Vanhin

Just for kicks and giggles, I did a quick search in the online edition of the King James Bible, and it came back: "There were no occurrences of the word TRIUNE found in the Text of the Old and New Testament." I even searched the Nicene Creed with no luck. Not that I will stand in your way of believing in the Triune. That's your right. I'm glad you at least believe in Jesus Christ and in His Atonement. So do I! Welcome friend! Vanhin

I think TomK asked a good question here. I would suggest the following: Faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, brotherly kindness, godliness, charity, humility, and diligence (D&C 4:6). It's easy for us to be like the less-effective example out of the old Missionary Guide, where you go to the eye doctor and tell him that you are having trouble seeing, and the first thing he does is give you his glasses and says "try these, they work for me". It's better to help others learn for themselves these things. We can help, since we have learned many things already, but everyone must ultimately learn the truth themselves, by little steps of faith. I think DigitalShadow is looking to have a reasonable conversation about this topic. He is interested in what we believe, and how we view faith and the spiritual experience, and he's also interested in the larger topic surrounding the claims of different religious traditions and their subjective experience. I have really enjoyed this thread, and have even learned things myself while pondering these things. I think we should reason with him, and try to understand where he is coming from. Even the Lord is not above that: And now come, saith the Lord, by the Spirit, unto the elders of his church, and let us reason together, that ye may understand; Let us reason even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face. Now, when a man reasoneth he is understood of man, because he reasoneth as a man; even so will I, the Lord, reason with you that you may understand. (D&C 50:10-12) Kind Regards, Vanhin

You'll get no argument from me on that point! Even before He was born into mortality, he was like unto God (Abr. 3:24), and he was God, the creator of heaven and the earth, and all things that are in them. And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary. (Mosiah 3:8) Of all the children of God, he is the only one begotten in the flesh. He will forever have the emblems on his hands and feet of the Atonement, he is the Redeemer of all mankind, and because of him we may become joint heirs with him in the eternal worlds to come. He is who has made the work of the Father possible for generations past and generations to come, which work is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39). That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:24) When I shall see Him again, I will kneel at his feet and bathe them in my tears, for He is my Lord and my God, and I will forever worship Him like I do our Father. Sincerely, Vanhin

Women have been, and are involved in the ministry of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Of course they have the capacity. Though they do not themselves posess the priesthood, whenever a Bishop lays his hands upon the head a sister who is to serve as a Sunday school teacher, for instance, he sets her apart by priesthood authority to perform that calling. She goes forth and performs her calling with priesthood authority until she is released. The same is true for Sister missionaries, for example. They [sisters] are called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those in authority, to preach the Gospel, but not to administer in the ordinances thereof (Articles of Faith 1:5). Vanhin

It's a miracle! We don't know how it happened, but it did, and God the Father is the literal Father of Jesus Christ. But it shouldn't seem that hard for us to think that God could accomplish such a thing, considering we mere mortals have been able to figure out artificial insemination, for instance. Even though a doctor may have performed the procedure, there's no confusion about who the father is, right? But we really don't know how it happened. We know Mary was a virgin, and we know Jesus Christ is both the spirit Son and the physical Son of God the Father; thus His Only Begotten in the flesh. Vanhin

It's a miracle. Nevertheless, He is the literal Son of God, and Mary was a virgin when he was born. Vanhin

Well there certainly is a enough evidence to support that faith is used as a religious escape claus by some, I won't deny that. But there are many who are witnesses to the power of faith and the power of God; enough that any just court of law would not be able to down right disregard the testimonies. I'm one of those. I am a witness to God's hand in my life. I have learned that He does answer our prayers, 100%. If He hasn't already, He will answer your humble prayers as well. Sometimes the answer is no, sometimes it's yes. At other times the answer seems silent, and we think we're not answered, only later to find out that He answered it in his own way and in his own time. Because life is partly a time for us to learn through our own experience, God often allows us to struggle through the answer before he confirms it. That way we really learn it. Be thankful for those times. They are the times that really stretch us and bring us closer to Him. Sometimes our pride is a great stumbling block to receiving answers to prayers. No wonder the Lord taught that we must humble ourselves, like little children. Those are the ones who find that narrow way that we've spoken about. And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things. And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. (3 Nephi 11:37-38) Being humble means that we are willing to accept the answer, even if it's not the one we wanted. And that can be a challenge, believe me I know. Anyway, just some some more things to think about along your journey, brother. Sincerely, Vanhin

