paul6150

I think your comments are mostly worthless. They consist mainly of "So" and "Refer to my 'so' comment. But for the sake of conversation, lets see if you can back up your rebuttals. What evidence do you have that Oliver Cowdery helped draft the BoM? ← SNOW I may not have any proof the Oliver Cowdery co-authored the BOM but there is much information that suggests that he was involved such as the fact that he was a teacher in the Vermont community where Ethan Smith (no relation to Joseph) a few years earlier wrote and published the book "A View of the Hebrews" which has similar stories of the rise and fall of ancient Indian groups who were part of the 10 lost tribes. Note also that it took a long time for the Smith/Harris combination to write the "lost 116 pages of manuscript" but when the Smith/Cowdery team took over they finished in record time. YES IT MAY BE SPECULATION ON MY PART BUT WHEN ONE LOOKS AT THESE FACTS PLUS THE MANY BORROWED BIBLE TEXTS, USE OF MODERN DAY TERMS THAT DON'T FIT IN THE BOM TIMELINE, ETC. ETC. ONE HAS TO CONSIDER THAT IT IS A POSSIBILITY THAT COWDERY ASSISTED IN PUTTING THE WORDS DOWN. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU READ ABOUT THE SMITH/COWDERY BREAK-UP AND SEE THAT IN THE BEGINNING COWDERY BELIEVED HE WAS KEY TO THE REVALTORY WORK BEING PUT TOGETHER. My speculation is as good as the story of Smith's many adventures before he was given the plates. None of us were there so we are asked to accept the word of Smith that he did indeed speak to the Father and Son together in the First Vision and that the Angel Moroni came in 1823 and so on and so on. What proof do you have that these events really happened other than you accept the words of Smith. How about when John the Baptist supposedly reappeared to Smith/Cowdery and baptized them into the Aaronic Priesthood. Again you only have these two guys word on the matter. So you all speculate it is true and I speculate it is not. Unless you were ther your speculation is no better off than mine. What about archeological proof that there was ever such a thing as Reformed Egypt. Surely there should be some proof of that to verify the claims.

I DON'T HAVE TIME TO ANSWER ALL TAOIST SAINT'S POINTS BUT I AGREE WITH PRISON CHAPLAIN. IF YOU AGREE THAT THESE QAULIFIERS VALIDATE THE BOM THEN YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THE KORAN AND MANY OTHER SO CALLED WORDS FROM GOD BY MANY OTHERS. NOW TO SOME OF THE SPECIFIC QUALIFIERS 1. Write a history of ancient Tibet covering a period from 600 B.C. to 450 A.D. Why ancient Tibet? Because you know no more about Tibet than Joseph Smith (or anyone else) knew about ancient America. MANY OF THE STORIES IN THE BOM ABOUT ANCIENT AMERICANS DO NOT REQUIRE ONE TO HAVE BEEN THERE. ANY PERSON WITH A VIVD IMAGINATION COULD COME UP WITH SIMILAR STORIES OF WAR AND DEATH. THEN BY PUTTING SOME BIBLE VERSES IN IT AND SOME OTHER BIBLE SOUNDING THINGS THEY COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT SOUNDS RELIGIOUS. 2. You are 23 years of age. THERE ARE MANY AUTHORS YOUNGER THAN THIS. 3. You have had no more than three years of formal school education, and have spent your life in backwoods farming communities. REFER BACK TO MY COMMENT ABOUT VIVID IMAGINATION AND STRYTELLING CAPABILITIES 4. Your history must be written on the basis of what you now know. There was no library that held information for Joseph Smith. You must use none. There is to be no research of any kind. THERE IS STILL NEWSPAPERS AND PEOPLE PASSING ON THE LATEST NEWS ABOUT SOME FINDINGS. ALSO REMEMBER OLIVER COWDERY WAS A SCHOOL TEACHER. HOW DO WE KNOW IF HE DIDN'T HELP THE DRAFT ALONG. 5. Your history must be 531 pages and over 300,000 words in length. MANY NON FICTION AS WELL AS FICTION BOOKS ARE THIS LONG 6. Other than a few grammatical corrections, you must have no changes in the text. The first edition as you dictate it to your secretary must stand forever. IF YOU COMPARE THE ORIGINAL TO THE BOM WE HAVE NOW YOU WILL FIND MORE THAN GRAMMATICAL CHANGES 7. This record is to contain the history of two distinct and separate nations, along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people. STILL COULD BE A VIVD IMAGINATION 8. You must describe their religious, economic, political, and social cultures and institutions. Cover every phase of their society, including the names of their coins. MANY STORIES TELL DETAILS LIKE THIS 9. Change your style of writing many times. Many ancient authors contributed to the Book of Mormon, each with his own style. NOT A LINGUIST SO I CAN'T COMMENT ON THIS ONE. ARE YOU A LINGUIST TO BE ABLE TO VALIDATE THIS? 10. Weave into your history the religion of Jesus Christ and the pattern of Christian living. AGAIN VIVID IMAGINATION PLUS A LOT OF BORROWING FROM THE BIBLE 11. You must claim that your smooth narrative is not fiction with moral value, but true and sacred history. MANY OTHERS HAVE DONE THIS 12. You must include in you book fifty-four chapters dealing with wars, twenty-one historical chapters, fifty-five chapters on visions and prophecies. Remember, when you begin to write visions and prophecies, you must have your record agree meticulously with the Bible. You must write seventy-one chapters on doctrine and exhortation, and you must check every statement with the scriptures or you will be proven a fraud. You must write twenty-one chapters on the ministry of Christ, and every thing you claim he said and every testimony you write in your book about Him must agree absolutely with the New Testament. I HAVE POSTED ELSEWHERE THAT THE BOM WORK DOES NOT AGREE WITH THE BIBLE 13. Many of the facts, claims, ideas, and statements given as absolute truth in your writing must be entirely inconsistent with the prevailing beliefs of the world. Some of these worldly beliefs must be the direct opposite of your claims. NOT SURE YOU CAN PROVE THEY ARE DIFFERENT FROM THE WORLD 14. Included in your narrations will be authentic modes of travel; whether or not those ancient people used fire; description of their clothing, crops, mourning customs, and types of government. You must invent about 280 new names that will stand up under scrutiny through the years as to their proper application and derivation. AGAIN VIVID STORYTELLING FROM SOMEONE WHO LIVED IN THE 1800'S 15. You will have to properly use figures of speech, similes, metaphors, narrations, exposition, descriptions, oratory, epic lyric, and parables. AGAIN STORYTELLING 16. You must invite the ablest scholars and experts to examine the text with care, and you must strive diligently to see that your book gets into the hands of those eager to prove it a forgery, and who are most competent to expose every flaw in it. MANY PEOPLE HAVE PROVED THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT SEEM FISHY ABOUT THE STORIES 17. Thorough investigation, scientific and historical evidence, and archeological discovery for the next 125 years must verify its claims and prove detail after detail to be true, for many of the details you put in your history are still buried beneath the soil of Tibet. NAME SOME QUALIFIED ARCHEOLOGISTS WHO SAY THEY USED THE BOM TO VERIFIY AN ARCHEOLOGICAL FINDING 18. You must publish it to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people declaring it to be the word of God and another witness for the Lord Jesus Christ. THE KORAN IS PUBLISHED TO THE WORLD AND HAS MANY ADHERENTS 19. The book must not contain any absurd, impossible, or contradictory statements. Your history must not contain any statement that will contradict any other statement elsewhere in the volume. EVEN FROM MY STUDIES I HAVE FOUND MANY PLACES WHERE THE BOM CONTRADICTS ITSELF 20. Many theories and ideas as to its origin must arise, and after discovering and examining the facts, they must fail. You have claimed that your knowledge had come from divine origin, and this claim continues to stand as the only possible explanation. The strength of this explanation must not decrease as time passes, but actually increases to the point where it becomes the only logical explanation. NAME A FEW OF THESE IF YOU WOULD 21. Your record is to fulfill many Bible prophecies, even in the exact manner in which it shall come forth, to whom delivered, its purposes, and its accomplishments. WHICH BIBLE PROPHECIES HAS IT FULFILLED 22. Call down an angel from heaven in the middle of the day and have him bear testimony to four honest, dignified citizens of your community that the record is the word of God. These witnesses must bear the angel's testimony to the world, not for profit or gain, but under great sacrifice and severe persecution, even to their death beds. You must put that testimony to the test by becoming an enemy to these men. I QUESTION THE COMMENT ABOUT "HONEST DIGNIFIED MEN" MUCH TESTIMONY ABOUT JS AND OTHERS TREASURE SEEKING 23. Thousands of great men, intellectual giants, national and international personalities, and scholars for 165 years must accept your history and its teachings even to the point of laying down their life rather than deny their testimony of it. PEOPLE USED TO THINK THE WORLD WAS FLAT. MANYM INTELLIGENT PEOPLE HELD ON TO THAT BELIEF SO IS THE WORLD FLAT AFTER ALL 24. You must include with within the record this promise: "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, He will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost." CAREFUL WHAT YOU ASK FOR SOMETIMES WE RECEIVE OUR OWN THOUGHTS AND THINK THEY CAME FROM GOD. GOT TO COMPARE IT WITH PREVIOUS WORDS FROM GOD 25. Missionaries must bear record to the world for the next 165 years that they know the record to be true because they put the promise to the test and found it to be true. The truth of it was manifested to them by the power of the Holy Ghost. KORAN FITS IN THAT CATEGORY ALSO 26. Over 52,900 plus competent salesman must be so sold on your book that they gladly give up two or more years of their lives to take it to all parts of the world for distribution. They not only pay their own way during these years, but return bearing testimony that the time spent will remain as one of the highlights of their lives. They receive nothing in return for their efforts but the joy of having shared your book with others. JEHOVAH WITNESSES SPEND HOURS OUT ON THE STREETS DOES THAT MAKE THERE TEACHING CORRECT ALSO 27. Your book must not only raise the standards of millions of people but do it in such a way that they become one of the great moral, ethical, and dynamic marvels of the day. They must become world renowned for this. MANY TEACHERS OUT THERE DO THE SAME TO STUDENTS EVERY YEAR 28. For the next 20 years you must watch those that follow and you, your family, and the dearest of your loved ones persecuted, driven time after time from their homes, beaten, tortured, starved, frozen and killed. Tens of thousands must undergo the most extreme hardships in your presence just because they believe your claims concerning the origin and content of what you have written on ancient Tibet. MANY OF THE THINGS THEY CALL PERSECUTION WERE BROUGHT ON BY THEMSELVES WHEN THEY TRIED TO TAKE LEGAL THINGS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS. THEY WEREN'T AS INNOCENT AS YOU SEEM TO PRESENT 29. You must gain no wealth from your work, but many times lose all that you have. Like those that believe you, you must submit yourself to the most vile persecution. And finally after 20 years of this, give your own life in a very savage and brutal manner, for your testimony concerning your history book. This must be done willingly on your part. THE LAW FINALLY CAUGHT UP WITH HIM FOR BURNIG THE PRESS OF A RIVAL PAPER. CAN'T SAY HE DIED AS A MARTYR BECAUSE HE HAD GUNS TO FIGHT BACK WITH. MOST MARTYRS DON'T HAVE TO FIGHT BACK TO DIE FOR THEIR FAITH 30. Start right now and produce this record which covers 1,000 years of history, doing it, not in the peaceful atmosphere of your community, but under the most trying of circumstances which include being driven from your home several times, and receiving constant threats upon your life. Please have your book completed, talk a friend into mortgaging his farm to raise money to have it printed - all in 60 days. IT TOOK THEM MORE THAN 60 DAYS TO TRANSLATE IT WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH 60 DAYS There is only one answer: The Book of Mormon is a divine record. If not, its origin must be stated and its claims must be explained by the critic. It isn't enough to merely discard it as false and forget about it! IT FIRST MUST BE EXAMINED IN LIGHT OF THE BIBLE GOD'S ORIGINAL WORD THEN WE WILL DETERMINE IF IT IS DIVINE OR FALSE The first thing to do in examining any ancient text (IF IT IS ANCIENT? ) SOME REAL SERIOUS CONCERNS IT IS NOT... since historical forgery is virtually impossible. MANY FICTIONAL STORIES DECLARE THEY ARE HISTORICAL SO BRIEFLY TAOIST SAINT I THINK YOU HAVEN'T PROVED YOUR POINT ABOUT THE BOM BEING FROM GOD. SIMPLE ANSWERS AS SHOWN ABOVE CAN CONTRADICT WHAT YOU CLAIM ARE VALIDATION POINTS.

