[When you marry, what would you love in your mother-in-law?]

My mother in law has greatly contributed to the approaching end of my marriage. If I could turn back time and answer this question to her, it would be, what I would value most would be her determination to respect the proprietary boundaries of my family.

The way I see it, every healthy marriage consists of a three way relationship consisting of Husband, Wife, and God, all linked to each other at the same time. If at any time the husband or wife lets go of the other, if everyone is still holding on to God, there remains the opportunity for husband and wife to reconnect with each other. I also believe that the relationship between husband and wife supersedes all other mortal relationships, including even their own children.

I've drawn a diagram of this before to explain it to a neighbor who was a bit too interested in my wife. In the center I drew the aforementioned triangle. Around that I drew a circle and labeled it "children". Around that I drew a circle and labeled it "relatives (including parents of the husband and wife) and close friends". Around that I drew a circle and labeled it "other friends and acquaintences". I told him that for me, he was in that last circle, but was attempting to come between me and my wife in the center.

My mother in law has done the same thing, even if beginning her approach from a more central circle. It hasn't helped that my wife has cleaved unto her instead of me. For example, when my wife and I were first married, we both hated country music. But after a visit to her parents house, out of state, she came back liking it. Sounds like something trivial, but it was little things like that which snowballed into my wife leaving me with our kids to go live with her mom because she loves her more than me.

My mother in law ought to have encouraged, and even demanded that my wife come back to me, but she has been too happy to have her daughter back with the grandkids to boot. My mother in law and my wife have done all day Temple trips at the nearby Temple, making the same covenants every other endowed LDS makes, so you know what I'm talking about. Neither one of them has noticed or cared that my wife is violating her Temple covenants. At the very least I would hope my mother in law would be cognizant of that. But there seems to be a matriarchal order where they live, and I have seen it filter out respect for men and Priesthood. Maybe they're just so immersed in that philosophy that they can't see.

At any rate, that's my advice. Once your son marries, be sure to remember that his relationship with his wife comes before his relationship with you, and that you must not allow yourself to do anything that will adversely affect his marriage. Interfering would be a disservice not only to your daughter in law, but to your son too.

[Infidelity]

Wow. Deja vu.

My wife never physically cheated on me, as far as I know, but has been emotionally unfaithful in the past, many, many times. I'd rather not get into that right now, as I've already spent a lot of time doing that in the thread about having a spouse who wasn't a virgin when you got married.

Let me just say that I see enough similarities between my situation and yours to feel like sharing with you. My wife, as I said, was emotionally unfaithful for a long time. At one point I caught her emailing love letters to an old boyfriend, and I installed a keylogger/screenshot capture program on our computer. By the time she came back home from visiting her mother, we had worked things out. If she was unfaithful after that point, she didn't use the computer to do it. I got tired of checking up on her and eventually uninstalled the program.

There were times that I felt she loved her old boyfriends more than me. She even started being inappropriately familiar with a neighbor at one point. But I have learned over the last six months that her infidelities were only a symptom of the real problem.

She has also been abusive to me in virtually every way possible, and it shames me to admit that I often returned fire for fire. This too was only a symptom of the real problem.

I'm reading these posts where you talk about your husband waffling back and forth about the divorce, and I can see it's rubbing off on you. I don't mean that to sound bad. Let me put it this way. You're husband's not thinking right, at least not consistently, and you're in this marriage with him. It's like you're both in the same car, and he's driving. He's driving recklessly, and when he takes a turn too fast or spins out of control, you're in that car with him. Does that make sense? You're having to deal with his uncertainty and indecisiveness. He's taking you along with him for a ride, and where you both go is up to him, in a way.

My wife is the exact same way. Our marriage is about to end for basically the same reason. A friend of mine, who knows a LOT about psychology, told me he thinks my wife has Borderline Personality Disorder. The quickest way I can think of to explain it is your husband or my wife - exhibit A. My wife, for example, cannot decide how she feels about anything, at least not permanently. Her opinions of people, places, things, those opinions change like the weather sometimes. When we met, she adored me. Then she got bored with me. Then she came to resent and despise me. She has at times waffled back and forth, though over the years she's spent more and more time despising me and less and less time loving me. She left me so she could go live with her mother, and she didn't mind taking the children with her to do that. It's almost been six months, and with them about to become legal residents of another state (with horrible divorce laws), I was forced to file myself, just to get the kids back. I still don't want a divorce. I gave my wife all the time to come back to me that I could, and even now, I still don't want a divorce. I just want the kids back. I want her back too. If she throws me away, it will be entirely her decision. I want to reconcile.

I'm a codependent. The quickest way I can think of to explain how that has affected my marriage is to to say that it's the only way anyone could have put up with what I've endured in 13 years of marriage to someone as selfish, abusive, and cold as my wife and still love her, faults and all. I completely understand how hard it is for you to let go of your husband. That's a decision you have to make for yourself, but don't let anyone tell you you're a freak because you can't let go. If everyone was as forgiving as a codependent is with their spouse, we'd all be almost as forgiving as the Savior Himself. No one falls in love as hard as a codependent. You sound like you know what I'm talking about. Sounds like your husband has the same problems my wife does. I think Heavenly Father pairs people like you and me up with people like our spouses because people like us are their only hope for a lasting marriage. No one else I know would have been able to stay with my wife this long, or even for a few years. I hear people tell me that all the time.

