paul6150

I think your comments are mostly worthless. They consist mainly of "So" and "Refer to my 'so' comment. But for the sake of conversation, lets see if you can back up your rebuttals. What evidence do you have that Oliver Cowdery helped draft the BoM? ← SNOW I may not have any proof the Oliver Cowdery co-authored the BOM but there is much information that suggests that he was involved such as the fact that he was a teacher in the Vermont community where Ethan Smith (no relation to Joseph) a few years earlier wrote and published the book "A View of the Hebrews" which has similar stories of the rise and fall of ancient Indian groups who were part of the 10 lost tribes. Note also that it took a long time for the Smith/Harris combination to write the "lost 116 pages of manuscript" but when the Smith/Cowdery team took over they finished in record time. YES IT MAY BE SPECULATION ON MY PART BUT WHEN ONE LOOKS AT THESE FACTS PLUS THE MANY BORROWED BIBLE TEXTS, USE OF MODERN DAY TERMS THAT DON'T FIT IN THE BOM TIMELINE, ETC. ETC. ONE HAS TO CONSIDER THAT IT IS A POSSIBILITY THAT COWDERY ASSISTED IN PUTTING THE WORDS DOWN. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU READ ABOUT THE SMITH/COWDERY BREAK-UP AND SEE THAT IN THE BEGINNING COWDERY BELIEVED HE WAS KEY TO THE REVALTORY WORK BEING PUT TOGETHER. My speculation is as good as the story of Smith's many adventures before he was given the plates. None of us were there so we are asked to accept the word of Smith that he did indeed speak to the Father and Son together in the First Vision and that the Angel Moroni came in 1823 and so on and so on. What proof do you have that these events really happened other than you accept the words of Smith. How about when John the Baptist supposedly reappeared to Smith/Cowdery and baptized them into the Aaronic Priesthood. Again you only have these two guys word on the matter. So you all speculate it is true and I speculate it is not. Unless you were ther your speculation is no better off than mine. What about archeological proof that there was ever such a thing as Reformed Egypt. Surely there should be some proof of that to verify the claims.

I DON'T HAVE TIME TO ANSWER ALL TAOIST SAINT'S POINTS BUT I AGREE WITH PRISON CHAPLAIN. IF YOU AGREE THAT THESE QAULIFIERS VALIDATE THE BOM THEN YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THE KORAN AND MANY OTHER SO CALLED WORDS FROM GOD BY MANY OTHERS. NOW TO SOME OF THE SPECIFIC QUALIFIERS 1. Write a history of ancient Tibet covering a period from 600 B.C. to 450 A.D. Why ancient Tibet? Because you know no more about Tibet than Joseph Smith (or anyone else) knew about ancient America. MANY OF THE STORIES IN THE BOM ABOUT ANCIENT AMERICANS DO NOT REQUIRE ONE TO HAVE BEEN THERE. ANY PERSON WITH A VIVD IMAGINATION COULD COME UP WITH SIMILAR STORIES OF WAR AND DEATH. THEN BY PUTTING SOME BIBLE VERSES IN IT AND SOME OTHER BIBLE SOUNDING THINGS THEY COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT SOUNDS RELIGIOUS. 2. You are 23 years of age. THERE ARE MANY AUTHORS YOUNGER THAN THIS. 3. You have had no more than three years of formal school education, and have spent your life in backwoods farming communities. REFER BACK TO MY COMMENT ABOUT VIVID IMAGINATION AND STRYTELLING CAPABILITIES 4. Your history must be written on the basis of what you now know. There was no library that held information for Joseph Smith. You must use none. There is to be no research of any kind. THERE IS STILL NEWSPAPERS AND PEOPLE PASSING ON THE LATEST NEWS ABOUT SOME FINDINGS. ALSO REMEMBER OLIVER COWDERY WAS A SCHOOL TEACHER. HOW DO WE KNOW IF HE DIDN'T HELP THE DRAFT ALONG. 5. Your history must be 531 pages and over 300,000 words in length. MANY NON FICTION AS WELL AS FICTION BOOKS ARE THIS LONG 6. Other than a few grammatical corrections, you must have no changes in the text. The first edition as you dictate it to your secretary must stand forever. IF YOU COMPARE THE ORIGINAL TO THE BOM WE HAVE NOW YOU WILL FIND MORE THAN GRAMMATICAL CHANGES 7. This record is to contain the history of two distinct and separate nations, along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people. STILL COULD BE A VIVD IMAGINATION 8. You must describe their religious, economic, political, and social cultures and institutions. Cover every phase of their society, including the names of their coins. MANY STORIES TELL DETAILS LIKE THIS 9. Change your style of writing many times. Many ancient authors contributed to the Book of Mormon, each with his own style. NOT A LINGUIST SO I CAN'T COMMENT ON THIS ONE. ARE YOU A LINGUIST TO BE ABLE TO VALIDATE THIS? 10. Weave into your history the religion of Jesus Christ and the pattern of Christian living. AGAIN VIVID IMAGINATION PLUS A LOT OF BORROWING FROM THE BIBLE 11. You must claim that your smooth narrative is not fiction with moral value, but true and sacred history. MANY OTHERS HAVE DONE THIS 12. You must include in you book fifty-four chapters dealing with wars, twenty-one historical chapters, fifty-five chapters on visions and prophecies. Remember, when you begin to write visions and prophecies, you must have your record agree meticulously with the Bible. You must write seventy-one chapters on doctrine and exhortation, and you must check every statement with the scriptures or you will be proven a fraud. You must write twenty-one chapters on the ministry of Christ, and every thing you claim he said and every testimony you write in your book about Him must agree absolutely with the New Testament. I HAVE POSTED ELSEWHERE THAT THE BOM WORK DOES NOT AGREE WITH THE BIBLE 13. Many of the facts, claims, ideas, and statements given as absolute truth in your writing must be entirely inconsistent with the prevailing beliefs of the world. Some of these worldly beliefs must be the direct opposite of your claims. NOT SURE YOU CAN PROVE THEY ARE DIFFERENT FROM THE WORLD 14. Included in your narrations will be authentic modes of travel; whether or not those ancient people used fire; description of their clothing, crops, mourning customs, and types of government. You must invent about 280 new names that will stand up under scrutiny through the years as to their proper application and derivation. AGAIN VIVID STORYTELLING FROM SOMEONE WHO LIVED IN THE 1800'S 15. You will have to properly use figures of speech, similes, metaphors, narrations, exposition, descriptions, oratory, epic lyric, and parables. AGAIN STORYTELLING 16. You must invite the ablest scholars and experts to examine the text with care, and you must strive diligently to see that your book gets into the hands of those eager to prove it a forgery, and who are most competent to expose every flaw in it. MANY PEOPLE HAVE PROVED THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT SEEM FISHY ABOUT THE STORIES 17. Thorough investigation, scientific and historical evidence, and archeological discovery for the next 125 years must verify its claims and prove detail after detail to be true, for many of the details you put in your history are still buried beneath the soil of Tibet. NAME SOME QUALIFIED ARCHEOLOGISTS WHO SAY THEY USED THE BOM TO VERIFIY AN ARCHEOLOGICAL FINDING 18. You must publish it to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people declaring it to be the word of God and another witness for the Lord Jesus Christ. THE KORAN IS PUBLISHED TO THE WORLD AND HAS MANY ADHERENTS 19. The book must not contain any absurd, impossible, or contradictory statements. Your history must not contain any statement that will contradict any other statement elsewhere in the volume. EVEN FROM MY STUDIES I HAVE FOUND MANY PLACES WHERE THE BOM CONTRADICTS ITSELF 20. Many theories and ideas as to its origin must arise, and after discovering and examining the facts, they must fail. You have claimed that your knowledge had come from divine origin, and this claim continues to stand as the only possible explanation. The strength of this explanation must not decrease as time passes, but actually increases to the point where it becomes the only logical explanation. NAME A FEW OF THESE IF YOU WOULD 21. Your record is to fulfill many Bible prophecies, even in the exact manner in which it shall come forth, to whom delivered, its purposes, and its accomplishments. WHICH BIBLE PROPHECIES HAS IT FULFILLED 22. Call down an angel from heaven in the middle of the day and have him bear testimony to four honest, dignified citizens of your community that the record is the word of God. These witnesses must bear the angel's testimony to the world, not for profit or gain, but under great sacrifice and severe persecution, even to their death beds. You must put that testimony to the test by becoming an enemy to these men. I QUESTION THE COMMENT ABOUT "HONEST DIGNIFIED MEN" MUCH TESTIMONY ABOUT JS AND OTHERS TREASURE SEEKING 23. Thousands of great men, intellectual giants, national and international personalities, and scholars for 165 years must accept your history and its teachings even to the point of laying down their life rather than deny their testimony of it. PEOPLE USED TO THINK THE WORLD WAS FLAT. MANYM INTELLIGENT PEOPLE HELD ON TO THAT BELIEF SO IS THE WORLD FLAT AFTER ALL 24. You must include with within the record this promise: "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, He will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost." CAREFUL WHAT YOU ASK FOR SOMETIMES WE RECEIVE OUR OWN THOUGHTS AND THINK THEY CAME FROM GOD. GOT TO COMPARE IT WITH PREVIOUS WORDS FROM GOD 25. Missionaries must bear record to the world for the next 165 years that they know the record to be true because they put the promise to the test and found it to be true. The truth of it was manifested to them by the power of the Holy Ghost. KORAN FITS IN THAT CATEGORY ALSO 26. Over 52,900 plus competent salesman must be so sold on your book that they gladly give up two or more years of their lives to take it to all parts of the world for distribution. They not only pay their own way during these years, but return bearing testimony that the time spent will remain as one of the highlights of their lives. They receive nothing in return for their efforts but the joy of having shared your book with others. JEHOVAH WITNESSES SPEND HOURS OUT ON THE STREETS DOES THAT MAKE THERE TEACHING CORRECT ALSO 27. Your book must not only raise the standards of millions of people but do it in such a way that they become one of the great moral, ethical, and dynamic marvels of the day. They must become world renowned for this. MANY TEACHERS OUT THERE DO THE SAME TO STUDENTS EVERY YEAR 28. For the next 20 years you must watch those that follow and you, your family, and the dearest of your loved ones persecuted, driven time after time from their homes, beaten, tortured, starved, frozen and killed. Tens of thousands must undergo the most extreme hardships in your presence just because they believe your claims concerning the origin and content of what you have written on ancient Tibet. MANY OF THE THINGS THEY CALL PERSECUTION WERE BROUGHT ON BY THEMSELVES WHEN THEY TRIED TO TAKE LEGAL THINGS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS. THEY WEREN'T AS INNOCENT AS YOU SEEM TO PRESENT 29. You must gain no wealth from your work, but many times lose all that you have. Like those that believe you, you must submit yourself to the most vile persecution. And finally after 20 years of this, give your own life in a very savage and brutal manner, for your testimony concerning your history book. This must be done willingly on your part. THE LAW FINALLY CAUGHT UP WITH HIM FOR BURNIG THE PRESS OF A RIVAL PAPER. CAN'T SAY HE DIED AS A MARTYR BECAUSE HE HAD GUNS TO FIGHT BACK WITH. MOST MARTYRS DON'T HAVE TO FIGHT BACK TO DIE FOR THEIR FAITH 30. Start right now and produce this record which covers 1,000 years of history, doing it, not in the peaceful atmosphere of your community, but under the most trying of circumstances which include being driven from your home several times, and receiving constant threats upon your life. Please have your book completed, talk a friend into mortgaging his farm to raise money to have it printed - all in 60 days. IT TOOK THEM MORE THAN 60 DAYS TO TRANSLATE IT WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH 60 DAYS There is only one answer: The Book of Mormon is a divine record. If not, its origin must be stated and its claims must be explained by the critic. It isn't enough to merely discard it as false and forget about it! IT FIRST MUST BE EXAMINED IN LIGHT OF THE BIBLE GOD'S ORIGINAL WORD THEN WE WILL DETERMINE IF IT IS DIVINE OR FALSE The first thing to do in examining any ancient text (IF IT IS ANCIENT? ) SOME REAL SERIOUS CONCERNS IT IS NOT... since historical forgery is virtually impossible. MANY FICTIONAL STORIES DECLARE THEY ARE HISTORICAL SO BRIEFLY TAOIST SAINT I THINK YOU HAVEN'T PROVED YOUR POINT ABOUT THE BOM BEING FROM GOD. SIMPLE ANSWERS AS SHOWN ABOVE CAN CONTRADICT WHAT YOU CLAIM ARE VALIDATION POINTS.

LIONHEART So of I understand your last post correctly you basically "write off" the testimonies of those key individuals that were there with JS (Martin Harris, David Whittmer, Emma Smith and I am sure there are others) when the "translation process" occurred simply because they didn't follow Brigham Young to SLC. As you said Emma Smith "was probably the most credible source, because she was the wife of Joseph Smith" and she believed in him. Just because she joined the RLDS after the death of JS doesn't exclude "her from being a reliable source". She still believed in her husband and the BOM till her death so how can one exclude her testimony. Along with this thought then why does every copy of the BOM still contain David Whittmer's testimony as one of the 3 witnesses. You can't have it both ways. Whittmer never rejoined the LDS like some say Cowdery and Harris did which that is up for debate also. In fact many of the 8 witnesses never went the LDS route either do you throw out their testimony also? Seems like a double standard to take their testimony in one area and not take it in another. You said you have read "the personal journal of Joseph Smith, and the seerstone was never mentioned; only the urim and thummim." I think you are a bit naive in thinking that JS never used the "seer stone". There is far too much testimony from friend and foe alike that state JS used a seer stone. He was even convicted in court for "glass-looking". In fact if you check it out I believe there are 3 of JS's seer stones in the LDS Presidents Vault. I can't think that a rational person could ever say "perhaps someone got the two stories crossed". You ask "Who is to say that there was or wasn't such a language in existence as we don't have the plates to prove it." Hey, you are right in the fact that the plates are not here as we are told they were given back to "Moroni". But if the ancestors of the Aztecs, Inca and Maya Indians were these "Nephites and Lamanites" then why doesn't the descendants still use this language? Why do they not have any evidence of religious or historical writings that are on metal plates? Where is the archeological evidence that this language existed? They didn't live in a vacuum, surely there would be some supporting evidence somewhere in "BOM territory". Can you point to some credible evidence that such a language existed? I am glad you "stand behind you 100% concerning the fact that modern doctrine cannot contradict earlier doctrine. Otherwise it is false." So you need to go in with "eyes open" to seek the truth. Ask the Lord Jesus to help you look at the "fine points of deception" as He asked me several years ago to do. Be one who studies to prove themselves as a profitable servant of the Lord. Along with the stumbling blocks regarding the "gold plates" I ask you go back and read my earlier posts (Posts 34, 38 and 42) to see some other stumbling blocks.

LIONHEART WHATEVER THE CASE we're back to the fact that the Professor Anthon story cannot be relied upon to test the veracity of the claims by JS and MH. This is because we have two conflicting stories as to what happened in the interaction. So we move on to the thing I said in the last post. "So we must look for other things to verify the veracity and truth of what JS claims as his translation process. You haven't countered the number of other items about how the translation process occurred (seer stone versus interpreters), plates there or not there, lots of wordiness in the BOM, capacity of the 2" of plates, and so on." There must be explanations to these things that would help one believe JS and others testimonies as to what he did in translating the BOM. Each or any of them could be damaging to JS credibility as a prophet. Yes I agree that the comparison of testimony about JS being a prophet and the testimony of Jesus being the Son of God could be similar but you forget that there are other things that must be used to evaluate anyone who calls themselves a prophet of God. He is saying he is hearing directly from God and what he hears must agree with already existing WORDS FROM GOD. If they don't then we have to reject the one who calls themselves a prophet of God. That is what this "thread of discussion" is all about (stumbling blocks to the BOM). All I was posting in my long previous posts were several things that could be stumbling blocks for someone to believe the BOM story. I just wanted to see what the Mormons have for answers to these concerns. I am sure it is not the first time it has been brought up before.

LIONHEART Nice try I am already aware of the story about Professor Anthon and JS and MH attempt (or so called attempt) to authenticate the translation. However if one reads Professor Anthon's statement that describes this incident with Martin Harris one will find it doesn't match the story that Martin Harris and Smith came up with. Now who do we believe here? In fact there is a D of C so called prophecy about this whole incident trying to tie this to an Isaiah text I believe. It has been awhile since I reviewed this material so I may not have all my facts totally straight but the general gist is correct. As you said this can't be verified because there is two conflicting statements as to what happened or didn't happen. So we must look for other things to verify the veracity and truth of what JS claims as his translation process. You haven't countered the number of other items about how the translation process occurred (seer stone versus interpreters), plates there or not there, lots of wordiness in the BOM, capacity of the 2" of plates, and so on. NOW I DO DISAGREE WITH YOUR STATEMENT "No amount of science or reasoning can prove that Jesus was the son of God either. We depend on the spirit to verify it for us." There is much evidence to prove that Jesus was the Son of God. First we have His many statements that He was indeed the Son of God as declared in the Bible; We have the testimony of those who followed Him and some of this testimony is also found in the Bible. We have the testimony of non-Christians such as Josephus and Pliny that say Jesus claimed He was the Son of God. Now these non-Christians may not have believed but they wrote about His claiming to be God. We have the proof that the entire civilized world was dramatically affected by the entire Christian movement within a few hundred years. We have much archeological evidence that He existed and claimed He was God. No I do agree that we weren't there and it does require faith on our part to believe but with all of the evidence that He is who He claimed to be - it becomes very provable and acceptable. 2 Timothy 1:12 has these words "... Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him for that day." Paul did not see Jesus in the physical but He saw enough evidence of His work in his life and the life of others that he trusted Jesus even to martyrdom.

