xanmad33
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Posts posted by xanmad33
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Do you not view the atonement as eternal covering before and after the event?
Yes, but my example earlier was that prior to the atonement there was temple sacrifice and worship etc. for the remittance of sins--and that believing in God was counted to them as ritcheousness--
When Jesus died, the Bible tells us that he went down to the bowels of the earth and preached to the people who were held there...
There were people who's judgement was being withheld until the atonement, and after he was crucified, he went and he led them out of hell.
I hope that helps...if not I will have to come back later cause I'm exhausted!:)
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So, just so I can clarify: You believe that the ONE and ONLY God was physically born of a mortal woman in Palestine and grew from infancy to manhood on this earth, died, was resurrected with an immortal body of flesh and bone, and ascended to heaven to sit in His throne. Correct?
-a-train
my beliefs about Jesus:
There is only one true God, Who is revealed in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is the Word (Logos) of God. The Word was with God in the beginning, which states His pre-existence as one with God. "By Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth" (Colossians 1:16), therefore making Jesus the Creator. Jesus Christ is the Purpose of God found in all of creation. He is the Father's delight and desire, and the Father is looking for the reflection of His Son in all created things. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. In the beginning, it was the ultimate purpose of God for all things to be summed up in Christ (Ephesians 1:10).
Jesus Christ, Who pre-existed with God in the form of God, emptied Himself to become fully a man that He might be the propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Through His propitiatory sacrifice made on the cross, all who believe in Him and His sacrifice have their sins remitted and are restored to the fellowship with God lost by man's transgression.
Jesus was born of a virgin, by the seed of the Holy Spirit. His virgin birth is a testimony that only the Spirit can beget that which is Spirit. Those of the new creation are not solely of human origin, but are born from above by the Holy Spirit. The resurrection of Jesus' physical body after His crucifixion was literal.
"There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (I Timothy 2:5). All who seek restoration and fellowship with God must go through Jesus and cannot approach God through any person, spirit or doctrine. It is also a supreme presumption for any person or institution to seek to be mediator for others in place of Christ Jesus Himself.
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My next question is why do you think Jesus got baptised?
-Charley
Christ was not in need of Baptism, at all...
He submitted Himself to Baptism as He left His parents and community and claimed God as His Father. It was a huge statement in Jesus' day.
By voluntarily getting baptized He not only offered an example, but He became and fulfilled all righteousness (Matthew 3:15). Also, because He completely emptied Himself and “became like us in all things but sin”, the baptism was a manifestation of His humanity (Phil. 2:7)
Also we need to remember that Christ had not yet died upon the cross, so the salvific action and redemptive work of the Crucifixion and Resurrection had not yet occurred; that being the case, Christ’s remission of our sins through his death, was not yet possible for the folks whom John was baptizing.
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'you are save through faith and baptism.' Think of it like this, If we understand baptism to be an act of faith, then why do we need to write it? It is enough to say that we are saved, or rather exalted, by faith. Because it is implied that baptism would be a part of it.
Does not obedience add up to Salvation? A simple confession of Christ is not going to have any weight with Him will it? I say "I believe and am one of your followers, but I have lied and stolen from my neighbors whom I didn't really love and done other manner of wickedness." Those acts would be contrary to His teachings. Why will He feel a need to let you into the Kingdom of God if you did contrary to what He taught? Salvation is a blessing. There is a law(eternal) required for blessings. We have to abide the law appointed for that blessing to gain the blessing.
No. God KNOWS the heart, you cannot fool him.
With the logic you just presented here, Christ died in vain.
If it was not enough, why did he die?
If salvation was something to be earned, then why did Christ come?
He is the namesake of your church, but what did he do for that honor?
Good works are a result of grace, not a way to achieve it (Gal. 5:22-23 and Eph. 2). One doesn't earn or pay for a gift. That grace however is not a license to sin, those who truly love God will want to please Him.
Salvation comes only by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), it is not based on our righteous works (Titus 3:3-5). If we could attain salvation by obeying the law, then Christ dieath was in vain (Galatians 2:21). We can be righteous before God only on the basis of the righteousness of Christ. Though Christ was without sin, he paid the penalty due our sin so that we would be declared righteous before God (2 Corinthians 5:21, Ephesians 2:1-5).
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Rom. 10:4).
"I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly" (Gal. 2:21).
"He saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to his mercy" (Titus 3:5).
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Baptism is not essential for salvation? - or is the form of baptism is unimportant?
No, I don't believe so. Forgiveness of sins COMES BEFORE the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38). The gift of the Holy Ghost COMES BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-48).
Therefore, forgiveness of sins COMES BEFORE water baptism.