If your husband rejects you, know that he will likely be throwing away his only shot at the Celestial Kingdom. He can always repent, but if he can't do it now with everything that's on the line, he's not likely to do it for someone new in the future. It's doubtful to me that he'll be able to replace you.

Now don't go getting a big head though. Nothing is ever 100% all one person's fault. Please don't be offended at what I'm about to say. I have no idea if this applies to you or not. I'm just putting out some food for thought. If you're like me, you're probably looking desperately for something about yourself that you can change, to take some control over this situation. You can't change others, but you can change yourself, and changing yourself can become more appealing when you're in an unpleasant situation that you want to end or at least become less painful.

A friend of mine committed adultery and his marriage ended as a result. But to those who know the whole story, there's more to it than that. She was abusive to him. In fact, he thinks she has the same thing that I think my wife has. She was constantly tearing him down, criticizing him, and she was also physically abusive. Eventually he found himself growing emotionally attached to a coworker, and she initiated an intimate relationship with him. He could have resisted, but he didn't. Of course he was at fault for not resisting, even if he wasn't the one who initiated it. There's no excuse that absolves him of his participation in that relationship. But I firmly believe that if his wife had agreed to marriage counseling, had taken ownership of her behavioral issues, and had shown him more appreciation, respect, and warmth, if not actual love, he would have resisted that extra-marital relationship, at the very least on the physical level. Now my friend is divorced and remarried, and he says he had no idea marriage could be like it is for him now. He was shocked and amazed to find out what it's like to come home to a person who doesn't hate you, yell at you, scream at you, hit you, kick you, criticize you, and despise you. He has disagreements and frustrations in his new marriage, but he says they're nothing at all like what he knew as a way of life before.

I think about this a lot now, in my own situation. I am still clinging to hope for my own marriage. I don't want to lose my wife. She is the only woman with whom I've ever shared my body, my soul, and my life. I gave her the best years of my life. I have no children but what I've had with her. I have so many sacred, special memories of her. So many memories of holding her in my arms, of so many intimate embraces that I'll never forget. Heck, I even remember all the times I held her hair behind her back in a ponytail and gave her a glass of water when she was sick and throwing up. Not exactly a kodak moment, but I'd be there, rubbing her back with one hand and holding her hair out of the way with the other. I cared for her. I still do. She means everything to me, and she won't talk to me. She deleted her email account. I have to email her mom to get any message to her, and her mom doesn't think very much of me either right now, because I won't walk away from a mortgage of $140k on a house currently worth less than half of that, the best job I'll ever have, and everything else that makes where I live, where she and our children lived before she left me, the place Heavenly Father tells me He wants us to be. She chose something else over me. Sounds like your husband did the same thing.

But it also sounds like there's more hope for you. Sounds like your husband is trying a bit harder than my wife is to stay together. Not hard enough, perhaps, but there does appear to be some hope.

I know what you mean about wanting him to do the right thing for your sake and not just his own. You want his repentance to include remorse based on how he's hurt you. And it sounds like his remorse is limited to regret for having gotten himself into trouble. Maybe he'll move on to shame for what he's done to you after he deals with what he's done to himself. You would know better than me. I can tell you that one morning, in the first year of my marriage, my wife woke up bawling and wailing, burying her face in my chest. When she became coherent enough to tell me what was wrong, she said that she'd just had a bad dream about how she had treated her old boyfriends, and that she wanted to make ammends with everyone she'd hurt in the past. While I wanted to applaud her for that, I also felt it was inappropriate for her to contact old boyfriends, and was really hurt by the remorse she had for how she had treated them, yet seemed oblivious to the fact that she had already been treating me badly. I felt she ought to be more concerned about how she had treated me, or at least concerned at all. If she ever has felt such remorse, it has only been while not in my presence. I have given up waiting for it to be exhibited to me. But for that matter, I'm on a path where I will eventually have to give up waiting for my wife to come back to me, or wanting to remain married to me at all.

I'm hoping your situation and mine are similar enough that you can glean some useful insight from what I've been through, yet different enough that your marriage won't end the way mine is about to (without some kind of miracle). For the past four months I've been praying constantly for people just like you. I will continue to do so.