SO LIONHEART Joseph Smith could insert anything he thought fit with the characters that were supposedly on the plates. Then how do we know it is true since we can't verify the original translation process? The "golden plates" are not around (if they ever were here) anymore. How do we know that Smith didn't just insert anything and everything he wanted to because that is what he thought the character was saying? Furthermore, the witnesses testified he didn't use the plates during the translation process but used the seer stone in his hat and the hat to his face. How can you say he looked at the characters on the plates if he didn't use the plates? Seems contradictory.

MORONI All I can say is HUHHH!! I guess I couldn't determine exactly what part of my long comment your note was about. Can you point out what you were referring to and why you feel it is wrong.

Actually "Adieu" does have a seperate distinct meaning than "good-bye" or even "bonjour" Adieu means good-bye for a very long if not eternal ammount of time. When you leave for work for the day its "Bonjour". But when you are going away to college, moving far away, or saying your goodbyes at a funeral....its "Adieu" So, I guess it WAS/IS the best word for the translation after all. Sorry to burst your bubble Jason. ← SORRY ABOUT THE LENGTH OF THIS POST BUT IT NEEDED TO BE PUT ALL OUT THERE FOR COMMENT. One of the biggest stumbling blocks of the Book of Mormon that must be overcome is the implausible story of how it all started. BOOK OF MORMON PLATES As one studies about the Book of Mormon whether from a pro or con viewpoint they will encounter a description of the so called “golden plates” that Joseph Smith allegedly translated from to bring forth the Book of Mormon. This summary hopefully will help one understand whether to accept or reject the often told story of how the Book of Mormon came forth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Plates has this information about the “golden plates”. Other cultures have kept records on metal plates, and those found to date have been extremely thin, so as to facilitate their being engraven into with a pointed utensil. For utilitarian reasons alone, to make it both easier and feasible, the plates would need to be thin enough to allow depressions to be made into them simply by applying pressure, rather than having to scratch and dig as thicker plates would necessitate. Michael R. Ash points to the discovery of objects made from “tumbaga”, gold-copper alloy in South America. He writes that using this alloy would make the plates more rigid and lighter. This claim is congruent with William Smith's idea that the plates might be part gold and part copper. Orichalcum, the legendary metal of Atlantis and the Temple of Solomon, is held by many to match this same description. In 500 B.C (concurrent with the Book of Mormon), Darius the Great of Persia inscribed his history on a gold plate and sealed it in a stone box in the temple at Persepolis. The BBC wrote a news story about a six page gold book on display in Bulgaria. This is claimed to be the world's oldest multiple-page book. The book is written in the lost Etruscan language. From this and other articles found in an internet search, there appears, on the surface, to be some evidence of Joseph Smith’s and others claims that there indeed was a set of “golden plates” that were instrumental in the bringing forth of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith claimed that the Angel Moroni came in 1823 and told him about these “golden plates” that had the recorded history and teachings of ancient inhabitants of the Americas. These plates also described the appearance of Jesus Christ to the Americas after his death and resurrection in Israel. These plates were supposedly buried by Moroni in 421 AD to be later removed from their hiding place by Joseph Smith on September 22, 1827 near his New York home. I won’t present the many controversial claims of others about Joseph Smith’s character before and during the time he allegedly obtained the “golden plates” but will spend more time on whether the description of these “golden plates” is plausible based on the wikipedia.org article. What is Tumbaga? A number of Mormons have suggested that the “gold plates” weren’t actually pure gold but were made of “tumbaga”, a metal made of gold and copper (estimated at 8 to 12 carat gold). These Mormons estimate the weight of the “gold plates” (6” wide, 8” long and 6” thick) made of tumbaga would weigh between 53 and 86 pounds. There are some Mormons who claim like Joseph Smith that the plates were of pure gold. If the “gold plates” were of pure gold they could have easily weighed over 200 pounds which would make it hard to lift as many of Smith’s family and friends testify. An LDS organization, FARMS promotes this tumbaga theory based on William Smith’s (brother of Joseph Jr.) statement the plates were made of a mixture of gold and copper. This seems strange since there was never an attempt by Joseph Smith to have the material analyzed. Additionally William Smith admitted he had never seen the plates so how could he say they were gold and copper. His testimony was that he was allowed to lift the plates that were inside of a pillow-case. Despite the effort of FARMS to promote the tumbaga theory it still is not being taken to seriously. Even the May 15, 1999 issue of the LDS Church News claimed that Joseph Smith in 1827 “was entrusted with plates of solid gold which he had been translating by the power of the Spirit” (http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/how-heavy.html). The LDS scholars have failed to show any evidence that native Americans ever recorded their history or religious texts on metal sheets during the Book of Mormon timeline. Capacity of the Plates to Hold All That Was Claimed Joseph Smith described the specific size of the plates and that a portion of the plates were sealed. The unsealed part, according to Smith, had small and beautifully engraved characters. Apostle Orson Pratt indicated that 2/3 of the plates were sealed. So the entire Book of Mormon text (522 pages) and the 116 “lost manuscript pages” had to have been on 1/3 of the plates (loose leaf plates a total of 2” thick). The Mormons claim that a metal plate of Persia (Darius Tablet) is about the size of the Book of Mormon plates; however, this tablet of a declaration made by King Darius written in 3 different scripts thus only containing one paragraph of actual text (eight lines of cuneiform writing written in 3 languages). The engravings on the King Darius tablet are relatively large and widely spaced. How is this example of an ancient writing proving the entire Book of Mormon and the lost 116 pages could be on similar material? Mormons also claim that the copper scroll found in the Dead Sea Scrolls is another example of writing on metal. However, if one examines the photo of this copper scroll it demonstrates only a small amount of engraving is on the metal plus the engraving process pushes right through the plate. Obviously it would be hard to engrave on both sides of the very thin plates thus further complicating the claim the entire Book of Mormon is on only 2” of thin metal plates. Also there is no archeological evidence that describe the use of sets of metal plates in ancient civilizations of the Book of Mormon time period. (www.usc.edu/dept/LAS?wsrp/educational_site/dead_sea_scrolls/copperscroll_e.shtml) The Book of Mormon also describes “plates of brass” (1 Nephi 4:38); “plates of ore” (Mosiah 21:27); “plates of gold” (Mosiah 28:11); “plates of Nephi” (1 Nephi 9:1-4); and the “plates of Jacob” (Jacob 3:14). This is quite impressive but one has to ask wouldn’t it be awkward to transport them around. The Bible describes the transmission of the Bible text on leather, papyrus and parchment materials which would be much more transportable and easy to use. Where is the evidence of Near East or New World religious text or history recorded on such extensive plates? Where does the Bible describe the use of metal plates? Obviously the Book of Mormon text is way to long plus the use of metal plates would have been expensive and difficult to engrave, for such a description as described in the Book of Mormon to be true. Why so Much Wordiness in the Book of Mormon? Related to the capacity issue, noted above, is the places in the Book of Mormon that have a lot of additions that are very wordy but of very little additional value to the teaching. Considering that only 2” of plates were available to engrave the Book of Mormon plus lost 116 pages on, it would seem that the author would be very brief and not wordy. Several places the Book of Mormon author noted the lack of space on the plates and the lack of ore to make more plates. WHY ADD THESE LONG NARRATIVES OR REPEATS FROM THE BOOK OF ISAIAH, THE GOSPELS, ETC.? One example is 3 Nephi 21:2-7. This passage is a single sentence with 340 words in it. Although the Bible has many long sentences, they were writing on manuscripts and not struggling with the process of engraving on metal plates. It is estimated that 21 chapters of Isaiah are included in the Book of Mormon and some or part of those Isaiah passages are repeated several times. Since the Nephites supposedly had the entire Book of Isaiah on the “brass plates” why recopy it onto the “gold plates”? Plates Found in a Stone Box and the 10 Lost Hebrew Tribes Legends When the King Darius tablet was found it was found in a stone box. There are Mormons claiming that this proves Joseph Smith’s description of where he found the “gold plates”. Smith claimed he found the plates along with some other items in a stone box. Mormons ask “How would Joseph Smith know that ancient people used to place important things in stone boxes?” This can simply be explained that during Joseph Smith’s early years there were many newspaper articles about Indians burying their dead in stone boxes similar to the one Smith described. Much rumor and discussion of the Indian burial mounds in and around New York State were common at that time. Stone boxes of various sizes and shapes had reportedly been found in Kentucky, Missouri, New York, Ohio, Tennessee and other places. It was reported by some that these Indian boxes contained various metal plates with engraving on them. Metal plates were claimed to be found by others throughout this time period thus making it “fertile ground” for the development of the legend of the “lost Indian book”. Congregational minister Ethan Smith (no relation to Joseph Smith) wrote a book (View of the Hebrews) in 1825 based on the premise that the Indians once had such a book engraved on metal plates. Ethan Smith’s book was a compilation of popular opinions about the origins of the American Indians who supposedly descended from the 10 lost Hebrew tribes. An interesting fact in the Book of Mormon storyline is that Oliver Cowdery, one of Joseph Smith’s closest friends and scribe for much of the Book of Mormon translation, had come from the same town (Poultney, Vermont) as had Ethan Smith. Joseph Smith’s boyhood home in Sharon, Vermont is only 40 miles from Poultney, Vermont. Additionally, Ethan Smith’s book, View of the Hebrews, was also widely read in New York State. Another author of that time, Josiah Priest had published two books stating a similar thesis to that of Ethan Smith. In one of Priest’s books, The Wonders of Nature and Providence Displayed (editions printed in 1825 and 1826) he concluded that over 40 writers of that time period believed that the Indians had descended from the 10 lost Hebrew tribes. Ethan Smith’s book also describes: 1) Indians as descendants from the Hebrews; 2) the savage tribes wiped out their civilized brethren; 3) sacred books were transmitted down through the generations and then buried in a hill to be found later; 4) like the Book of Mormon, it identifies the American Indians as the “stick of Joseph or Ephraim”, the tribe of Joseph which would be reunited with the stick of Judah (the Jews- Chapter 37 of Ezekiel); and, 5) the need to awaken and convert the Indians back to their “scriptural heritage”. Did Joseph Smith Actually Need the “Gold Plates” or the Interpreters? A big question that needs to be addressed is that during the translation process did Joseph Smith actually read from the “golden plates” or was some other means used to bring forth the words? Several eyewitnesses and scribes for the translation process described the entire process as follows: “Joseph Smith would place the seer stone in his hat and put his face into the hat and would dictate hour after hour with the plates either laying in a pillowcase beside them or hidden away in the woods”. Some of the people who testified as such were: Emma Smith (Joseph’s wife), Isaac Hale (Emma’s father), David Whitmer and Martin Harris. According to Joseph Smith, the Angel Moroni informed him that along with the “golden plates” he would find the interpreters (Urim and Thummim). This device consisted of two stones mounted in silver bows and connected to a breastplate. Smith stated that “God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.” Martin Harris did claim that Smith used the interpreters for the translation of the “lost 116 pages” but after awhile for convenience reasons began using the “seer stone” Smith had found while digging Willard Chase’s well. This is unusual in that God supposedly preserved the interpreters for the express purpose of translating the book but a rock found in a well worked just as well as God’s specially prepared device just because the rock was more convenient. What About the Golden Plates That BBC Reported About? This BBC report, in May 2003, was about the display of the world's oldest multiple-page book, in the lost Etruscan language which now is on display in Bulgaria's National History Museum in Sofia. This unique artifact consisted of six bound sheets of 24 carat gold, with illustrations of a horse with rider, a mermaid, a harp and soldiers with a small amount of text. This small manuscript is estimated to be 2500 years old and was discovered 60 years ago in a tomb in Southwestern Bulgaria. There are around 30 similar pages known in the world except they are not linked together in a book like this one. Bulgarian linguist Vladimir Georgiev is working on a translation of the text. The Etruscans, one of Europe's most mysterious ancient peoples, were wiped out by the conquering Romans in the fourth century BC, leaving few written records. By 200 BC, the Etruscan language was already replaced by Latin except for some isolated communities. A web site that has a considerable discussion about this ancient language and people is - http://www.maravot.com/frame197618.html.Another web site that discusses a similar find in Italy is - http://users.tpg.com.au/etr/etrusk/po/pyrgi.html. The only surviving Etruscan book, Liber Linteus, was written on linen and survived by being used as mummy wrappings. The Tabula Capuana, a terra cotta slab now conserved in Berlin, represents the second most extensive surviving Etruscan text. The third longest Etruscan inscription is the cast bronze inscription found at Cortona in 1992. The Pyrgi Tablets, found in a 1964 excavation of a sanctuary, consists of three golden leaves the record of a temple dedication made around 500 BC, to the Phoenician goddess Ashtart. These tablets are now held at the National Etruscan Museum of Villa Giulia, Rome. First Plate, of the Pyrgi Tablets, was Written in Etruscan and translates as follows: “That temple and these Hermes idols are dedicated to Uni-Astre, built by the clanspeople. Tiberius Velianas the pleasing aedicula has given. That burial of his own by these priests with idols was encircled. For three years [in the month of] Churvar, with Her burnt offerings, with idols [it was] buried. During the reign of the chief, in Her hand [he] would be brought forth (ie: Uni-Astre gave him authority to rule). And with these Hermes idols, the year(s) shall endure as the stars.” Second Plate, of the Pyrgi Tablets, was Written in Etruscan and translates as follows: “When Thefarie Velianas had built the statue of the sanctuary [in] the month of Masan, Uni was pleased. The votives of the temple yearly have been as numerous as the stars.” The third plate is written in Phoenician and generally paraphrases the text of the first two plates. We do not know the reason why King Thefarie Velianas dedicated a sanctuary to the goddess and wrote his dedication both in Etruscan and Phoenician on golden plates. Perhaps he wanted to get into the good graces of his powerful allies. NOW DOES THE FINDING OF THESE ANCIENT METAL PLATES VALIDATE WHAT JOSEPH SMITH AND OTHERS STATED ABOUT THE “GOLDEN PLATES”. Similar to the discussion in “Capacity of the Plates to Hold All That Was Claimed” above, these Etruscan metal plates do not contain enough text to say they contain anywhere near the volume of words required to be on the “golden plates”. Also the Etruscan plates were only written on one side. Summary After evaluating all of these issues it becomes obvious that Smith’s claim to having found “golden plates” which he used to translate the Book of Mormon is highly unlikely. Joseph Smith once said that Mormonism either stands or falls on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Either the Book of Mormon is what Smith said it is or it is an out-in-out deception. It is up to whoever reads this to make a decision. IS IT TRUE OR IS IT A LIE?