LIONHEART So of I understand your last post correctly you basically "write off" the testimonies of those key individuals that were there with JS (Martin Harris, David Whittmer, Emma Smith and I am sure there are others) when the "translation process" occurred simply because they didn't follow Brigham Young to SLC. As you said Emma Smith "was probably the most credible source, because she was the wife of Joseph Smith" and she believed in him. Just because she joined the RLDS after the death of JS doesn't exclude "her from being a reliable source". She still believed in her husband and the BOM till her death so how can one exclude her testimony. Along with this thought then why does every copy of the BOM still contain David Whittmer's testimony as one of the 3 witnesses. You can't have it both ways. Whittmer never rejoined the LDS like some say Cowdery and Harris did which that is up for debate also. In fact many of the 8 witnesses never went the LDS route either do you throw out their testimony also? Seems like a double standard to take their testimony in one area and not take it in another. You said you have read "the personal journal of Joseph Smith, and the seerstone was never mentioned; only the urim and thummim." I think you are a bit naive in thinking that JS never used the "seer stone". There is far too much testimony from friend and foe alike that state JS used a seer stone. He was even convicted in court for "glass-looking". In fact if you check it out I believe there are 3 of JS's seer stones in the LDS Presidents Vault. I can't think that a rational person could ever say "perhaps someone got the two stories crossed". You ask "Who is to say that there was or wasn't such a language in existence as we don't have the plates to prove it." Hey, you are right in the fact that the plates are not here as we are told they were given back to "Moroni". But if the ancestors of the Aztecs, Inca and Maya Indians were these "Nephites and Lamanites" then why doesn't the descendants still use this language? Why do they not have any evidence of religious or historical writings that are on metal plates? Where is the archeological evidence that this language existed? They didn't live in a vacuum, surely there would be some supporting evidence somewhere in "BOM territory". Can you point to some credible evidence that such a language existed? I am glad you "stand behind you 100% concerning the fact that modern doctrine cannot contradict earlier doctrine. Otherwise it is false." So you need to go in with "eyes open" to seek the truth. Ask the Lord Jesus to help you look at the "fine points of deception" as He asked me several years ago to do. Be one who studies to prove themselves as a profitable servant of the Lord. Along with the stumbling blocks regarding the "gold plates" I ask you go back and read my earlier posts (Posts 34, 38 and 42) to see some other stumbling blocks.

