Fiannan

Reminds me of a joke I once heard. God decides to take a break and spend some time in Miami. He sits on a park bench, dressed in conventional attire, and looks out over the beautiful beach scene. Soon a couple of middle-aged Jewish women come over and sit down and start talking. Jewish woman #1: "What's the world coming to? My son always was a good Jewish boy. He went to temple all the time, loved to read his torah, and I thought he'd someday become a rabbi. Then he went off to college and within a year announces that he's become a Christian!!! Jewish woman #2: "Yes, I know what you mean. My son started dating a Chrisian girl when he was in medical school. Next thing you know he goes and announces they are engaged and he's decided to become a Christian as well!!! Then God replies: "I know exactly what you women are going through. I have a son and when I sent Him on a religious mission to Israel of all places..." Just something on perspectives.:)

I am inclined to agree. Anyone here ever spent much time in China? O doubt they even have a category called "aspergers" since the culture thrives on the kind of meticulous orgnaization, dedication to rules, and desire for detail and structure. Oh, by the way, the Chinese only have one university that offers any program in psychology so I think we see how they prioritize things. I really have a hard time saying aspergers is a disorder. The only problem it might cause is in one's relationship to others as well as trying to understand the self. One of the key themes in the series "Dexter" is Dexter Morgan trying to understand how to fit in -- and while the show seems to present this crime fighter as a psychopath the characteristics written into the character are much more in line with aspergers. ADHD -- in an era that demands creativity, the ability to move from one project to another (multitasking) and even unconventional ways of thinking we might consider the blessings of this "disorder" rather than it being seen as a problem. As for other "disorders" even something like psychopathic behavior has its merits. Many of our best emergency room doctors, lawyers and CEOs are what is known as secondary psychopaths. And it would be very hard to believe one can make it far in American politics today without being a secondary charismatic psychopath. There are reasons God made people different.

I would liken my stance on using drugs to change behavior in kids with the morality of forcing your kid to drink beer. Let's say you and your 6 year old are lost in the desert. It's your third day out and you are fearing for your survival. Then you meet up with a group of people having a keger. The only liquid they have is beer and nobody plans on driving home (thus giving you a ride) until at least 8 hours later. Is it moral to have your child drink a couple bottles of beer? I'd say yes. Then let's say you are at the beach and run out of soda or water. You and your child are both thirsty and your friend offers your child a beer. Is that morally justifiable to use in that case? I would say not. That's how I feel about using drugs. If I had a child suffering from cancer I'd be the first to find him some marijuana if it helped them. Now we have a push-pull situation involving a "disease" (ADHD) that is diagnoses with pensil and paper questionaires and observations. Both are highly subjective tests and thank goodness that's not the way we diagnose other diseases. Pretend we have a 6 year old in a traditional classroom. The teacher asks a question about deserts and the child raises their hand and starts asking what kinds of lichen from arid areas could grow on Mars. If the teacher has received information that the kid is talented and gifted she will respond to the question positively. If not, she may feel he has trouble staying on task. Let's say the kid is not listed in TAG and continues to make these sorts of associations. He raises his hand every time the teacher asks a question and eventually sees that she no longer calls on him. He then gets distracted and goes into his own little projects at his desk. This is frustrating for him and eventually the teacher gets cross with him and demands he stays more focused. He responds in an angry tone that he'll do as he pleases. Guess the kid is on his way to be tested, isn't he?