Yes, and Im not even Mormon. ← LET ME HELP THE “SON OF PAUL” IN THIS BATTLE ABOUT WHAT IF’S These are some very good “what if questions” because all who are students of the truth must ask these types of questions everyday. We must base truth on sound evidence, solid teaching and tested documentation. We can’t test truth on: hearsay evidence without checking it out ourselves; personal feelings that are relied on can lead to accept an untruth based on how I felt at the moment; and so on. We must first start by ask a much broader question first. How do we know that anything is true? How do we test any claims of truth? The answer to these two questions is: we test to see what is truth through observation, experimentation, examination, eyewitnesses and scientific evidence. For example, one must test historical claims measured by the common standards of historical research. Any claims, for truth, generally, will be verified by some other documentation or scientific evidence. These claims of truth must also be tested for rationality. Is it logically consistent and coherent? The Bible has, through thousands of years, been claimed as a standard of truth. One of the most astonishing things, of course, is that the Bible has literally thousands of testable historical prophecies, cases in which events were clearly foretold, and both the foretelling and the fulfillment is a matter of historical record. We must also examine the Book of Mormon, by these same methods to see if it is a source of truth, as claimed by Smith and others. Conversely, if, like many other so called statements about the truth, of a particular belief system, it falls by the way side as false teaching and erroneous beliefs. So let’s examine of the responses to the what if questions posed by SON OF PAUL BEN RAINES SAID: “I believe that God continues to communicate with his children whom he loves.” HEY, WE FOUND SOMETHING WE AGREE ON BUT THEN YOU NARROW DOWN YOUR STATEMENT TO ONLY “living prophets today”. I am assuming you are referring to the LDS seer, prophet, and revelator. I agree God hasn’t “closed the heavens” and speaks to every one of us today if we will listen!! But I think you are limiting your focus to only the “living prophets in the LDS church” which is where you are in error. Peter declared in Acts 2:17 that when the Holy Spirit falls on His people the “sons and daughters shall prophesy”. Acts 21:9 states Philip had 4 daughters that all prophesied. Paul states in Romans 12:4-6 that the believers shall prophesy according to the proportion of faith they have. Paul states in 1 Corinthians 14:1, 24, 39 that there would be many who prophesy as the Holy Spirit moves in them. Paul even goes so far as to say “covet to prophesy”. So my take on this is that God never intended prophecy to be only one individual as the LDS teach. So SON OF PAUL is correct in asking the question “Does God speak to normal people like you and me” or does he only speak through only the (living) prophets? I believe that God speaks through many prophets today. However, in all cases, the prophecies must be compared to a standard of truth that will test to see if it is really God speaking as He spoke in the past. This is where it gets difficult for there are many false prophets out there. So since the Bible has been tested and verified as the Word of God then we should be checking any new prophecies against it to verify the veracity of the “so called prophecy”. LINDY asked some more “what if” questions but I didn’t see anything there to further respond to except if she accepts the Lord Jesus as her personal Savior as I have posted elsewhere then we will meet in heaven. JOSIE apparently got a little upset over the “what if questions”. SON OF PAUL was only asking the dramatic questions to make one think. Paul stated in 2 Corinthians 13:5 “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith, test yourselves. Do you realize that Christ Jesus is in you – unless of course you fail the test.” So we are to ask the what if questions. JOSIE goes on to talk about the LDS church has withstood “mobs, murder, threatenings, fire, and much, much more.” I don’t disagree with that but SON OF PAUL’S question was about the BOM. The JOSIE states the “Book of Mormon is being used to find ruins of cities in central and south America.” Please provide some proof from known and respected archeologists as to the veracity of this claim. And to base your truth on the statement that the “LDS Church is one of the fastest growing churches in the World” does not prove anything. Communism was at one time the fastest growing form of government but it was based on a lie. So for the most part it has fell by the wayside. JIGGYPOO says he will have lived a good life based on what he perceived as truth. That doesn’t answer the question asked. If it is not true then why do you live by a lie why not search out the truth. If JS told some “tall tales” which he was known to do then those who follow him blindly also will have to account for their belief before God. JIGGYPOO then makes a great statement in “I know my God and His great compassion and infinite goodness. I know my sins are remitted through His Son. I do not fear the judgment bar of God. I know in whom I have trusted.” I hope and pray you are basing this statement on the acceptance of Jesus as your personal Savior. JIGGYPOO says the “Mormons believe the Bible to be divinely inspired but that portions have been removed or changed”. The BOM states that the Bible has the “fullness of the everlasting gospel”… and that the BOM “contains, as does the Bible, the fullness of the everlasting gospel”. After this one statement in the Introduction of the LDS version of the BOM there a systematic tearing down of the statement that the Bible “contains the fullness of the everlasting Gospel”. For example read the 6th paragraph of the same Introduction which quotes Joseph Smith as saying “…Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than any other book”. This statement leaves the impression that the BOM is superior to the Bible and should be trusted more. 2N 29:8, 10 also tear down the Bible by saying “plain and precious” things have been removed. If one studies out the dissemination process of the New Testament in the early church they would find it very hard to say there was a systematic removal of these things. JIGGYPOO you are basing your premise on what the BOM, JS and other Mormon teachers have told you to believe. Study out the NT dissemination process as I have said and verify it. I will have to stop here because I have run out of time to respond at this time. I will work on the rest of the responses later.

TRAVELER THOSE OF US WHO ARE POSTING ON THIS SITE WHO ARE NOT LDS HAVE NOT INDICATED THAT OBEYING THE COMMANDMENTS OR GOOD WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY AFTER THE SALVATION EXPERIENCE. What we have said is that when we surrender to God and accept His free gift of salvation through the work of Christ Jesus that "God" from that point on will work in us and through us to glorify Himself. Therefore works will happen as we surrender but they will be Him working through us, helping us to love our neighbor, helping us to not be a stingy person but instead to be giving person, etc. etc. That is what we are saying nothing more nothing less as to the work of God after salvation and our adoption into God's family. Now on the contrary the BOM and LDS teaching continue to require one in their own strength to keep commandments with only a "maybe" they will be saved. For example I ask you look up these BOM passages: Mosiah 18:8-13 (Mosiah 9:38-44 RLDS) presents some of Alma’s teaching on what was necessary to join the “fold of God and to be called his people” and to be granted eternal life. Some of these criterions are as follows: 1). “Willing to bear one another’s burdens” 2). “Willing to mourn with those that mourn.” 3). Comfort those who need comfort 4). “Stand as witnesses of God at all times, and in all things and in all places … even until death.” 5). Be baptized in the name of the Lord. 6). Serve him and keep his commandments… “Serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body.” Alma further instructed the people that after they performed all of these things “ye may be redeemed of God…ye may have eternal life…and may he grant unto you eternal life…” (Emphasis added). As noted the BOM sets up a whole list of works that need to be completed and maybe, just maybe, God will redeem you and grant you eternal life. Whatever happened to “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but has everlasting life… He that believes on Him is not condemned but he that does not believe is already condemned because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:16, 18 (emphasis added). Alma 7:14 (Alma 5:24-25 RLDS) The first part of this verse emphasizes the need to “repent and be born again…” but then emphasizes the need to “be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God….” (Emphasis added). Later in verse 16 (verse 28 RLDS) we read “And whosoever doeth this, and keepeth the commandments of God from thenceforth… he shall have eternal life….” The BOM continues to place considerable emphasis on being baptized and keeping the commandments (our works) in order to be saved or maybe saved. Alma 9:11-14, Alma 38:1 (Alma 7:12-17, Alma 18:1 RLDS) These passages first state that one is saved by “his matchless power, and his mercy, and his long suffering towards us…” and except we repent “ye can in nowise inherit the Kingdom of God.” As in many other parts of the BOM, within a few verses of the correct message (God saves us by the work of Jesus Christ and His grace), we find such statements as “Inasmuch as ye will not keep my commandments ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord.” The Lamanites didn’t keep the commandments of God and “they have been cut from the presence of the Lord.” Keeping the commands of the Lord is necessary to staying in the presence of the Lord. This idea is true, to a limited extent, in that if we don’t keep His commands He can’t work with us as well, however, the Bible emphasizes that He will be with the believer “at all times” and He will not leave or forsake us (Hebrews 13:5-6). The BOM suggests that if one doesn’t keep the commandments they could end up in “endless damnation” (Mosiah 16:11 LDS, Mosiah 8:84-85 RLDS). Alma 13:29-30 (Alma 10:29-30 RLDS) mixes the grace and works message in that it states: “Having faith on the Lord… ye shall receive eternal life,” “…that ye may be lifted up…” “And may the Lord grant unto you repentance that ye may not bring down his wrath upon you, that ye may not be bound down by the chains of hell, that ye may not suffer the second death.” (Emphasis added). The Bible says that “if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9 and “that if thou shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved” (Romans 10:9-10). These are just a few verses of the Bible that leave us with the surety that if He has saved us then we can know for sure we are going to heaven. I have others but I don't want this post to get to long. Maybe next round of posting.

SNOW If you truly have accepted the Lord as you say then why do you all still teach that His sacrifice on the cross is not enough for salvation. If He is able to die for all the sins of all the people who ever lived even before we were born then WHY ISN'T HE ABLE TO COMPLETE WHAT HE STARTED IN EACH OF THOSE WHO HAVE BELIEVED. Mormonism teaches that even after all the holding onto the rod and reaching the tree of life and eating its fruit people can still fall away (Lehi's dream). Which is saying that we have to work for our salvation and even after doing all that is required still falling away. I refer to Romans 4:19-22 and Philippians 1:6 where in the 1st passage it says od Abraham that he believed even in his old age and then Paul says in the 2nd passage that he was confidant that what God had started He was able to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. To me the Gospel of Grace glorifies the Almighty God where the Gospel of Works makes it something people can boast about (look what I have done) which is contrary to Ephesians 2:8-10 and many other scriptures. SO IF YOU ACCEPTED THE GOD OF ALL TRUTH HE WILL SHOW YOU TRUTH FROM ERROR. All of us need to be asking God to show us the "fine points of deception" and to reveal all the facets of truth about Him. The Holy Spirit will honor that prayer and gradually show you as He has shown me those areas in my life that I had as untruth or sin. Once He reveals these untruths He asks that we believe Him above the traditions and beliefs we have held for so long and He will set us free. I had to jettison many beliefs from the "church of my youth" and follow Him rather than tradition and untruth. You must allow Him to do the same for you and Mormonism. ← IF YOU ACCEPTED THE G-D OF ALL TRUTH HE WILL SHOW YOU TRUTH FROM ERROR - Wow, how can someone that accepts G-d - sin after G-d has shown him the truth from error? Since the time that "He has shown me those areas in my life that I had as untruth or sin" (Your words) - have you sined? Even just a little one where you got mad at someone that did not deserve it? If your current church and religion has set you and everyone else there stright (ended devorce among its menbers - ended pride and envy and everything else bad) please send me the location where you all are - I'll be there Sunday to check it out. The Traveler The Traveler ← TRAVELER DON'T YOU RECALL MY POST ON ROMANS 7. In this passage even the great Apostle Paul who was used by God to write over half of the NT admits he sinned and struggled with sin. I too admit that I too often struggle with sin but I too like my namesake recognize the battle between the old man and the new man in Christ Jesus. The Apostle Paul at the end of Romans 7 and the beginning of Romans 8 states that the only one who could save such a wretch as him and me also is the Lord Jesus Christ. Then in Romans 8:1-9 we have these words: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. " Here the Apostle Paul makes it clear that as long as we follow the law of the Spirit, in other words let the Holy Spirit have His way then He will keep us from sin, however if we fall back in our old patterns, or fail to pray and seek God's guidance then we start following the law of the flesh once again which produces sin in us. No where in my previous posts have I ever said we will never sin and fail God after salvation for the Bible says we will but God is quick to forgive us when we through the conviction of the Holy Spirit once again confess those "post salvation " sins. These sins as I have said before are now covered by the blood of Jesus and they only affect the outcome of our reward in heaven (not Section 76 type of reward though). 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 clears this up: "For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. But if any man buildeth on the foundation gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble; each man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself shall prove each man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work shall abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire." Those things we do after salvation will also be judged by Jesus as to whether they were truly works we did to glorify the Lord (gold, silver, costly stones) or whether we did them for our own desires (wood, hay or stubble). If for our own desires these will be burned but the things that were done for God's glory will remain. It is not that we will never sin after salvation but that we have a God who is quick to wash these new sins with the precious blood of Jesus. Once again we come back to it is His grace (unmerited favor) that sets us free from sin and death TILL NEXT POST

SERG Let me first respond to your last post about the word "adieu". What you are now saying is that JS occasionally put in words from his own thinking that fit into the story line or what he was translating. HOW DO WE KNOW THEN WHAT ARE JS WORDS AND WHAT IS THE WORD FROM THE LORD? When one couples this with the testimonies of many of JS scribes there seems to be a contradiction. Some of the scribes say that JS sat with his head in his hat looking at the "seer" stone and that the plates weren't even around. They further say that JS read what he saw on the stone to his scribes they wrote it down and read it back to him. If the read-back words matched what JS saw on the stone the next part of the translation would come on the stone and they would proceed. But if the read-back didn't match then JS would correct what the scribes had gotten wrong. NOW THESE TESTIMONIES OF THE TRANSLATING PROCESS WOULD NOT REQUIRE JS TO ADD ANYTHING AND IT THEORETICALLY COULD BE CONSIDERED TRULY FROM GOD. If that is how it happened then JS claim that the BOM is the most correct book in the world would make sense. Now you say that JS added words and things as he felt necessary. Which testimony do we accept or do we accept either one? Now regarding the word "steel". You say it "is NOT referring to the steel we know, but a metal that yet was nor brass or bronze, but hard enough to be used to make arms..." Where in the Encyclopedia does one find this discussion of early metallurgy in Ancient America? Under what topic did you find this info about some other type of metal? From my extensive study on the Maya, Aztec and Incas I di not find anything indicating they had some other type of metal. Please give me a reference source as to where you obtained your information. Also regarding cement. Yes the BOM states that it was used in America! Then you ask "How in heaven or earth could a simple foolish boy without studies nor the economic potencial , know abou this, that was just recently discivered?" WELL HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF NEWSPAPERS? Something newly discovered like cement in 1827 would surely be the talk of town and in the newspapers. WHY CAN'T YOU ADMIT HE INSERTED THIS WORD ALSO IN THE DISCUSSION IF YOU ADMIT JS DID IT IN OTHER PLACES? Now I am waiting for my chocolates. Book of Ether does not call them ELEPHANTS. There is some other name which I can't remember now. Just as with the issue about cement the newspapers had much information about archeology in the America's. It is possible that someone discovered the remains of one of these beasts and JS added it to the BOM and gave them a name. OK where is my sneakers. As to windows: You said "It is not specific as to whether the windows would dash because of glass or anything likely." Then why even say they would not need them if they couldn't break. There must be areason why God would tell the brother of Jared to not include them. The instructions were specific in some ways about how he was to build these boats??? if that is what they were. Then tell me why God supposedly says they are not required. Then you said "If glass did not appear until the middle ages(though there has been discoveries on glass vessels before the time of Christ) , its irrelevant..." WHY IS IT IRREVALANT? First My original comments covered the history of glass-making and that a people from the Tower of Babel days would only have some references to glass beads and trinkets if that at all. So why does this brother of Jared have to be instructed not to put in glass windows if there was no such thing then. SEEMS TO ME IT IS VERY RELAVANT TO THE TOPIC ABOUT BOM STUMBLING BLOCKS THAT FIRST STARTED THIS THREAD. Can you address the other many BOM modern terms I mentioned in my earlier long post. You only addressed 3 of my long list. If you can do that then I will give you back your chocolates and sneakers. Till later posts

SNOW If you truly have accepted the Lord as you say then why do you all still teach that His sacrifice on the cross is not enough for salvation. If He is able to die for all the sins of all the people who ever lived even before we were born then WHY ISN'T HE ABLE TO COMPLETE WHAT HE STARTED IN EACH OF THOSE WHO HAVE BELIEVED. Mormonism teaches that even after all the holding onto the rod and reaching the tree of life and eating its fruit people can still fall away (Lehi's dream). Which is saying that we have to work for our salvation and even after doing all that is required still falling away. I refer to Romans 4:19-22 and Philippians 1:6 where in the 1st passage it says od Abraham that he believed even in his old age and then Paul says in the 2nd passage that he was confidant that what God had started He was able to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. To me the Gospel of Grace glorifies the Almighty God where the Gospel of Works makes it something people can boast about (look what I have done) which is contrary to Ephesians 2:8-10 and many other scriptures. SO IF YOU ACCEPTED THE GOD OF ALL TRUTH HE WILL SHOW YOU TRUTH FROM ERROR. All of us need to be asking God to show us the "fine points of deception" and to reveal all the facets of truth about Him. The Holy Spirit will honor that prayer and gradually show you as He has shown me those areas in my life that I had as untruth or sin. Once He reveals these untruths He asks that we believe Him above the traditions and beliefs we have held for so long and He will set us free. I had to jettison many beliefs from the "church of my youth" and follow Him rather than tradition and untruth. You must allow Him to do the same for you and Mormonism.