LIONHEART WHATEVER THE CASE we're back to the fact that the Professor Anthon story cannot be relied upon to test the veracity of the claims by JS and MH. This is because we have two conflicting stories as to what happened in the interaction. So we move on to the thing I said in the last post. "So we must look for other things to verify the veracity and truth of what JS claims as his translation process. You haven't countered the number of other items about how the translation process occurred (seer stone versus interpreters), plates there or not there, lots of wordiness in the BOM, capacity of the 2" of plates, and so on." There must be explanations to these things that would help one believe JS and others testimonies as to what he did in translating the BOM. Each or any of them could be damaging to JS credibility as a prophet. Yes I agree that the comparison of testimony about JS being a prophet and the testimony of Jesus being the Son of God could be similar but you forget that there are other things that must be used to evaluate anyone who calls themselves a prophet of God. He is saying he is hearing directly from God and what he hears must agree with already existing WORDS FROM GOD. If they don't then we have to reject the one who calls themselves a prophet of God. That is what this "thread of discussion" is all about (stumbling blocks to the BOM). All I was posting in my long previous posts were several things that could be stumbling blocks for someone to believe the BOM story. I just wanted to see what the Mormons have for answers to these concerns. I am sure it is not the first time it has been brought up before.

LIONHEART Nice try I am already aware of the story about Professor Anthon and JS and MH attempt (or so called attempt) to authenticate the translation. However if one reads Professor Anthon's statement that describes this incident with Martin Harris one will find it doesn't match the story that Martin Harris and Smith came up with. Now who do we believe here? In fact there is a D of C so called prophecy about this whole incident trying to tie this to an Isaiah text I believe. It has been awhile since I reviewed this material so I may not have all my facts totally straight but the general gist is correct. As you said this can't be verified because there is two conflicting statements as to what happened or didn't happen. So we must look for other things to verify the veracity and truth of what JS claims as his translation process. You haven't countered the number of other items about how the translation process occurred (seer stone versus interpreters), plates there or not there, lots of wordiness in the BOM, capacity of the 2" of plates, and so on. NOW I DO DISAGREE WITH YOUR STATEMENT "No amount of science or reasoning can prove that Jesus was the son of God either. We depend on the spirit to verify it for us." There is much evidence to prove that Jesus was the Son of God. First we have His many statements that He was indeed the Son of God as declared in the Bible; We have the testimony of those who followed Him and some of this testimony is also found in the Bible. We have the testimony of non-Christians such as Josephus and Pliny that say Jesus claimed He was the Son of God. Now these non-Christians may not have believed but they wrote about His claiming to be God. We have the proof that the entire civilized world was dramatically affected by the entire Christian movement within a few hundred years. We have much archeological evidence that He existed and claimed He was God. No I do agree that we weren't there and it does require faith on our part to believe but with all of the evidence that He is who He claimed to be - it becomes very provable and acceptable. 2 Timothy 1:12 has these words "... Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him for that day." Paul did not see Jesus in the physical but He saw enough evidence of His work in his life and the life of others that he trusted Jesus even to martyrdom.

SO LIONHEART Joseph Smith could insert anything he thought fit with the characters that were supposedly on the plates. Then how do we know it is true since we can't verify the original translation process? The "golden plates" are not around (if they ever were here) anymore. How do we know that Smith didn't just insert anything and everything he wanted to because that is what he thought the character was saying? Furthermore, the witnesses testified he didn't use the plates during the translation process but used the seer stone in his hat and the hat to his face. How can you say he looked at the characters on the plates if he didn't use the plates? Seems contradictory.

MORONI All I can say is HUHHH!! I guess I couldn't determine exactly what part of my long comment your note was about. Can you point out what you were referring to and why you feel it is wrong.

