paul6150

livy111us You apparently agree that salvation is totally about what God does and that it lines up with "what we teach". Not that I want to disagree with someone that seems to be agreeing with me but if I remember your bio-info says you are a member of the LDS. If that is true then how do you line up the teachings in the BOM and the D of C with the message of the Bible? The BOM clearly teaches a "works message" sometimes intermixed with the grace message. It can't be both ways. Either it is by grace or it is by works not both. Works, in the Biblical sense comes out of the outpouring of God's grace through those who believe in the Lord Jesus but the BOM emphasizes a "works message". So how do you justify your stance on salvation? Paul, I am now a little confused. You say that we cannot be saved by Grace if we are saved by works, and vice versa. A point may have been missed. As I said earlier, it doesn't matter how much we do, how many times we read the Scriptures, and do good to others, without Christ, we could not enter into heaven. However, once we have accepted Christ, we must follow Him. It would mean nothing to go back to believe on Him, be on the path of salvation,and then turn to sin down the road, and be unrepentant. We must continually believe and follow Him. Hence, the enduring to the end spoken about in previous posts. I think there may be a terminology barrier between us. When I say works, I don't mean salvation that I can attain on my own without Christ, but, the necessity of following Him. Once we believe and accept Him, all is not done [which was discussed in earlier posts]. I believe we are saying the same thing using different words. In reference to the works/grace in the Book of Mormon, I see no discrepancy. I believe the same could be said about the Bible when only select verses are read. The Book of Mormon does teach this same belief that has been discussed. ← Paul'sResponse We are close in our words but still not there. What I am saying is that the Bible is clear that Jesus paid the price for us to attain heaven. All that He asks of us is to accept this free gift, confess our sins, recognize we cannot do it without Him and ask Him to be our Savior and Lord. Remember the gift of grace (unmerited favor) is a free gift - it doesn't cause us to say we now have to live perfect lives and never sin again and then He will allow us in heaven (which is what I contend the BOM teaches). When I get back to my house I will post a summary of places where the BOM teaches this type of "maybe I will get into heaven" message. What the Bible does say is that once we accept Jesus truely in our heart and have truely accepted Him as our Savior (remember He knows what our real motives are in our heart) then He through the work of the HOLY SPIRIT will begin to transform our hearts from being selfish and unkind and stingy and unloving, etc. etc. into someone who is giving, loving, kind, etc. etc. (see Galatians 5 for the fruits of the flesh and fruits of the spirit at work). This is described in the Bible as the sanctification, transformation, renewing and justification parts of our walk with Him. During these times we will still follow the ways of the flesh on occasion and sin but that is when His grace will cause you to recognize we have sinned and cause us to once again confess our sins and He will cleanse us (1 John). This is what I described in the earlier post to you as the 2nd and 3rd options that can happen each hour of each day. Paul when he wrote the Book of Romans (many years after his Damascus Road experience) he described the war going on in him between the flesh and the spirit and then at the end of Romans 7 says "who is going to save this wicked wretch that I am". Paul then answers his own question by saying Jesus will save him. This sanctification, justification, transformation process I say the Bible describes is carried out by God who is at work in us to will and do what He asks. We are called to pick up our cross daily (surrender ourselves as living sacrifices - Romans 12:1) and die to self and what the flesh wants and let Jesus rule and reign as Lord of my life. This killing of our fleshly desires does not come easily and we need His grace to carry through with every aspect of the dying process. Thus it comes about that it is His grace at work in the whole process as I contended before. If it is left up to us to carry out this sanctification process by what we do, then we will either choose: to fail in doing the work or we will boast that we have done such good things and expect Him to let us in to heaven. Jesus said to those who come to him in the end times and say Lord Lord look what WE have done in your name. WE cast out demons blah blah blah and Jesus says Away with you I never knew you (Matthew 7:21-23). They were doing good things but they were boasting about what they were doing. I will end now by saying once again what I contend the Bible says is that the whole process is a work of God's grace and nothing that we do other than accepting it and letting Him use us and work through us. WE ARE HIS VESSELS AND HAVE TO LET HIM USE US AS HE WANTS NOT AS WE WANT.