SERG and SNOW I thought I did answer the question as best I could in my previous post. But let me try again. Lets first define a few things: SAVED according to the Bible means we have absolute assurance through God's grace and the shed blood of Jesus that we are going to heaven (Not the heaven described in Section 76 of the D of C though). See 1 John 2:24-25 We have assurance of salvation by what Jesus did and not what we do to attain it or keep it. The Holy Spirit is given to us and live inside of us to be that guarantee of salvation. ACKNOWLEDGE means truly recognize that our sins is what separates each of us from Christ and that He died for those sins (past, present and future). "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:6-8). No works will ever make me presentable before the Lord if I haven't received Him as my personal Savior and Lord. Section 76 says a totally different story but we won't get into that now. REPENT means to turn 180 degrees away from the sin that so easily trips us up and choose to follow Jesus in what He calls us to do. Yes obedience, walking out our faith, doing the works He prepares for us is a "post-salvation" work by the Holy Spirit to complete the justification and sanctification process but we must realize it is still Him that is working in us and changing us from the inside out as I have posted before. Is this going to mean we never sin again - OF COURSE NOT. We will struggle with sin no matter how mature in the Lord we become. A key example of this is what Paul wrote in Romans 7:7-25 about his own personal struggle with sin many years after his Damascus Road experience Now to the question "If they do the A, B, C,'s of salvation are Mormons saved?" As I said before I believe that if the person whether a Mormon, Catholic, atheist, Hindu, etc. etc. truly acknowledges their sins to the Lord and truly accepts God's free gift of grace through the work of Jesus Christ and confesses the same with their mouth they are saved (Romans 10:9-10). The Bible clearly states that God is able to pick us up out of the miry clay and set us on a solid rock. Even the quicksand of Mormonism or the errors of Catholicism cannot keep God from pulling "His newly adopted child" out and setting them "guiltless" on the solid rock because of what He has done. However after salvation, you are continually asked by the Lord to examine ourselves and if He convicts you of a sin or sins that are being harbored we need to once again confess these before the Lord and recognize that He will cleanse us of these "post-salvation" sins which must be dealt with. Positionally, in Christ Jesus, these "post-salvation" sins have already been forgiven however He still asks us as part of the justification and sanctification process to recognize that we have sinned (1 John 1:5-10). After salvation the Holy Spirit will begin to show each us of areas of un-truth and sin in our lives and expose these areas often a little at a time. I would be really afraid if He revealed them all at once. Now for the Mormon He will start revealing things of untruth in the BOM, D of C, and other teachings of the LDbecausese they do not agree with the Bible (His Word). Now here is where the rubber meets the road. If you have done the A, B, C's as you have said then you better be believing the Bible for it is the revealed Word of God that we must measure all other teachings against including the BOM and D of C. This is where Mormons struggle because they have been totally misled to believe that the BOM is true and the Bible has errorbecausese the BOM says so (a circular argument if I ever saw one). If you don't start seeing this doctrinal error in the light of God's Word then one has to wonder whether you were really saved and meant what you stated when you made a profession of faith to the Lord Jesus (See 1 John 2:18-19). I hope this clears this issue up some more. If you still insist on the heavy yoke of working your way to salvation by your own strength and the Mormon teachings; and not take the easy yoke of salvation by Jesus shed blood then I pray that someday the burden will become so heavy that it will cause you to truly call upon Him for His grace and mercy and let Him truly be your personal Lord and Savior. I am sure this will cause some response from you all but it is as plain and loving that I can state the truth. Paul ← If this is so, and ONLY through Christ is everyone saved....*as i believe too*, why then are Zacariah and Elizabeth described in the gospels as "blameless" before the Lord? Coul such state of virtue and guiltless come from the law? I think not, but also that the prophets or anyone from the begining had to believe in some extent in the messiah to come in order to show sufficent faith as to be saved....dont you think? ← SERG You still miss the point I have made several times in that just like Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him righteouness. The same applies to Zacharias and Elisabeth (Luke 1:5-25) Verse 6 says the were "righteous before God" - IN OTHER WORDS THEY BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS COUNTED UNTO THEM RIGHTEOUSNESS. Out ot this righteousness from God flowed their ability "to walk in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless". Because they first believed they not only were able to walk in God's commandments but they also were blest by God with a long desired child even in their old age. It says that they desired to have a child and I would imagine that they prayed many times for a child. BUT AS I HAVE POSTED BEFORE IT IS THE SIMPLE PROCESS OF BELIEVING GOD AND TRUSTING HIM TO WORK OUT THE PLANS HE HAS FOR EACH OF US. Even the OT saints even though they didn't have the same revelation that we have as NT peoples can still be considered righteous before the Lord by simply BELIEVING GOD. It is as I have posted before about what we do but what God has done and will do. Again going back to Psalm 51:6 King David said "Behold you desire truth in my inward parts and in the hidden part thou shall make me know wisdom." King David understood that it is God working inside of us that will reveal truth. Then King David in verses 7-15 says a prayer of repentance to the Lord and then in verses 16-17 he states that it is not in the burnt sacrifices that God finds pleasure but in a "contrite and broken heart" which God won't despise. King David clearly understood even in OT times what it meant to live for the Lord. So the OT saints did not earn their righteousness by keeping the law they received it simply because they believed. SAME AS TODAY - GOD'S MESSAGE HAS NOT CHANGED.

SERG and SNOW I thought I did answer the question as best I could in my previous post. But let me try again. Lets first define a few things: SAVED according to the Bible means we have absolute assurance through God's grace and the shed blood of Jesus that we are going to heaven (Not the heaven described in Section 76 of the D of C though). See 1 John 2:24-25 We have assurance of salvation by what Jesus did and not what we do to attain it or keep it. The Holy Spirit is given to us and live inside of us to be that guarantee of salvation. ACKNOWLEDGE means truly recognize that our sins is what separates each of us from Christ and that He died for those sins (past, present and future). "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:6-8). No works will ever make me presentable before the Lord if I haven't received Him as my personal Savior and Lord. Section 76 says a totally different story but we won't get into that now. REPENT means to turn 180 degrees away from the sin that so easily trips us up and choose to follow Jesus in what He calls us to do. Yes obedience, walking out our faith, doing the works He prepares for us is a "post-salvation" work by the Holy Spirit to complete the justification and sanctification process but we must realize it is still Him that is working in us and changing us from the inside out as I have posted before. Is this going to mean we never sin again - OF COURSE NOT. We will struggle with sin no matter how mature in the Lord we become. A key example of this is what Paul wrote in Romans 7:7-25 about his own personal struggle with sin many years after his Damascus Road experience Now to the question "If they do the A, B, C,'s of salvation are Mormons saved?" As I said before I believe that if the person whether a Mormon, Catholic, atheist, Hindu, etc. etc. truly acknowledges their sins to the Lord and truly accepts God's free gift of grace through the work of Jesus Christ and confesses the same with their mouth they are saved (Romans 10:9-10). The Bible clearly states that God is able to pick us up out of the miry clay and set us on a solid rock. Even the quicksand of Mormonism or the errors of Catholicism cannot keep God from pulling "His newly adopted child" out and setting them "guiltless" on the solid rock because of what He has done. However after salvation, you are continually asked by the Lord to examine ourselves and if He convicts you of a sin or sins that are being harbored we need to once again confess these before the Lord and recognize that He will cleanse us of these "post-salvation" sins which must be dealt with. Positionally, in Christ Jesus, these "post-salvation" sins have already been forgiven however He still asks us as part of the justification and sanctification process to recognize that we have sinned (1 John 1:5-10). After salvation the Holy Spirit will begin to show each us of areas of un-truth and sin in our lives and expose these areas often a little at a time. I would be really afraid if He revealed them all at once. Now for the Mormon He will start revealing things of untruth in the BOM, D of C, and other teachings of the LDbecausese they do not agree with the Bible (His Word). Now here is where the rubber meets the road. If you have done the A, B, C's as you have said then you better be believing the Bible for it is the revealed Word of God that we must measure all other teachings against including the BOM and D of C. This is where Mormons struggle because they have been totally misled to believe that the BOM is true and the Bible has errorbecausese the BOM says so (a circular argument if I ever saw one). If you don't start seeing this doctrinal error in the light of God's Word then one has to wonder whether you were really saved and meant what you stated when you made a profession of faith to the Lord Jesus (See 1 John 2:18-19). I hope this clears this issue up some more. If you still insist on the heavy yoke of working your way to salvation by your own strength and the Mormon teachings; and not take the easy yoke of salvation by Jesus shed blood then I pray that someday the burden will become so heavy that it will cause you to truly call upon Him for His grace and mercy and let Him truly be your personal Lord and Savior. I am sure this will cause some response from you all but it is as plain and loving that I can state the truth. Paul

SERG Had a few minutes to read what you posted here about the use of French words in the BOM. It becomes a major issue in that if you accept the timeline spelled out in the BOM, the Nephites supposedly left Jerusalem in 600 BC and were supposedly here in the Americas by approximately 20 years later. Keeping this in mind there should no longer be an influence of European or Mid-Eastern culture into this group of Americans now since they are half a world away from those areas. Now when one examines some of the BOM words they use one has to wonder how do they get such words long before the French or Greek languages are developed. Here are a few other examples besides the one you mentioned: One area of historical discrepancies, found in the BOM, is related to the use of more modern language or terms or even references to various manufactured items that were not yet invented or developed at the time period in question. Many of these language, terms, and manufactured items were not known until centuries later than the BOM time frame. The following comments address these discrepancies: a. 1N 4:9 (1N 1:109 RLDS) states, “the blade thereof was of the most precious steel” and then 1N 16:18 (1N 5:22 RLDS) says, “I did break my bow which was made of fine steel.” Additional BOM references to steel are found in 2N 5:15, JA 1:8 and ETH 7:9 (2N 4:21, JA 1:19-20 and ETH 3:46 RLDS). Steel, as we know it today, had not been perfected at this time. The Encyclopedia Americana states: “The earliest form of steel was produced in the Catalan furnace in the 1300’s…in the mid-19th century, cast iron and wrought iron were the basic materials for industry and technology…Steel was difficult and costly to produce, by the only processes known at that time, until the Bessemer process (1856) and the Open-Hearth process (1860’s) were developed.” The Encyclopedia Britannica, Volume 6, states the following about iron and steel production: “True iron metallurgy began among the Hittites some time between 1900 and 1400 B.C. …Iron replaced bronze in implements and weapons beginning in the Middle East and Southeastern Europe about 1200 B.C. Pure iron is about as soft as copper and is of little structural value, but it is greatly hardened by the addition of small amounts of carbon. Steel contains up to 2 percent carbon; higher carbon content creates cast iron. Steel making is a melting, purifying (refining) and alloying process carried out at approximately 1600oC (2900oF) under molten conditions.” Based on this information, one must ask, “How could the people described in the BOM have a steel blade, steel bow or shields made of steel?” Shields made of steel would be extremely heavy unless they were very small. The KJV Bible in four locations also refers to steel. These are as follows: 2 Samuel 22:35; Job 20:24; Psalm 18:34; and Jeremiah 15:12. The Hebrew word used here has been translated from the same Hebrew word which means brass or bronze. All newer Bible translations use the word bronze instead of steel at these same Bible verses. If one assumes the same translation variation for the BOM text, then maybe the writer of the BOM was intending to use the word bronze, brass or brazen. Looking up these three words in the Bible, they will find that these metals were used extensively in ornamental items, vessels for worship in the tabernacle, the brazen altar, etc. These metals were even used as armor because they were light. The Bible identifies shields, breastplates, helmets and shin guards as being made of these metals, but no mention of their use in the production of swords or spears since these weapons would require a much stronger material to be effective in battle. The BOM, on the other hand, clearly identifies swords and spears being made of steel. The passages in 2N and JA both state that various things were made out of “wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass and of steel…” Here the BOM lists all four different metals together (iron, copper, brass and steel) as being made. This brings us back to the original question. How could they make things of steel when steel was not produced until after 1300 AD? Additionally, the BOM stretches the issue to the limits of credibility. Specifically, the book of Ether was supposedly about a people who lived from Tower of Babel days until somewhere around 200-300 B.C. before the two warring factions annihilated each other except for Ether and Coriantumr. The BOM is unclear as to when the Jaredite history came to a finish by this final battle, however earlier in the Jaredite history we find the story of Corihor and Shule, ETH 7:1-9 (ETH 3:37-3:46 RLDS), the great grandsons of Jared. Shule made swords out of “steel” and fought Corihor, his brother; in order restore the kingdom to his old father Kib. As stated earlier, the specific time frame is not presented except that one can estimate a time by comparing the historical record and the Biblical account with the BOM account. Most Biblical scholars place the life of Abraham as being between 2000 BC - 1800 BC. Again the Bible places Abraham in the 5th generation from the Tower of Babel (i.e. Peleg - Reu - Serug - Nahor - Terah - Abraham). The BOM account would place Corihor and Shule in the same generation as Nahor or approximately 2200 BC - 1900 BC. Referring to the quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica presented earlier “true iron metallurgy began among the Hittites sometime between 1900 and 1400 B.C.” The historical and Biblical account differ with the BOM account in that Shule made swords out of “steel” even before the beginning of the iron age. One of these accounts has to be wrong. b. 1N 16:14-23 (1N 5:17-28 RLDS) speaks about Nephi and his brothers taking “our bows” signifying more than one, but Nephi’s brothers got real mad at Nephi for breaking his bow. What about their bows? Verse 21 (verse 26 RLDS) attempts to explain this in that the “bow strings” had went out on the other bows. What were these bow strings made of? Couldn’t new ones be made? Nephi then proceeds in making a bow “out of wood” which helps him explain why the Indians had wooden bows and arrows. c. God shows Nephi how to build a ship with ore, tools and bellows. The Encyclopedia Britannica - Volume 2 presents the following: “Bellows - a mechanical contrivance for creating a jet of air, consisting usually of a hinged box with flexible sides, which expands to draw in air through an inward opening valve and contracts to expel the air through a nozzle. The bellows was invented in the European Middle Ages and was commonly used to speed combustion, as in a blacksmith’s or ironworker’s forge, or to operate reed or pipe organs.” As described in the BOM, Nephi was either a product of someone’s (Smith’s) 19th century story telling or someone with knowledge of the use of bellows almost 1500 years before they were invented. d. Made swords like Laban’s sword which was made out of “precious steel” 2N 5:14, Jarom 1:8, Mosiah 10:8, Alma 2:12, Helaman 1:14, and 3N 3:26 (2N 4:19, Jarom 1:19, Mosiah 6:38, Alma 1:66, Helaman 1:15, and 3N 2:37 RLDS). If one examines the archeological evidence in the American Indian ruins, one would note a strange absence of metal products such as described in these and many other verses of the BOM. Furthermore the Jarom 1:8 passage talks about machinery being made in approximately 400 B.C. What type of machinery? Where is the archeological evidence? Reviewing various encyclopedias regarding the Maya, Aztec, and Inca civilizations, one finds that these civilizations lacked draft animals, wheeled vehicles, and metal tools. What tools and weapons they did have were made out of copper not steel. e. Here is the one SERG mentioned. J 7:27 (J 5:48 RLDS) ends the Book of Jacob with the words, “Brethern adieu.” The word “adieu” is a French word which means “good bye”. The problem with the use of this French word is that the French language was not developed or derived from Latin until 700 A.D. How does someone, who supposedly wrote on these golden tablets 500 years before Christ, write a French word that was not derived till approximately 700 years after Christ? f. M 15:5-23 (M 8:32-57 RLDS) presents a discussion about the Son of God and that He would be mocked, scourged, crucified, swallowed up, breaketh the bands of death, having gained, having ascended and satisfying the demands of justice. All of these things that the Son of God was to go through are all presented in the past tense as if they had already happened. This would indicate that the one writing these verses, already knew what was already taught about Christ. Possibly could be an indicator that the writer was someone after the New Testament period. Furthermore, the word “crucified” does not appear in the Old Testament and the only Old Testament references to this form of execution is in the verse “cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree” Deuteronomy 21:23 and the two (2) references of the one “whom they have pierced” found in Psalm 22:16 and Zechariah 12:10. One must ask “Why does the BOM express what Jesus would experience more clearly than any other Old Testament passage?” Probably because it was written much later than suggested (i.e. maybe the 1820’s). g. M 17:11-20 (M 9:16-27 RLDS) is the account of Abinadi’s stand before King Noah and eventually his death, which sounds so similar to what Jesus went through in his trial, scourging and death. Parallels in this BOM passage with the Bibles description of Jesus are as follows: 1. King Noah like Pilate wanted to free him. 2. Priests raised their voices before King Noah 3. Before his death, Abinadi was scourged 4. Abinadi just before his death cried out to God to receive his soul and then he died immediately. One must wonder how such similarities occur in supposedly 2 different incidents written on opposite sides of the earth. Along this same line of thought M 18:1-9 (M 9:28-40 RLDS) discusses Alma and his preaching at the River Mormon and the baptism of the people who accepted what he said. Some of this material sounds very similar to the Bible’s account of John the Baptist. Again one must wonder about the similarities. h. M 29:40 and A 11:24 (M 13:59 and A 8:74 RLDS) has King Mosiah saying “that lucre which doth corrupt the soul” and that Zeezrom loved “that lucre more than him.” The noteworthy part of this is the BOM’s use of the word “lucre”. This word is derived from the Latin word lucrum. Rudimentary Latin was developed in 600 B.C. History records that the early period of literary Latin was from 240-70 B.C. Early Latin had less flexibility and grace than the Greek language; its vocabulary was more limited so they borrowed many words from the Greek language. Early in the BOM Nephi states he was taught in the language of Lehi which later became the reformed Egyptian language according to JS and the BOM text. The Jewish people were not forced to learn Latin until the Roman Empire captured the country approximately a hundred years before Christ. The question is “how does a supposedly reformed Egyptian language or for that matter the native language of the Jews (Hebrew/Aramaic) end up with a Latin word used by a people who fled Israel in 600 B.C. and went to a continent an ocean away from the Roman people where Latin was developed?” i. In A 37:38-42 (A 17:71-77 RLDS), a discussion about the purposes and use of the ball or director which is called a Liahona. When the forefathers had faith in God the Liahona would point the way in the wilderness. When the forefathers did not have faith they did not progress in their journey and tarried in the wilderness. As one checks the earlier parts of the BOM to verify these events the only reference to them being delayed at all, after the finding the Liahona, was found in 1N 18:11-13 (1N 5:190-194 RLDS). This event happened after Laman and Lemuel bound Nephi up after they were already at sea, not while they were still in the wilderness. Furthermore, why would God give them a special device, such as the Liahona, when He led the Israelites in the desert for 40 years with a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night? On top of this God still led the Israelites even though they murmured and complained and even disobeyed God. j. A 50:2-5 (A 22:2-5 RLDS) has Moroni continuing in fortifying all the cities even to the point of building something similar to forts that were common in the America’s in the 18th and 19th centuries. The question that arises was JS relating his BOM story line to things that were going on around him in his day? k. 3N 9:17-22 (3N 4:47-52 RLDS) notes Jesus voice is heard by the remaining people and as one evaluates what is spoken two variances with Biblical and historical facts arise. These are as follows: 1). Verse 17 (verse 47 RLDS) In Christ the law of Moses is fulfilled is true to some extent but Matthew 5:18 states “For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” In Christ it is fulfilled but not completely yet. 2). Verse 18 (verse 48 RLDS) “I am Alpha and Omega”- these are 2 Greek words in a place where the Greek language was not known. Quoting these words to a people who didn’t know Greek language would seem very strange. l. In the BOM, Jesus supposedly repeats the Sermon on the Mount, almost word for word (3N 12:3-14:27 LDS; 3N 5:50-6:37 RLDS) to the survivors of this huge catastrophe. Some items that should be questioned include the use of certain words that were not part of the language of their day or of the Jewish language about 600 B.C. when Lehi and family left Jerusalem. Some of these words are as follows: LDS RLDS bushel 3N 12:15 3N 5:62 jot, tittle 3N 12:18 3N 5:65 raca 3N 12:22 3N 5:70 mile, twain 3N 12:41 3N 5:87 alms 3N 13:1 3N 5:93 closet 3N 13:6 3N 5:98 mammon 3N 13:24 3N 5:115 cubit 3N 13:27 3N 6:5 mote 3N 14:3 3N 6:15 A search through the dictionary reveals an important question regarding the authenticity of the BOM or the description by JS and others in the process of how it was translated (word for word direct translation using the seer stone). If it was a word for word translation with no human intervention other than speaking what Smith saw in the stone, then one has to ask how did words of much later origin find their way into the BOM text? The dictionary reveals this about the words presented earlier in this comment: Word Origin of Word Probable Time of Origin Meaning bushel Old French “boissel” 14th Century A.D. jot Latin “iota or jota” 1500 A.D. The least mark tittle Medieval Latin “titulus” 14th Century A.D. A small part raca Aramaic “rēqā” Not determined Greek “rhaka” mile Latin “milia” 12th Century A.D. 1000 paces twain Old English “TwEgen” 12th Century A.D. two alms Greek “eleEmosynE” 12th Century A.D. closet Old French “kloźet” Not determined mammon Aramaic “mAmOnA” 15th Century A.D. cubit Latin “cubitum” 14th Century A.D. About 18” long mote Old English “mot” 12th Century A.D. Small particle m. 3N 12:41 and 13:27 (3N 5:87 and 6:5 RLDS) have Jesus presenting a part of the Sermon on the Mount in which the words mile and cubit are used. If one reviews A 11:4 (A 8:54-55 RLDS) they would find that the Nephites altered their money and measuring systems to something different than the Jews. The author of the BOM in 3N 12:26 (3N 5:75 RLDS) altered the word “farthing” from the Bible to the word “senine” which was supposedly the Nephites name for a certain coin. Why did the author of the BOM go through the trouble of changing this term and not change the two measurement terms? n. In 1N 20-21 (1N 6:8 - 6:56 RLDS) quotes Isaiah 48 and 49 which has in 1N 21:1 (1N 6:30 RLDS) the word “pastors” being used. Using this term is unique since the word is derived from the French language and means “a shepherd, guardian or keeper of souls, or priest in charge of a church” and was not a word used in the Isaiah period. The French language wasn’t developed until 6th or 7th century AD. How could such a word of later derivation show up in a book that was completed for the most part before 421 AD in a land, an ocean away, from where the French language was developed? The only way a word such as this could enter the text would be if the original writing came from a period later than the 6th to 7th century A.D. (maybe 1820’s). If one searches the KJV Bible, they could find the word pastor or pastors in the following scriptures: Jeremiah 2:8, 3:15, 10:21, 12:10, 17:16, 22:22 and 23:1-2, also Ephesians 4:11. Now one asks how did it get in the KJV. It must be remembered that the original translation process for the KJV from early manuscripts was started in the 16th century long after the French language was developed and the word may have best described what the early manuscripts described. This does not negate the argument against the BOM since Smith and others described the translation process with the Urim and Thummim as being totally straight from God. They didn’t learn the language they supposedly were translating, but only read the translation in the stone(s). o. E 2:16-3:9 (E 1:43-72 RLDS) The Lord directs the brother of Jared and his brethren to build a second set of barges. These verses describe the barges (eight barges altogether) as follows: 1). They were small and light upon the water. 2). Exceedingly tight “like unto a dish”. 3). As long as a tree. How long is that? 4). No windows to let in light, nor holes to let in fresh air, at first. Brother of Jared prays. 5). The Lord instructs the brother of Jared to make a hole in the top and bottom so they could receive air. Why the hole in the bottom? If it is because the ships could turn over, then all contents and passengers would be tossed around, violently. What kind of plan is that? 6). No light inside was allowed even the “light by fire.” The text seems to suggest God didn’t have any solution to this problem. 7). The ships were to be like “a whale in the midst of the sea.” Like a submarine? 8). The ships for the “floods which shall come.” What floods? They are in the middle of the ocean, aren’t they? To solve the lighting problem, the brother of Jared fashions out of molten rock “16-clear as glass” rocks. He then prays for the Lord to touch these rocks and make them shine so they would have light in the journey across the ocean. The finger of God touches each rock and they shine. The brother of Jared sees the finger of God and perceives it to be made of “flesh and blood”. The Lord answers the brother Jared’s question regarding this revelation by stating “Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger...”. No man has as much faith! Where was his faith when he asked about the fresh air and lighting provisions for the barges. Additionally, the Lord said “ye cannot have windows for they will be dashed to pieces...” Is this referencing that the windows would be made of glass? For Noah was instructed to make a window which was probably a wooden door that could be opened to let light and air in. If God instructed Noah to put a window in his ark that floated on a completely flooded earth then why not put the same type of window in these barges that would float on the oceans? From a review of various internet sites one can find that the first true evidence of glass production was around 2500 B.C. about the time of Noah’s flood, however, this glass consisted mainly as beads, seals and architectural decoration. Some 1,000 years elapsed before glass vessels are known to have been produced approximately 1600 B.C. just before Moses was born and long after the Tower of Babel. This brief evaluation on this subject indicated that early attempts to mass produce window glass occurred during the Middle Ages. Several attempts in America for the manufacture of glass products occurred during the 1600’s and early 1700’s. The first successful American glassworks was in 1738 to 1784, however, all of these early ventures, were opposed strongly by the British and eventually failed. Finally, American glass manufacture really took off between 1790 and 1820 when some 63 glasshouses were set up. This is noteworthy, in that the quick expansion of the glass manufacturing industry occurred about the same time the BOM was being written. Does the BOM “Lord’s comment” about not having windows reflect a 19th century A.D. time frame of the writings? SO AS YOU SEE SERG THERE ARE MANY TERMS IN THE BOM TEXT THAT DO NOT FIT THE TIMELINE ESTABLISHED. MANY OF THE LANGUAGE TERMS DID NOT EXIST IN EVEN THEIR RUDIMENTARY FORMS WHEN THE NEPHITES SUPPOSEDLY LEFT JERUSALEM. SO HOW DOES ONE ACCOUNT FOR SUCH THINGS IN THE BOM TEXT. I DON'T BELIEVE YOU CAN COME UP WITH ANY OTHER EXPLANATION OTHER THAN THE BOOK WAS PART OF THE TALE THAT JS WANTED PEOPLE TO HEAR. NOTHING MORE THAN A TALL TALE LIKE THE ONES COMMON IN THAT ERA. CAN YOU EXPLAIN THESE MANY EXAMPLES OF MODERN TERMS USED SUPPOSEDLY IN AN ANCIENT BOOK WRITTEN HALF WAY AROUND THE WORLD FROM WHERE THE LANGUAGE OR TERM FIRST ORIGINATED. ← HEY LDS POSTING PEOPLE IT SEEMS ODD THAT NOT ONE OF YOU HAVE BOTHERED TO RESPOND TO THIS POST ABOUT THE USE OF MODERN TERMS IN THE BOM AT TIME FRAMES THAT THEY WERE NOT EVEN AROUND. SURELY YOU MUST HAVE AN ANSWER TO THESE BOM ISSUES.