Jn. 3:5. states the whole purpose of the book of John being written, so that we "might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." , Christian baptism is ONLY referred to in the beginning of chapter 4 in this Gospel, with no connection with salvation. John's Gospel de-emphasizes water baptism. Conversely, it emphasizes TRUST IN JESUS ALONE FOR SALVATION.
We should always go with the full weight of scripture in times of confusion, and in it it's clear what is needed for salvation.
If this remains a problem for someone then I would suggest just going ahead and getting baptized, and be done with it!
Run yourself a bath say a prayer and move on...I am baptized, however mine was an act of obedience, not something I could do to save myself. Jesus' work on the cross, did everything for me, that's why he said "it is finished"
That's why Jonh 3:16 tells us that "whosoever believes" shall not perish.
The model of the trinity you worship is also unimportant? - even though sometimes individual members of the Godhead are seen as much less important ?
It is all very important, that's why it's so important to recognize Jesus as God. God sent himself down in the form of a man to relate to us (because it's all about relationship!)
because NOTHING we could ever do would make ourselves worthy to a holy and perfect God.
He gave us the law and we continually broke it, he did that to show us, we can NEVER keep his law! We can never be perfect. We will never be able to do it alone and we truly need him. He gave us the law because we wanted it, we wanted to prove that we could uphold his laws and be made ritcheous by our own works. He gave it to us to show us that nothing we could ever do could unite a HOLY god to sin. Nothing. It is not in his nature, it is impossible. So for us to be united to him for eternity, he made a new covenant and sent himself down in the form of a human, to conquer that which Adam failed.
The Bible says that Jesus came "at the fullness of time", that means we humans were finally ready for a savior, we finally figured out that we could never keep his law. We needed a savior and we were ready to hear what he had to say, we had matured to a point where it was time. It wasn't that God suddenly had to find another way, he knew what he would do all along, he was just waiting for us to mature and to get to a level of understanding where we could learn and grow in him. He is our Father and we are his children, he loves us enough to allow us to learn and grow (a huge part of the Bible is the lesson of reaping and sewing) He loves us enough that through our selfish arrogance he provided a way for us to be redeemed so we may be joined to a Holy God. There simply was no other way, his nature is perfect and it cannot ever be joined with sin.
In his deep love for us and his perfection he formulated his plan before he laid the foundations of the Earth. He crushed the power sin had over us and joined an imperfect mankind to a Holy God through atonement for our sins through the blood of Christ.
What is Faith to you?
Belief in something I cannot see. Belief That God is big enough to have made certain his Word would stand as he promised. and sooo much more
I define it as Christ working within us - yot?
Someone who performs Good works with another belief and a sincere and real relationship with God - must be worshiping a different one? So who is the other God if he produces nothing but good?
Have you sincerely investigated other religions? Why did you reject them?
Yes, I have investigated sincerely other religions, I rejected them for many reasons.
The God of the Bible is unique among all religions. He is the only loving God, who only askes you to love him back. He has given free will to all and pursues each and every one of us.
Good works are good, but they do not grant salvation.
Belief in the one and only true God does.
If you read what his word says, it warns us about things that seem "good"
it tells us of the deceptive nature of satan, and all the cunning and decietful ways he pulls our attention away from God because he knows your salvation is dependant on WHO God is.
I think too much we assume Satan is only working on the people who are obviously "bad" people who are on drugs, or murderers, etc.
But we need to remember, Satan comes disguised as an ANGEL OF LIGHT.
He will trick many of Gods people. We need to understand the very real implications of that.
If you received divine revelation from God in a prayer if it told you a different interpretation of a scripture from that you already knew would you change it?
According to the Bible that's exactly what Satan does. No, I would assume that becasue Satan can come as an "angel of LIGHT!" That I need to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of God and search the scriptures.
There are many people throughout this world who claim just that, that "god" gave them a revelation, some murderers, some cultists, some regular joes. Are those all from God?
How do you really know? What is your litmuss test?
Would experience with God change your religious beliefs if they went against the Bible?
Does your interpretation of scripture change overtime?
I experience God all the time, we talk daily :)
My UNDERSTANDING od scripture is always gaining, because I read his word.
The Bible calls it the LIVING WORD becasue he speaks to us through it. But nothing he would ever say would be in conflict with what he has already said.
How do you know the God you worship is real?
How do you know Paul, Moses and Abraham weren't fakes? - people living in their day didn't automatically recognise them as prophets, they rejected them like you do Joseph Smith or Thomas S Monson
There are many reasons, if you are willing to watch this video, I think you will understand my position better. Its about 45 min long but well worth it! (the first 5 min is a scripture reading,)
The Reason For God Go down to where it says "sermons and studies" and click on the one titled: "Exclusivity: How can there be just one true religion?"
