xanmad33

see my above post, I disagree Biblically I agree these are a few ways, and I agree your church is not immune How do you know which is which? First of all, God never says to pray about truth. He says to search the Scriptures to find truth (Acts 17:11; 2 Tim. 3:16). so then if what you feel contradicts the Bible, then what you feel is wrong, is it not? Why are you supposed to pray about the B.O M to see if it is true? The Bible says to study God's word for truth, not pray about it.

this excerpt says it best: James 1:5 was written to those who already were Christians, not to those seeking to become Christians or seeking to find truth in a book. This verse has been taken out of context. The context of James is clear when James 1:1 is read: "James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad, greetings." This is obviously written to those who are Jewish Christians scattered abroad. They already knew the truth of the Word of God. James instructs them to ask for wisdom from God. Wisdom is the proper use of knowledge and truth. We need wisdom to know what to do in certain situations. If you receive counsel that is contrary to the Word of God, then it is obviously false. All counsel must be in agreement with the Bible. Nowhere in God's Word does it instruct us to pray about a book to see if it true. This leads us to the next point.

"The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9). The Holy Spirit Bears witness of Jesus (John 15:26) and Jesus sends the Holy Spirit (John 15:26). If your Jesus is not the same Jesus as the Bible, then couldn't we also conclude that the "spirit" being encountered is not the same "Holy spirit" as in the Bible?

The Bible tells us our hearts are deceptive, and we cannot rely on our "feelings" How do you think Satan will decieve many of "Gods people" as it states in the Bible? Don't you think it would be using our own untrustworthy feelings? Im seriously asking because I imagine his DECEPTION would be so that it might appear to be "good"? Just as you said, you do not know how he reveals himself differently to others, is it possible not everyone who claims a divine revelation in fact actually had a divine revelation? What about all those other religions? They all claim divine revelation too

Please support them

yes we both agree he exists, we both have faith in that, but then again so do Muslims. Thats why Joseph went on to say that our salvation is also dependant on "A correct idea of his character, perfections and attributes"

1835 Doctrine & Covenants (D&C) Joseph Smith further said, 2 Let us here observe, that [three things are necessary, in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation. 3 First, The idea that he actually exists. 4 Secondly , A correct idea of his character, perfections and attributes I agree with these. We both agree on the first one, the second is of paramount importance, and indeed as Joseph stated our very salvation is dependant on.

I did get that impresion from a few posts so I have been trying to understand the real LDS beliefs here... My question is, if you do not have a firm foundation of truth as the Bible claims to be, then how do you know that a prophet is nessessary? How do you know that he speaks the truth? What is he held accountable to? The Word of God? Joseph claims to reconcile his beliefs with the Bible, so obviously he saw it as an important thing to do, and he recognized the Bible's authority. If God himself has revealed this to you, my question is how do you know it is really not what the Bible warns about that false teachings can come from satan disguised as an "angel of light" and further, the teaching in the Bible that we are not to trust our hearts or feelings of truth but rather to test them against the word? I do not mean to offend you with the question, but respectfully, I must ask.

But Skalen, Joseph smith said in the above quote, that "the first principle of the gospel is to know for a certainty the charachter of God"...

This quote From Joseph Smith is what i am trying to investigate, show me from the Bible ...."for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345; Journal of Discourses, 6:3)." He said it can be shown from the Bible, that's all I'm trying to see... If you feel this was taken grossly out of context please feel free to post the full context and where it changes the meaning of this excerpt...

Ok, i understand that part, but then my question becomes, is the Bible the authoratative means to knowing a true prophet?

I am trying to reconcile this belief with the Bible since all LDS people I have spoken with claim they believe in the Bible, and that The Bible supports this. There have been a lot of thigs said, none of them have been the same. Since I believe and you believe that Jesus is of central importance, can we not look together at what the scriptures say about him? I think this is a wonderful conversation, with all parties giving respect and further enlightenment. If you are not enjoying it, remember, you do not have to read it I'm not trying to change your mind Tom, I'm having a conversation about how your mind came to these ultimate conclusions.