SERG I disagree with your take on the Galatians passage I posted before for it does apply to salvation by grace versus salvation by works. Let me post the passage again so we can analyze it. Galatians 3:1-6 Oh, foolish Galatians! What magician has cast an evil spell on you? For you used to see the meaning of Jesus Christ's death as clearly as though I had shown you a signboard with a picture of Christ dying on the cross. Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the law? Of course not, for the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you believed the message you heard about Christ. Have you lost your senses? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? You have suffered so much for the Good News. Surely it was not in vain, was it? Are you now going to just throw it all away? I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the Law of Moses? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ. In the same way, "Abraham believed God, so God declared him righteous because of his faith." Paul asks them if "...the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you believed the message you heard about Christ" OR did it come upon them by keeping the Law. Yes it does, as you stated, refer to the Galatians practice of intermixing Mosaic Law requirements with the teachings about God's grace that Paul had brought to them; however, this applies also to any efforts we make in trying to keep any commandments in our own strength in order to be saved. Paul tells the Galatians that the Holy Spirit (the guarantee deposit of our salvation) came to them because they believed what they heard about Jesus atoning sacrifice on the cross. In Acts 16:29-31 the Philippian jailer asked "What must I do to be saved" Peter's response was "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved - you and your household." He didn't say keep all of my commandments and then you will be saved. He said "BELIEVE" just as John 3:18 puts it also. Paul also said to the Galatians "After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" As I have posted before it is not our human effort that makes us the vessels He wantsus to be. It is Him working in us to will and do as He pleases. Yes the Galatians were reverting back to Judiasm's practices but the human efforts to earn salvation or keep our salvation is also applicable here. It doesn't matter what efforts we make, or what works we complete or what commandments we keep that gets us into heaven. It is His grace and His grace alone that will get us there. Our works that He does in us after we are saved is part of the work of the Holy Spirit changing us from the inside.

Come now PC, There's no need to get all cagey and start posting defensively. We are talking about the God of the Bible - of Abraham, Isaac and Moses. We are talking about Jesus Christ of the Bible, born in Bethlehem to Mary, who was baptised in the River Jordan, called his 12 apostles and was crucified for our sins. If I accept that Christ as my Savior - can I be saved. No one is asking you to pass judgements - just tell me if salvation is my faith in Christ alone or do I also need to earn my salvation by understanding and accepting correct doctrine. ← PAUL6150 SAYS: To all who posted here since my last post to Ray regarding the ABC's of salvation. Let me first answer the one question as to which brand of Christian I am but first a little history. I was born and raised a strong Catholic; married a strong RLDS woman 31 years ago. We raised our family under both churches and didn't have a lot of battles over religion until I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior on April 16, 1988 at the age of 35. At this juncture Jesus took me and my family through many tough times (many fights about religion) but now on the victorious side of these battles we (my wife and I) now serve Jesus in a non-denominational Christian church (Charismatic/Pentecostal) and each of our kids are strong members of similar Charismatic/Pentecostal churches where God has placed them. God has taught me many things during these times and He is still teaching me more but here are some points that must be made in this post. FIRST: One point I do agree with prisonchaplain on is that we must surrender to the true God (the ABC's as I presented before) in order to be saved, however, I also believe that even if they do not know the true God nor have all their doctrinal points straightened out God will save those whose hearts are turned to Him. There are many testimonies of people radically changed by Christ from where they first cried out to Him. Many have testimonies of not knowing the God of the Bible yet God saved them and led them to an understanding that the Bible tells them about this God who has saved them. SECOND: I believe that God can reach the heart of the murderer, businessman, housewife, atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Mormon, Catholic, etc. at the place they are at and draw them to Him just as He did to my wife and I many years ago. He then begins to change our lives one step at a time from the inside. He changes our previous misled core values to accept His values and make them ours. This change doesn’t come easy but God will change us as we surrender to HIM one baby step at a time. SO IN RESPONSE TO RAY’S QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER MORMON’S CAN BE SAVED IF THEY DO THE ABC’S OF SALVATION, I state a whole-hearted YES but HE will be the one who judges whether the heart of the individual was truly seeking Him or whether they meant what they confessed. If their hearts desire was right THEN God will save them for that is what grace (unmerited favor) is all about.. THIRD: From the point of true salvation, God will gradually pry away those things (even false teaching) that are not according to HIS word and will fill our lives with things that are right and true. He will show us that our strength comes from the depth and intimacy we have with our Lord Jesus. If one examines the word “intimacy” it is defined as a relationship marked by very close association, contact, or familiarity. In the Jewish Talmud: we find the rabbis also stressing an intimacy into the relationship between God and man. God became the father to whom each individual could turn in direct prayer for his needs. Intimacy with God is more like each of us giving permission for God to look at our heart (into-me-see). It is where the Holy Spirit examines our motives and attitudes as we become more Christ-like. We are admonished in Ephesians 5:1-2 to be imitators of God. How do we do that? The only way possible is through total surrender to Him in which He transforms us from being fornicators, coveters and foolish talkers into individuals who are now loving, thankful and pleasing to Him. I post the New Living Translation’s version of Ephesians 5:1-21 and Colossians 3:1-17 to emphasize this point. Ephesians 5:1-21: “Follow God's example in everything you do, because you are his dear children. Live a life filled with love for others, following the example of Christ, who loved you and gave himself as a sacrifice to take away your sins. And God was pleased, because that sacrifice was like sweet perfume to him. Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God's people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes – these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is really an idolater who worships the things of this world. Don't be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the terrible anger of God comes upon all those who disobey him. Don't participate in the things these people do. For though your hearts were once full of darkness, now you are full of light from the Lord, and your behavior should show it! For this light within you produces only what is good and right and true. Try to find out what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the worthless deeds of evil and darkness; instead, rebuke and expose them. It is shameful even to talk about the things that ungodly people do in secret. But when the light shines on them, it becomes clear how evil these things are. And where your light shines, it will expose their evil deeds. This is why it is said, "Awake, O sleeper, rise up from the dead, and Christ will give you light." So be careful how you live, not as fools but as those who are wise. Make the most of every opportunity for doing good in these evil days. Don't act thoughtlessly, but try to understand what the Lord wants you to do. Don't be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, let the Holy Spirit fill and control you. Then you will sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs among yourselves, making music to the Lord in your hearts. And you will always give thanks for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. And further, you will submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” Colossians 3:1-17: “Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven, where Christ sits at God's right hand in the place of honor and power. Let heaven fill your thoughts. Do not think only about things down here on earth. For you died when Christ died, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God. And when Christ, who is your real life, is revealed to the whole world, you will share in all his glory. So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual sin, impurity, lust, and shameful desires. Don't be greedy for the good things of this life, for that is idolatry. God's terrible anger will come upon those who do such things. You used to do them when your life was still part of this world. But now is the time to get rid of anger, rage, malicious behavior, slander, and dirty language. Don't lie to each other, for you have stripped off your old evil nature and all its wicked deeds. In its place you have clothed yourselves with a brand-new nature that is continually being renewed as you learn more and more about Christ, who created this new nature within you. In this new life, it doesn't matter if you are a Jew or a Gentile, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbaric, uncivilized, slave, or free. Christ is all that matters, and he lives in all of us. Since God chose you to be the holy people whom he loves, you must clothe yourselves with tenderhearted mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. You must make allowance for each other's faults and forgive the person who offends you. Remember, the Lord forgave you, so you must forgive others. And the most important piece of clothing you must wear is love. Love is what binds us all together in perfect harmony. And let the peace that comes from Christ rule in your hearts. For as members of one body you are all called to live in peace. And always be thankful. Let the words of Christ, in all their richness, live in your hearts and make you wise. Use his words to teach and counsel each other. Sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to God with thankful hearts. And whatever you do or say, let it be as a representative of the Lord Jesus, all the while giving thanks through him to God the Father.” When one reads these verses they see such things as: “So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you.”… “But now is the time to get rid of anger, rage, malicious behavior, slander, and dirty language. Don't lie to each other, for you have stripped off your old evil nature and all its wicked deeds.” OR “Make the most of every opportunity for doing good in these evil days.” ONE HAS TO ASK ARE THESE NOT ALSO PART OF THE REQUIREMENTS OF SALVATION? My answer is a definite “NO”. Just like baptism is not a requirement for salvation neither is anything that we can do. For if it was possible for us to do these things on our own then we wouldn’t need God. The human problem is that no matter how hard we try to do the things required by the law, we fall woefully short and fail. This is where God begins to work when we surrender to Him. He is the one that gives us the desires to do good to others even our enemies, to be thankful for what we have been given, not envious of others who may have more and so on. The more we allow Him to work the deeper our intimacy with Him and the more we desire to serve Him. As His child, just as with a child of an earthly king, there are responsibilities for us to carry out but in the greater understanding of these responsibilities, we can only carry out the things that are required by further surrendering to Him and then He works through us the things called for in these Scriptures and others. THAT IS WHAT TRUE SALVATION BY GOD IS ALL ABOUT. MUCH SIMPLER THAN MANY TRY TO MAKE IT.