Actually "Adieu" does have a seperate distinct meaning than "good-bye" or even "bonjour" Adieu means good-bye for a very long if not eternal ammount of time. When you leave for work for the day its "Bonjour". But when you are going away to college, moving far away, or saying your goodbyes at a funeral....its "Adieu" So, I guess it WAS/IS the best word for the translation after all. Sorry to burst your bubble Jason. ← SORRY ABOUT THE LENGTH OF THIS POST BUT IT NEEDED TO BE PUT ALL OUT THERE FOR COMMENT. One of the biggest stumbling blocks of the Book of Mormon that must be overcome is the implausible story of how it all started. BOOK OF MORMON PLATES As one studies about the Book of Mormon whether from a pro or con viewpoint they will encounter a description of the so called “golden plates” that Joseph Smith allegedly translated from to bring forth the Book of Mormon. This summary hopefully will help one understand whether to accept or reject the often told story of how the Book of Mormon came forth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Plates has this information about the “golden plates”. Other cultures have kept records on metal plates, and those found to date have been extremely thin, so as to facilitate their being engraven into with a pointed utensil. For utilitarian reasons alone, to make it both easier and feasible, the plates would need to be thin enough to allow depressions to be made into them simply by applying pressure, rather than having to scratch and dig as thicker plates would necessitate. Michael R. Ash points to the discovery of objects made from “tumbaga”, gold-copper alloy in South America. He writes that using this alloy would make the plates more rigid and lighter. This claim is congruent with William Smith's idea that the plates might be part gold and part copper. Orichalcum, the legendary metal of Atlantis and the Temple of Solomon, is held by many to match this same description. In 500 B.C (concurrent with the Book of Mormon), Darius the Great of Persia inscribed his history on a gold plate and sealed it in a stone box in the temple at Persepolis. The BBC wrote a news story about a six page gold book on display in Bulgaria. This is claimed to be the world's oldest multiple-page book. The book is written in the lost Etruscan language. From this and other articles found in an internet search, there appears, on the surface, to be some evidence of Joseph Smith’s and others claims that there indeed was a set of “golden plates” that were instrumental in the bringing forth of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith claimed that the Angel Moroni came in 1823 and told him about these “golden plates” that had the recorded history and teachings of ancient inhabitants of the Americas. These plates also described the appearance of Jesus Christ to the Americas after his death and resurrection in Israel. These plates were supposedly buried by Moroni in 421 AD to be later removed from their hiding place by Joseph Smith on September 22, 1827 near his New York home. I won’t present the many controversial claims of others about Joseph Smith’s character before and during the time he allegedly obtained the “golden plates” but will spend more time on whether the description of these “golden plates” is plausible based on the wikipedia.org article. What is Tumbaga? A number of Mormons have suggested that the “gold plates” weren’t actually pure gold but were made of “tumbaga”, a metal made of gold and copper (estimated at 8 to 12 carat gold). These Mormons estimate the weight of the “gold plates” (6” wide, 8” long and 6” thick) made of tumbaga would weigh between 53 and 86 pounds. There are some Mormons who claim like Joseph Smith that the plates were of pure gold. If the “gold plates” were of pure gold they could have easily weighed over 200 pounds which would make it hard to lift as many of Smith’s family and friends testify. An LDS organization, FARMS promotes this tumbaga theory based on William Smith’s (brother of Joseph Jr.) statement the plates were made of a mixture of gold and copper. This seems strange since there was never an attempt by Joseph Smith to have the material analyzed. Additionally William Smith admitted he had never seen the plates so how could he say they were gold and copper. His testimony was that he was allowed to lift the plates that were inside of a pillow-case. Despite the effort of FARMS to promote the tumbaga theory it still is not being taken to seriously. Even the May 15, 1999 issue of the LDS Church News claimed that Joseph Smith in 1827 “was entrusted with plates of solid gold which he had been translating by the power of the Spirit” (http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/how-heavy.html). The LDS scholars have failed to show any evidence that native Americans ever recorded their history or religious texts on metal sheets during the Book of Mormon timeline. Capacity of the Plates to Hold All That Was Claimed Joseph Smith described the specific size of the plates and that a portion of the plates were sealed. The unsealed part, according to Smith, had small and beautifully engraved characters. Apostle Orson Pratt indicated that 2/3 of the plates were sealed. So the entire Book of Mormon text (522 pages) and the 116 “lost manuscript pages” had to have been on 1/3 of the plates (loose leaf plates a total of 2” thick). The Mormons claim that a metal plate of Persia (Darius Tablet) is about the size of the Book of Mormon plates; however, this tablet of a declaration made by King Darius written in 3 different scripts thus only containing one paragraph of actual text (eight lines of cuneiform writing written in 3 languages). The engravings on the King Darius tablet are relatively large and widely spaced. How is this example of an ancient writing proving the entire Book of Mormon and the lost 116 pages could be on similar material? Mormons also claim that the copper scroll found in the Dead Sea Scrolls is another example of writing on metal. However, if one examines the photo of this copper scroll it demonstrates only a small amount of engraving is on the metal plus the engraving process pushes right through the plate. Obviously it would be hard to engrave on both sides of the very thin plates thus further complicating the claim the entire Book of Mormon is on only 2” of thin metal plates. Also there is no archeological evidence that describe the use of sets of metal plates in ancient civilizations of the Book of Mormon time period. (www.usc.edu/dept/LAS?wsrp/educational_site/dead_sea_scrolls/copperscroll_e.shtml) The Book of Mormon also describes “plates of brass” (1 Nephi 4:38); “plates of ore” (Mosiah 21:27); “plates of gold” (Mosiah 28:11); “plates of Nephi” (1 Nephi 9:1-4); and the “plates of Jacob” (Jacob 3:14). This is quite impressive but one has to ask wouldn’t it be awkward to transport them around. The Bible describes the transmission of the Bible text on leather, papyrus and parchment materials which would be much more transportable and easy to use. Where is the evidence of Near East or New World religious text or history recorded on such extensive plates? Where does the Bible describe the use of metal plates? Obviously the Book of Mormon text is way to long plus the use of metal plates would have been expensive and difficult to engrave, for such a description as described in the Book of Mormon to be true. Why so Much Wordiness in the Book of Mormon? Related to the capacity issue, noted above, is the places in the Book of Mormon that have a lot of additions that are very wordy but of very little additional value to the teaching. Considering that only 2” of plates were available to engrave the Book of Mormon plus lost 116 pages on, it would seem that the author would be very brief and not wordy. Several places the Book of Mormon author noted the lack of space on the plates and the lack of ore to make more plates. WHY ADD THESE LONG NARRATIVES OR REPEATS FROM THE BOOK OF ISAIAH, THE GOSPELS, ETC.? One example is 3 Nephi 21:2-7. This passage is a single sentence with 340 words in it. Although the Bible has many long sentences, they were writing on manuscripts and not struggling with the process of engraving on metal plates. It is estimated that 21 chapters of Isaiah are included in the Book of Mormon and some or part of those Isaiah passages are repeated several times. Since the Nephites supposedly had the entire Book of Isaiah on the “brass plates” why recopy it onto the “gold plates”? Plates Found in a Stone Box and the 10 Lost Hebrew Tribes Legends When the King Darius tablet was found it was found in a stone box. There are Mormons claiming that this proves Joseph Smith’s description of where he found the “gold plates”. Smith claimed he found the plates along with some other items in a stone box. Mormons ask “How would Joseph Smith know that ancient people used to place important things in stone boxes?” This can simply be explained that during Joseph Smith’s early years there were many newspaper articles about Indians burying their dead in stone boxes similar to the one Smith described. Much rumor and discussion of the Indian burial mounds in and around New York State were common at that time. Stone boxes of various sizes and shapes had reportedly been found in Kentucky, Missouri, New York, Ohio, Tennessee and other places. It was reported by some that these Indian boxes contained various metal plates with engraving on them. Metal plates were claimed to be found by others throughout this time period thus making it “fertile ground” for the development of the legend of the “lost Indian book”. Congregational minister Ethan Smith (no relation to Joseph Smith) wrote a book (View of the Hebrews) in 1825 based on the premise that the Indians once had such a book engraved on metal plates. Ethan Smith’s book was a compilation of popular opinions about the origins of the American Indians who supposedly descended from the 10 lost Hebrew tribes. An interesting fact in the Book of Mormon storyline is that Oliver Cowdery, one of Joseph Smith’s closest friends and scribe for much of the Book of Mormon translation, had come from the same town (Poultney, Vermont) as had Ethan Smith. Joseph Smith’s boyhood home in Sharon, Vermont is only 40 miles from Poultney, Vermont. Additionally, Ethan Smith’s book, View of the Hebrews, was also widely read in New York State. Another author of that time, Josiah Priest had published two books stating a similar thesis to that of Ethan Smith. In one of Priest’s books, The Wonders of Nature and Providence Displayed (editions printed in 1825 and 1826) he concluded that over 40 writers of that time period believed that the Indians had descended from the 10 lost Hebrew tribes. Ethan Smith’s book also describes: 1) Indians as descendants from the Hebrews; 2) the savage tribes wiped out their civilized brethren; 3) sacred books were transmitted down through the generations and then buried in a hill to be found later; 4) like the Book of Mormon, it identifies the American Indians as the “stick of Joseph or Ephraim”, the tribe of Joseph which would be reunited with the stick of Judah (the Jews- Chapter 37 of Ezekiel); and, 5) the need to awaken and convert the Indians back to their “scriptural heritage”. Did Joseph Smith Actually Need the “Gold Plates” or the Interpreters? A big question that needs to be addressed is that during the translation process did Joseph Smith actually read from the “golden plates” or was some other means used to bring forth the words? Several eyewitnesses and scribes for the translation process described the entire process as follows: “Joseph Smith would place the seer stone in his hat and put his face into the hat and would dictate hour after hour with the plates either laying in a pillowcase beside them or hidden away in the woods”. Some of the people who testified as such were: Emma Smith (Joseph’s wife), Isaac Hale (Emma’s father), David Whitmer and Martin Harris. According to Joseph Smith, the Angel Moroni informed him that along with the “golden plates” he would find the interpreters (Urim and Thummim). This device consisted of two stones mounted in silver bows and connected to a breastplate. Smith stated that “God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.” Martin Harris did claim that Smith used the interpreters for the translation of the “lost 116 pages” but after awhile for convenience reasons began using the “seer stone” Smith had found while digging Willard Chase’s well. This is unusual in that God supposedly preserved the interpreters for the express purpose of translating the book but a rock found in a well worked just as well as God’s specially prepared device just because the rock was more convenient. What About the Golden Plates That BBC Reported About? This BBC report, in May 2003, was about the display of the world's oldest multiple-page book, in the lost Etruscan language which now is on display in Bulgaria's National History Museum in Sofia. This unique artifact consisted of six bound sheets of 24 carat gold, with illustrations of a horse with rider, a mermaid, a harp and soldiers with a small amount of text. This small manuscript is estimated to be 2500 years old and was discovered 60 years ago in a tomb in Southwestern Bulgaria. There are around 30 similar pages known in the world except they are not linked together in a book like this one. Bulgarian linguist Vladimir Georgiev is working on a translation of the text. The Etruscans, one of Europe's most mysterious ancient peoples, were wiped out by the conquering Romans in the fourth century BC, leaving few written records. By 200 BC, the Etruscan language was already replaced by Latin except for some isolated communities. A web site that has a considerable discussion about this ancient language and people is - http://www.maravot.com/frame197618.html.Another web site that discusses a similar find in Italy is - http://users.tpg.com.au/etr/etrusk/po/pyrgi.html. The only surviving Etruscan book, Liber Linteus, was written on linen and survived by being used as mummy wrappings. The Tabula Capuana, a terra cotta slab now conserved in Berlin, represents the second most extensive surviving Etruscan text. The third longest Etruscan inscription is the cast bronze inscription found at Cortona in 1992. The Pyrgi Tablets, found in a 1964 excavation of a sanctuary, consists of three golden leaves the record of a temple dedication made around 500 BC, to the Phoenician goddess Ashtart. These tablets are now held at the National Etruscan Museum of Villa Giulia, Rome. First Plate, of the Pyrgi Tablets, was Written in Etruscan and translates as follows: “That temple and these Hermes idols are dedicated to Uni-Astre, built by the clanspeople. Tiberius Velianas the pleasing aedicula has given. That burial of his own by these priests with idols was encircled. For three years [in the month of] Churvar, with Her burnt offerings, with idols [it was] buried. During the reign of the chief, in Her hand [he] would be brought forth (ie: Uni-Astre gave him authority to rule). And with these Hermes idols, the year(s) shall endure as the stars.” Second Plate, of the Pyrgi Tablets, was Written in Etruscan and translates as follows: “When Thefarie Velianas had built the statue of the sanctuary [in] the month of Masan, Uni was pleased. The votives of the temple yearly have been as numerous as the stars.” The third plate is written in Phoenician and generally paraphrases the text of the first two plates. We do not know the reason why King Thefarie Velianas dedicated a sanctuary to the goddess and wrote his dedication both in Etruscan and Phoenician on golden plates. Perhaps he wanted to get into the good graces of his powerful allies. NOW DOES THE FINDING OF THESE ANCIENT METAL PLATES VALIDATE WHAT JOSEPH SMITH AND OTHERS STATED ABOUT THE “GOLDEN PLATES”. Similar to the discussion in “Capacity of the Plates to Hold All That Was Claimed” above, these Etruscan metal plates do not contain enough text to say they contain anywhere near the volume of words required to be on the “golden plates”. Also the Etruscan plates were only written on one side. Summary After evaluating all of these issues it becomes obvious that Smith’s claim to having found “golden plates” which he used to translate the Book of Mormon is highly unlikely. Joseph Smith once said that Mormonism either stands or falls on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Either the Book of Mormon is what Smith said it is or it is an out-in-out deception. It is up to whoever reads this to make a decision. IS IT TRUE OR IS IT A LIE?