Again, this confuses me, some say yes, some say no. I was warned when I posted an excerpt that I am not allowed to post things contrary to the teachings of the LDS church. Can someone please better explain that? I think maybe you did not notice all the links to different subjects?Personally I think it is JUST as important to know the nature of Jesus today, and understand who we worship. After all, our very lives depend on that right Jesus' nature as divine is pertinent to who I worship. Scripture is ALL about him, from the old testament propheseys to the new testament revelation, it is ALL about him, therefore it is in my personal best interest to study everything scripture says about him, because the very fact that it talks the amount it does about WHO Jesus is, in and of itself is a testimony to the importance of that understanding.

This was confusing to me, thank you for clarifying. I have heard repeatedly that it in fact does so now I understand your understanding of God comes from LDS doctrine and NOT the Bible, thank you for clarifying that. Well, xenli, it is certainly your perogative to believe whatever you want I will submit to you this: God never changes, therefore his word would be as true today as it was when written. If the Bible is true and was "breathed upon" by God -as the derivitive word "inspired" means, as it claims, then I believe it's worth a look at what it actually says vs. what something else says. But alas, this is my personal conviction in my spirit to earnestly seek out the truth in all things. Xanali, I respect your religious beliefs, I seek to better understand them as I have from the beginning as to why you believe in the Bible but then in some occasions do not. Some say they believe it as much as the BOM? I admit I am still a little bit confused, but I am confident this conversation will help with that. And I appreciate you taking the time to help me better understand you :) This particular conversation was started to better understand where you get your basic beliefs about God. Some have claimed they are in the Bible, and I just thought at a minimum that claim deserved a good look

Here is some clarificationon that Biblically said much better than I ever could...quoted from "The oneness of God": "John 1 beautifully teaches the concept of God manifest in flesh. In the beginning was the Word (Greek, Logos). The Word was not a separate person or a separate god any more than a man's word is a separate person from him. Rather the Word was the thought, plan, or mind of God. The Word was with God in the beginning and actually was God Himself (John 1:1). The Incarnation existed in the mind of God before the world began. Indeed, in the mind of God the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world (I Peter 1:19-20; Revelation 13:8). In Greek usage, logos can mean the expression or plan as it exists in the mind of the proclaimer - as a play in the mind of a playwright - or it can mean the thought as uttered or otherwise physically expressed - as a play that is enacted on stage. John 1 says the Logos existed in the mind of God from the beginning of time. When the fulness of time was come, God put that plan in action. He put flesh on that plan in the form of the man Jesus Christ. The Logos is God expressed. As John Miller says, the Logos is "God uttering Himself." [10] In fact, TAB translates the last phrase of John 1:1 as, "The Word was God Himself." Flanders and Cresson say, "The Word was God's means of self disclosure" Also, I think this is a better answer to a-trains' question: again from "the oneness of God": "In His divine nature, however, Jesus is a Spirit; for Romans 8:9 speaks of the Spirit of Christ. In His divinity, Jesus was and is omnipresent. For example, in John 3:13 Jesus referred to "the Son of man which is in heaven" even though He was still on earth. His omnipresence explains why He could say in the present tense while on earth, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). In other words, while the fulness of God's character was located in the human body of Jesus, the omnipresent Spirit of Jesus could not be so confined. While Jesus walked this earth as a man, His Spirit was still everywhere at the same time. Jesus is also omniscient; for He could read thoughts (Mark 2:6-12). He knew Nathanael before He met him (John 1:47-50). He knows all things (John 21:17), and all wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Him (Colossians 2:3). Jesus is omnipotent; He has all power, is the head of all principality and power, and is the Almighty (Matthew 28:18; Colossians 2:10; Revelation 1:8). Jesus is immutable and unchanging (Hebrews 13:8). He is also eternal and immortal (Hebrews 1:8-12; Revelation 1:8, 18). "

If the FATHER is spirit that is omnipresent, why would a spirit need to exist physically seperate? .