Again as I review this last thought I cannot believe how wrong it is for any Christian. It is clear that Christ died for all. There is not one human that has lived that G-d did not give his life for - and we also know that he cannot keep every one only those that repent. The Traveler ← His free gift of grace; and Confessing you are a sinner and that you now take His payment on the cross for your sins and making Him Lord and Savior. PERIOD THAT IS IT FOR IF YOU TRUELY BELIEVED IN YOUR HEART AND TRUELY CONFESSED WITH YOUR MOUTH YOU ARE SAVED. FOR HE LOOKS AT THE HEART AND KNOWS WHAT YOU REALLY BELIEVED. After this He will help you, guide you and chastise you if necessary so as you become more like Him. I WILL BE BACK WITH MORE POSTS. ← I have no problem with confessing sin - nor do I see any problem in accepting the atonement of Christ. I have problem with those that teach that those that accept Christ have no obligation to live according to G-d command than those that have no access to the good news. What-ever excuse there is to sin - I am against it, specially if it comes from someone claiming to be born of the spirit. The holy spirit does not teach that sin is okay if you are saved. That G-d would save anyone that refuses to give away their sins is stupid. It does not matter if you have confessed Christ or have no idea of Christ - if you do not repent of every sin you will be held accountable. Those that repent will be forgiven. If you know of Christ but refuse to repent on just one single sin you will held guilty of all. The good news I extend to all is that through faith in Christ if you will but repent G-d will forgive you. If you do not repent you have no forgiveness. And my friends if you repent and put away your sins that you know them no more your life will become filled with good works that will shine before man and glorify G-d. Those that claim to know G-d and refuse to shine the light of his glory will realize that such thinking has eternal consequences - it is why the scriptures warn us - for our eternal benefit. The Traveler ← Hey Traveler You are pretty close to my understanding in that repentance of sin is necessary because if there is no repentance of sin then the one asking God to forgive them is only fooling themself. The place that we differ yet is that you say that if you do not repent of one sin you are again guilty of them all. The Bible is clear that once we repent, turn to God and accept Jesus as savior we are a new creation in Christ Jesus the old has past away. All the sins of are past are "as far as the east is from the west" out of God's mind. Future sins are covered by the blood of Jesus however He does want us to recognize we have again failed and ask for forgiveness of these sins though (1 John). This is where the Holy Spirit convicts us when we do sin and helps us recognize the sin. Thanks for your explanation of the G-d thing that you use. Interesting. Paul

Again as I review this last thought I cannot believe how wrong it is for any Christian. It is clear that Christ died for all. There is not one human that has lived that G-d did not give his life for - and we also know that he cannot keep every one only those that repent. The Traveler ← A QUICK POSTSCRIPT; TRAVELER I HAVE NOTICED THAT IN ALL YOUR POSTS YOU TYPE G-D AND NOT SPELL OUT GOD. WHY IS THAT?

Again as I review this last thought I cannot believe how wrong it is for any Christian. It is clear that Christ died for all. There is not one human that has lived that G-d did not give his life for - and we also know that he cannot keep every one only those that repent. The Traveler ← SERG, TRAVELER AND OTHERS Just a quick post of one scripture since I am working on a deeper study of Hebrews 6 to address your belief that one when they are truely saved by the Lord Jesus can lose their salvation. When I get through with my study I will post about it. The scripture I share here is in Galatians 3 (New Living Translation): Galatians 3:1-6 Oh, foolish Galatians! What magician has cast an evil spell on you? For you used to see the meaning of Jesus Christ's death as clearly as though I had shown you a signboard with a picture of Christ dying on the cross. Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the law? Of course not, for the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you believed the message you heard about Christ. Have you lost your senses? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? You have suffered so much for the Good News. Surely it was not in vain, was it? Are you now going to just throw it all away? I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the Law of Moses? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ. In the same way, "Abraham believed God, so God declared him righteous because of his faith." Now here is just another Bible passage that verifies it is about Acknowledging your a sinner needing a Savior; Believing in the Lord Jesus and accepting His free gift of grace; and Confessing you are a sinner and that you now take His payment on the cross for your sins and making Him Lord and Savior. PERIOD THAT IS IT FOR IF YOU TRUELY BELIEVED IN YOUR HEART AND TRUELY CONFESSED WITH YOUR MOUTH YOU ARE SAVED. FOR HE LOOKS AT THE HEART AND KNOWS WHAT YOU REALLY BELIEVED. After this He will help you, guide you and chastise you if necessary so as you become more like Him. I WILL BE BACK WITH MORE POSTS.

Ray You need to go to my posts on Grace vs. Works and you will see that all we need to do to be saved is easy as ABC A - Acknowledge you are a sinner and that need a Savior Romans 3:9-12 "Well then, are we Jews better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin. As the Scriptures say, "No one is good – not even one. No one has real understanding; no one is seeking God. All have turned away from God; all have gone wrong. No one does good, not even one." B - Believe in the Lord Jesus and that He died for your sins on the cross. He rose in victory so we through Him can also be victorious. John 3:18 C - Confess you are a sinner and that you now take Jesus as your Lord and Savior and that you accept His free gift of grace. That is all that is to the salvation process. After that point if you really believed in your heart and really meant what you confessed with your mouth you are saved Romans 10:9-10 and Ephesians 2:8-10. He will now take the rest from here. He will help you to walk in faith and obedience. He will shape you into the vessel He wants you to be. Out of His work you will become more loving because He first loved you even when you were a sinner; you will become more giving because He gave His life for you; you will become more obedient to His word because He was totally obedient to His Father in heaven Hebrews 12:2-3 (baptism and all the other works flow out of this obedience) and so on and so on. For it is Him is is at work in you to will and do as He pleases. IT IS THAT SIMPLE. THE REST IS UP TO HIM TO CHANGE US FROM THE INSIDE. TO TRANSFORM OUR MINDS SO WE WILL THINK AS HE WANTS US TO THINK. FINALLY AT THE END OF OF OUR LIVES IT IS STILL HIS GRACE THAT FINALLY PERFECTS US TO THE POINT THAT WHEN WE SEE HIM WE WILL BE LIKE HIM (1 John something - can't remember)

SERG Had a few minutes to read what you posted here about the use of French words in the BOM. It becomes a major issue in that if you accept the timeline spelled out in the BOM, the Nephites supposedly left Jerusalem in 600 BC and were supposedly here in the Americas by approximately 20 years later. Keeping this in mind there should no longer be an influence of European or Mid-Eastern culture into this group of Americans now since they are half a world away from those areas. Now when one examines some of the BOM words they use one has to wonder how do they get such words long before the French or Greek languages are developed. Here are a few other examples besides the one you mentioned: One area of historical discrepancies, found in the BOM, is related to the use of more modern language or terms or even references to various manufactured items that were not yet invented or developed at the time period in question. Many of these language, terms, and manufactured items were not known until centuries later than the BOM time frame. The following comments address these discrepancies: a. 1N 4:9 (1N 1:109 RLDS) states, “the blade thereof was of the most precious steel” and then 1N 16:18 (1N 5:22 RLDS) says, “I did break my bow which was made of fine steel.” Additional BOM references to steel are found in 2N 5:15, JA 1:8 and ETH 7:9 (2N 4:21, JA 1:19-20 and ETH 3:46 RLDS). Steel, as we know it today, had not been perfected at this time. The Encyclopedia Americana states: “The earliest form of steel was produced in the Catalan furnace in the 1300’s…in the mid-19th century, cast iron and wrought iron were the basic materials for industry and technology…Steel was difficult and costly to produce, by the only processes known at that time, until the Bessemer process (1856) and the Open-Hearth process (1860’s) were developed.” The Encyclopedia Britannica, Volume 6, states the following about iron and steel production: “True iron metallurgy began among the Hittites some time between 1900 and 1400 B.C. …Iron replaced bronze in implements and weapons beginning in the Middle East and Southeastern Europe about 1200 B.C. Pure iron is about as soft as copper and is of little structural value, but it is greatly hardened by the addition of small amounts of carbon. Steel contains up to 2 percent carbon; higher carbon content creates cast iron. Steel making is a melting, purifying (refining) and alloying process carried out at approximately 1600oC (2900oF) under molten conditions.” Based on this information, one must ask, “How could the people described in the BOM have a steel blade, steel bow or shields made of steel?” Shields made of steel would be extremely heavy unless they were very small. The KJV Bible in four locations also refers to steel. These are as follows: 2 Samuel 22:35; Job 20:24; Psalm 18:34; and Jeremiah 15:12. The Hebrew word used here has been translated from the same Hebrew word which means brass or bronze. All newer Bible translations use the word bronze instead of steel at these same Bible verses. If one assumes the same translation variation for the BOM text, then maybe the writer of the BOM was intending to use the word bronze, brass or brazen. Looking up these three words in the Bible, they will find that these metals were used extensively in ornamental items, vessels for worship in the tabernacle, the brazen altar, etc. These metals were even used as armor because they were light. The Bible identifies shields, breastplates, helmets and shin guards as being made of these metals, but no mention of their use in the production of swords or spears since these weapons would require a much stronger material to be effective in battle. The BOM, on the other hand, clearly identifies swords and spears being made of steel. The passages in 2N and JA both state that various things were made out of “wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass and of steel…” Here the BOM lists all four different metals together (iron, copper, brass and steel) as being made. This brings us back to the original question. How could they make things of steel when steel was not produced until after 1300 AD? Additionally, the BOM stretches the issue to the limits of credibility. Specifically, the book of Ether was supposedly about a people who lived from Tower of Babel days until somewhere around 200-300 B.C. before the two warring factions annihilated each other except for Ether and Coriantumr. The BOM is unclear as to when the Jaredite history came to a finish by this final battle, however earlier in the Jaredite history we find the story of Corihor and Shule, ETH 7:1-9 (ETH 3:37-3:46 RLDS), the great grandsons of Jared. Shule made swords out of “steel” and fought Corihor, his brother; in order restore the kingdom to his old father Kib. As stated earlier, the specific time frame is not presented except that one can estimate a time by comparing the historical record and the Biblical account with the BOM account. Most Biblical scholars place the life of Abraham as being between 2000 BC - 1800 BC. Again the Bible places Abraham in the 5th generation from the Tower of Babel (i.e. Peleg - Reu - Serug - Nahor - Terah - Abraham). The BOM account would place Corihor and Shule in the same generation as Nahor or approximately 2200 BC - 1900 BC. Referring to the quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica presented earlier “true iron metallurgy began among the Hittites sometime between 1900 and 1400 B.C.” The historical and Biblical account differ with the BOM account in that Shule made swords out of “steel” even before the beginning of the iron age. One of these accounts has to be wrong. b. 1N 16:14-23 (1N 5:17-28 RLDS) speaks about Nephi and his brothers taking “our bows” signifying more than one, but Nephi’s brothers got real mad at Nephi for breaking his bow. What about their bows? Verse 21 (verse 26 RLDS) attempts to explain this in that the “bow strings” had went out on the other bows. What were these bow strings made of? Couldn’t new ones be made? Nephi then proceeds in making a bow “out of wood” which helps him explain why the Indians had wooden bows and arrows. c. God shows Nephi how to build a ship with ore, tools and bellows. The Encyclopedia Britannica - Volume 2 presents the following: “Bellows - a mechanical contrivance for creating a jet of air, consisting usually of a hinged box with flexible sides, which expands to draw in air through an inward opening valve and contracts to expel the air through a nozzle. The bellows was invented in the European Middle Ages and was commonly used to speed combustion, as in a blacksmith’s or ironworker’s forge, or to operate reed or pipe organs.” As described in the BOM, Nephi was either a product of someone’s (Smith’s) 19th century story telling or someone with knowledge of the use of bellows almost 1500 years before they were invented. d. Made swords like Laban’s sword which was made out of “precious steel” 2N 5:14, Jarom 1:8, Mosiah 10:8, Alma 2:12, Helaman 1:14, and 3N 3:26 (2N 4:19, Jarom 1:19, Mosiah 6:38, Alma 1:66, Helaman 1:15, and 3N 2:37 RLDS). If one examines the archeological evidence in the American Indian ruins, one would note a strange absence of metal products such as described in these and many other verses of the BOM. Furthermore the Jarom 1:8 passage talks about machinery being made in approximately 400 B.C. What type of machinery? Where is the archeological evidence? Reviewing various encyclopedias regarding the Maya, Aztec, and Inca civilizations, one finds that these civilizations lacked draft animals, wheeled vehicles, and metal tools. What tools and weapons they did have were made out of copper not steel. e. Here is the one SERG mentioned. J 7:27 (J 5:48 RLDS) ends the Book of Jacob with the words, “Brethern adieu.” The word “adieu” is a French word which means “good bye”. The problem with the use of this French word is that the French language was not developed or derived from Latin until 700 A.D. How does someone, who supposedly wrote on these golden tablets 500 years before Christ, write a French word that was not derived till approximately 700 years after Christ? f. M 15:5-23 (M 8:32-57 RLDS) presents a discussion about the Son of God and that He would be mocked, scourged, crucified, swallowed up, breaketh the bands of death, having gained, having ascended and satisfying the demands of justice. All of these things that the Son of God was to go through are all presented in the past tense as if they had already happened. This would indicate that the one writing these verses, already knew what was already taught about Christ. Possibly could be an indicator that the writer was someone after the New Testament period. Furthermore, the word “crucified” does not appear in the Old Testament and the only Old Testament references to this form of execution is in the verse “cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree” Deuteronomy 21:23 and the two (2) references of the one “whom they have pierced” found in Psalm 22:16 and Zechariah 12:10. One must ask “Why does the BOM express what Jesus would experience more clearly than any other Old Testament passage?” Probably because it was written much later than suggested (i.e. maybe the 1820’s). g. M 17:11-20 (M 9:16-27 RLDS) is the account of Abinadi’s stand before King Noah and eventually his death, which sounds so similar to what Jesus went through in his trial, scourging and death. Parallels in this BOM passage with the Bibles description of Jesus are as follows: 1. King Noah like Pilate wanted to free him. 2. Priests raised their voices before King Noah 3. Before his death, Abinadi was scourged 4. Abinadi just before his death cried out to God to receive his soul and then he died immediately. One must wonder how such similarities occur in supposedly 2 different incidents written on opposite sides of the earth. Along this same line of thought M 18:1-9 (M 9:28-40 RLDS) discusses Alma and his preaching at the River Mormon and the baptism of the people who accepted what he said. Some of this material sounds very similar to the Bible’s account of John the Baptist. Again one must wonder about the similarities. h. M 29:40 and A 11:24 (M 13:59 and A 8:74 RLDS) has King Mosiah saying “that lucre which doth corrupt the soul” and that Zeezrom loved “that lucre more than him.” The noteworthy part of this is the BOM’s use of the word “lucre”. This word is derived from the Latin word lucrum. Rudimentary Latin was developed in 600 B.C. History records that the early period of literary Latin was from 240-70 B.C. Early Latin had less flexibility and grace than the Greek language; its vocabulary was more limited so they borrowed many words from the Greek language. Early in the BOM Nephi states he was taught in the language of Lehi which later became the reformed Egyptian language according to JS and the BOM text. The Jewish people were not forced to learn Latin until the Roman Empire captured the country approximately a hundred years before Christ. The question is “how does a supposedly reformed Egyptian language or for that matter the native language of the Jews (Hebrew/Aramaic) end up with a Latin word used by a people who fled Israel in 600 B.C. and went to a continent an ocean away from the Roman people where Latin was developed?” i. In A 37:38-42 (A 17:71-77 RLDS), a discussion about the purposes and use of the ball or director which is called a Liahona. When the forefathers had faith in God the Liahona would point the way in the wilderness. When the forefathers did not have faith they did not progress in their journey and tarried in the wilderness. As one checks the earlier parts of the BOM to verify these events the only reference to them being delayed at all, after the finding the Liahona, was found in 1N 18:11-13 (1N 5:190-194 RLDS). This event happened after Laman and Lemuel bound Nephi up after they were already at sea, not while they were still in the wilderness. Furthermore, why would God give them a special device, such as the Liahona, when He led the Israelites in the desert for 40 years with a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night? On top of this God still led the Israelites even though they murmured and complained and even disobeyed God. j. A 50:2-5 (A 22:2-5 RLDS) has Moroni continuing in fortifying all the cities even to the point of building something similar to forts that were common in the America’s in the 18th and 19th centuries. The question that arises was JS relating his BOM story line to things that were going on around him in his day? k. 3N 9:17-22 (3N 4:47-52 RLDS) notes Jesus voice is heard by the remaining people and as one evaluates what is spoken two variances with Biblical and historical facts arise. These are as follows: 1). Verse 17 (verse 47 RLDS) In Christ the law of Moses is fulfilled is true to some extent but Matthew 5:18 states “For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” In Christ it is fulfilled but not completely yet. 2). Verse 18 (verse 48 RLDS) “I am Alpha and Omega”- these are 2 Greek words in a place where the Greek language was not known. Quoting these words to a people who didn’t know Greek language would seem very strange. l. In the BOM, Jesus supposedly repeats the Sermon on the Mount, almost word for word (3N 12:3-14:27 LDS; 3N 5:50-6:37 RLDS) to the survivors of this huge catastrophe. Some items that should be questioned include the use of certain words that were not part of the language of their day or of the Jewish language about 600 B.C. when Lehi and family left Jerusalem. Some of these words are as follows: LDS RLDS bushel 3N 12:15 3N 5:62 jot, tittle 3N 12:18 3N 5:65 raca 3N 12:22 3N 5:70 mile, twain 3N 12:41 3N 5:87 alms 3N 13:1 3N 5:93 closet 3N 13:6 3N 5:98 mammon 3N 13:24 3N 5:115 cubit 3N 13:27 3N 6:5 mote 3N 14:3 3N 6:15 A search through the dictionary reveals an important question regarding the authenticity of the BOM or the description by JS and others in the process of how it was translated (word for word direct translation using the seer stone). If it was a word for word translation with no human intervention other than speaking what Smith saw in the stone, then one has to ask how did words of much later origin find their way into the BOM text? The dictionary reveals this about the words presented earlier in this comment: Word Origin of Word Probable Time of Origin Meaning bushel Old French “boissel” 14th Century A.D. jot Latin “iota or jota” 1500 A.D. The least mark tittle Medieval Latin “titulus” 14th Century A.D. A small part raca Aramaic “rēqā” Not determined Greek “rhaka” mile Latin “milia” 12th Century A.D. 1000 paces twain Old English “TwEgen” 12th Century A.D. two alms Greek “eleEmosynE” 12th Century A.D. closet Old French “kloźet” Not determined mammon Aramaic “mAmOnA” 15th Century A.D. cubit Latin “cubitum” 14th Century A.D. About 18” long mote Old English “mot” 12th Century A.D. Small particle m. 3N 12:41 and 13:27 (3N 5:87 and 6:5 RLDS) have Jesus presenting a part of the Sermon on the Mount in which the words mile and cubit are used. If one reviews A 11:4 (A 8:54-55 RLDS) they would find that the Nephites altered their money and measuring systems to something different than the Jews. The author of the BOM in 3N 12:26 (3N 5:75 RLDS) altered the word “farthing” from the Bible to the word “senine” which was supposedly the Nephites name for a certain coin. Why did the author of the BOM go through the trouble of changing this term and not change the two measurement terms? n. In 1N 20-21 (1N 6:8 - 6:56 RLDS) quotes Isaiah 48 and 49 which has in 1N 21:1 (1N 6:30 RLDS) the word “pastors” being used. Using this term is unique since the word is derived from the French language and means “a shepherd, guardian or keeper of souls, or priest in charge of a church” and was not a word used in the Isaiah period. The French language wasn’t developed until 6th or 7th century AD. How could such a word of later derivation show up in a book that was completed for the most part before 421 AD in a land, an ocean away, from where the French language was developed? The only way a word such as this could enter the text would be if the original writing came from a period later than the 6th to 7th century A.D. (maybe 1820’s). If one searches the KJV Bible, they could find the word pastor or pastors in the following scriptures: Jeremiah 2:8, 3:15, 10:21, 12:10, 17:16, 22:22 and 23:1-2, also Ephesians 4:11. Now one asks how did it get in the KJV. It must be remembered that the original translation process for the KJV from early manuscripts was started in the 16th century long after the French language was developed and the word may have best described what the early manuscripts described. This does not negate the argument against the BOM since Smith and others described the translation process with the Urim and Thummim as being totally straight from God. They didn’t learn the language they supposedly were translating, but only read the translation in the stone(s). o. E 2:16-3:9 (E 1:43-72 RLDS) The Lord directs the brother of Jared and his brethren to build a second set of barges. These verses describe the barges (eight barges altogether) as follows: 1). They were small and light upon the water. 2). Exceedingly tight “like unto a dish”. 3). As long as a tree. How long is that? 4). No windows to let in light, nor holes to let in fresh air, at first. Brother of Jared prays. 5). The Lord instructs the brother of Jared to make a hole in the top and bottom so they could receive air. Why the hole in the bottom? If it is because the ships could turn over, then all contents and passengers would be tossed around, violently. What kind of plan is that? 6). No light inside was allowed even the “light by fire.” The text seems to suggest God didn’t have any solution to this problem. 7). The ships were to be like “a whale in the midst of the sea.” Like a submarine? 8). The ships for the “floods which shall come.” What floods? They are in the middle of the ocean, aren’t they? To solve the lighting problem, the brother of Jared fashions out of molten rock “16-clear as glass” rocks. He then prays for the Lord to touch these rocks and make them shine so they would have light in the journey across the ocean. The finger of God touches each rock and they shine. The brother of Jared sees the finger of God and perceives it to be made of “flesh and blood”. The Lord answers the brother Jared’s question regarding this revelation by stating “Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger...”. No man has as much faith! Where was his faith when he asked about the fresh air and lighting provisions for the barges. Additionally, the Lord said “ye cannot have windows for they will be dashed to pieces...” Is this referencing that the windows would be made of glass? For Noah was instructed to make a window which was probably a wooden door that could be opened to let light and air in. If God instructed Noah to put a window in his ark that floated on a completely flooded earth then why not put the same type of window in these barges that would float on the oceans? From a review of various internet sites one can find that the first true evidence of glass production was around 2500 B.C. about the time of Noah’s flood, however, this glass consisted mainly as beads, seals and architectural decoration. Some 1,000 years elapsed before glass vessels are known to have been produced approximately 1600 B.C. just before Moses was born and long after the Tower of Babel. This brief evaluation on this subject indicated that early attempts to mass produce window glass occurred during the Middle Ages. Several attempts in America for the manufacture of glass products occurred during the 1600’s and early 1700’s. The first successful American glassworks was in 1738 to 1784, however, all of these early ventures, were opposed strongly by the British and eventually failed. Finally, American glass manufacture really took off between 1790 and 1820 when some 63 glasshouses were set up. This is noteworthy, in that the quick expansion of the glass manufacturing industry occurred about the same time the BOM was being written. Does the BOM “Lord’s comment” about not having windows reflect a 19th century A.D. time frame of the writings? SO AS YOU SEE SERG THERE ARE MANY TERMS IN THE BOM TEXT THAT DO NOT FIT THE TIMELINE ESTABLISHED. MANY OF THE LANGUAGE TERMS DID NOT EXIST IN EVEN THEIR RUDIMENTARY FORMS WHEN THE NEPHITES SUPPOSEDLY LEFT JERUSALEM. SO HOW DOES ONE ACCOUNT FOR SUCH THINGS IN THE BOM TEXT. I DON'T BELIEVE YOU CAN COME UP WITH ANY OTHER EXPLANATION OTHER THAN THE BOOK WAS PART OF THE TALE THAT JS WANTED PEOPLE TO HEAR. NOTHING MORE THAN A TALL TALE LIKE THE ONES COMMON IN THAT ERA. CAN YOU EXPLAIN THESE MANY EXAMPLES OF MODERN TERMS USED SUPPOSEDLY IN AN ANCIENT BOOK WRITTEN HALF WAY AROUND THE WORLD FROM WHERE THE LANGUAGE OR TERM FIRST ORIGINATED.