Yes, and Im not even Mormon. ← LET ME HELP THE “SON OF PAUL” IN THIS BATTLE ABOUT WHAT IF’S These are some very good “what if questions” because all who are students of the truth must ask these types of questions everyday. We must base truth on sound evidence, solid teaching and tested documentation. We can’t test truth on: hearsay evidence without checking it out ourselves; personal feelings that are relied on can lead to accept an untruth based on how I felt at the moment; and so on. We must first start by ask a much broader question first. How do we know that anything is true? How do we test any claims of truth? The answer to these two questions is: we test to see what is truth through observation, experimentation, examination, eyewitnesses and scientific evidence. For example, one must test historical claims measured by the common standards of historical research. Any claims, for truth, generally, will be verified by some other documentation or scientific evidence. These claims of truth must also be tested for rationality. Is it logically consistent and coherent? The Bible has, through thousands of years, been claimed as a standard of truth. One of the most astonishing things, of course, is that the Bible has literally thousands of testable historical prophecies, cases in which events were clearly foretold, and both the foretelling and the fulfillment is a matter of historical record. We must also examine the Book of Mormon, by these same methods to see if it is a source of truth, as claimed by Smith and others. Conversely, if, like many other so called statements about the truth, of a particular belief system, it falls by the way side as false teaching and erroneous beliefs. So let’s examine of the responses to the what if questions posed by SON OF PAUL BEN RAINES SAID: “I believe that God continues to communicate with his children whom he loves.” HEY, WE FOUND SOMETHING WE AGREE ON BUT THEN YOU NARROW DOWN YOUR STATEMENT TO ONLY “living prophets today”. I am assuming you are referring to the LDS seer, prophet, and revelator. I agree God hasn’t “closed the heavens” and speaks to every one of us today if we will listen!! But I think you are limiting your focus to only the “living prophets in the LDS church” which is where you are in error. Peter declared in Acts 2:17 that when the Holy Spirit falls on His people the “sons and daughters shall prophesy”. Acts 21:9 states Philip had 4 daughters that all prophesied. Paul states in Romans 12:4-6 that the believers shall prophesy according to the proportion of faith they have. Paul states in 1 Corinthians 14:1, 24, 39 that there would be many who prophesy as the Holy Spirit moves in them. Paul even goes so far as to say “covet to prophesy”. So my take on this is that God never intended prophecy to be only one individual as the LDS teach. So SON OF PAUL is correct in asking the question “Does God speak to normal people like you and me” or does he only speak through only the (living) prophets? I believe that God speaks through many prophets today. However, in all cases, the prophecies must be compared to a standard of truth that will test to see if it is really God speaking as He spoke in the past. This is where it gets difficult for there are many false prophets out there. So since the Bible has been tested and verified as the Word of God then we should be checking any new prophecies against it to verify the veracity of the “so called prophecy”. LINDY asked some more “what if” questions but I didn’t see anything there to further respond to except if she accepts the Lord Jesus as her personal Savior as I have posted elsewhere then we will meet in heaven. JOSIE apparently got a little upset over the “what if questions”. SON OF PAUL was only asking the dramatic questions to make one think. Paul stated in 2 Corinthians 13:5 “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith, test yourselves. Do you realize that Christ Jesus is in you – unless of course you fail the test.” So we are to ask the what if questions. JOSIE goes on to talk about the LDS church has withstood “mobs, murder, threatenings, fire, and much, much more.” I don’t disagree with that but SON OF PAUL’S question was about the BOM. The JOSIE states the “Book of Mormon is being used to find ruins of cities in central and south America.” Please provide some proof from known and respected archeologists as to the veracity of this claim. And to base your truth on the statement that the “LDS Church is one of the fastest growing churches in the World” does not prove anything. Communism was at one time the fastest growing form of government but it was based on a lie. So for the most part it has fell by the wayside. JIGGYPOO says he will have lived a good life based on what he perceived as truth. That doesn’t answer the question asked. If it is not true then why do you live by a lie why not search out the truth. If JS told some “tall tales” which he was known to do then those who follow him blindly also will have to account for their belief before God. JIGGYPOO then makes a great statement in “I know my God and His great compassion and infinite goodness. I know my sins are remitted through His Son. I do not fear the judgment bar of God. I know in whom I have trusted.” I hope and pray you are basing this statement on the acceptance of Jesus as your personal Savior. JIGGYPOO says the “Mormons believe the Bible to be divinely inspired but that portions have been removed or changed”. The BOM states that the Bible has the “fullness of the everlasting gospel”… and that the BOM “contains, as does the Bible, the fullness of the everlasting gospel”. After this one statement in the Introduction of the LDS version of the BOM there a systematic tearing down of the statement that the Bible “contains the fullness of the everlasting Gospel”. For example read the 6th paragraph of the same Introduction which quotes Joseph Smith as saying “…Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than any other book”. This statement leaves the impression that the BOM is superior to the Bible and should be trusted more. 2N 29:8, 10 also tear down the Bible by saying “plain and precious” things have been removed. If one studies out the dissemination process of the New Testament in the early church they would find it very hard to say there was a systematic removal of these things. JIGGYPOO you are basing your premise on what the BOM, JS and other Mormon teachers have told you to believe. Study out the NT dissemination process as I have said and verify it. I will have to stop here because I have run out of time to respond at this time. I will work on the rest of the responses later.