One final thought I'll leave with you. Lately, most of the answers to my prayers regarding my situation have been "Don't give up". Obviously, I'm not a quitter. I wasn't sure what it was I wasn't supposed to give up on. I eventually concluded that Heavenly Father doesn't want me to give up on my wife, regardless of whether or not she gives up on our marriage. I think He wants me to leave every opportunity available to her that I possibly can, for her to come back to me and honor her Temple covenants. Whether or not she does the right thing, I intend to "leave a light on" for her. Maybe even after the seemingly imminent divorce. My Patriarchal Blessing says that my wife, the mother of my children, will eventually learn to love me as I love her. If a miracle happens, maybe she'll do that before it's too late. I don't want to be alone too much longer. My wife's been gone for over five months now. I'm constantly tempted to browse the online dating sites just to see what else is out there, so I can allow myself to believe it's not the end of the world if I lose her. By the way, I have done a little browsing (though I haven't gone so far as to register), and I can tell you that 28 is not a bad age to be making yourself available on an LDS dating website. That's pretty much the average age I saw among the women out there. If you want to hang on to your marriage and not give up, I commend you. But if your marriage ends, for whatever reason, and you decide to find someone new, It sounds like you think it would be a lot more difficult than it probably would really be. So don't stop believing in yourself.

Okay, one more "final thought". Early on, one of the answers to my prayers was that "No matter how this turns out, you're going to be okay." If I were you, I'd pray about that, for yourself. I may have an outcome to my own situation that I prefer, but at least I know that if I don't get what I want, I'll get something else just as good or better. That has been a comfort to me at times.

God bless.

[What if your spouse had a sexual partner before marriage?]

Okay, after reading through all the posts, it turns out that a minority of the people here were capable of at least trying to walk in jjsmith99's shoes. Now I'm going to share my own personal experience, and provide another target for the peanut gallery from the Jerry Springer show. And maybe jjsmith99's situation won't really compare, but hopefully at least I'll be able to better illustrate the Divine wisdom behind the law of chastity, and why we shouldn't be handing out medals to people who broke it and bashing the victims over the head. Of course, in the end, there is repentance, but incomplete or insincere repentance is not a license to bash people like me or jjsmith99 for the emotional damage we receive.

I am a codependent. I am the jealous type. I lack confidence and can sometimes be insecure. This does not make me the devil, or worthy of contempt, but in the spirit of honesty, I'm explaining where I'm coming from. As for my wife, I am convinced that she has Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), though it's never been diagnosed. It's very difficult to diagnose and is often mis-diagnosed as Bi-Polar. There is certainly no doubt that my wife has some very serious and deep seated psychological problems and behavioral disorders, including depression, panic attacks, anxiety attacks, suicidal thoughts, etc. But the main culprit, as I see it, is the BPD. In layman's terms, long story short, it means that she idealizes people, places, and things, and then later on devalues them. Her attitude toward everyone and everything is in a constant state of flux, independent of the world outside her mind.

My wife began "flying solo" at a pretty young age, and it began as a twisted fantasy about being pregnant. By the age of 12, she was exposing her fully developed body to boys out of doors, in broad daylight, and allowing them to manually inspect it as well. By the time I met her, when she was 19, she had A LOT of carnal experience with several boys/young men. I'll spare you the details, but while she was technically a virgin, she had experienced everything else imaginable other than what would have to take place for her to not be, in only the strictest sense of the word, a virgin. I'm talking about multiple partners, and extremely physically intimate behavior.

When I met her, she was considering ending the most "explorative" relationship she'd ever had, but needed encouragement. I did everything I could to encourage her to repent, get along better with her parents (among other things, she had "Daddy issues"), and after working with her to help her through all that, we fell in love. Actually, she behaved as if she fell in love with me and was very affectionate and warm, which caused me to fall in love with her. We both professed our love for each other, and she promised me that she would never kiss another man. I assumed that she was so warm to me because she appreciated my help. Looking back, I can see that she was idealizing me, because of the BPD.

It wasn't long after that when I found out that she had started dating a guy in her Institute Ward, had been alone with him in his apartment for a candle light dinner, during which he wore no shirt, gave her a rose, and they kissed. I almost dumped her when I found out, but her mother convinced me to forgive her because she had raised her daughter to be a boy crazy date-a-holic and she was not used to being in a relationship that was emotionally serious and exclusive.

When we got engaged, the plan was I'd keep my job, get a house, and she'd move out to live with me after we were married. She changed her mind and demanded that I move out to where she lived, move in with her parents, and after a month or two of that, she got bored with me, like she did with every boyfriend she had ever had, only we were engaged, so she felt like she couldn't dump me. She went ahead and married me even though she had fallen out of love with me (unbeknownst to me). Our marriage was rocky from the moment we attempted to consumate it. She had been so wild and out of control before, but with me, after she had gotten bored with me, and especially after we were married, she was an iceberg. She really tried to make the physical part of our relationship work for a month or two, but eventually gave up.