Margin, perhaps you have assigned me into the category of being totally against using medication which is not my position at all. My position is that we are doping kids today at an alarming rate. Why? Kid's physiology is no different than it was 10 or 20 years ago. What is occuring is that we have created criteria that encourages (insures) that a large segment of our population is going to be listed as having some sort of disorder. Since we have also become a drug dependent society we assume then that taking drugs will solve problems. So now we have everyone trying to explain behavior that is perfectly natural in human expression as falling into a "disorder" category and then medicating it. ADHD is not only too broad in it's criteria, it's also culturally dependent -- if you are a set of quiet parents and you have a loud and active kid you are more likely to think your kid has something wrong with it than if you and your spouce are loud and active and give birth to children with the same pattern. If you live in a society that promotes quietness (even soem people mistakingly thinking quietness is a form of reverence .. pure hogwash) then if your kids don't share the same view then maybe it's easier to think something is wrong with them. Then you get 'em tested and just going to the doctor with a "problem" pre-disposes the doctor to feel something must be wrong -- just like when many doctors give patients antibiotics when they have viral infections...I mean, the patient is here and maybe the antibiotics won't hurt or anything. Remember, doctors have been criticized for this practice for quite some time now. So when I read of some school districts where 20% or more of the boys in 1st. grade are on ritalin I have to question what we are doing. As the post illustrates that I praised from applepansy what in the world is a doctor thinking when giving a 2 year old anti-depressants? So if I saw the judicious use of mind-altering medications as we see in most of Europe, where evaluation of any and all disorders is much more strict, then I would see no problem. Of course, in those countries you have government regulation of major drug companies so they are kept under check. In the USA you have a profit-driven drug industry that makes money if more and more doctors are prescribing their drugs -- and representatives from drug companies that make used car salesmen seem shy and restrained visiting doctors constantly praising the virtues of their medications. Not a good situation.

Making Christmas into an orgy of consumerism (when it's supposed to be about celebrating Jesus) makes as much sense as serving a big ham for Christmas dinner since Jesus never in his life on earth partook of pork.

Fid she do Underworld 1 and 2? Number 1 was okay but I thought number 2 was a pretty good vampire flick.

No reply necessary here. Just wanted to emphasize how well thought out and insightful applepansy's post is. And thanks for the reference to your watching the Frontline special that I originally posted. It's rare in American media to find truly thought-provoking news media and investigative reporting (Frontline is pretty good as is anything produced by John Stossel) but the specials Frontline has done on this issue are fantastic.

First, the article on brain scans said that the research was preliminary and they could not really extrapolate anything from what this particular study showed. Second, other studies on things like blood flow, while getting attention on the Dr. Phil show, are likewise not proven to show anything useful. Other points that have to be considered is that the brain is an ever-changing organ. Start learning a different language and it changes shap and weight distribution. Go into a stressful situation and chemical and structural changes occur. Heck, start a relationship with someone and/or start having sex with someone and the brain changes dramatically. Get pregnant and huge changes occur. Point is, the brain is like your absomin in a way. Start out with a flat abdomin and then stop exercising or start eating more (or be deprived of sleep) and you will get beer gut in time. Resume healthy living and you can go back to the original look. We don't usually think of the brain as ever-changing because the fleshy part is covered by a cranium. So there are other variables that may be involved here. And even if there wre differences that still does not warrent classifying people as different based on some behavioral characteristics that in one environment may lead to stress but in another environment may be highly beneficial for survival.

No it is not well documented. Hey, people still debate on disorders that are more easily classified (like if borderline personality disorder may actually be Asperger's but expressed differently in women as opposed to men. Then there are debates on what constitutes a psychopath -- even that may overlap at times with Aspergers. But now we have ADHD (and as the Frontline documentary indicates a rush to diagnose bi-polar in kids too young for kindergarten). The diagnosis for ADHD has skyrocketed yet there is serious debate over the validity of diagnostic measures, whether there is an organic basis for it, or if it does exist, the number of kids given false diagnosis for it. Then we have the debate as to how to treat it.

Sounds like your Wikipedia article's way of saying they don't have a clue as to what constitutes ADHD or how people allegedly with the condition differ from people without.

Most of the so-called Russian mafia is not even ethnically Russian. Just wanted to clarrify that.

Better run when they start eating people. The last straw for the Nephites losing devine intervention to protect them was when they started eating Lamanite virgins. Then again, there are things in modern society that come close -- yet they occur with much less statistical frequency in Mormon communities.

