....please read it carefully. It's impossible to miss:

After We Have Endured to the End

What happens when we have endured to the end in faithful discipleship to Christ? The Lord has said, "If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God" (D&C 14:7). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "If we will continue in God; that is, keep his commandments, worship him and live his truth; then the time will come when we shall be bathed in the fulness of truth, which shall grow brighter and brighter until the perfect day" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: "When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. [YOU CAN'T BECOME SOMETHING YOU ALREADY ARE] Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).

Our Heavenly Father knows our trials, our weaknesses, and our sins. He has compassion and mercy on us. He wants us to succeed even as he did.

Imagine what joy each of us will have when we return to our Heavenly Father if we can say: "Father, I did what you wanted me to do. I have been faithful and have kept your commandments. I am happy to be home again." Then we will hear him say, "Well done; . . . thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord" (Matthew 25:23).

Here is the link to this on LDS.org:

Gospel Principles

Yes, yes, but the part about God not being God at some point...

[Guest tomk]

NOTE THIS:

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).

I bet, with a little digging, I could verify that several prophets and apostles have quoted from "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith" over the years.

So some parts of "TPJS" are okay, and others are not?

[Guest tomk]

I don't think you've read my last post in the previous thread. It continues the King Follett's sermon where you left it off.

I read your last post.

I stand by what I have said.

[skalenfehl]

Yes, but what I said confirms what you said! Christ did what His Father before Him Did. That is how His Father also obtained the resurrection that you initially questioned.

For those of you who believe God was once "like us" -- and Christ was the first to resurrect -- how did God (the Father of Jesus) die, resurrect, and gain His exaltation?

[Guest tomk]

Yes, but what I said confirms what you said! Christ did what His Father before Him Did. That is how His Father also obtained the resurrection that you initially questioned.

Okay.

Sorry, man.

[skalenfehl]

Just to reiterate, if you'll indulge me:

...Joseph Smith went on to say: 'What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power--to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do we believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.'

He is talking about John 5. Verse 19 says: 'The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.'

Meaning the resurrection.