I would occasionally hear stories about old boyfriends. I'd hear very graphic stories about what they did together. I'd hear a dreamy tone in her voice as she very fondly remembered and vocalized the steamy details, as well as the emotional attachment she had with them. Every one of them seemed to be better than me in some way. With one of them, she recalled having lots of really deep and meaningful conversations. With one of them, she had for years afterward regretted not going all the way with him, and had commented to me on one occasion that a certain part of his body was bigger on him than on me, and then she asked me if it was possible for me to permanently increase the size of mine (I realize this is a bit outside the realm of polite conversation, but imagine how I felt hearing it!). There was one boyfriend I caught her writing love letters to, and whom she had been seeing platonically (with our children with her) while out of state and visiting her relatives. There was another I heard about who she had always considered "the one", and for whom I found out at one point she wanted to leave me. The list of bad memories goes on. And a lot of them took place after we were married. I'v only listed a portion of them, pre and post marriage. It would be nice if they had stayed in her past, but they generally tended to show up in the present, even if only as vocalized memories or a diary that my wife apoplectically insisted on not getting rid of.

The way I see it, her bad behavior has been a result of a psychological problem, which is even now threatening to end our marriage. But I'm not up for getting into that right now. I only add this tidbit to show that willful and repeated breaking of the law of chastitiy is a VERY SERIOUS problem, and we should take it more seriously. In my own experience, it's been a symptom of an even greater problem, an extremely harmful behavioral disorder that harms or ruins all kinds of relationships (including platonic ones).

If it's not obvious to you, try to imagine how it feels to buy the cow and find out that all the milk is gone. Imagine that the cow keeps wandering off in the direction of the guys who stole the milk. I can't speak for jjsmith99. Maybe in his case there's plenty of milk today, and maybe he's just a bit jealous that some was given out before he bought the cow, in which case I'd still empathize. That may or may not be the case. Let's withhold judgment, shall we?

In my case, my wife had been EXTREMELY wild before I met her, and after we were married, she turned into an iceberg. I tried everything I could think of to make her happy, and to awaken her desires. She didn't even want to try. Some days she was nice, and some days she was as mean as a junkyard dog. Even on nice days, her heart was very rarely in it.

One time I told my wife that her coldness to me, all the limitations, hang ups, and walls that she put up between us, and all the enthusiasm she seemed to have for neighbors, old boyfriends (at least three of which I know that she interacted with socially after we were married), and so on, all made me feel that she loved them more than me. She told me I was right.

I'm all for leaving the past behind. I never liked to talk about the girl I was in love with before I met my wife, though for some odd reason she actually liked for me to talk about her, and specifically told me so. I wanted my wife's past to go away. But she kept her old journals, which contained lots of sordid stories about old boyfriends she refused to let go of. She kept telling me very graphic and sleazy stories about back seat adventures, and on the rare occasions when she was enthusiastic about our intimacy, the circumstanes at hand always seemed to remind me of one of those stories she'd told me. I wanted to leave her boyfriends in the past, but she visited with two of them behind my back while visiting her relatives, and she contacted another after a fight we had one day, got him to give her copies of old love letters and pictures which she kept for years until I found them, and even had us double dating with this guy and his wife, whom he appreciated about as much as my wife appreciated me. While I was at work, she'd go visit him at his office and he'd brag about his "manhood" and stamina. One day while I was at work, he even came over and was playing with my son to show what a good step-dad he would be. Yes, I'd love for these guys to be in the past, but they were often in the present too.

I'm sure some of you will find a way to blame me for all this. I'm a guy, so it must be my fault, right? My wife went to visit her mother in August for what was supposed to be a month. She never came back. She has our children with her and refused to send any of them back. They're approaching six months out there and would soon have legal residency there if I had not filed for divorce, which was the last thing I wanted to do because I still love my wife. I could not have been married to her for 13 years with all this stuff going on if I didn't love her very, very much. After she got the papers she said she would never speak to me again and has deleted her email account. Again, her inability to let go of her past is only a symptom of a bigger problem here.

Now it may be that jjsmith99 is holding on to something his wife let go of a long time ago. It may be that her repentance, unlike my wife's was genuine. It may be that he is holding on to something that even he knows he needs to let go of and wishes he could, and it may also be that he is the only one in the world who ever thinks about that particular past. What I'm trying to say is that we live in a culture that contains a fondness for fairy tales and "they lived happily ever after". We are all encouraged from childhood to believe there is a soulmate out there for us, rather than a random meat market where we just inspect the product, make a purchase, and believe that depending on what both spouses put into it, virtually any two somewhat compatible people could have a lasting and fulfilling relationship. At the age of 10, I knew all I wanted out of life was someone to love with all my heart, who would love me back just the same. I knew that was the be all end all of human existence, even long before I had ever heard of Celestial glory or eternal families. Before I met my wife, I fell in love with a girl I thought was the one, but I never even kissed her on the lips (though I always wanted to when I was with her), because it never felt right. I never let anyone but my wife see me naked unless they were changing my diaper. I never touched any part of a woman that would be covered while she was swimming in a public pool until my wedding day. All my experience with intimacy was acquired with my wife. I can't imagine how I'd feel if she had her past, but left it in the past. But what I do know is that the past she wanted me to forget was also a past that she herself refused or was unable to forget. She blamed me for holding on to it, when it kept resurfacing in her own life.