Why do you go with the Jesus story in Christianity and not say the Pagan Mithras, Hindu Krishna, or Jesus the Islamic Prophet? or why go with Jesus at all and not be a Jew???? I just don't understand from your posts why you have so firmly gone with a book where one of the major prophets abandoned a wife and son to die, another killed hundreds of people, one had God kill children, two of the patriachs lied to save themselves and put their wife in danger, another denied Christ three times etc? - when you then go on and insist prophets in my Faith are perfect?
-Charley
If you watch the above video, it actually talks specifically about that.
In short, thats all the more reason to believe
p.s. I never insisted your prophet be perfect, I just asked how you hold him accountable? The prophets of the Bible were all held accountable to his Word.
There are sooo many other good questions and I will be popping in and out as best I can, but I am only one peron and I may not be able to get to everything.
I chose to answer this becasue I think it touches on a lot of other questions posted here for me already.
and a-train, im sorry for offending you, it was late, and I was just feeling like you were here to fight with me, because you kept writing the same thing, and I thought I answered it because to me the differences were obvious. I will take some time later to thouroughly go over your question with the respect it deserves, thanks for your patience, and I really am sorry for my snippy attitude :)
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Mormons believe that Jesus of Nazareth is God, indeed the LORD God, even Yaweh, the Great I Am. Are you saying you agree and that Jehovah did indeed do all those things that I asked about?
-a-train
I guess at this point I'm left wondering if you are just refusing to acknowledge our doctrinal differences with regard to Jesus/God?
I agree that Jesus (God) did those things. Did you read my other post about WHO that person/deity is to each of us
I guess if your basing your claim that we believe the same about Jesus on him dying alone, then I would submit to you that you do not know your own church's teachings on the subject very well.
We believe Jesus is the ONE and ONLY God.
But I will get some facts together from your church's doctrines and teachings on the subject to verify that for you and post them later... as for me, I will be back tomorrow to follow up with any other questions I was unable to adress today, please don't think I am ignoring anybody, however I do have a real life
I know it doesnt seem like it :)
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....QUOTE]
Christians agree on the basic and fundamental foundation of our faith.
We may disagree about other matters of faith but since it is not essential to our salvation, it appears God has allowed it.
Whatever your judgements about me or my claims, I cant help. I would only ask you to hold your own doctrine and absolute truths to the same flame. Look at your own church, look at the division within your own house.
And you just asked me about baptism, I havent had time yet to organize my thoughts, but I will.
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Hmm.. I was unable to find any answers to my questions. Could you be more specific?
Jesus of Nazareth is the Alpha and Omega. Jesus is the beginning and the end, He is all powerful and all knowing. As is mentioned in Psalm 139, the presence of His spirit cannot be escaped, and in Isaiah 40 'there is no searching of His understanding.' He has indeed always existed as God.
Was he not once as we are now?
Was He not born on the earth in the same manner whereby we have been?
Did he not receive a body of flesh and bone through the vessel of the Virgin?
Did He not endure childhood and manhood?
Did He not physically die?
Did He not physically rise from the grave?
Did He not show the prints of the nails in His hands and in His feet to His disciples and did they not feel them?
Did He not say to them: 'Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.'? (Luke 24:39)
Did He not ascend into heaven having been received into the clouds accompanied by angels?
Did He not partake of exaltation?
Did He not so rise to sit enthroned in yonder heavens?
-a-train
Surely you are well read on the subject
But to clarify a little more...
We believe in ONE God, he reveals himself to man in 3 ways, as the father, the son, and the holy spirit. We believe God became man so that He could do the sacrificing instead of us. That is the Jesus of the Bible, and the "trinity" is just the word used to describe the complexity that is God because our small minds could never grasp the totality of who God is...It is completely Biblical.
You are probably focusing on Jesus' death details becasue those are probably the ONLY points we agree on.
here is a good read for you:
" The Jesus of the Bible is the only begotten Son (in the Hebrew "begotten" means heir, not off-spring) and He is God the Son. John 1:1 reads "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." John 1:14 goes onto say "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Clearly the Bible, particularly the Gospel According to John, is telling us the story of Jesus. Jesus is described as the "Word." The "Word" is called God. Not "A God" but God! The Gospel of John then says that this God, known as the "Word" became flesh, real, temporal and tangible and lived among us. We know Jesus did this and this is afterall, the Gospel of Christ according to John. More evidence shows that Jesus called Himself God and the Jews tried to stone him for it, John 10:30-33. "We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” Clearly the Jews understood Jesus' meaning, else why would they attempt to stone Him? Is. 44:6, God of the Old Testiment says "I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last." Rev. 1:18, Jesus says, "I am the Alpha and Omega the First and the Last." Which of the two is lying? They both can't be first and last unless they are one in the same. Is. 43:10 God says, "Before me there were no gods formed, nor will there be after." If Jesus is "A" God, then this scripture would have to be wrong because Jesus' very existence, given the Mormon position that Jesus is A god but not Father God, would be evidence of another God. Therefore, God was wrong that there would be no other gods. And being wrong would make Him imperfect. And if He is imperfect, He is therefore not God. By contrast, if Jesus "IS" God, then this scripture remains true and consistent with his claims of deity in John 10, Rev. 1 and the claims of Isaiah's prophecy of the coming Savior in Is. 9:6 where Isaiah calls him "Wonderful, Counselor, All Mighty God, the Everlasting FATHER, the Prince of Peace." NOTE: This scripture was the basis of Handel's Messiah sung every Christmas by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in Salt Lake City. Finally, only God can forgive sins and yet on several occasions in the gospels we see Jesus forgiving sin. Matt. 9:2, Lk. 7:48.