livy111us You apparently agree that salvation is totally about what God does and that it lines up with "what we teach". Not that I want to disagree with someone that seems to be agreeing with me but if I remember your bio-info says you are a member of the LDS. If that is true then how do you line up the teachings in the BOM and the D of C with the message of the Bible? The BOM clearly teaches a "works message" sometimes intermixed with the grace message. It can't be both ways. Either it is by grace or it is by works not both. Works, in the Biblical sense comes out of the outpouring of God's grace through those who believe in the Lord Jesus but the BOM emphasizes a "works message". So how do you justify your stance on salvation? Paul

livy111us Yes Christ is central to salvation but the Bible goes even further in that it is saying that in the enduring part we must be dependent on God to give us grace and strength to continue. I don't know how your days go but there are many temptations each and every hour of every day that I must either: 1) call on Jesus for help to endure the attack from Satan or the flesh; 2) fall into the temptation and sin; and 3) call on Jesus to forgive for my failure to be obedient. In each of these options God's grace has to be there. For example under option 1) it is the power of the Holy Spirit and the power of the Blood of the Lamb that helps us resist. Two scriptures that come to mind are: James 4:7 "Submit yourselves, then to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." NOTE what James said in 4:1 - 4:6. He mentions they were fighting and quarreling, killing and coveting, asking but not receiving from God because they were asking from the wrong motives, they were friends with the world and so on. In other words they were falling into temptation. What does James say we need to do -- Submit to God for if we don't submit to Him we cannot resist the devil or if we try he will not flee. But the saint who is submitted to God cannot be touched unless for some reason God allows Satan room to manuever in our lives such as in the case of Job. Revelation 7:14 "...they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Another scripture comes to mind "they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony" but I can't find the Bible address right now. Under option 2) it is the power of grace (unmerited favor) and the wooing of the Holy Spirit that convince us we must repent and be washed anew. Jesus said to Peter when he refused to have his feet washed "...unless I wash you; you have no part of with me." Referring of course to the salvation process. Then Peter wanted to be totally washed. Jesus declared that once you are washed (believe in Jesus) you have no need for another major washing but you still get dirty and need the feet washed. This is a strong statment that after salvation we still need to be forgiven of the sins we commit but that we still retain our salvation. Can't lose our salvation as described many times in the BOM. And finally under option 3) it is God's grace that once again cleanses us when we confess our sin to Him. In my previous post I noted what Martin Luther said about the type of faith where we fall upon Jesus in total surrender. This is the kind of faith that endures to the end. If we base our endurance on our ability to pull up our "bootstraps" and struggle through life then we will not have the type of joy that Jesus says we will have. Jesus said "My yoke is easy and My burden is light". How can He say that if it is not Him who is helping us to endure to the end. So in closing it is still all about Him. To Him be all the glory, power and honor forever and ever. I hope that answers that question. Paul

Serg You are right about my belief that I am saved by what Jesus did on the cross and I simply believe (John 3:18) in Jesus' completed work - the "perfect sacrifice" offered for the sins of the world. And you are right that it is also about love. For John 3:16 says that God so loved the world..." and as 1 Corinthians 13 says that we can have all the faith and works in the world yet if we don't have love then they amount to nothing. This leads me to an understanding that if my motives, when I do "works" is not for the glory of God then it is nothing more than filthy rags (Isa. 64:6). So in the whole salvation process it is all about what Jesus did and nothing about what we do (our works). Yes once saved we will be asked by God to step out into uncomfortable areas by faith but the faith we need is supplied by God. He through the power of the Holy Spirit gives us this faith. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22). I disagree with what you say about the first set of verses you quoted in your incoherent post. These verses (some of which I have quoted in my previous post) are about confessing before others that I believe in the Lord Jesus and what He did for me and the fact that He died for my sins. It is not about preaching. One who is called to preach or teach does so because they are first saved by Jesus and they do what God directs them to do by the unction of the Holy Spirit. Again those who are truely called by God to preach are doing that work by the power of the Holy Spirit "...as the Spirit enabled them..." Acts 2:4.. You mention the "ritual to get saved" in your post. It only becomes a ritual if you truely don't mean what you are speaking. Romans 10:10 says "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." So