My case may be a bit extreme. If I were to imagine myself in jjsmith99's position, I'd ask myself if there was anything in the present, apart from my own thoughts and actions, that kept the unsavory past alive. If there was, even if only because I perceived it, I'd ask my wife for help understanding why I felt that way, and ask her to help me figure out a way to deal with it. If more help was needed, I'd seek it. I would want to include her in my struggle with it, whether she had any blame in my inability to get past the past or not. I believe spouses should completely share their lives with each other, the good and the bad. I believe a spouse should be willing to help their spouse bare their burdens, as well as share in their triumphs. I believe any married person's life should be merged in every way possible with their spouse's. I believe married people should help each other through this life, and share in all the happiness that comes with it. Maybe there is something jjsmith99's wife can do to put the past behind her too, maybe not. Talking about it, in a spirit of humility and love, is a must. Communication is important. We all must never despise people for not seeing things our way. Rather, we should convincingly present our case to them, and maybe they might agree with us then. Or maybe they might cause us to agree with them. Without communication, opposing viewpoints tend to resent each other, and become more entrenched.

The most basic point I'm trying to make is that one of, if not the principal reason for the law of chastity is to prevent the emotional pain that people feel when they are reminded that their spouse did not save themselves for marriage. My wife was worth it to me, as was Heavenly Father's approval of my behavior. It hurts when your spouse devalues you, and that's how I feel when I realize how little was new for my wife after we got married. I should have been the first. She shouldn't have had other men to compare me to, and she did so unfavorably. I know full well the price to be paid for breaking the law of chastity. I paid the price, while my wife never exhibited any signs of regret that I could see. It is not a victimless crime to break the law of chastity. While there is a place for forgiveness for the transgressor, there should also be understanding for the one who pays the emotional price for that transgression.

Don't hate jjsmith99. Don't preach at him and be "holier than thou". Try to understand why he feels the way he does, and you'll be better equipped to give him advice. Life isn't a piety contest (the scribes and Pharisees demonstrated what happens if it becomes one). Life is about helping Heavenly Father keep from losing as many of His children as possible, out of a spirit of love and humility. Don't judge. Instead, encourage righteousness, and assist those around you in finding it.

[What if your spouse had a sexual partner before marriage?]

I haven't got time right now to read through all these replies to the thread originator's initial post, but the replies I've read so far have been what I was expecting to see. For people dealing with this situation, I've found that this isn't the best place to come for much else than a reprimand.

I don't have time right now, but when I do, I'll return and explain why someone like jjsmith99 actually is not the devil incarnate and deserves a little understanding. It may be that he is wrong for feeling the way he does, but it doesn't make his pain go away to rub his face in it, and that's assuming he's as guilty as the first page worth of replies would imply.

This is all I can say at present. I'll be back later.

[Are you a gamer's widow?]

Whatever you do, just remember that you catch more flies with honey.

Gamers like me get addicted easily. We don't see the problem. We wonder to ourselves why we're being hassled when we provide for our families, aren't abusing anyone, make it to Church every Sunday, etc. We feel like our spouses are trying to be domineering and control us because they see us doing something "unfashionable". We see pettiness in those who criticize us, but not ourselves. The addiction blinds us.

The last thing you want to do is confirm those suspicions.

Overcoming gaming, or dealing with a spouse who is addicted, needs to be a delicate process. I would recommend taking steps. First, maybe start with suggesting no new games. The addict will only play the same games over and over again for so long, and then they'll get bored with them. That will help break the addiction. Next, I'd try to find something to lure the addict away from the addiction. It has to have a powerful enough attraction to lure the addict away. What that is for every person may be different. What worked for me was spending time working in the yard, with the lawn and the trees. After having to live in Arizona for six years, it was a blessing and a relief to have a yard with trees and grass. Nature has been very theraputic in my case. But the lure from the games needs to be tailored to suit your spouse's interests.

All men are suckers when it comes to one thing, and while I wouldn't recommend using it to get what you want, if you dangle a particular shiny object in front of any man with a pulse, he'll become a lot more pliable. Again, I wouldn't recommend using it to get what you want, but it does have the ability to get a man's attention in a hurry. Just a thought. Be prudent with this approach. Be careful and judicious.

Another thought: it helped me to see my addiction as not being the typical behavior of a man, and I was allowed to come to that conclusion independently. To a point, gaming was how I dealt with feeling like a shut in and a prisoner in a desert suburbia (I'm from the rural midwest). Plus, I didn't really fit in with anyone out there, but when I came back home, I noticed that I didn't know the things that a man should know because I didn't spend time doing the things that most men do. In other words, I felt kind of "un-manly". This motivated me to spend more time doing more "manly" things like yard work, fixing vehicles, home repairs, etc. And the fulfillment I felt at feeling more like a real man helped keep the cravings for games away.

Whatever you do, don't withhold your love as punishment for the gamer. Don't make him feel judged or persecuted. Encourage him to redirect his attention. I wouldn't advise trying to make him see himself as strange for being a gamer, even if he's not paying enough attention to his family, but if you can very carefully help him see that his addiction is unhealthy, that might be a good idea at some point. But you have to help him see, not make him see. You have to be very careful too, otherwise you'll do more harm than good and you'd actually be better off having left him alone.