I hope that clears some confusion
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You leave a lot of your beliefs out of that
I have demonstrated earlier our different beliefs about Jesus, again...
LDS: He is literally our elder brother, born to Heavenly Parents in the Pre-existence. Jesus, Lucifer, angels and humans are all the same species and are brothers and sisters.
Gospel Principles, p. 11, 17, 18
Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ...so he is literally our elder brother.... We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, "Whom shall I send?" ... Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said "Here am I, send me".... Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, "Behold, here am I, send me." ... After hearing both sons speak, Heavenly Father said, "I will send the first." ... Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angry and rebelled.
BIBLE: Jesus is fully God, not a subordinate deity. He eternally exists as God and is our creator.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
John 1:1-4, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Colossians 1:16-17
For by him [Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
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I wonder in my heart, why then isn't the LDS church given more acceptance in the Christian community? If I believe and confess Christ. If I feel the change of conversion and nature inside of me. If I desire forgiveness for my sins and want to take up my cross and follow the Lord and I believe the Bible to be the word of God, then why don't I (being LDS) fit into your above description about what is important for salvation. Why don't our differences fall into the 'things that don't matter for salvation' box? So much so that we inspire 18 pages worth of dialogue only to find out that all that evidence and banter back and forth doesn't really matter for salvation. Forgive my confusion. But I find myself wondering why you would go to such an effort. At the end of the day, I see the differences between your beliefs and mine. But the essentials you listed are all that one needs, then wouldn't I be saved? Maybe you think I would be. Just realized I am making an assumption.
I know no mans heart, and I don't condemn people by telling them they arent going to heaven. I'm not God and only he knows your heart, I can only tell you what his word says and that in it, our basic beliefs about the nature of God and who Jesus was are in direct conflict (which I have laid out in earlier posts.)
Like I said from the beginning, one of my best friends is Mormon :)
and I love him dearly...
Mormons share with Christians some important moral precepts from the Bible. However, I have already pointed out many fundamental and irreconcilable differences between historic, biblical Christianity and Mormonism. While these differences do not keep us from loving one another, we do not consider mormons to be brothers and sisters in Christ. The Bible specifically warns of false prophets who will teach "another gospel" centered around "another Jesus," and witnessed to by "another spirit" (2 Corinthians 11:4,13-15; Galatians 1:6-9).
If someone claimed to be a Mormon but denied all the basic tenets of Mormonism — that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon is true and divinely inspired, that god was once a man who progressed to godhood through keeping the laws and ordinances of the Mormon Church, and that the Mormon Church was divinely established —then the Mormon Church would reject that person’s claim to being a Latter-day Saint. One cannot fairly call oneself a Mormon if one does not believe the fundamental doctrines taught by the Mormon Church.
By the same token, if the Mormon Church does not hold to even the basic biblical truths believed by the greater Christian community down through the ages, how can Christians reasonably be expected to accept Mormonism as authentic Christianity?
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It is also like you mentioned in Acts 8:37. Belief is ultimately a qualificaation. I happened to also notice thatyour examples showed those who believed were also baptized.
Jesus did not say that 'whoever believes but is not baptized shall not be save.' If baptism were necessary for salvation, there are many many significant verses which should be amended to read 'you are saved through faith and baptism.' However it is clear in the Bible that faith in Jesus Christ is what saves a person (Acts 16:30-31; Eph. 2:8-9).
Baptism is a distinct act of obedience, apart from salvation. Baptism with the Spirit places believers into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13), while water baptism merely signifies to others that a person has professed Christ.
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Real quick before I have to go, I agree with that last pargraph except the last sentence. The Salvation is not what we do but who we have. Could you elaborate? thanks
Sorry I didn't read the rest of that post but that caught my eye. I have to go, but I'll be back in a couple of hours. It was fun talking.
He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life.