if you don't believe in the Lord Jesus and what He did for you "in your heart" then the words are meaningless. Again "works - speaking with your mouth" without "faith - in your heart" is nothing more than words. It doesn't matter what words you pray to admit you are a sinner in need of a Savior but rather they be what you feel in your heart. For God looks upon the heart not on what we do. I also disagree with what you say about the second set of verses you quoted. Ephesians 2:8-10 says "...we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus...". If you look up the Greek for the word "workmanship" you will find the Greek word "poem'ea" which is also the root word for poem. We are God's poem or His masterpiece "created in Christ Jesus" to accomplish the works that He had prepared for us from the beginning of time. Again it is not about us but it is about what Jesus did. As I said before love is more important than faith, however love (real love in the Biblical sense) springs out of the love relationship of Jesus with the Father in that He chose to be obedient to the Father even to death on the cross (Hebrews 12:2). It is out of that love that God has for us (John 3:16) that we can love others and be willing to sacrifice ourselves for others. Remember also that "love" is also a fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22). In summary I again say it is not about what we do but about what Jesus did. David in Psalm 51 states it this way "You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; You do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God, are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart. O God you will not despise." Till later posting Paul

Have the Jehovah Witnesses been messing with my bible again? Mine doesn't go up to 2 Thess 4:3. ← Lol, 2 Thess. 4:3 is right between to 2 Jacob, and D/C 142. Good eye! The correct scripture is 1 Thess. 4:3 ← DIDN'T SEE THIS TOPIC OPEN UP RIGHT AWAY. NOW THAT IT IS OPEN I WILL ADD WHAT I BELIEVE THE BIBLE REALLY IS SAYING ABOUT FAITH AND ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH WORKS. I TOO GOT LOST IN THE SIMPLE QUOTATION OF ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES IN THE FIRST POST ALTHOUGH THEY ARE VERY IMPORTANT SCRIPTURES SERG DID NOT COUPLE THE IDEAS TOGETHER NOR WAS THERE ANY COMPARISON MADE TO LDS THEOLOGY ON THE SUBJECT. HERE IS SOME OF MY THOUGHTS AND SOME COMMENTATORS DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THIS TOPIC. SAVED BY GRACE The Bible, in Ephesians 2:8-10 states: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (NAS). Romans 3:21-24, also states, “But now apart, from the Law, the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed (attested by) the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (NAS - emphasis by me). As noted in these two, and many other Bible passages, the Bible’s message is very emphatic that salvation and our assurance of entering heaven comes as a free gift from God. We cannot earn it, nor do we earn merits, which are applied to an invisible heavenly bank account, for our good behavior as some believe. The reason for this is that no matter how good, our good works, they are still not good enough to satisfy the stringent requirements of God’s law and satisfy His requirements for complete righteousness with perfect holiness (Isaiah 64:6-8). We know that much of the message that clearly defines salvation by His grace is presented in the New Testament; however, the Old Testament in numerous accounts portrays the “saved by grace not by works message.” Just to mention a few Old Testament passages that relate this message, this author recommends one read: Genesis 32:10, Psalm 51:16-17, Isaiah 1:16-20, Isaiah 61:10, Daniel 9:18-19 and Zechariah 3:3-7. Throughout, the Bible, salvation is presented not as some special achievement of man for the good things he has done, but as an undeserved act of God upon totally sinful man. Salvation, defined another way, is not the culmination of man’s search for God, but instead, God’s initiative towards man. “God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” Romans 5:8 (NAS). “Before we ever thought about Him, He thought about us. God’s love doesn’t measure worth or works before you are acceptable to Him. Additional New Testament passages that describe God’s move toward us can be found in, John 3:16-17 and 3:27; John 6:44; Galatians 3:24-26 and 4:5-7; 2 Timothy 1:8-9; Titus 2:11-13 and 3:4-7; James 1:17-18, etc. The Bible also goes so far as to say that believers are not only saved by His grace and mercy, but that they are also kept by His grace (John 17:11; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:5). Martin Luther stated “Man on his own cannot prepare himself in the slightest for the reception of the gift of God. The natural man is not in a quest for God, but in flight from God.”2 Luther also said, “Because of sin within man, his works will always fall short of the righteousness that God demands. Even our works after conversion cannot merit God’s forgiveness, they can only attest and proclaim Jesus Christ alone is our righteousness not our own works.”3. Philippians 4:13 states “I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.” The key words of this passage are “through Christ” who is the source of our strength. Before we can find the peace God provides we must first recognize that we have very little strength to accomplish what is required