TRAVELER THOSE OF US WHO ARE POSTING ON THIS SITE WHO ARE NOT LDS HAVE NOT INDICATED THAT OBEYING THE COMMANDMENTS OR GOOD WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY AFTER THE SALVATION EXPERIENCE. What we have said is that when we surrender to God and accept His free gift of salvation through the work of Christ Jesus that "God" from that point on will work in us and through us to glorify Himself. Therefore works will happen as we surrender but they will be Him working through us, helping us to love our neighbor, helping us to not be a stingy person but instead to be giving person, etc. etc. That is what we are saying nothing more nothing less as to the work of God after salvation and our adoption into God's family. Now on the contrary the BOM and LDS teaching continue to require one in their own strength to keep commandments with only a "maybe" they will be saved. For example I ask you look up these BOM passages: Mosiah 18:8-13 (Mosiah 9:38-44 RLDS) presents some of Alma’s teaching on what was necessary to join the “fold of God and to be called his people” and to be granted eternal life. Some of these criterions are as follows: 1). “Willing to bear one another’s burdens” 2). “Willing to mourn with those that mourn.” 3). Comfort those who need comfort 4). “Stand as witnesses of God at all times, and in all things and in all places … even until death.” 5). Be baptized in the name of the Lord. 6). Serve him and keep his commandments… “Serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body.” Alma further instructed the people that after they performed all of these things “ye may be redeemed of God…ye may have eternal life…and may he grant unto you eternal life…” (Emphasis added). As noted the BOM sets up a whole list of works that need to be completed and maybe, just maybe, God will redeem you and grant you eternal life. Whatever happened to “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but has everlasting life… He that believes on Him is not condemned but he that does not believe is already condemned because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:16, 18 (emphasis added). Alma 7:14 (Alma 5:24-25 RLDS) The first part of this verse emphasizes the need to “repent and be born again…” but then emphasizes the need to “be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God….” (Emphasis added). Later in verse 16 (verse 28 RLDS) we read “And whosoever doeth this, and keepeth the commandments of God from thenceforth… he shall have eternal life….” The BOM continues to place considerable emphasis on being baptized and keeping the commandments (our works) in order to be saved or maybe saved. Alma 9:11-14, Alma 38:1 (Alma 7:12-17, Alma 18:1 RLDS) These passages first state that one is saved by “his matchless power, and his mercy, and his long suffering towards us…” and except we repent “ye can in nowise inherit the Kingdom of God.” As in many other parts of the BOM, within a few verses of the correct message (God saves us by the work of Jesus Christ and His grace), we find such statements as “Inasmuch as ye will not keep my commandments ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord.” The Lamanites didn’t keep the commandments of God and “they have been cut from the presence of the Lord.” Keeping the commands of the Lord is necessary to staying in the presence of the Lord. This idea is true, to a limited extent, in that if we don’t keep His commands He can’t work with us as well, however, the Bible emphasizes that He will be with the believer “at all times” and He will not leave or forsake us (Hebrews 13:5-6). The BOM suggests that if one doesn’t keep the commandments they could end up in “endless damnation” (Mosiah 16:11 LDS, Mosiah 8:84-85 RLDS). Alma 13:29-30 (Alma 10:29-30 RLDS) mixes the grace and works message in that it states: “Having faith on the Lord… ye shall receive eternal life,” “…that ye may be lifted up…” “And may the Lord grant unto you repentance that ye may not bring down his wrath upon you, that ye may not be bound down by the chains of hell, that ye may not suffer the second death.” (Emphasis added). The Bible says that “if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9 and “that if thou shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved” (Romans 10:9-10). These are just a few verses of the Bible that leave us with the surety that if He has saved us then we can know for sure we are going to heaven. I have others but I don't want this post to get to long. Maybe next round of posting.

SNOW If you truly have accepted the Lord as you say then why do you all still teach that His sacrifice on the cross is not enough for salvation. If He is able to die for all the sins of all the people who ever lived even before we were born then WHY ISN'T HE ABLE TO COMPLETE WHAT HE STARTED IN EACH OF THOSE WHO HAVE BELIEVED. Mormonism teaches that even after all the holding onto the rod and reaching the tree of life and eating its fruit people can still fall away (Lehi's dream). Which is saying that we have to work for our salvation and even after doing all that is required still falling away. I refer to Romans 4:19-22 and Philippians 1:6 where in the 1st passage it says od Abraham that he believed even in his old age and then Paul says in the 2nd passage that he was confidant that what God had started He was able to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. To me the Gospel of Grace glorifies the Almighty God where the Gospel of Works makes it something people can boast about (look what I have done) which is contrary to Ephesians 2:8-10 and many other scriptures. SO IF YOU ACCEPTED THE GOD OF ALL TRUTH HE WILL SHOW YOU TRUTH FROM ERROR. All of us need to be asking God to show us the "fine points of deception" and to reveal all the facets of truth about Him. The Holy Spirit will honor that prayer and gradually show you as He has shown me those areas in my life that I had as untruth or sin. Once He reveals these untruths He asks that we believe Him above the traditions and beliefs we have held for so long and He will set us free. I had to jettison many beliefs from the "church of my youth" and follow Him rather than tradition and untruth. You must allow Him to do the same for you and Mormonism. ← IF YOU ACCEPTED THE G-D OF ALL TRUTH HE WILL SHOW YOU TRUTH FROM ERROR - Wow, how can someone that accepts G-d - sin after G-d has shown him the truth from error? Since the time that "He has shown me those areas in my life that I had as untruth or sin" (Your words) - have you sined? Even just a little one where you got mad at someone that did not deserve it? If your current church and religion has set you and everyone else there stright (ended devorce among its menbers - ended pride and envy and everything else bad) please send me the location where you all are - I'll be there Sunday to check it out. The Traveler The Traveler ← TRAVELER DON'T YOU RECALL MY POST ON ROMANS 7. In this passage even the great Apostle Paul who was used by God to write over half of the NT admits he sinned and struggled with sin. I too admit that I too often struggle with sin but I too like my namesake recognize the battle between the old man and the new man in Christ Jesus. The Apostle Paul at the end of Romans 7 and the beginning of Romans 8 states that the only one who could save such a wretch as him and me also is the Lord Jesus Christ. Then in Romans 8:1-9 we have these words: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. " Here the Apostle Paul makes it clear that as long as we follow the law of the Spirit, in other words let the Holy Spirit have His way then He will keep us from sin, however if we fall back in our old patterns, or fail to pray and seek God's guidance then we start following the law of the flesh once again which produces sin in us. No where in my previous posts have I ever said we will never sin and fail God after salvation for the Bible says we will but God is quick to forgive us when we through the conviction of the Holy Spirit once again confess those "post salvation " sins. These sins as I have said before are now covered by the blood of Jesus and they only affect the outcome of our reward in heaven (not Section 76 type of reward though). 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 clears this up: "For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. But if any man buildeth on the foundation gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble; each man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself shall prove each man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work shall abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire." Those things we do after salvation will also be judged by Jesus as to whether they were truly works we did to glorify the Lord (gold, silver, costly stones) or whether we did them for our own desires (wood, hay or stubble). If for our own desires these will be burned but the things that were done for God's glory will remain. It is not that we will never sin after salvation but that we have a God who is quick to wash these new sins with the precious blood of Jesus. Once again we come back to it is His grace (unmerited favor) that sets us free from sin and death TILL NEXT POST