—1 John 5:12
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You are gonna have to forgive me. I must be on one today. Again, I am simply trying to understand you ..... and perhaps others as well. I am getting from this last line that going to a particular church is not important to salvation. Is that right? But that attending some churches could put your salvation in jepardy. Is that right? Where do you draw that line? Kinda feels like a club. Some churches are in.... some are out.
Salvation is not contingint on a church...I dont believe my salvation would be in jepardy because of a church I attended
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Wow. Thank you for answering. I have asked that question many times and haven't really gotten an answer.
I promise I was not avoiding your question
there's just been so much, i mean were on page 18! :)Good to understand you better. I hope you will forgive me one more question. When you first started posting, I got the impression that Biblical accuracy was important to you.
It seems to me that people within the protestant community allow each other private interpretation just as long as they confess Christ and believe in the bible. Is that right? So, it would be ok for one church to believe baptism was essential and another church to believe that it wasn't. Is that correct? Or if one does believe it, do they then look at the one who doesn't as heretical? Or would that kind of difference be tolerated because coming together on all the details of doctrine are not important? I guess it is confusing for me to determine, from the protestant point of view, what are the essential components to salvation, if baptism and the holy ghost are not part of that list? And if it were not essential, what was Christ's purpose in doing it? I am not trying to argue, I assure you. I am just trying to understand better when one needs to be particular about the bible and when one doesn't.
Details that deal with form, style, practice and procedure are insignificant….those are things like worship styles, baptismal methods, dress-code for church, and so on (and on, and on….). These details don't bother me because I know they are not matters of life and death. There are far too many well-meaning Christians who get caught up in those kinds of details, and yes, I do believe the devil uses those things to crowd our minds and hearts and snuff out the more meaningful stuff.
And then there are the details that really matter….what our “salvation” truly does hang on: our belief and acceptance of the person and work of Jesus Christ. I believe three things matter, and only three: (1) who is Jesus?; (2) what has He done?; and (3) why? The truth of these three “details” are what Satan tries to draw our attention and understanding away from. I will be honest and say, as per my beliefs, which are based solely on God’s revealed Word (both written and incarnate), that I believe in order to be “saved” one must recognize the deity of Christ and accept: their sin and need for a Savior; that Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God, is our only Savior; and that He died, was resurrected, and is alive today.
I believe that the true identity of Christ directly impacts what He did and why (basically, that only God can save us and restore us to a perfect relationship with Him)…
What we’re all about, what we were created for in the first place, is our relationship with God. If we do not know who God is….if we place our faith in our own ideal interpretation of God, rather than His true self….then we’ve missed it completely. We cannot have a relationship with an unknowable God. But the true God is all about relationship, and He wants to be known…intimately. He lovingly invites, or rather pursues, every single one of us.
With regard to your questions about baptism, even though numerous Scriptures speak of the importance of water baptism, adding anything to the work of the cross demeans the sacrifice of the Savior. It implies that His finished work wasn't enough. But the Bible makes clear that we are saved by grace, and grace alone,
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
—Ephesians 2:8-9
Baptism is simply a step of obedience to the Lord following our repentance and confession of sin. Our obedience--water baptism, prayer, good works, fellowship, witnessing, etc.--issues from our faith in Christ. Salvation is not what we do, but Who we have
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Could you tell me which scriptures. I do not ask it for proof, but I want to see what shaped your understanding. Because ours is different.
This is what separates us from other churches(not completely). We believe that only men with authority given from God, can perform ordinances such as Baptism by water and fire(Holy Ghost). Given by laying on of hands by those who already have authority.
In Matthew 28, Jesus commanded believers to baptize new believers in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So, as long as you are a believer in Jesus (a born-again Christian) you can baptize another believer
Baptism is for confession of sins, repentance and forgiveness of sins: Matthew 3:5-6, 11; Mark 1:4-5; Luke 3:3; Acts 2:38; Acts 13:24; Acts 22:16
We are baptized from our old selves into a new person: Romans 6:2-4; Colossians 2:12
Baptism (believe and be saved): Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21
Baptism is for those who believe and receive the Good News: Acts 2:41; Acts 8:12-13; Acts 8:37*; Acts 16:14; Acts 16:32-33; Acts 18:18; Acts 19:3-5
People who baptized others: John the Baptist, Jesus' disciples, and Philip. NOTE: Jesus never baptized anyone.
Since the command to the disciples was to "make disciples, baptizing them..." with no further qualification ever mentioned, one must say, according to scripture, that ANY believer CAN perform the baptism.
There are no restrictions to who, where or when in the Bible except for saying that the one who believes and tells the Good News should baptize those who accept it and believe it for repentance and forgiveness of sins.