Just let him know that you love him, that you need him to spend less time on it, and make it clear why. Make sure your reasons are more compelling than "it makes you look dorky to me." If you don't he will probably assume that you just want to control him. Gamers don't think they're hurting anyone. If you suggest otherwise, you need to be careful about it and have some convincing evidence or testimony.

In my addiction, I'd have gladly stepped away from the computer to spend time with my wife when I felt loved by and emotionally safe with her. If she asked me to step away, I needed to feel it was because she wanted me to be with her, spend time with her, etc. If I thought she wanted me to step away just because she didn't find what I was doing to be cool enough, I'd stay at it out of protest.

Love will lead the addict away from the games a lot faster than anger or contempt (real or perceived) will. Wear the kid gloves and be patient. Chastisement, derision, bitterness, impatience, judgmentalism, pomposity, etc., will all make things worse than if you just left the gamer to himself to game for as long as he wants.

Your gamer may be able to still game once in a while without it being a problem, once the addiction is broken. You need to let him decide what's best, ultimately. I still game once in a while, if I'm bored and can't think of anything else to do, if I'm home alone for a few hours, etc. And maybe I'll feel the need to beat the game and will continue it whenever I can find the spare time to do it, but I always end up putting the game away and going back to normal. Feeling free to game or not to game if I choose is absolutely necessary. Feeling like I had to get my gaming in during "permissable hours" made it feel impossible to stop. Freedom, on the other hand, seems to dull the desire a lot. If I can play my games anytime I want, I don't feel the need to do it right now. I can always do it some other time. And some other time normally never comes and I'm okay with that because I've got other things I'd rather do anyway.

Someday, after your gamer's addiction is broken, he'll realize how he's treating you right now. You'll have to wait until then for justice. First you need to show mercy, and help your gamer overcome his addiction. You can't do it for him, but you can help him. Remember to lure him away from it with pleasant things. Let the decision not to game be his. He will respect you for it. He will feel freedom instead of persecution. He will have a better chance at letting go of the addiction.

Good luck to you. Remember to be patient and loving. God bless.

[Keeping tabs on kids' computer use]

I like your user name, "xforeverxmetalx"

Rock on

[The Kolob Theorem: A Mormon's View of God's Starry Universe]

Thank you Hemi.

I hope any non members who happen upon this thread get the impression that most of us are like you. And I'm not just saying that because you were complimentary just now.

I've seen plenty of your posts and they always reflect well on the Church and yourself as an individual.

[The Kolob Theorem: A Mormon's View of God's Starry Universe]

God bless you all, including the ones who are inclined to bash other people and their ideas. You too are children of God.

But then, so are the people you ridicule. You would do yourselves a tremendous service to ponder about how He feels when you belittle deride His own children. Allowing one's self to be wrong once in a while is an opportunity for growth. It's really not that bad an idea to be careful about how we speak about the children of God almighty. No sense in offending him by mistreating His children.

If, however, people still feel the need to be hateful to each other in these forums, consider this my appeal to the website administrators to step in and do something about it. If we want to watch people treat each other the way satan wants us to treat them, we can always go to a political website, and witness venom to our hearts' content.

I think it would be really neat if all us Latter Day Saints either started acting the part, or increased whatever efforts we're already making. There's nothing non-doctrinal about being nice to people and behaving the way we all know we're supposed to.

As for the legitimacy of this book and the right of its author to be treated the way we should all treat everyone (in a Christ-like manner), I'm not asking anyone to believe anything they're not comfortable with, but I sure would appreciate not being told that because I try to understand things that aren't taught in Primary I must be chasing after false doctrine.

"We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."

Joseph Smith knew all kinds of things he never taught, because the people weren't ready. Part of being ready means having an open mind. I do not apologize for having an open mind. If a General Authority ever comes out and says this book is inaccurate, I'll accept that cheerfully, and will comply. But until and unless that happens, there is absolutely no reason why I can't believe it. Every true thing is crazy talk to someone. Ask any convert how their relatives feel about the Gospel doctrines that we rightfully consider beyond reproach. Disbelief proves nothing but its own existence.

If someone gets prideful, and assumes that they know something the General Authorities don't, yes, that is a problem. And let's remember that just because they don't teach something doesn't mean they don't know it. They teach what they're led by God to teach, which is probably only what we're ready to hear. Joseph Smith knew about things that he didn't teach, because he knew the people just weren't ready for some of it. And some of the things he did teach caused people to get offended and leave the Church anyway. According to Brigham Young and others, Joseph Smith delayed teaching plural marriage until after an angel appeared to him with a sword pointed at him, commanding him to delay it no longer.