SERG Let me first respond to your last post about the word "adieu". What you are now saying is that JS occasionally put in words from his own thinking that fit into the story line or what he was translating. HOW DO WE KNOW THEN WHAT ARE JS WORDS AND WHAT IS THE WORD FROM THE LORD? When one couples this with the testimonies of many of JS scribes there seems to be a contradiction. Some of the scribes say that JS sat with his head in his hat looking at the "seer" stone and that the plates weren't even around. They further say that JS read what he saw on the stone to his scribes they wrote it down and read it back to him. If the read-back words matched what JS saw on the stone the next part of the translation would come on the stone and they would proceed. But if the read-back didn't match then JS would correct what the scribes had gotten wrong. NOW THESE TESTIMONIES OF THE TRANSLATING PROCESS WOULD NOT REQUIRE JS TO ADD ANYTHING AND IT THEORETICALLY COULD BE CONSIDERED TRULY FROM GOD. If that is how it happened then JS claim that the BOM is the most correct book in the world would make sense. Now you say that JS added words and things as he felt necessary. Which testimony do we accept or do we accept either one? Now regarding the word "steel". You say it "is NOT referring to the steel we know, but a metal that yet was nor brass or bronze, but hard enough to be used to make arms..." Where in the Encyclopedia does one find this discussion of early metallurgy in Ancient America? Under what topic did you find this info about some other type of metal? From my extensive study on the Maya, Aztec and Incas I di not find anything indicating they had some other type of metal. Please give me a reference source as to where you obtained your information. Also regarding cement. Yes the BOM states that it was used in America! Then you ask "How in heaven or earth could a simple foolish boy without studies nor the economic potencial , know abou this, that was just recently discivered?" WELL HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF NEWSPAPERS? Something newly discovered like cement in 1827 would surely be the talk of town and in the newspapers. WHY CAN'T YOU ADMIT HE INSERTED THIS WORD ALSO IN THE DISCUSSION IF YOU ADMIT JS DID IT IN OTHER PLACES? Now I am waiting for my chocolates. Book of Ether does not call them ELEPHANTS. There is some other name which I can't remember now. Just as with the issue about cement the newspapers had much information about archeology in the America's. It is possible that someone discovered the remains of one of these beasts and JS added it to the BOM and gave them a name. OK where is my sneakers. As to windows: You said "It is not specific as to whether the windows would dash because of glass or anything likely." Then why even say they would not need them if they couldn't break. There must be areason why God would tell the brother of Jared to not include them. The instructions were specific in some ways about how he was to build these boats??? if that is what they were. Then tell me why God supposedly says they are not required. Then you said "If glass did not appear until the middle ages(though there has been discoveries on glass vessels before the time of Christ) , its irrelevant..." WHY IS IT IRREVALANT? First My original comments covered the history of glass-making and that a people from the Tower of Babel days would only have some references to glass beads and trinkets if that at all. So why does this brother of Jared have to be instructed not to put in glass windows if there was no such thing then. SEEMS TO ME IT IS VERY RELAVANT TO THE TOPIC ABOUT BOM STUMBLING BLOCKS THAT FIRST STARTED THIS THREAD. Can you address the other many BOM modern terms I mentioned in my earlier long post. You only addressed 3 of my long list. If you can do that then I will give you back your chocolates and sneakers. Till later posts

SNOW If you truly have accepted the Lord as you say then why do you all still teach that His sacrifice on the cross is not enough for salvation. If He is able to die for all the sins of all the people who ever lived even before we were born then WHY ISN'T HE ABLE TO COMPLETE WHAT HE STARTED IN EACH OF THOSE WHO HAVE BELIEVED. Mormonism teaches that even after all the holding onto the rod and reaching the tree of life and eating its fruit people can still fall away (Lehi's dream). Which is saying that we have to work for our salvation and even after doing all that is required still falling away. I refer to Romans 4:19-22 and Philippians 1:6 where in the 1st passage it says od Abraham that he believed even in his old age and then Paul says in the 2nd passage that he was confidant that what God had started He was able to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. To me the Gospel of Grace glorifies the Almighty God where the Gospel of Works makes it something people can boast about (look what I have done) which is contrary to Ephesians 2:8-10 and many other scriptures. SO IF YOU ACCEPTED THE GOD OF ALL TRUTH HE WILL SHOW YOU TRUTH FROM ERROR. All of us need to be asking God to show us the "fine points of deception" and to reveal all the facets of truth about Him. The Holy Spirit will honor that prayer and gradually show you as He has shown me those areas in my life that I had as untruth or sin. Once He reveals these untruths He asks that we believe Him above the traditions and beliefs we have held for so long and He will set us free. I had to jettison many beliefs from the "church of my youth" and follow Him rather than tradition and untruth. You must allow Him to do the same for you and Mormonism.