There doesn't have to be many witnesses (Acts 8), and there's no time limit (Acts 2:41; Acts 16:25-33). You don't have to come to full knowledge of the truth (Luke 7:29) or else we'd never get baptized since we're constantly learning and growing with Christ (Ephesians 4:15; 2 Peter 3:18).
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Here is a question. Does it bother you at all that throughout Christian churches there is such a wide variety of opinion and practice with regards to baptism? How does one, from your point of view, come to a determination about which one of the Christian churches has this one right? Is there something special about your particular church and is that why you chose it?
And just for the record, your ideas about baptism really sound very close to the LDS view.
No it doesn't, because our salvation is not dependant on it.
The only things that bother me are things in which I feel are contingint on ones eternal salvation, and so I'm really never bothered
...the rest is still important but not so much in the grand scheme of things kwim? We all agree on the essential parts and thats all that matters to me... IMHO the difference in opinion or certain practices are more of a tool the enemy uses to divide us.Of course I believe my church is special
But my personal relationship with God is always number one, no matter what church I happen to attend.
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yes he sure does
It is clear from Scripture that believers even have the privilege to baptize; it was not limited to clergy or church leaders only...
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our pastor
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I'm not sure why you are curious about that but here is my belief as stated by my church:
On Water Baptism
We believe that water baptism should be by immersion and accomplished immediately after commitment to the Lordship of Jesus and His atoning sacrifice for our sin. This ordinance is a personal and public statement of faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ on our behalf, and is a commitment to lay down our lives to be one with Him in His death, burial and resurrection.
On the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
We believe that the "baptism in the Holy Spirit" is an additional impartation which may be subsequent to regeneration (see Acts 8:15-17 and 19:1-6). This baptism is usually accompanied by the gifts of the Spirit, such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc.
We believe that this gift is presently available to all who believe (Acts 2:38-39), but is not essential for salvation or regeneration. While these are accomplished by the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:1-7), there were disciples who did not even know that there was a Holy Spirit. Just as Paul made it a priority to instruct those believers and pray for them to receive this gift, we are committed to doing the same.
The purpose of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is to impart spiritual power to the believer to be a witness (Acts 1:8, 5:32). This baptism is to be distinguished from being filled with the Spirit (Acts 4:31, 7:55, 13:9,52), which can be a special and repeated empowering for specific purposes.
We believe that when Christians truly have been baptized with the Holy Spirit, they should begin to take on His nature and fruit, becoming "helpers" and "comforters", leading others into truth, and testifying of Jesus.
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thank you for that but I'm not lacking personally in faith nor am i too prideful to heed the call of my Lord. I pray all the time and read his word daily.
I was just trying to understand your beliefs and why you believe them better, thats all
thanks for bearing with me :)
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You see, everything you have written is the same speculation you accuse me.
You don't KNOW factually that they HAVE been comprimised. If you look at the evidence between our respective books of faith,
Here is two camparison statements between the reliability of both texts from secular --society:
--"The statement from the National Geographic Society on the Book of Mormon states:
I referred your inquiry to Dr. George Stuart, the Society's staff archaeologist. He told me he knows of no archeological evidence that verifies the history of the early people of the Americas as presented in the Book of Mormon. Although many Mormon sources claim that the Book of Mormon has been substantiated by archeological findings, THIS CLAIM HAS NOT BEEN VERIFIED SCIENTIFICALLY (emphasis added).
--The Smithsonian Institute writes in reference to the Book of Mormon:, "The Smithsonian Institute has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archaeologists see no direct connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book."
--The National Geographic Society states in regard to The Bible:
But archaeologists do indeed find the Bible a valuable reference tool, and have used it many times for geographic relationships, old names, and relative chronologies. On the enclosed list, you will find many articles concerning discoveries verifying events discussed in the Bible (note: more than thirty articles are listed).
--The Smithsonian Institute acknowledges about the Bible:
...much of the Bible, in particular the historical books of the old testament, are as accurate historical documents as any that we have from antiquity and are in fact more accurate than many of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or Greek histories. These Biblical works can and are used as are other ancient documents in archeological works.
At the end of the day, getting into this evidence vs. this evidence will not change your mind or mine
Im past the Biblical controversy, I understand your belief about it and I respect it, though I disagree, I can see the logic.
I have shifted to your position in this argument (even though, I disagree, I cannot prove my case anymore than you can prove yours, thats why there is faith)
So lets say all of it *is* corrupted, cause it's all from man, my real questions have been highlighted in my past couple of posts, so we know the book of Mormon is corrupted and D&C, and basically all man "handled" things
correct?What about all my other questions? What about your prophet? He is a man. How do you know what he says is from God? How do RELIABLY know anything concrete?
I have heard time and time again that you all have had an "experience" with holy spirit.
Did you read my last couple posts about spirits? Can you tell me how you know this is God?