Because it illustrates the entire concept of genetics so well -- hey, be careful with the Christmas thing, you might consider the entire process involved in the conception of Jesus. Given what we know of His conception... That's a topic most Christians and Muslims don't want to think about for obvious reasons. It all goes back to the genes. And the reason I brought it up was because there are people who actually consider not having children since they don't want to pass on some condition that in reality may not even warrent being classified as abnormal. And often people with these "conditions" will say it seems to run in their family -- of course, personality traits do run in families but to say the trait is negative? Again, if these were totally accepted conditions you would think that geneticists and fertility doctors would not want to pass them on to prospective parents who are looking for totally healthy offspring, wouldn't you? They screen out people with diabetes, bad eyesight, recognized mental illnesses so why not these "new" conditions that have been caught up in the modern collective psychie?

Depression yes. ADD/ADHD are not mental illnesses even if you accept there is such a thing (there is no concensus in the mental health community in regards to classification or if you can actually list these "conditions" as true disorders). Strange, if you fill out a questionare dealing with your mental health history (at a doctor's office or even if you are a donor) there doesn't seem to be any box for ADD/ADHD -- or I have not seen any. On that last part I have a great enterest in genetics and also in the modern process of egg and sperm donation. I have seen a few forms for donors and one would think if ADD/ADHD were truly a condition recognized by doctors (especially those involved in creating babies) they would not be letting people who might have this condition go in and father (or mother) dozens of children, now would they? They seem to screen for lots of other things after all and not allow donors with those negative characteristics.

So boys who went through traditional Catholic schools are just psych cases? Are you saying that our fast evolving dope-based society offers real hope for the future? And people think the Amish and the FLDS are missing out on the wonders of modern society.

Sure is more natural than mind-altering drugs, wound't you say? Also, one wonders the cost effectiveness between a Catholic nun with a ruler teaching 50 boys in the 2nd. grade or the cost of having to keep up drug company sales people, doctors and multi-billion dollar prescription drug industry. I'd rather have the nun.

And one wonders what he would say about the society's obsession with prescription drugs. Heck, compare advertising now and just a decade ago -- all kinds of drugs are being pushed on TV commercials. Makes one yearn for the controls over that industry put into effect in countries in Europe. Same processes, different environment of sorts. We just disguize and hide from our primitive heritage. What's the difference between a "power tie" and a penal shaft that men wear in many islands of the south Pacific? What's the difference between to high school teams fighting it out and when tribes come together for contests of bravery? Isn't dancing merely a display of physical power and dexterity to demonstrate attractiveness in mating? Ancietn Celtic women stripped naked and formed lines in the village centers and urged their warriors to bring back the heads of their enemies when the men went off to battle -- now we have cheerleaders dressed in skimpy outfits. And then we could discuss predatory capitalism. Unless you want to start manipulating the genes of humans you are stuck with a hunter/predator who has been given the skills to survive in this cold dark terrestrial world. It's up to us to understand the beast and not try to medicate him or her into submission to an artificial set of behavioral standsards.

Well, Brigham Young condemned mothers who gave their children alcohol to get them to be quiet during sacrament meeting. Back in the 1980s I lived in a ward where the kids were really quiet -- I found out later that the standard practice mothers used there was to give their kids cough medicine with alcohol in it. Hey, it worked! Point is, I think it's dangerous (extremely dangerous) to try to create an artificial standard for what is "normal" and then prescribe treatment for the characteristics that fall outside that norm. Why not give growth hormone to people who are short like Tom Cruise or Nickolas Sarkozi? Why not give hormones to people who are too tall to stop them from growing? If you accept that God created mankind then you have to accept that he gave people the traits they needed to survive and spread these blessings across the human race in order for it to function. If you accept evolution then you have to accept that any trait that seems as common as the misdiagnosed ADHD has to have been there to help us survive as a species. Our bodies and minds are designed to eat when food is available so when food sisn't there we have storage. We are designed as hunters and nomads no matter how much we don't want to recognize it. Yet modern culture provides us plenty of food coupled with little physical effort to obtain it -- so people get fat. Is that natural? Yes. But the cause of the dangerous health condition requires countering our natural instincts with exercise or better self control, not prescription diet pills. Males are also designed to be active, to fight, to be agressive and "play" as any mammals are when they are young to learn the skills of survival. It's society that has created an environment where they are expected to sit quietly in church or school or whatever. They are not abnormal because of this, they just need structure in the same way they received in our ancestoral tribal units.