SERG, LIVY111US AND TRAVELER I will try and answer all three of your last posts so we can close in on this concept of grace versus works. I will start by using the principal part of livy111us post and then expand to cover Serg and Traveler posts. livy111us said "What you say is "letting Him use us and work through us", and I say follow Him. Again, I believe it's the terminology that is different." MY RESPONSE There CAN BE a big difference between letting Him use us as His vessels and just simply following Him. Many people say they follow Him but there is none or very little evidence that they are being trasformed by Him into a vessel usable by Him. They may be doing all the religious activities, keeping the laws and commandments but there still is not a change of heart necessary for the sanctification and transformation process that He wants to do. So it can be said that they may have Works but they do not have Faith to believe. They are like the ones mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus will claim at the judgement seat that they had all kinds of good works but they never really believed in Jesus to start with they just do works, even good works, but have no belief in Jesus. So just simply saying you follow Him may not be the right answer yet. ARE YOU SURRENDERED TO HIM AND WILLING TO DO ALL HE COMMANDS? livy111us said "We both agree that once you accept Christ, if a man turns to sin and is unrepentant, and maybe even denies the faith, or whatever the circumstances might be, he [odds are, being that we aren't going to be the judge] will not enter into the kingdom. However, someone who does accept Him and relies on His merits, who follows Him and His teachings [again, not knowing the heart of individuals, nor being a judge, can't know for certain] will end up with the Father." MY RESPONSE One big problem with what you said IS THAT IF ONE ACCEPTS CHRIST and then sins or falls away they cannot enter into the kingdom. So apparently you agree, like in the BOM, that one can lose their salvation and go to hell after they have accepted the Lord. This is in complete disagreement with the Bible's message in that the Bible says if we are truely His then "no one can pluck us out of His hand". Other passages talk about the Holy Spirit being the guarantee that we are saved. So if the Holy Spirit resides within then we are His. Does that mean we will never sin again NO WAY We will still struggle with the flesh as I referred to in Romans 7 and it is only when we are free from this earthly body will we never sin again. livy111us said "As with the Book of Mormon, like I said earlier, as a whole, the Book of Mormon does not teach salvation by works. I have read it numerous times, so many that I lost count years ago, and have not even got the impression that it teaches that." MY RESPONSE I too have read the BOM numerous times that I have lost count and even have a draft of a book about what I have found in the BOM which is what I have posted in part of my responses livy111us said "I believe that it teaches the contrary. Some could pull a few scriptures out and say that it does, but, if someone was to just read Phil. 2:12 alone, they would say the Bible teaches salvation by works." MY RESPONSE You should have continued with the verse Phil. 2:13 where it states " for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose." This is what I have been saying all along. If we have accepted His free gift os salvation and are surrendered to Him then He will work through us to do according to His will. Yes it is true that someone can take a verse out of context and make it say what you want but later I will give you a list of places the BOM is clear in the "works salvation message". livy111us said "I have talked to many who lose respect and become very rude once they find out I am LDS, but thus far, have not experienced it with you. I believe that you are well read in the Bible and have a proper understanding of salvation." MY RESPONSE Thanks and I don't intend to get rude at all. Now I may be strong in pointing out my understanding about what my points are but I hope you don't think I am being rude. Serg a quick response to some of your responses because I have to get back to work. Some of us have to work. God's commands are still required to be obeyed but it is by this new love relationship with Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit that helps us walk out these commands "in fear and trembling" Phil 2:12 Jesus didn't kill the law as you said He fufilled the law. The law had many heavy penalties for disobeying it. Jesus fulfilled the legal requirements and paid the penalties for our disobedience to His commands. He took the burden. Jesus said the Law would still remain every "jot and tittle" until heaven and earth would pass away and the new heaven and new earth come forth. So the requirements of the law still exist for those who don't accept His free gift of salvation and want to make it their own way. If we accept His free gift of salvation then the price has been paid and we are free from the penalty of the law. Along with this freedom though comes the responsibility on our part to act like one of His kids and live our lives for Him. We can only do that with His help and grace. Till Later Posts. ← Paul: First: I do study in Collage and also have to work, so I'll take it as a complement and ratification of our(both) surroundings and not as the ignorant attack it would sound :) . Now as to your response to the first member: Issue 1): Transformation vs. obediance we have Peter's statement: " That the atrial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."</span>1.Pe.1:7-9 Also we find: 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2Pe.1:10-11 Also friend we can point towards this direction: 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1Pe.1:22-23 So my friend Paul, the conversion of a person if seen in order to attain salvation needs both faith and obedience, for one validated the other, no other form. Without a gospel to obey there would be nonsense to preach our word of faith, also see that it states that we are born both from the Spirit and the WORD OF GOD. what is the Word of God? His commandments and His Will. Issue 2) The possibility of 'loosing salvation": We have (i hope) concurred that when we accept Christ we "go from death to life, from shadows to His great light", so we do also as most protestants believe that when we accept Him and enter His body(Church) are "marked" as His(hence we "take His name upon us'), His servants and property for He bought us with His blood, and also are "redeemed"from our sins, and death. So if it matters to you that we call that "state""salvation"well, for the sake of our mutual understanding lets call it that. So we have MANY occasions in the scriptures which relate to "falling from the grace once given", and thats where we cant get a long, you see, you believe that because just of that state of cleanness we are assured salvation, but we as reality see that as long as we live we are exposed to commit SIN, but lets see it: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6 First of all when understanding this: He openly accepts the possibility of members who have once been "saved"(this is reference to our so called "state"of cleanness") to FALL and LOOSE their "salvation". Also see the verse one which states : "THEREFORE leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;" Now why go unto PERFECTION if such was attained at the begining of the conversion? Because its not attained there! If he admits such a concept he openly admits theres a "more perfect"state than that of our so called "salvation by accepting Christ". Also, if the salvation is already attained since the bigining and cant be lost, why do we have statements as that of Peter referring to "make your election , sure" , why if it was already sure? Because its not! Its a matter of your whole life. As Paul said to Timothy: That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. Also we have : Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.Phil.3:12-16 And also my friend we have ; Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that eateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 1Cor.9:24-26 This is sufficient as to prove you not too asserted towards "never loosing salvation" and also as to "never attaining a far more perfected state"than that of your recalled "salvation". Again friends, i give you this thought that has cleared my mind since i'm a member of the Church: <span style=\'color:purple\'>"For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;" Moses 6:60 Now Paul as to your response to me ans traveler, well i wont answer more of your posts if you dont answer each of the scripture above quoted, in both our posts. ← SERG First: Let me apologize if my comment about “some of us need to work” was hurtful in any way. I wasn’t trying to be mean-spirited but was simply trying to state that my lunch hour when I do most of my posting goes by way to fast and I had to get back to work. So accept my apology and I will try to be more careful in what I say. Issue 1): Transformation vs. obedience The dictionary states this about transformation “an act, process, or instance of transforming or being transformed.” It also says this about the word transform “to change in character or condition, convert.” The dictionary states this about obedience “an act or instance of obeying; the quality or state of being obedient.” The word obey has this definition “to follow the commands or guidance of.” So now that we have identified the definitions here let me follow with a summary of what I have been saying about the work of the Holy Spirit in transforming us. He is working from the inside “changing our fleshly character or condition and converting us into the likeness of Jesus—making us holy as He is holy.” It is my contention that the Bible describes this transforming process as the process where we become obedient to His call as we are transformed, not by our works but by His work in us. Philippians 3:21 says this “He will transform the body of our humble condition into the likeness of His glorious body, by the power that enables Him to subject everything to Himself.” This does not sound like it is something that we can do but it is something God does. 1 Peter 1:15-16 has these words “but, as the One who called you is holy, you also are to be holy in all your conduct for it is written, Be holy, because I am holy.” Does any of this sound like something we can do? NO WAY. You rightly quoted 1 Peter 1:7-9 but you did not address the depth of how much we are dependent on God to make us obedient as we surrender to Him in the verses that surrounded it. Be careful that you don’t just take a few verses but look at the context of the entire message being presented Just a few verses before the 2 Peter quote you gave we find this -- 2 Peter 1:3-4 “For His divine power has given us everything required for life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. By these He has given us very great and precious promises, so that through them you may share in the divine nature, escaping the corruption that is in the world because of evil desires.” Here it says He has given us everything required. Again the emphasis on what He has done. You say that “conversion of a person if seen in order to attain salvation needs both faith and obedience, for one validated the other, no other form”. I agree that works validate faith otherwise as James puts it the faith is dead. Again I say that the only way we can do the works that are described by the Bible is with Him transforming us. Not us performing many works to maintain this salvation. It is Him at work in us to cause us to act according to His will. Issue 2) Now to the “loosing salvation": I too agree with what you said “that when we accept Christ we "go from death to life, from shadows to His great light", so we do also as most protestants believe that when we accept Him and enter His body (Church) are "marked" as His (hence we "take His name upon us), His servants and property for He bought us with His blood, and also are "redeemed" from our sins, and death.” I agree that this is what it means to be saved. Now you should have stopped there because what you state next does not fit the scripture. I will address your use of Hebrews 6 by posting what I have written on this subject in my book: CAN WE LOSE OUR SALVATION Several years ago I was asked to teach on the subject “Can one lose their salvation.” Up to that point I had not given much thought to the subject, so I entered into a period of searching the Bible, various commentaries and teachings. The net result of this study was a solid Biblical understanding that if we have truly in our heart accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, taken the free gift of His grace and been washed white as snow with His blood, there is “absolutely no way” we can lose our salvation. Yes, we still sin and come short of God’s best for us, but to go so far as to say we can backslide our way into hell is a mighty big leap into legalistic attitudes and away from God’s grace and mercy. As discussed earlier in the SAVED BY GRACE section, we are not only saved by His grace, but we are kept by His grace. My salvation is not dependent on me, and what I do, but on Him who paid the price and won the victory over sin and death, Jesus Christ, Himself. Again the reader is referred to the much more detailed study on grace and faith in the Appendix. Now what about the very convincing arguments that say one can lose their salvation? If one ever has the opportunity to listen to or read the writings of someone who believes salvation can be lost, they will probably be directed to the following Bible passages: Hebrews 6:4-6 This passage speaks about, “those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance…”. This passage, for sure, sounds like one can indeed fall away (lose their salvation), however, if we examine these verses closely in light of the greater context of the Book of Hebrews and other Bible passages, one will see that is not what these verses are saying at all. The writer of Hebrews presents some very tough words to those who have apparently gotten stuck on the basics of Christianity (verses 5:11-6:3). Their lack of real progress, in the walk of faith, is bad enough; however, a more serious issue is addressed in these verses. Here the Hebrews are rebuked for their spiritual laziness and are compared to little children who can only drink milk but not eat the “real meat of God’s word”. These words of rebuke make it very clear, that those being addressed had not fully understood what Jesus had really accomplished for those who believe. Many of these followers had become discouraged and dissatisfied because there was nothing tangible in the Christian faith that “they could see, handle or touch in the way that Judaism had given them ceremonies, feasts, sacrifices, holy days and rituals.”12 Because of family, or friends or the desire for tangible things they could lay hold of, the Hebrews couldn’t completely abandon the earthly system, of laws and sacrifices that makes up Judaism. For several reasons, they failed to see that real faith in Christ is not the signs, symbols, holy days or rituals, but instead Christ and Christ alone. This is made more evident in Hebrews 6:1-2, where the readers are told to move on to maturity and not remain unfruitful by following the childish things presented below: 1. “Repentance from dead works” is a direct reference to the ceremonial Levitical law. 2. “Faith toward God” relates to Israel’s devotion to Jehovah, however, Christianity requires us to receive Jesus, the Son of God, as Savior and to look to Him as the Mediator with the Father. Jesus is our great High Priest, as clearly explained in the Book of Hebrews. 3. “Doctrine of baptisms” does not refer to the believers baptism described in Matthew 28:19, or the Baptism of the Holy Spirit presented in Acts 1:5. Instead, the plural word baptisms, found in only two places in the New Testament, is more precisely defined as “washings” described in the old Mosaic law. These “washings” refer to the need for purification in order to approach the Lord. The Hebrews were dependent on these “washings” of the Mosaic covenant, which only dealt with external and temporal things and not with the perfected cleansing obtained through the blood of Jesus. 4. “Laying on of hands” refers back to Leviticus 16:21 where Aaron laid his hands on the head of a live goat and put all of his and Israel’s sins on the goat. With Jesus, however, this practice is no longer needed since He offered “one sacrifice for sins forever” (Hebrews 10:9-13) and sat down at the right hand of God, never again to repeat the sacrifice. 5. “Resurrection of the dead” is a direct reference to the general resurrection that the Pharisees and Sadducees disagreed on and the same one that Martha believed would happen to Lazarus (John 11:24). This was certainly a doctrine under Judaism. In Christianity, we are not taught about a general resurrection of both the just and unjust (Acts 24:14-15), but we are instructed of a first resurrection of the elect, saints only (1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-23) and then a second resurrection of the wicked, a thousand years later (Revelation 20:5-6). 6. “And of eternal judgment” also refers to Judaism’s belief in a general judgment, however, the New Testament teaches of a judgment of reward for those who accepted Jesus as Savior and a judgment of the wicked at the “great white throne” a thousand years later. The writer of Hebrews was warning them not to trust in these things and practices of Judaism for in so doing they were laying again “a foundation” of things, which they had turned from when they confessed Christ. They didn’t need these things for our trust must be in our glorified Savior, Jesus Christ. “If a believer is to be blessed of the Lord, if he is to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the deep things of the Spirit, he must, in all things, at all times, under all circumstances, seek God’s will and God’s glory. If we are to go forward in the truth, we must submit to the leadership of His Spirit, for our spiritual understanding must come from Him. All progress in truth is special and definite gift from the Spirit and a man can receive nothing except it be given him from Heaven (John 3:27).”13 Now that we have the background provided in the previous text, let’s look at versus 4-6 cited earlier. These verses have been the subject of many fierce battles between theologians and various religious groups. It is a well established fact, that around these verses, many “religious people believe it is possible for blood-washed, truly born again believers to sin and backslide to the extent of being lost beyond forgiveness, and eternally damned.”14 Who is the writer of Hebrews describing in these verses? Is he talking of born again Christians, or is he presenting facts about those who have not yet accepted Jesus as Savior. These verses make note of the following five (5) expressions: 1. “Who were once enlightened” has to do with the head understanding of the Gospel. The ear has heard it and the mind understood it, but the heart hasn’t believed. They may even unite with the church, profess Jesus as Savior, and tithe regularly, yet they do not possess eternal life (Hebrews 10:26, Romans 1:16, 1 John 1:7, John 3:19-20 and Matthew 15:8-9). 2. “Tasted of the heavenly gift” is another expression used. What is this heavenly gift? The Bible speaks of this heavenly gift in 2 Corinthians 9:15, John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8. It is unquestionably the gift of salvation. Does this mean they were Christians? The Christian, however, does more than taste. They eat and assimilate the Word, which is Spirit and life (James 1:21 and John 6:63). Tasting is not enough. We must eat also and these people only tasted the principles of the doctrine of Christ, but as we learned earlier, they were still adhering to Judaism and the Old Testament system of sacrifices and works. 3. “Were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,” sounds as though they were born again Christians, but the Greek word used indicates that they only shared in the benefit of His supernatural operations and manifestations. They had not only witnessed what the Holy Ghost was doing, but also enjoyed the blessings. They can do many Christian things, but still not be a partaker of Divine nature. Those people went along with Christianity to a point then turned back to Judaism or back to trusting in their works. Jesus fully described this in Matthew 7:21-23. They did good things but had never been really born again. 4. “Have tasted the good Word of God,” means they enjoyed the advantages without making the decision to receive Christ by faith, to allow Him to come into their heart. One can read the promises of God found throughout the Bible and profit from them by finding comfort and consolation in them, but still not be born again. 5. “And the powers of the world to come” again emphasizes the word tasting but not fully receiving or embracing. They probably saw “all manners of diseases” cured, the blind receiving sight and the lame walking. These certainly are the powers of the age to come (Isaiah 35:4-6). In Matthew 12:20-21 Jesus described “the stony ground hearers” who heard the Word, received it with joy, but when troubles came and their faith tested, it was found they had no root. Acts 9 presents Saul’s Damascus road experience but as far as we know only Saul was saved or born again on that day. Based on this discussion, one must ask “Do you believe that God in His love, Jesus in His saving grace, would put a passage in the New Testament to confuse people and frighten those who have truly been born again? Indeed, He would not!”15 John 3:18 says “He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” It is even possible to be used in the performance of miracles and yet not be truly born again (Matthew 7:22-23). A born again person not only repents of sin, but also experiences these spiritual attributes: 1. Is created in Christ Jesus - Ephesians 2:10 2. Becomes “a new creature” - 2 Corinthians 5:17 3. Had a change of mind - Matthew 21:29, Romans 11:29 4. Salvation without repentance is an impossibility - Luke 13:3-5 5. Called out of darkness into His marvelous light - 1 Peter 2:9 Based on these Biblical understandings, one would be “hard pressed” to use Hebrews 6:4-6, as proof that one can lose their salvation. Other passages of the Bible that are quite often used, similarly, as proof that one can lose their salvation are briefly outlined below: Hebrews 2:1-3 One who neglects the salvation provided through Jesus will face far more serious consequences than those who transgressed the law. This instruction is not directed to born-again believers, those who are washed in the precious blood of Jesus, but instead to those who hear the Gospel but will not receive it into their hearts (John 12:48, Hebrews 12:6-8). The writer of Hebrews was trying to impress upon the hearts of his readers that every transgression and disobedience to God’s revealed will received just judgment under the Old Testament law. Since this is true how can we escape judgment if we neglect the message delivered by God’s own Son? Hebrews 4:1-2 To understand this passage, one must begin their evaluation in 3:12 and complete it in 4:12. Many times the writer, of this epistle, calls on his readers to examine themselves in the light of God’s revelation through His Son Jesus. This chapter opens the same way, the connecting verse 3:19 states, “they could not enter in because of unbelief” which is the same admonition to the readers of this epistle. The message of grace, just like the promise to the Israelites coming out of Egypt, began with the Lord and confirmed by those who heard and believed Him, promises eternal life to ALL who believe. This New Testament promise will be fully kept just as the promise of entering into the Promised Land for the Israelites was kept by God (Mark 16:16, John 3:36). The writer discusses how the Israelite fathers failed to receive the promise because of unbelief, which also applies to those who, by unbelief, fail to receive eternal rest in Christ Jesus. The promise of God’s rest is still valid and those who believe will enter that rest. To “come short” indicates a failure to reach the promised rest God has for His own. The falling short comes when one refuses to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and trust Him as their Savior. Do these verses indicate that a truly born again, redeemed child of God can come short of entering the rest provided, through Jesus, to the saints? The answer for this question can be found in Romans 8:31-39. The admonition given in Hebrews 4:1-2 is that every man who hears the Word of God will truly hear, obey with Godly fear, and make sure his or her position before God is founded on faith in what Jesus Christ has accomplished for us and nothing else. The message, of these verses, is clearly to all who had stopped short of complete trust in the finished work of Jesus (1 Peter 1:10). Hebrews 10:26-31 Similar to the discussion presented on Hebrews 6:4-6, this passage is often quoted as one indicating salvation can be lost, but again, the greater context of this passage does not lend itself to this interpretation. The sin referred to here is the sin of willful apostasy and abandonment of a professed faith. They, who once had embraced Christianity, turned away from Judaism and the legal sacrifices for sin and now have abandoned Christianity to turn back to Judaism. They turned their backs on the one sacrifice that Christ made and therefore, have no other sacrifice that would cleanse them of their sin and assure them entrance into heaven. Now those who believe this passage refers to the born again believers must take heed of the difference between “merely receiving the knowledge of the truth” and “receiving the finished work of Christ by faith and being born of the Spirit.” To receive the knowledge is only, a mental understanding whereas the latter is the true heart relationship. 1 John 3:9 states “Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for His seed remains in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God.” This passage deals with whosoever is born of God not whosoever joins the church, sings in the choir, and is baptized and especially “not because he endures, perseveres, holds on, holds out, stays in, or does his best. But because the seed of God is in the inner man, Divine nature cannot sin.”16 Other passages in the Bible that reiterate the same truth are: John 3:6, Romans 6:12-13, Romans 8:23, Romans 8:29, Romans 12:1-2, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 10:31, 2 Corinthians 6:17, Philippians 1:6, 1 Peter 1:23, 2 Peter 1:4, 1 John 2:1-2, 1 John 2:15, and 1 John 3:1. This does not mean that truly born again people will never ever sin again because our old flesh (the old man) still wants to rule. The need to continually crucify the flesh and humbly seek God for victory will always be with us during our earthly lives, whereas, those who are not truly born again have no intention of seeking and submitting to God. The Apostle Paul describes the answer to this battle between the flesh and the spirit in Romans 7:14-8:15. People who profess to be Christians but are continually living in sin, practicing sin, living very worldly lives have never been born again. This warning was to the Hebrews who had received the knowledge of the truth but had not received the TRUTH, Jesus Christ the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE (John 14:6). They turned their backs on Christ having once professed that they believed but one must wonder whether they had really received. They hadn’t put their faith in Jesus’ shed blood. They knew about His blood being shed but had rejected its cleansing power. They are warned, in this passage, as are their many counterparts of today that nothing now is left but the certainty of tremendous fiery judgment (Revelation 6:15-17 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9). The born-again believer will pursue perfection and hunger for holiness, not because, we are someone special but because of God’s work in us. We only will attain that perfection, through Jesus Christ, when we reach the end of our earthly life. “It is not through perfect peace and perfect holiness that we see the Lord: it is by grace through faith! When we have been saved by God’s grace, we are to pursue peace and holiness; but we see Jesus because we are covered by the blood and saved by His marvelous grace”17 (1 Thessalonians 5:23). The Bible references that God deals with us, in the use of the terms blood and consuming fire. If we have truly accepted Jesus as Savior, we are covered by His blood and we will escape the fiery judgment, but if we reject Him as the perfect blood sacrifice, then the only thing left, is to be cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels (Revelation 20:15). As presented above, the scriptures often quoted indicating a born again believer could lose their salvation are usually taken out of scriptural context. During this study on this subject I also ran across many scriptures that clearly pointed to the fact that our salvation is purely and totally in God’s hands. The scriptures presented on the following Exhibit A are just a few that state salvation once obtained cannot be lost for it is God who accomplishes it. EXHIBIT A Isaiah 1:16-20 Sins as scarlet made white as snow Isaiah 12:1-3 The Lord is my strength and my song Mark 9:41 Can’t lose reward Luke 15:7 Why the celebration if we can lose salvation John 6:27 Food that endures to eternal life John 6:44 I will raise him up at the last day John 10:28 Can’t be plucked from His hand John 17:11-12 None has been lost except Judas Acts 4:12 No other name by which we are saved Romans 5:8-11 Justified and saved by Jesus Romans 8:12-17 Received the spirit of sonship Romans 8:28-39 Who can take us away from His love Romans 9:15-24 God decides on the call Romans 10:9-11 Confession and belief lead to salvation Romans 11:28-31 The gift is irrevocable 2 Cor. 1:18-22 Who has sealed us by the Spirit Galatians 4:4-7 Adopted sons and heirs Ephesians 1:3-6 Predestined as adopted sons Ephesians 1:11-14 Sealed by the Holy Spirit Ephesians 4:30 Sealed for the day of redemption Philippians 1:3-6 He who began a good work Philippians 2:12-16 Work out salvation with fear and trembling 1 Thess. 5:8-9 God did not suffer us to wrath 2 Thess. 2:13-15 Saved by sanctifying work of the Spirit 2 Timothy 2:19 Foundation stands having this seal Titus 3:4-7 Saved not by works but by His mercy Hebrews 12:1-2 He is the author and finisher of our faith 1 Peter 1:3 Gift of salvation protected in heaven 2 Peter 1:3-4 Divine power gives us everything Revelation 7:10 Salvation by His grace Revelation 19:1 Salvation belongs to God Revelation 22:17 Take free gift of water of life So which do you accept that after all Christ did for you on the cross that it is now necessary to live your life in hopes that you can do enough to keep that salvation He bought with His precious blood. This is what Paul asked the Galatians. It seems to me that if God went so far to die for us so we could be saved that He is also able to keep us. The efforts to keep ourselves pure must be driven by the power of the Holy Spirit from within not as some effort that we put forth. I hope I have addressed this aspect of losing our salvation. TILL NEXT POST