This verse proves my point skalen here it is another way... "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. " ( John 6:46, NIV) That is describing instances where people have seen God, the son. if we look in the Septuagint version we read the following: "And they saw the place where the God of Israel stood." When I have more time I will look into this further. Moses did not see God's face, read further in that chapter- the use of "face to face" was to put it into human terms. Joshua was also there but he never left the tent, he remained inside while Moses went out to talk with the LORD to be in His presence, but did not look into His face. For God when he passed by Moses covered Moses' face so he would not die. Ex 33:23 "Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen." Since God is omnipresent, He can manifest Himself to different people in different places at any time. Jacob’s “seeing” God as he wrestled with an angel .... He wrestled from night until daybreak with a heavenly being and eventually said: “I have seen God face to face.” He did not see God but instead witnessed a manifestation of God The Hebrew term “face” has often the meaning of “presence.” like in the psalm, where it says, “Enter his presence with singing,” (Ps. 100:2) the original would read literally, “Come before his face with singing”; and “seek his presence continually” (Ps. 105:2) would be “seek his face.” Again you must search scripture in it's entirety to get an answer to these questions. I would reccommend a Strongs Conc. to look up original language whenever possible. Also keep in mind full context, here again the full context shows you he was wrestling with a manifestation of God. I disagree with this Biblically. If this is your belief from the BOM, I respect it but it cannot be reconciled with the Bible.

Right Skalen I meant that, I used the wrong word, I was focused on the other matter. stay focused! In this case it would also be reasonable to argue the point that God is omnipresent and since Jesus was God manifest in the flesh then it would not be difficult for the Spirit (that is omnipresent) of Jesus to speak from heaven and to send a manifestation of His Spirit in the form of a dove

yeah, i agree that will be better :)

I don't see this as concrete proof, certainly not a verse to base a religion on. I personally see it as more of a reason to study the word and see what else the Bible says about the Nature of God. God being omnipresent and omnipotent, could certainly do anything, even encourage the physical manifestation of himself, especially since right after that Jesus went to the desert to be tempted by the devil. This verse says that Stephen saw the "glory of God" and Jesus at the right hand of the father- Not that he actually saw a distinct person that was God. What do you say to the other verses that say that No man has seen the father (John 1:18) such as-- "NO man has seen God at anytime" (John 1:18; I John 4:12). --God "The Father," is a Spirit and as such is invisible (Colossians 1: 15; I Timothy 1:17; Hebrews 11:27). Stephen did not see two Gods... He did not say, "I see Jesus standing beside God." The term, "right hand of God" is from Exodus 15:6-- Moses and the Israelites claimed to have "seen the right hand of God." But God is a Spirit with neither right nor left hand; what they saw was a manifestation of God's power and glory. As an Israelite, Stephen knew what "the right hand of God" meant. He saw the Son of Man in power and glory. I do not see how that verse proves that they are seperate personages? When there is a confusing verse, you must search the rest of scripture to clear up the confusion. The FULL weight of scripture must be applied. There is nowhere in those verses where it states there are two or more gods. These instances, ilbeit difficult to understand, in no way prove a 2 or more god theory. Is that belief based on these scriptures alone? What about all the other scrupture I quoted on the other page? this is interesting though, thanks for discussing your beliefs with me :)

I too love Isaiah :) Let me ask you, did you finish my post in the apology thread? Can you tell me what you disagree with? Or Maybe z-todd can?

In the page I just posted in the Apology thread?

done :)

I posted int the apology thread my beliefs about God/Jesus I'm not going to repost them here because I was warned that they are opposed to LDS teachings therefore they really should't have been posted. Can you clarify the points that are opposed to lds teachings? and why? P.S. I looove to talk religion, I am loving but I am also blunt in my delivery, please do not read my lack of emotion as anything other than my attempt to discuss things without hurting feelings :) Thank you for everyones love and honest answers in posts past, I would love to build friendship with you all through good, honest, thought provoking conversation, thank you! PSS--I would also like to stay on point if we can thanks :)

to leave them in this thread?