There are some major differences between Russia and the USA. When the lights go out in Moscow you don't see widespread looting. Just a thought. Perhaps the US might face something more akin to The Balkins or what happened in the Caucasas. In these regions people are separated by ethnic, cultural and religious differences and when the power of government ceased to keep the peace everything fell apart. In European Russia (where Russian majorities existed) there was a sense of Russianes that held people together. Regions where Russians were small minorities saw the dominant ethnic groups declare independence immediately with the US and the EU nations rapidly recognizing their claims. Between these nations there was bloodshed (between Armenia and Azerbaijan for instance) and within these coutries (Georgia's vicious attacks against non-Georgians in the north). It was not (and still isn't) a peaceful transition.

Thanks for the info -- the reason I used Bathory was because the sources I have read list her as the #1 seriel murderer (maybe because it was easier to verify her victim count). And Margin -- no thanks for the snide remark (the point was to say that there are exceptions commonly held views on seriel murderers).

You know what? Often medication gives us positive results. However, is this proof that a problem exists that needs classification as well as drugs to treat? Let's say you have a nail stuck in your foot. You can interpret the pain signals to your brain as something that has to be countered so you can take a bunch of pain killers and the symptom of pain will mostly go away. Problem is, you are only treating a symptom and not the real problem. Take the nail out and the pain signals will stop. Let's say you are really worried that you are going to lose your job. You are up late in anxiety and when you get up you can barely function. Of course, you could take amphetamines to give you energy and alertness throughout the way but that will not take the anxiety away about possible job loos. So maybe the solution is to take powerful sleeping pills. Now you will skeep but you will probably feel grogy in the morning, but that can be solved with your amphetamines. The above situation could be dealt with in a number of more positive manners without the reliance on drugs but people want a quick fix nowadays. Changing one's mental outlook, taking up relaxing activities or even looking for another job all take more work than taking a magic pill.

Yes, it should be avoided for the reasons I specified a couple of posts back in this thread. It is habit forming but not addictive in the psychological or physiological sense of the word. Our brains are designed to react in a positive manner to sex. Porn excites those centers (substituting the real thing for a counterfit image) and it has turned into big business with not only pornographers taking advantage to human psychology but also hotel chains and telecommunications. It's highly exploitive and that alone should point to how negative an influence it is.

You know, since so many kids of all ages are being fed drugs nowadays I wonder what would happen if every school in the nation assigned students to read this article: Health Blog : J&J Backed Child Psychiatry Institute to Support Risperdal Sales and have to watch this documentary: news + public affairs player: video Follow the money might take on a greater significance than one might initially imagine. And if kids are haivng their health and mental safety put in peril could we as a society be doing as great a dis-service to our young as the British did to the Chinese when Queen Victoria forced drugs on the people of China?

The common characteristic that seems to exist in the people listed here was incredible turmoul in their formative childhood years. Sick? They were legally sane -- although I am not totally sure about Gein. Pornography contributes to people wanting to engage in sexual practices that can run against Gospel principles such as fornication, adultery, group sex and (as in the case of many young women today) same sex experimentation. The evidence that it affects rape is inconclusive (the Japanese have an incredible use of porn but a low rape rate). I have seen nothing that would indicate that porn causes people to go on murderous rampages. The causes of seriel murder are not totally understood. Males usually are the ones who engage in it but the individual who has the record for murder was a woman. Most have troubled childhoods but others come from ideal family situations. Most show signs of being psychopaths yet 99+% of psychopathic people never commit murder.

Maybe anything you can watch at the Marriot Hotel chain? (Please note the irony I intend to convey here).