One reason we must live by faith, is because it is a measure of protection that a loving Heavenly Father has given us while in this imperfect and mortal state. A mother has four children. Let's say that she set some cookies on the dining room table for guests that are coming over later, and only three of her children were around to hear her say, "Do not touch the cookies, they are for guests." A few minutes later, while the mother was out of the room, the fourth child comes in and sees the cookies on the table. He grabs one right away and eats it and walks away. Later, one of the other children sneaks in and steals a cookie. When the mother returns, she notices that two cookies are missing. She calls the children into the dining room, and inquires of them who took the cookies. When she finds out that the one child who did not know that they were off limits ate one, she tells him that he should have asked first before taking a cookie. He says he is sorry and she has mercy on him. But the other child, who knew they were off limits, is more severely punished. He has to wash the dishes after the guests are gone, because he knew it was wrong to take a cookie. Heavenly Father knew that we would make mistakes and act contrary to his will because of the imperfect and mortal state we would enter. If we had retained our former knowledge from the pre-mortal existence, we would be under greater condemnation when we sinned. The veil of forgetfulness and having to live by faith allows us a little buffer, because we start out not having a perfect knowledge. However, as we gain the necessary knowledge to save us from this condition, we are more accountable for our actions. That's why blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is so serious. If it wasn't for the need to live by faith, we would all be Sons of Perdition by now... But there's more to faith then just that. That's just one example. Sincerely, Vanhin

DS, I can totally understand where you are coming from on this. I see no reason to badger you until you believe. To me you have been very reasonable, and willing to give religion a chance. This discussion so far is evidence of that. It's totally reasonable to be unsure of the existence of God, or the right religion, with so much confusion and variety of beliefs in the world, all backed by subjective religious experience. Sincerely, Vanhin

But what about the poor little soy beans?

Well, that is good. It is probably wise not to rule such a thing out, just in case anyway... :) I would say, that finding the answer to that question is most important at this juncture. It's going to be pretty difficult to have faith in any religious tradition without first believing in a God to begin with. If we don't believe for sure that there is a God, then believing that He would speak to us will prove to be problematic; seeing that faith is a requirement for receiving any kind of witness from Him. What we claim is that there is a God, and that he is very much interested in making his will known to us. He has, throughout time, called righteous men as prophets. The prophets know from personal firsthand experience that there is a God. Take Joseph Smith, for instance. He claimed that two glorious Personages appeared to him and spoke to him. One of them called him by name, pointed to the other, and said "This is my beloved Son. Hear him!" (Joseph Smith—History 1). God reveals his will to the prophet, and commands him to teach it to others. Prophets become witnesses of the reality of God, and his message to us. Others, upon hearing the message, can know that it is true. But it takes and act of faith. Prayer, is such and act. Now because you haven't completely ruled out the possibility of the existence of God, if you can allow that to become even a desire to have faith, then you have something to work with. Take a few minutes, when you have some time to ponder these things, and when you are ready to do this, and try another experiment. Here is the experiment. Read carefully the following words of a missionary named Aaron from the Book of Mormon, Alma 22:7-26 . Ponder the story for a bit, and then simply kneel at your bedside (or where ever), and do the most preposterous thing... pray. Start out by saying, "Dear Heavenly Father", and then pour out your soul to him. Ask him if he really exists. When you are done, close in "...the name of Jesus Christ, amen.". If you will have just a particle of faith, and you sincerely ask, God will make himself known to you. You don't need a priest, or a missionary, or a prophet to convince you of it. God himself will answer your humble prayer. I can promise you that. Now, it's up to you if you will try the experiment. We claim that there is no other way to gain this kind of knowledge, so if you are looking for some other kind of proof, you won't find it until it's too late. So, give it a shot. What can it really hurt? Kind regards, Vanhin