I do not claim the Kolob Theorem is Gospel. It is, as the author clearly states A THEOREM. It is an attempt to explain something that has not been explained to us yet. It happens to make sense to some people. It is one man's effort to understand and explain something that has no other explanation, at least beyond difficult metaphors. If it doesn't make sense to some, does that require vilifying the author and those who agree with him? Where is it written in the scripture that persecution is okay, as long as you believe your opinion is correct?

If we can't allow each other, within the Church, to explore the mysteries of the universe, especially when we feel that they have an impact on our lives and the lives of our loved ones, what kind of people are we? I'm not talking about ideas that contradict established Gospel. False doctrine is not acceptable. But nothing in this book goes against established doctrine of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Sure, it may be hard to believe. It may even sound a little crazy. But that's not enough to make it false doctrine. There are many strange and unimaginable realities waiting on the other side of the veil. Again, if we can't refrain from deriding each other, within the Church, how can we call ourselves Latter Day Saints? If we are not one, we are not the Lord's. If we are going to be fit for Zion, we have to rise above silly bickering and arguing, ESPECIALLY among each other.

If I've offended anyone, it was not intentional. I don't feel I've said anything wrong or insulting. But I do apologize if I've offended anyone. I don't have to be perfect to be right. I don't have to be without fault to be a beloved child of God. And if I am wrong, it will be made known to me in due time. Until then, there is no need to condemn my beliefs. They've served me well so far, having gotten me into the true Church. I believe in nothing that has ever been condemned as false doctrine by the Gospel or the Prophets. My conscience is clear.

God bless you all.

[Sealing Cancellation Request]

I was sealed in the temple 20 years ago about four years after we were sealed there were lots of misunderstandings and we separated and divorced. He said he didn't want the divorce but he signed all the papers and never showed up in court to contest anything. He remarried, civially the same year our divorce was final. I remarried 8 years later to a non member. My marriage is ending because I decided to go back to church after being in active for the last 17+ years and my husband doesn't want to be married to some one in the LDS Church. now my ex has re-surfaced in my life. He says he is very unhappy in his marriage and that he has never stopped loving me and since my marriage is ending he wants to get back together when both of our divorces are final. In the last 17 years my ex has become very inactive he smokes and drinks and doesn't attend church. He and I never had children and we both have children from our current marriages. His wife is not intersted in the church either and is in fact very anti-mormon. So what do I do? Do I try to keep my civil marriage from ending or do I let it end and then go back to the spouse I was sealed to? The reason my ex and I got in contact is because I've been thinking about applying for a cancellation of our sealing if and when I want to be sealed to someone else. Or do I let my marriage end and not go back to my spouse but hold out for someone who honors his priesthood and obeys God's commandments. I've tried to find answers and I've prayed about it numerous times, but either I haven't gotten an answer yet or I haven't realized what the answer is. I'm not sure what the church views are on this issue. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!

Hey there Kestrel

I think the most important thing to remember when making your decision is that the heart and the head don't always agree in situations like this, and since that will probably make following the Spirit a little more challenging, extra care should be taken.

It sounds like in your current marriage, your husband is making this decision for both of you; whether or not to end the marriage. If he files papers, there's not really a lot you have to decide. Of course the correct thing for him to do would be to not file, fix his inappropriate attitude toward your and your daughter's participation in the Church, and accept the Gospel himself. But it doesn't sound like that's what will happen, and there's only so much you can do about that.

I firmly believe that we shouldn't worry about anything we cannot change or control (to be clear, that's "cannot", as opposed to "will not"). To me, that is the defining characteristic of something that is someone else's responsibility, and for which they and not I will be held accountable. I encourage you to keep your focus on what you can change, and it sounds like in that department you're doing great. You and your daughter both.

As for your ex husband, it doesn't sound like he's much of an improvement to your situation. Perhaps you feel you get a lot more respect from him and are treated better, but you should probably remember that if you're not willing to leave the Church for your current husband (and you absolutely shouldn't), it may not be wise to get back with your ex husband if he is inactive. You should probably ask yourself what the chances are that your ex husband will return to the Church. Regardless, I'd encourage you to make it clear to him that the man in your future will be an active member of the Church, and that you and your daughter require that kind of support from a responsible Priesthood holder in the home.

This is really a decision that only you can make, and you and your daughter will be the ones to live with the results, good or bad. I do feel that the Lord will bless people like you who are willing to choose the Church and the Gospel over family, in the unfortunate cases where it comes to that due to the decisions that other people make. God should always come first, period. Looks like you get that.

I guess the best advice anyone can give you is don't let you heart write a check that in the future you won't be able to cash without unreasonable difficulty. Marriage is a matter of the heart, no getting around that. And that's the way it should be. Just don't let your heart talk you into boarding the Titanic.

[Sealing Cancellation Request]

Chet, I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. If you look at Maya's post, the post right before hers is a quote from Margin of Error in which he discusses someone he knows that was married to a man, divorced him, met another and married, then found out her 1st husband was manic. Maya was responding to that post. To me, it is apparent that is what she's talking about since no one has said anything about the OP being manic.

This has already been brought to my attention and I already acknowledged it.