of us by our God. Micah 6:8, Deuteronomy 6:5 and 10:12-13. The Apostle Paul stated in 2 Corinthians 12:10 “Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then I am strong.” The Lord told Paul in verse 9 of this same chapter “my grace is sufficient for thee for my strength is made perfect in weakness”. In the act of salvation, man is to be regarded as helpless to save himself but, through Christ’s victory, the believer becomes an overcomer and a conqueror (Romans 8:37) when the Holy Spirit indwells him and gives him power from on high. See also these passages: 1 Corinthians 15:10; Colossians 1:29; Philippians 2:12-13 and Revelations 12:10-11. Martin Luther was correct in his summary that good works are not what makes up grace, but instead grace is the very source of good works. “For works do not drive out sin but the driving out of sin leads to good works.”4 FAITH ALONE Before Saul of Tarsus became a Christian, he was a strong believer in obedience to the law which was the way, he believed at that time, to get closer to God. However, after his conversion he recognized that it was by God’s grace and faith in Jesus Christ. Romans 9:16 even emphasizes the Apostle Paul’s strong belief that our faith is also a gift of God. Man’s ability to respond to God’s call “depends not upon mans will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.”5 The Bible also declares that Jesus is not only the author of our faith, but also the finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2; John 10:28). Consider the statement by William Gurnall, a 17th - century English Puritan preacher, regarding Hebrews 12:2, “God is at the bottom of the ladder, and at the top also, the Author and Finisher, assisting the soul at every rung in its ascent to any holy action. And once we have begun a work, how long will we stick to it? Only as long as we are held up by the same hand that empowered us at first. We quickly deplete the strength He gives us. So to maintain the permanence of a holy course, we must have a renewing strength from heaven every moment.”6 “Luther distinguished between the ‘faith which believes what is said of God is true’ and ‘the faith which throws itself on God.’ It is the latter which is the true saving faith, though such faith will certainly entail a right understanding of the meaning of the cross.”7 It must be fully understood that faith is not just a simple decision, but also more so a complete surrender to Christ. One must be convinced that God’s word is true, on this matter of faith, even if the whole world should disagree with them. Martin Luther warned, “You should not believe your conscience and your feelings more than the word which the Lord who receives sinners preaches to you.”8 And again, “This is real strength to trust in God when to all our senses and reason He appears to be angry; and to have greater confidence in Him than we feel”9. Joshua 3:15-4:24, describes this type of faith. The Levite priests that bore the ark of the covenant had to be standing in the floodwaters of the Jordan River before the waters parted and “the Israelites passed over on dry ground” and had to remain there until all the Israelites had passed through on dry ground. “We are not only justified by faith alone, but we must also walk by faith alone. The man of faith clings to the promises of Christ in Scripture even though he may not have a direct awareness of the divine presence. He ventures forth without any outward security even though he may not understand the direction in which God is leading him. He ventures forth sometimes against all logic and reason out of fidelity to the inward call that comes to him from God. His believing is a joyous daring upon the unknown and untried goodness of God. (Luther).”10. The same applies to Gods grace, His gift of faith is renewed, in us, as we look to Christ and throw ourselves on His mercy, even though our flesh and heart may fail us, we still press on to victory in Christ knowing that God’s promises will never fail (Psalm 73:26). “The Epistle of James presents some difficulty, since it is expressly stated that ‘a man is justified by works and not by faith alone’ (James 2:24). However, James is speaking of faith as intellectual assent, not faith as the commitment of the whole person to the living Christ (as in Paul’s writings). Moreover, he is referring not to the works of the law (which preoccupy Paul) but to the fruits of faith. Our justification is exhibited and carried forward by the practice of our faith, though its ground or basis is in the free mercy of God.”11 2 Martin Luther, W.A. 12, 497. cf: As cited by Donald G. Bloesch in Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Volume 1, page 193. 3 Luther’s works, Volume 34, page 113. 4 Luther’s Works, Volume 35, page 10. 5 Donald G. Bloesch in Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Volume 1, page 182. 6 William Gurnall, The Christian In Complete Armour, Abridged by Ruthanne Garlock, et al, The Banner of Truth Trust. Copyright 1986, Volume 1, page 34-35. 7 As cited by Donald G. Bloesch in Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Volume 1, page 224. 8 Martin Luther, W.A., Volume 27, page 223. 9 Martin Luther, Treatise on Good Works in Works of Martin Luther (Philadelphia: A.J. Hollman, 1915), Volume 1, Page 192. 10 Martin Luther, “Sermon on July 25, 1522,” W.A., 10 III, 239. 11 Donald G. Bloesch in Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Volume 1, Page 228.