I believe you do see my point. I do appreciate you taking the time to consider the things I have written. I like your honesty in pointing out the possibility that it died because you didn't nourish it. If a plant dies because it wasn't nourished, you can't say that it was a bad seed, or a bad plant. But if it grows, and we nourish it, then it's a good seed. I encourage you to try again, this time with a determination to nourish it. It will bear fruit. Then you will know the truth like I do. For a wise reason, that we may not always understand, this is how God has designed it to work. I totally see what you mean. This whole world is full of people who claim that they are guided by divine means, yet often they are each led to different conclusions. No doubt there are even people of LDS faith, who feel that they are guided to believe a variety of false things. Consider the words of Jesus Christ: Enter ye in at the strait gate; for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, which leadeth to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat; Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them.(3 Ne. 14:13-20) Do you believe there is a God? Sincerely, Vanhin

Nor did it apply to countless others who have entered exaltation from the innumerable worlds that the Father has created by his Son, before ours, according to the book of Moses. Throughout all the eternities, God the Father is God, and so is the Son, if the scriptures are true. On a different note, our world seems to be pretty special, seeing that the Savior of all mankind was born here, and performed the Atonement here. Vanhin

Right!

Yes, yes, but the part about God not being God at some point...

Ok, brother. Let's see... in one hand we have an obscure second hand account of something Joseph Smith might have said that never became scripture, and on the other hand we have the doctrine that Joseph Smith and the Church canonized into scripture. I don't think I'm worried about my belief in the nature of God as taught by the scriptures. I don't mind talking to you about this, but I'm not sure I can continue if it's going to be like this. Regards, Vanhin

Because it's the best record that we have of this sermon. It is a second hand account and does not necessarily represent exactly what Joseph Smith said, but the Church clearly agrees with those parts that have been included in the new manual that we are to use, LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - The Great Plan of Salvation. The scriptures, however, are to be used as our guide and represent truth, and they make it clear that God has always been God. Vanhin

Some LDS say all kinds of things. This Latter-day Saint worships the Father in spirit and truth, and I also worship the Son. I have no difficulty with this, because ultimately it is the will of the Father, and the Son is our Advocate with the Father. So, it's monotheism to me. They are the One True God. Here's what the late Gordon B. Hinckley recently taught: "He is the Savior and the Redeemer of the world. I believe in Him. I declare His divinity without equivocation or compromise. I love Him. I speak His name in reverence and wonder. I worship Him as I worship His Father, in spirit and in truth. I thank Him and kneel before His wounded feet and hands and side, amazed at the love He offers me." (LDS.org - Ensign Article - In These Three I Believe) Those were the consequences of their transgression, yes, but they were also blessings. To experience mortality is the path to happiness. Had they not partaken, they would have lived forever in a state of innocence, never knowing good, because they knew no evil, and they would not have been able to fulfill God's other commandment, to multiply and replenish the earth. They had to be the ones to make the choice to usher in mortality. God could not make that choice for them, so he gave them a choice, and he allowed Satan to temp them, and they freely chose. And I agree with you on this point. :) Sincerely, Vanhin

There is a reason why the entire King Follett Sermon was not included in the new Joseph Smith manual (see LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - The Great Plan of Salvation), or in any other curriculum to be taught as doctrine. It is in part the following: ...Longhand notes of the discourse were made by Willard Richards, Wilford Woodruff, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton. This reprint was taken from the Documentary History of the Church, vol. 6, pages 302–17. That volume notes: “This was not a stenographic report, but a carefully and skillfully prepared one made by these men who were trained in reporting and taking notes. Evidently, there are some imperfections in the report and some thoughts expressed by the Prophet which were not fully rounded out and made complete. …" (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon) The quote of yours that I included, for example is in direct conflict with actual scripture and cannot be true if the scriptures are true. Supposedly Joseph said. "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea...". We haven't imagined, or supposed such a thing. The prophets have taught us this in the scriptures: "For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." (Moroni 8) All things considered, I'm gonna have to side on the scriptures on this one. Regards, Vanhin

Yes and I think you were right, about us being saviors. The temple work for the dead, that you cited, is a good example of that. Maybe it was the capitalization of "Saviors" that seemed a little weird to me too, but after reading the whole post I saw what you meant. I'm sure others will as well. Sincerely, Vanhin