SERG, LIVY111US AND TRAVELER I will try and answer all three of your last posts so we can close in on this concept of grace versus works. I will start by using the principal part of livy111us post and then expand to cover Serg and Traveler posts. livy111us said "What you say is "letting Him use us and work through us", and I say follow Him. Again, I believe it's the terminology that is different." MY RESPONSE There CAN BE a big difference between letting Him use us as His vessels and just simply following Him. Many people say they follow Him but there is none or very little evidence that they are being trasformed by Him into a vessel usable by Him. They may be doing all the religious activities, keeping the laws and commandments but there still is not a change of heart necessary for the sanctification and transformation process that He wants to do. So it can be said that they may have Works but they do not have Faith to believe. They are like the ones mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus will claim at the judgement seat that they had all kinds of good works but they never really believed in Jesus to start with they just do works, even good works, but have no belief in Jesus. So just simply saying you follow Him may not be the right answer yet. ARE YOU SURRENDERED TO HIM AND WILLING TO DO ALL HE COMMANDS? livy111us said "We both agree that once you accept Christ, if a man turns to sin and is unrepentant, and maybe even denies the faith, or whatever the circumstances might be, he [odds are, being that we aren't going to be the judge] will not enter into the kingdom. However, someone who does accept Him and relies on His merits, who follows Him and His teachings [again, not knowing the heart of individuals, nor being a judge, can't know for certain] will end up with the Father." MY RESPONSE One big problem with what you said IS THAT IF ONE ACCEPTS CHRIST and then sins or falls away they cannot enter into the kingdom. So apparently you agree, like in the BOM, that one can lose their salvation and go to hell after they have accepted the Lord. This is in complete disagreement with the Bible's message in that the Bible says if we are truely His then "no one can pluck us out of His hand". Other passages talk about the Holy Spirit being the guarantee that we are saved. So if the Holy Spirit resides within then we are His. Does that mean we will never sin again NO WAY We will still struggle with the flesh as I referred to in Romans 7 and it is only when we are free from this earthly body will we never sin again. livy111us said "As with the Book of Mormon, like I said earlier, as a whole, the Book of Mormon does not teach salvation by works. I have read it numerous times, so many that I lost count years ago, and have not even got the impression that it teaches that." MY RESPONSE I too have read the BOM numerous times that I have lost count and even have a draft of a book about what I have found in the BOM which is what I have posted in part of my responses livy111us said "I believe that it teaches the contrary. Some could pull a few scriptures out and say that it does, but, if someone was to just read Phil. 2:12 alone, they would say the Bible teaches salvation by works." MY RESPONSE You should have continued with the verse Phil. 2:13 where it states " for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose." This is what I have been saying all along. If we have accepted His free gift os salvation and are surrendered to Him then He will work through us to do according to His will. Yes it is true that someone can take a verse out of context and make it say what you want but later I will give you a list of places the BOM is clear in the "works salvation message". livy111us said "I have talked to many who lose respect and become very rude once they find out I am LDS, but thus far, have not experienced it with you. I believe that you are well read in the Bible and have a proper understanding of salvation." MY RESPONSE Thanks and I don't intend to get rude at all. Now I may be strong in pointing out my understanding about what my points are but I hope you don't think I am being rude. Serg a quick response to some of your responses because I have to get back to work. Some of us have to work. God's commands are still required to be obeyed but it is by this new love relationship with Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit that helps us walk out these commands "in fear and trembling" Phil 2:12 Jesus didn't kill the law as you said He fufilled the law. The law had many heavy penalties for disobeying it. Jesus fulfilled the legal requirements and paid the penalties for our disobedience to His commands. He took the burden. Jesus said the Law would still remain every "jot and tittle" until heaven and earth would pass away and the new heaven and new earth come forth. So the requirements of the law still exist for those who don't accept His free gift of salvation and want to make it their own way. If we accept His free gift of salvation then the price has been paid and we are free from the penalty of the law. Along with this freedom though comes the responsibility on our part to act like one of His kids and live our lives for Him. We can only do that with His help and grace. Till Later Posts.