SERG and SNOW I thought I did answer the question as best I could in my previous post. But let me try again. Lets first define a few things: SAVED according to the Bible means we have absolute assurance through God's grace and the shed blood of Jesus that we are going to heaven (Not the heaven described in Section 76 of the D of C though). See 1 John 2:24-25 We have assurance of salvation by what Jesus did and not what we do to attain it or keep it. The Holy Spirit is given to us and live inside of us to be that guarantee of salvation. ACKNOWLEDGE means truly recognize that our sins is what separates each of us from Christ and that He died for those sins (past, present and future). "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:6-8). No works will ever make me presentable before the Lord if I haven't received Him as my personal Savior and Lord. Section 76 says a totally different story but we won't get into that now. REPENT means to turn 180 degrees away from the sin that so easily trips us up and choose to follow Jesus in what He calls us to do. Yes obedience, walking out our faith, doing the works He prepares for us is a "post-salvation" work by the Holy Spirit to complete the justification and sanctification process but we must realize it is still Him that is working in us and changing us from the inside out as I have posted before. Is this going to mean we never sin again - OF COURSE NOT. We will struggle with sin no matter how mature in the Lord we become. A key example of this is what Paul wrote in Romans 7:7-25 about his own personal struggle with sin many years after his Damascus Road experience Now to the question "If they do the A, B, C,'s of salvation are Mormons saved?" As I said before I believe that if the person whether a Mormon, Catholic, atheist, Hindu, etc. etc. truly acknowledges their sins to the Lord and truly accepts God's free gift of grace through the work of Jesus Christ and confesses the same with their mouth they are saved (Romans 10:9-10). The Bible clearly states that God is able to pick us up out of the miry clay and set us on a solid rock. Even the quicksand of Mormonism or the errors of Catholicism cannot keep God from pulling "His newly adopted child" out and setting them "guiltless" on the solid rock because of what He has done. However after salvation, you are continually asked by the Lord to examine ourselves and if He convicts you of a sin or sins that are being harbored we need to once again confess these before the Lord and recognize that He will cleanse us of these "post-salvation" sins which must be dealt with. Positionally, in Christ Jesus, these "post-salvation" sins have already been forgiven however He still asks us as part of the justification and sanctification process to recognize that we have sinned (1 John 1:5-10). After salvation the Holy Spirit will begin to show each us of areas of un-truth and sin in our lives and expose these areas often a little at a time. I would be really afraid if He revealed them all at once. Now for the Mormon He will start revealing things of untruth in the BOM, D of C, and other teachings of the LDbecausese they do not agree with the Bible (His Word). Now here is where the rubber meets the road. If you have done the A, B, C's as you have said then you better be believing the Bible for it is the revealed Word of God that we must measure all other teachings against including the BOM and D of C. This is where Mormons struggle because they have been totally misled to believe that the BOM is true and the Bible has errorbecausese the BOM says so (a circular argument if I ever saw one). If you don't start seeing this doctrinal error in the light of God's Word then one has to wonder whether you were really saved and meant what you stated when you made a profession of faith to the Lord Jesus (See 1 John 2:18-19). I hope this clears this issue up some more. If you still insist on the heavy yoke of working your way to salvation by your own strength and the Mormon teachings; and not take the easy yoke of salvation by Jesus shed blood then I pray that someday the burden will become so heavy that it will cause you to truly call upon Him for His grace and mercy and let Him truly be your personal Lord and Savior. I am sure this will cause some response from you all but it is as plain and loving that I can state the truth. Paul ← If this is so, and ONLY through Christ is everyone saved....*as i believe too*, why then are Zacariah and Elizabeth described in the gospels as "blameless" before the Lord? Coul such state of virtue and guiltless come from the law? I think not, but also that the prophets or anyone from the begining had to believe in some extent in the messiah to come in order to show sufficent faith as to be saved....dont you think? ← SERG You still miss the point I have made several times in that just like Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him righteouness. The same applies to Zacharias and Elisabeth (Luke 1:5-25) Verse 6 says the were "righteous before God" - IN OTHER WORDS THEY BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS COUNTED UNTO THEM RIGHTEOUSNESS. Out ot this righteousness from God flowed their ability "to walk in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless". Because they first believed they not only were able to walk in God's commandments but they also were blest by God with a long desired child even in their old age. It says that they desired to have a child and I would imagine that they prayed many times for a child. BUT AS I HAVE POSTED BEFORE IT IS THE SIMPLE PROCESS OF BELIEVING GOD AND TRUSTING HIM TO WORK OUT THE PLANS HE HAS FOR EACH OF US. Even the OT saints even though they didn't have the same revelation that we have as NT peoples can still be considered righteous before the Lord by simply BELIEVING GOD. It is as I have posted before about what we do but what God has done and will do. Again going back to Psalm 51:6 King David said "Behold you desire truth in my inward parts and in the hidden part thou shall make me know wisdom." King David understood that it is God working inside of us that will reveal truth. Then King David in verses 7-15 says a prayer of repentance to the Lord and then in verses 16-17 he states that it is not in the burnt sacrifices that God finds pleasure but in a "contrite and broken heart" which God won't despise. King David clearly understood even in OT times what it meant to live for the Lord. So the OT saints did not earn their righteousness by keeping the law they received it simply because they believed. SAME AS TODAY - GOD'S MESSAGE HAS NOT CHANGED.

SERG and SNOW I thought I did answer the question as best I could in my previous post. But let me try again. Lets first define a few things: SAVED according to the Bible means we have absolute assurance through God's grace and the shed blood of Jesus that we are going to heaven (Not the heaven described in Section 76 of the D of C though). See 1 John 2:24-25 We have assurance of salvation by what Jesus did and not what we do to attain it or keep it. The Holy Spirit is given to us and live inside of us to be that guarantee of salvation. ACKNOWLEDGE means truly recognize that our sins is what separates each of us from Christ and that He died for those sins (past, present and future). "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:6-8). No works will ever make me presentable before the Lord if I haven't received Him as my personal Savior and Lord. Section 76 says a totally different story but we won't get into that now. REPENT means to turn 180 degrees away from the sin that so easily trips us up and choose to follow Jesus in what He calls us to do. Yes obedience, walking out our faith, doing the works He prepares for us is a "post-salvation" work by the Holy Spirit to complete the justification and sanctification process but we must realize it is still Him that is working in us and changing us from the inside out as I have posted before. Is this going to mean we never sin again - OF COURSE NOT. We will struggle with sin no matter how mature in the Lord we become. A key example of this is what Paul wrote in Romans 7:7-25 about his own personal struggle with sin many years after his Damascus Road experience Now to the question "If they do the A, B, C,'s of salvation are Mormons saved?" As I said before I believe that if the person whether a Mormon, Catholic, atheist, Hindu, etc. etc. truly acknowledges their sins to the Lord and truly accepts God's free gift of grace through the work of Jesus Christ and confesses the same with their mouth they are saved (Romans 10:9-10). The Bible clearly states that God is able to pick us up out of the miry clay and set us on a solid rock. Even the quicksand of Mormonism or the errors of Catholicism cannot keep God from pulling "His newly adopted child" out and setting them "guiltless" on the solid rock because of what He has done. However after salvation, you are continually asked by the Lord to examine ourselves and if He convicts you of a sin or sins that are being harbored we need to once again confess these before the Lord and recognize that He will cleanse us of these "post-salvation" sins which must be dealt with. Positionally, in Christ Jesus, these "post-salvation" sins have already been forgiven however He still asks us as part of the justification and sanctification process to recognize that we have sinned (1 John 1:5-10). After salvation the Holy Spirit will begin to show each us of areas of un-truth and sin in our lives and expose these areas often a little at a time. I would be really afraid if He revealed them all at once. Now for the Mormon He will start revealing things of untruth in the BOM, D of C, and other teachings of the LDbecausese they do not agree with the Bible (His Word). Now here is where the rubber meets the road. If you have done the A, B, C's as you have said then you better be believing the Bible for it is the revealed Word of God that we must measure all other teachings against including the BOM and D of C. This is where Mormons struggle because they have been totally misled to believe that the BOM is true and the Bible has errorbecausese the BOM says so (a circular argument if I ever saw one). If you don't start seeing this doctrinal error in the light of God's Word then one has to wonder whether you were really saved and meant what you stated when you made a profession of faith to the Lord Jesus (See 1 John 2:18-19). I hope this clears this issue up some more. If you still insist on the heavy yoke of working your way to salvation by your own strength and the Mormon teachings; and not take the easy yoke of salvation by Jesus shed blood then I pray that someday the burden will become so heavy that it will cause you to truly call upon Him for His grace and mercy and let Him truly be your personal Lord and Savior. I am sure this will cause some response from you all but it is as plain and loving that I can state the truth. Paul