To put it simply, "adieu" was the word Joseph Smith chose to use to represent what Nephi? (was it?) said or meant when he said what he said.For those who don't know, a prophet usually speaks with his own words while expressing the thoughts he is given from the Lord, through the power of the Holy Ghost. Or in other words, our Lord and the Holy Ghost don't always give prophets the exact words to use when giving inspiration and revelation, and instead they usually give thoughts and impressions which are interpreted into words by the prophet who receives them. And for those who want some evidence of this, study the words of the prophets and you should be able to notice that every prophet has their own way of saying or writing certain things, even though they are all basically saying the same things, and even though some prophets give a little more detail or express their thoughts in words that are easier for others to understand. And btw, Joseph Smith was fairly familiar with the Bible both before and after he was ordained as an apostle of our Lord, and sometimes he chose to use some of those words in the Bible to translate what the Nephites had written in their scriptures. For instance, the Nephites didn't speak in the King James vernacular either. Anyway, you simply need to understand the process whereby we receive revelation, while trying to understand what someone says to you when they explain how they believe it was done. ← I agree with your analysis, Ray which is why I don't get bent out of shape with horses, cement or adieu. Joseph could have simply used the word(s) from HIS frame of reference to express what the Spirit was telling him. But this is inadequate to describe the use of old/new testament scenarios appearing in the BoM. In my example, it is simply more than just 'Jesus teaching timeless truths'. It is an almost word for word quote of Christ talking to the Pharisees with just the names changed to charge the guilty - 100 years before Christ uttered the complaint. In Ether a glaring example: Ether 8: 10 10 And now, therefore, let my father send for Akish, the son of Kimnor; and behold, I am fair, and I will dance before him, and I will please him, that he will desire me to wife; wherefore if he shall desire of thee that ye shall give unto him me to wife, then shall ye say: I will give her if ye will bring unto me the ahead• of my father, the king. Compare with Mark 6 and the beheading of John the Baptist by a tempting dancing daughter: How interesting that an almost identical scenario occurs twice in scripture? Don't get me wrong - I WANT to believe. I am one of the strange people who love Mormonism but can't quite make myself believe it lock, stock and barrel. But I am trying. Situations like these don't make my job any easier. InActiveTx ← You happened to mention the word "cement" and it reminded me of my notes about the temple construction and the use of cement. Here is some interesting things to ponder on. Lehi and Saraih initially had four sons namely Laman, Lemuel, Sam, and Nephi when they left Jerusalem (1N 2:5) no mention of daughters at this time. Two additional sons were born in the wilderness namely Jacob and Joseph (1N 18:7). Zoram, the servant of Laban comes with them (1N 4:31-37). Ishmael and his wife join them with at least 5 daughters and 2 sons. No mention of Jacob, Joseph and two sons of Ishmael having wives, but let’s assume they did take some of the daughters of the other five to start their families. How many people would there be in 40 years assuming twins are born each year? Laman, Lemuel, Sam, Nephi, Zoram and their wives could have had up to 160 children by the time the oldest children are 16. Then with Jacob, Joseph, and two sons of Ishmael now married, four new couples can begin having children each of the following years. Mathematically there would then be 1500 or more people inhabiting this land by the end of the 30th year. The BOM text throughout these years does not suggest any other children of Lehi or Ishmael except the reference to “my sisters” (2N 5:6). We don’t know how many sisters there were or whom they married but even under the best of conditions (twins each year) there could not have been over 3000 people in this 40 year period. If one follows the BOM story line we see the division between the Lamanites and Nephites (2N 5:6) where the Nephites, the larger group decided to move. The Nephites made swords, built buildings, even a temple, like Solomon’s temple. Some pretty awesome accomplishments for such a small number of people. Some other interesting questions can be garnered from this section of the BOM (2N 5:5-34). 