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When you have experienced both God and Satan there is just no comparison- if the God you follow encourages you to be a better person, leads you wisely, causes joy, wants you to have good self esteem and encourages growth in your life he is not Satan - if the course you on is short term gain, euphoria, etc then its not God the pattern your life takes tells you whether God or Satan is guiding you.
-Charley
I would agree with you that there is no comparison, but my question has been, How do you know you have ever experienced God before?
And have you considered what the Bible says about Satan and trusting "feeling in your heart"?
The Bible tells us that satan comes in many forms, "for such men are false apostles [spurious, counterfeits], deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles (special messengers) of Christ... And it is no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light; So it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as ministers of righteousness... 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (Amplified Bible).
Satan is incredibly subtle. We are warned that he uses professing men of God (ministers of righteousness) to deceive the Church. The Bible calls him "the god of this world," and says that he blinds the minds of unbelievers. Jesus called him "the prince of this world," and "the father of lies."
The Scriptures tell us his power is very great in the world. He is a "roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Pet. 5:8). Men are said to be "taken captive by him" (2 Tim. 2:26). Christians are warned against his "devices" (2 Cor. 2:11), and called on to "resist" him (James 4:7).
So if your definition is correct, then what about wiccans? They are good people who say they feel very spiritual, and do good for others becasue they know that the god and goddess will reward them..
Who would you say is guiding them? God? Satan?
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When you have experienced both God and Satan there is just no comparison- if the God you follow encourages you to be a better person, leads you wisely, causes joy, wants you to have good self esteem and encourages growth in your life he is not Satan - if the course you on is short term gain, euphoria, etc then its not God the pattern your life takes tells you whether God or Satan is guiding you.
The Narnia Books had a huge impact on my spirituality along with the Great Divorce - In the Last Battle CS Lewis has a young Calorman who has been worshiping Tash (I guess Satan) all his life - has lived an honourable life, and worshiped the best he could with the knowledge he had. There is also a monkey who has been playing lip service to Aslan (Jesus) and a donkey who was tricked. At the end the monkey is carried off by Tash, but the donkey is given a chance to repent, and the Calorman recognises Aslan and worships him - Aslan says that no good could be done in Tash's name and no evil in Aslan's name.
This brings us back to the woman who Jesus compared to a dog - she recognised Him when many of Israel did not. There is only one God and if you call Him Jehovah, Eloheim, Father, Allah, Krishna, Vishnu, etc as long as he is exhorting you to good that is God. However if you are using those names and being exhorted to evil then that is Satan.
I think it was a talk by Neal A Maxwell that talked about good, better and best choices - good and better are ours, best is the Lords and anything else is from Satan
It really is very simple.
-Charley
So another words it doesnt matter if your Mormon? As long as you are a good person?
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OK I think this is in your own mind right now not one person on this post with the exception of yourself has felt persecuted - if a discussion about religion doesn't get personal then for me its not of God - Religion should be one of the most personal things in a persons life, but noone has got nasty with you, but they have asked you personal questions about your faith.
You have asked many times and people have explained to you why they are LDS its nothing to do with Doctrine or History - because basically they have had divine revelation which most LDS receive regularly - but I am still not sure what sect of Christianity you belong to, how you perceive the trinity what model do you follow - you seem very willing to ask about our faith but without knowing exactly which brand of Christianity you are answering your questions is difficult and one sided. These are the reasons you come across as someone who just wants to attack our Faith - someone like prisonchaplain or DrT who have a lot of respect on the site have that respect because they converse instead of interrogate - I have an understanding of their beliefs, and both are great men with a fantastic spirit and we have a dialogue going
It is very difficult to understand a message on a forum because we don't have intonation and facial expression - Also I am an historian there is no such thing as an unbiased independent document first thing you should learn on a history degree - every document has an agenda and is to some measure propaganda for the person writing it.
-Charley
As far as history, I agree, and thats why I was asking if you have looked at other proofs other than LDS. (which you later answred)
As far as your personal remarks about me, I feel it mostly from you to be honest. But I do not feel persecuted
I was unaware of any questions about my faith that I had not answered? I must have missed that, sorry.
There has been so many things posted that I have been taking my time to read them all and it has taken a couple days, I hope you will forgive me for anything you may have read more into than there actually was.
To your questions: I am undonominational
here is the statement of faith from my church on Jesus:
"There is only one true God, Who is revealed in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is the Word (Logos) of God. The Word was with God in the beginning, which states His pre-existence as one with God. "By Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth" (Colossians 1:16), therefore making Jesus the Creator. Jesus Christ is the Purpose of God found in all of creation. He is the Father's delight and desire, and the Father is looking for the reflection of His Son in all created things. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. In the beginning, it was the ultimate purpose of God for all things to be summed up in Christ (Ephesians 1:10).