Even if God the Father entered mortality and gained a physical body, He was God prior and after as well. He never transitioned from non-God "into Godhood". Joseph Smith didn't teach that, and neither do the scriptures. On the contrary, the scriptures teach the following about God: And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless? And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease. Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth. And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all. (Moses 1:3-6) What we know about the Son of God proves that God can enter mortality, and gain a body, without giving up his Godhood. Jesus Christ laid down his life and took it again (2 Ne. 2:8). If the Son can do that, surely the Father can as well. Jesus taught that the Father is greater than he is (John 14:28). I believe what is meant is that Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected on this earth (Guide to the Scriptures: Resurrection). God the Father has been bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind long before the actual Atonement of Jesus Christ or his resurrection was performed. Yet by his Only Begotten has he done it all infinitely before and will forever. This means resurrection and exaltation of mankind. (see Moses 1:31-39). the Atonement of Jesus Christ was done once, and for all. It was infinite and eternal, and the last sacrifice (Alma 34:10). Regards, Vanhin

Well, I do see what you are saying, and under the proper guidance, a picture like that could teach correct principle. Your two sets of three statements are true, of course. What it is traditionally used to illustrate is: God is the Father God is the Son God is the Holy Ghost Father is not the Son Son is not the Holy Ghost Holy Ghost is not the Father Meaning one entity (God) with three distinct and separate manifestations. Which is nonsense. Regards, Vanhin

Personage just seems more poetic. God is, after all, a perfect being, and has always been God. I'm not sure you understand LDS teaching, but that's probably not your fault. Many well intending members of the Church have speculated that there have been generations and generations of Gods (with a capital G), perhaps each with an Only Begotten. But the LDS scriptures do not support this. God the Father, is the Man of Holiness. He is the Father of all mankind, and his Only Begotten, is the Christ. They have always existed, and have always been the One True God. The scriptures do call the children of God, gods (lower "g"), because we are His offspring and co-eternal with Him, but make no mistake, we will ever worship the Father and the Son as God. The Godhead is one. This means they move in lockstep. You will never have the Son teach anything but the doctrine of the Father, and the same with the Holy Ghost. They are one God in purpose and doctrine. No mystery there. I worship both the Father and the Son in Spirit and truth. To worship the Son is to worship the Father, because of the Atonement. The Son of God, who himself has always been God, humbled himself to the will of the Father of all mankind, and drunk of that bitter cup for the salvation of all mankind. Thus becoming both the Father and the Son. He is our advocate with the Father. It is He who created the heavens and the earth under the direction of the Father. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is Jehovah. He is who reveals the will of the Father to the prophets. Even when both the Father and the Son appear, the Father usually gives the mic to Jesus, and says "hear him". When you hear the Son speak, or you read his words, they are the words of the Father. They are in perfect harmony. Not sure I follow you. How does the scriptural fact that mankind is the offspring of God diminish God? On the contrary, it glorifies his name! The Great God of Heaven loves his children so much that he wants to give it all to us. He wants us to be joint heirs with the Son. Lost me here too. Adam and Eve are heroes and took the necessary step that ushered in mortality on our planet. Because of our first parents, the children of God could enter mortality to gain tabernacles of flesh and learn by our own experience the difference between good and evil. Right on. Let's not be angry about these things. That wouldn't be very helpful. It's not very useful for us to go back and forth on these things either. We know what we know about the purpose of life, and the destiny of mankind because God himself has revealed it to us through his prophets, and has revealed to us that this knowledge is true. Unless you gain this understanding yourself, it will be hard for you to ever accept these things. Sincerely, Vanhin

Though I appreciate the point you are trying to make, I don't think it's a big secret how our mortal tabernacles are created. I don't know about some of the weird things even members talk about, but my wife and I have been personal witnesses and participants in creating four mortal bodies for spirit children of God to dwell in, and out of the dust of this earth no less... Truly miraculous! Regards, Vanhin

No, I don't think so. He is the Jesus of Nazareth as read about in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon (1 Ne. 11:13) for all Christians. At issue is the nature of the Godhead. The following is the result of the wisdom of man: The scriptures and modern revelation confirm that Jesus Christ is actually the Son of God, and he has a Father, who is the Supreme Ruler of the universe, just like Jesus taught. The Holy Ghost is also a separate personage, and sent by the Father. They are perfectly unified in purpose and doctrine, thus they constitute the God of Heaven, but are not the same being. God is not an unknowable, mysterious, or unapproachable being. Nor is He an impossible being. We are the same species as God is, and were truly created in his image. We are all His children. Regards, Vanhin