1). Solomon’s temple took a workforce of 30,000 laborers, 150,000 stonemasons and haulers, and 3,300 supervisors- a total of seven (7) years nonstop work to complete the temple (1 Kings 6:9-38). In the BOM we have an approximate workforce of 200 to 300 able-bodied men and maybe some older children building many buildings and a temple “after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things... and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine” all within a 10-12 year period. 2). Solomon’s temple was 90 feet long, 30 feet wide and 45 feet tall. The portico in front of the temple extended the width of the temple (30 feet) and was 15 feet in front of the temple. Solomon’s temple originally had another building around the outside consisting of small side rooms where the priests who took care of the temple stayed. Based on this information and the 2N 5:16 statement about a temple similar to Solomon’s temple one must ask “where is any archeological evidence that depicts a temple this big?” All the archeological ruins in Central America depict a much smaller buildings on top of pyramids. This does not seem to agree with the BOM description of the temple built like Solomon’s temple. 3). 2N 5:16 contradicts what was just stated, in the previous verse, in that “it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land” whereas verse 15 states that Nephi “did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance” . None of the remaining archeological ruins indicate construction with metal let alone precious metals such as gold and silver. 4). If one studies the information presented by the archeologists who have examined these Central and South American ruins, they will find the following facts: a) They had no draft animals or wheeled vehicles which is contrary to what the BOM states in A 18:9 and 20:6; 3N 3:22 and 21:14. Any reference to horses would be contrary to archeological facts obtained from the ruins. The BOM, however, indicates “their land is full of horses” E 1:21. B) Writings from the Mayan civilization was made on stone slabs or pillars; lintels and stairways; and on folded sheets of fibrous paper made from the inner bark of wild fig trees. Many exist today. The Aztecs used pictographic writings (conveying messages by drawing pictures). These pictorial writings were typically recorded on paper or animal hides. Many of these writings called codices are in existence today. The Inca’s probably did have some writings; however, archeologists have not found any to date. Information about the Inca’s came from the oral tradition passed from one generation to the next. There is very little evidence, if any, that indicates writings on metal plates as the BOM describes. c) The common people of these civilizations probably lived in dwellings that were made of adobe or palm-thatched huts as seen today among their descendants. The BOM states that the Nephites “became exceedingly expert in working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement in which they did dwell” H3:7, 9 and 11. The word cement is derived from the Old French language which was not developed until the 6th or 7th century A.D. Again it must be asked how a French word gets into a work allegedly completed no later than 421 A.D. Furthermore, there is no archeological evidence that backs up the use of cement in the pre-Columbian Americas. Cement is defined as a finely ground powder that when mixed with water sets and hardens into a solid mass. The ancient Roman civilization made cement from lime and volcanic ash and used it extensively in building their empire. In 1824 a British engineer, by the name of Joseph Aspdin, patented portland cement in which limestone and clay are the two most common raw materials. These ingredients are crushed and ground into fine powder, blended to the desired proportions and heated in a kiln at very high temperatures. It is also interesting to note that the patent was issued in 1824 just a few short years before JS began writing the BOM. Many newspapers carried the news about this new useful product. A likely possibility is that JS during this time period may have incorporated it into the BOM. One must wonder if that is why this word shows up in the BOM. d) The religion of these Indian civilizations was polytheistic (many gods) not just one God as we find in the Judeo/Christian beliefs. The following is a brief summary of these Indian religious systems: Not far from the temple pyramid stood a much smaller building which some describe as a house of idols, diabolism, serpents, and having many tools needed for carving the bodies of the sacrificial victims. The Aztecs believed in a system of 13 heavens and 9 underworlds which had over 900 gods. They had gods for commerce and industry; gods for merchant-adventurers; gods for imperial armies; gods for potters, basket weavers, mat makers; gods of agriculture; gods of fisherman; gods of earth, air, fire, and water; gods of mountains, volcanoes; creator gods; gods of medicine; and gods