Jesus Christ, Who pre-existed with God in the form of God, emptied Himself to become fully a man that He might be the propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Through His propitiatory sacrifice made on the cross, all who believe in Him and His sacrifice have their sins remitted and are restored to the fellowship with God lost by man's transgression.
Jesus was born of a virgin, by the seed of the Holy Spirit. His virgin birth is a testimony that only the Spirit can beget that which is Spirit. Those of the new creation are not solely of human origin, but are born from above by the Holy Spirit. The resurrection of Jesus' physical body after His crucifixion was literal, as will be the resurrection of both the just and the unjust on the Day of Judgment.
"There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (I Timothy 2:5). All who seek restoration and fellowship with God must go through Jesus and cannot approach God through any person, spirit or doctrine. It is also a supreme presumption for any person or institution to seek to be mediator for others in place of Christ Jesus Himself.
anything else you want to know I will be happy to answer.
Run yourself a bath say a prayer and move on...
Some questions for Mormons
in Christian Beliefs Board
Posted
It is IMPOSSIBLE for God to ever stop being God.
What I mean when I say: "emptied himself" and became "fully a man"
is that God became human for a season, he never stopped being God. But he himself halted if you will, his rights and priveledges as God, for a time so he could become our high priest.
He allowed himself to be tempted as we are, suffering as we are, and going through all the strife that we go through.
He subjected himself to that--on purpose, for a purpose, for a season and for a reason. He said "you have seen me you have seen the father" What Jesus did, even though he and the father were one in the same was to become like us in all ways but sin, to conquer it and to redeem us.
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Here is some further clarification of Mormon doctrine on God
--Joseph Smith taught: "I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is...God himself was once as we are now and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.345);
--Joseph Smith continues: "God himself...is a man like unto one of yourselves...God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth...You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves" (Times and Seasons, vol.5, pp.613-614); "Here then is eternal life---to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves...the same as all Gods have done before you...To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.346-347).
--Brigham Young taught: "He [God] ...was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being...It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God was once been a finite being" (Journal of Discourses, vol.7, p.333); "The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself" (Journal of Discourses, vol.3, p.93).
--Here is Joseph Smith's revelation about Mormons attaining to the celestial kingdom: "These are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized...who have received of his fullness, and of his glory...they are gods" (Doctrine and Covenants 76: 51-58).
--James Talmage explains: "We believe in a God who is Himself progressive...whose perfection consists in eternal advancement...a Being who has attained His exalted state"(A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.430, 1952).
--Heber C. Kimbal wrote: "We shall go back to our Father and God, who is connected with one who is still farther back; and this Father is connected with one still farther back, and so on" (Journal of Discourses, vol.5, p.19); "our God is a natural man...where did he get his knowledge from? From his father, just as we get our knowledge from our earthly parents" (Journal of Discourses, vol.8, p.211).
--Orson Pratt wrote: "The Gods who dwell in heaven...were once in a fallen state...they were exalted also, from fallen men to celestial Gods" (The Seer, p.23); "our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; "He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another" (The Seer, p.132).
--Milton R. Hunter wrote: "God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar to that through which we are now passing. He became a God" (The Gospel Through the Ages, p.104);"there was a time when the Deity was much less powerful than He is today...He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood. In other words, He became a God by absolute obedience..." (The Gospel Through the Ages, p.114-115).
--Bruce McConkie states: "God himself, the Father of us all, is a glorious, exalted, immortal, resurrected man" (Mormon Doctrine, p.642-643); "God...is a personal Being, a holy and exalted man...an anthropomorphic entity" (Mormon Doctrine, p.250); "as the Prophet [Joseph Smith] also taught, 'there is a God above the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ'" (Mormon Doctrine, p.322, 1966).
--Joseph Fielding Smith stated: "God is an exalted man...our Father in Heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man...The Prophet [Joseph Smith] taught that our Father had a Father and so on...promises are made to us that we may become like him" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1, p.10-12).
Mormon leaders have continued to teach this doctrine, as is evident by a few quotes from recent President and Prophet Spencer W. Kimball in official LDS periodicals:
-"Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose that 225,000 of you may become gods" (from a speech published in The Ensign, November 1975, 1980).
-"In each of us is the potentiality to become a God" (Tribune, Oct. 7, 1974).
-"Man can transform himself, but he has in him the seeds of Godhood that can grow. He can lift himself by his very bootstraps" (Tribune, Sept. 18, 1974).
-"In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the [LDS] Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is God once was; as God is, man may be'" (James Talmage in The Articles of Faith, a widely circulated LDS doctrinal book).
No matter how hard one tries to read between the lines of scripture, these claims can never be supported.