for flowers which strange people loved. The Mayan religious system was similar to the Aztecs in that they had a pantheon of nature gods and other duties. Some of these included: gods of abundance; rain gods; gods for travelers; medicine gods; gods of the chase; gods for fisherman; gods of maize, food plants, cocoa. Principally, the Mayans had 13 major gods and a host of minor gods. The major gods included: the death god, weather god, sky deity, moon god, maize god, war god, merchants god, sun god, serpent deity, water goddess, god with ornamented nose, old black god, and the end of the year god. The Mayans had numerous idols. There was not an animal or reptile that didn’t have an image for it which was worshipped as a god or goddess. Additionally torture and human sacrifice were a fundamental part of the Mayan religious rituals. The drawing of human blood was thought to nourish the gods and was thus necessary to achieve contact with them. The Inca religion also had multiple gods that they worshipped. Ancestor worship was an important feature of the Inca system. Each tribe or clan would have mummies of the kinsfolk to which were offered vases, clothes, plumes and the like. They had gods of the ocean, the earth, fish, harvests, and the moon. The Inca religion combined features of animism, fetishism and worship of nature gods. e) The final point to be drawn from the studies made of these Native American peoples was the time frame when these civilizations existed: Aztecs settled on Lake Tezcuco which later became the capital of the empire somewhere between 1140 and 1327 A.D. They flourished until the 15th and16th century A.D. until defeated by the Spanish. The earliest known period of the Mayan civilization was approximately 260 A.D. when they began building temples and pyramids. They were overtaken by the Spanish and disease by approximately 1540 A.D. The Inca civilization started to build their empire, as early as 1438 A.D., and within 100 years had gained control of 12,000,000 people. Many BOM believers point to these great civilizations as evidence that there was a great Nephite civilization. However, the timeline for each civilization as determined by archeologists does not fit with the BOM narrative and cannot be the supporting evidence for the BOM. In fact both LDS and RLDS authorities have indicated that there is very little archeological evidence that corroborates the BOM. So as you can see there are other things that indicate there is some problems with what the BOM says.

Hey Serg The last I looked I posted last under the previous topic. Although it doesn't cover all of your point it is a starting point. I am working on the rest of my response to your post. Paul

thanks for your reply and your concern. However, I have a different take on the whole grace vs. works debate and would rather not discuss it here in this thread - a new one maybe? I know that Jesus died for me personally - its hard not to read any standard work and not get this message loud and clear. But thanks for reminder. InActiveTx ← I am all for a discussion about grace vs. works. Nmae the place where you want to chat about this topic.

INACTIVETX I have posted some other BOM passages that also have a lot of New Testament scriptures or other errors such as in the quoting of Chapters 3 and 4 of Malachi but not Chapters 1 and 2. Jesus invited all that are heavy ladened and burdened and He will give them rest for His yoke is easy and His burden is light. The Gospel message of salvation as presented in the Bible is really clear and to the point. All Jesus asks of us is that we simply believe. John 3:18 states "Whoever believes in Him is not condemned but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." In Acts 16:31 Paul answered the jailer "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved you and your household." In Ephesians 2:8-10 states it this way " For it is by grace you have been saved through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is a GIFT of God - not by WORKS so that NO ONE can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do." You see the salvation message presented in the Bible has nothing to do with what we can do (our works) but in what He has already done. All He asks of us is to believe in the Lord Jesus and what Jesus has done in dying for our sins. THIS IS WHAT THE GOSPEL IS ALL ABOUT. You are questioning the authenticity of the BOM and rightly so for throughout its pages you find a strong emphasis on our works as being the way to heaven. THIS DOES NOT AGREE WITH THE BIBLE'S MESSAGE. I strongly encourage you to not look for a witness from the BOM but rather believe in the Lord Jesus and that He died for you personally. His blood covered your sins and the sins of the whole world. All He asks is that we take up this free gift and believe.

I sorry Josie but Jesus wasn't the teacher in all the BOM passages I included in my last post. In fact the majority of them were in 1 and 2 Nephi. How can you explain that it was Jesus speaking to them there?

"What Talmage's book has to say about New Jerusalem is that Zion and Jerusalem are often used interchangeably and sometimes have distinct meanings. The prophet Micah talked about both Zion and New Jerusalem as being geographically established in the tops of the mountains. To some that might sound like Salt Lake City. Book of Mormon prophets were more specific than Micah and pinned the location down to the American continent. Early LDS Church leaders specifically said that the location of the City of Zion, New Jerusalem would be centered around the town of Independence Missouri. Of course that's not in the tops of the mountains or even close so just as Mormons might have different understandings of New Jerusalem, so might have the prophets of God. I think it is fair to say that a generally prevailing thought among the LDS people is that Zion is not always or not just physical location but it is also a state of mind and a unity among God's people and whether the saints are gathering to the mountains in Salt Lake or maybe later to New Jerusalem in Missouri, when we are united in faith, there is Zion." paul6150 says the following: All of this discussion of where the New Jerusalem is to be located or that some of it must be taken as an allegory still doesn't address the fact that in J Smith's day they talked and preached about a physical New Jerusalem that they would build first at Kirtland Ohio and then Independence Missouri and I don't know where else. They talked and preached about it and some still do talk about building this New Jerusalem. I remember reading some newspaper articles when they were building the RLDS Temple and even then they were saying that the New Jerusalem was coming. The Zionic kingdom was to encompass an area 1400 miles by 1400 miles centered around Independence Missouri. How does this compare with the fact that the Bible describes the New Jerusalem as something real yet not man-made. All the attempts of man to build something spiritual kingdom have utterly failed. Only God could build something like the New Jerusalem no one else. He is the author and finisher of our faith Hebrews 12:2 look to Him and not to our own abilities to live a just life Isaiah 64:6. Maybe there needs to be a better understanding of what the Bible text says about the New Jerusalem. I will spend some time reviewing some commentaries.

I came across an intersting discussion item in my Book of Mormon studies when compared to the Bible. It is interesting but it raises more questions. Can someone answer these things I found? 3Nephi 20:22 states that “this people will I establish in this land…a New Jerusalem…I will be in the midst of you.” This passage states that the New Jerusalem will be in America. If one examines the many teachings of Joseph Smith and others on this subject, they will find a prominent mention of the New Jerusalem in the America. Their teaching was that the New Zion would be centered at Independence, Missouri. Which the RLDS claim to own the ground that was to be the place for the temple in the middle of this New Jerusalem. The Bible, however, does not describe the location of the New Jerusalem nor is it said whether it is even on the new earth. It comes down from heaven according to the Bible. 3Nephi 21:23 further states that those who belong to the church will help build this city called New Jerusalem. If this city comes down from heaven how can they help build it? Also in reading the Bible’s description of what the New Jerusalem is made of one has to ask how anyone but God can build such a city, for example: a. The New Jerusalem will come from heaven when there is a new heaven and new earth. (Revelation 21:1). b. The New Jerusalem will be prepared “as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.” (Revelation 21:2). c. “It shone with the glory of God” (Revelation 21:11) d. “It had a great high wall with twelve gates” (Revelation 21:12). e. The wall of the city had 12 foundations (Revelation 21:14). f. The measurements were that of a square cube about 1400 miles on each side (2,744,000,000 cubic miles in total volume) (Revelation 21:16) so how is it going to be centered on Independence, Missouri?. g. The wall at its base measured approximately 200 feet thick and was made of jasper and pure gold. The foundations made of 12 different types of precious stones. (Revelation 21:17-20). h. Each of the 12 gates were hewn out of single large pearls. The city had pure gold streets that were “like transparent glass.” (Revelation 21:21-22). Can anyone help to understand these issues and answer these questions.