[Sealing Cancellation Request]

Perhaps even compromising the sanctity of The Man and his Helpmeet's roles as well!

I make no claim to be the brightest light bulb in the chandelier, so could you explain what you mean by that to me?

[Sealing Cancellation Request]

I think Maya was referring to a woman whose experience I shared. She divorced her husband, remarried, and the subsequently found out her first husband was manic depressant. It was the mental illness that was likely the culprit of a lot of their marital problems. You can read the whole post here.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/23225-sealing-cancellation-request-5.html#post389192

I don’t think Maya was referring to the woman in the original post. Correct me if I’m wrong, Maya.

Ah.....

That's different. Good point.

In that case, I apologize to Maya.

[Sealing Cancellation Request]

Chet, as one that has felt gender bias here at times, I didn't see that as one of them. Perhaps my perspective is different because I understand what it is like to live with someone that has mental illness - esp undiagnosed mental illness. Even if you DO know what is driving the behavior, it can be more difficult to put up with than most people will ever understand in this life. And when it is undiagnosed/unknown, it is incredibly difficult. I dare say there are very few that are able, or to be expected, to be fully faithful under such circumstances.

To expect a woman or man, to not be tempted to leave a marriage when their basic needs are not being met is unreasonable IMO. We are faliable mortals. We all have our limits to what we can deal with. Bottom line, I didn't see Maya's post as gender biased, simply a comment on a specific situation.

I know a little something about living with someone who has a mental illness as well, but I think my point may have not been made very well.

I don't recall seeing anything in this thread about RealDeseret having a mental illness until now. Let me know if it's in here and I just forgot about it or missed it, but it sounds A LOT to me like Maya was just throwing the accusation at him.

And let me just state here and now, with all due respect to whomever it concerns, that I think that when a person says something unfairly critical, mean, etc. about someone who is the victim in a situation like this, it is simply unacceptable behavior for a human being, let along a Latter Day Saint.

I know there are people out there who like to blame the victim, and I think it's despicable. If we are going to take it upon ourselves to pass judgment, can we at least direct it toward the antagonist?

Or perhaps Maya genuinely feels that RealDeseret has antagonized his ex-wife into leaving him and finding someone else (and not necessarily in that order). Perhaps she feels RealDeseret's ex-wife is justified for what she did prior to her alleged repentance and desire to go to the Temple to be sealed to the man for whom she left her husband.

My concern about gender bias comes from seeing someone with what appears to be a feminine user name blaming RealDeseret for his wife leaving him for another man, on the basis of an allegation of of mental illness, (for which I have yet to see any foundation).

If I'm missing something here, please connect the dots. So far, it just looks to me like a woman is fabricating a charge of mental illness against a man she doesn't know, to excuse his ex-wife (whom she also doesn't know) in leaving him for another man.

As I said before, none of us know the whole story, but if we're going to go by what is revealed in this thread so far, everything I've read indicates that RealDeseret had a wife who left him for another man and now wants to be sealed to that man in the Temple, and RealDeseret is clinging to the hope that if he refuses to give his consent he will be able to remain sealed to his ex-wife in the Celestial Kingdom, contrary to her present wishes. I think we can all agree that won't happen.

I missed the part where it's his fault, or where he said anything about having any form of mental illness. It appears to me that he's being charged with it out of thin air, and pardon my saying so, but that just sounds sexist to me. And I'd be saying the same thing if the tables were turned.

RealDeseret deserves compassion, support, and encouragement to let go. He does not deserve ridicule and blame.

I apologize if I've hurt anyone's feelings with what I've said, but I don't have much patience for perceived sexism. Being a man doesn't make anyone less of a child of God, but occasionally I get the impression that some people in the Church would disagree, and it makes me very glad that I already have a testimony.

[Sealing Cancellation Request]

I dont think she can be accused of doing wrong, as she did not know he was manic.

What?????

Leaving him for another man isn't wrongdoing?

I thought Vort was exaggerating about gender bias on this site, but I'm beginning to believe he wasn't.

[Sealing Cancellation Request]

I don't understand why you would fight the cancellation? Just because you want revenge? My understanding is that your wife would not be held to be with you in eternity if she didn't want to anyway... so why continue the charade on earth?

Revenge? Sounds like quite an assumption to me.

The tone I inferred from RealDeseret's posts on this (and I also infer that others have as well), is that he still loves her and doesn't want to lose her, at least not more than he already has. He can't control what's already happened, but he still has the option to give his consent to having their sealing dissolved or not to. I perceive that he's holding on because he still loves her and wants her back if at all possible. We all can see it's not possible, but when you're in a lot of pain and you're desperate, you'll hold on to any hope you have, no matter how slim.

And yes, I think most of us believe that if she doesn't want to remain sealed to him, Heavenly Father will not force it, even if she's at fault and he's done nothing wrong. But maybe RealDeseret doesn't know/understand/believe this, and thinks that by holding on, he can remain sealed to her after their judgment day too.

Sounds to me like the man is in a lot of pain that isn't going away with time. Rather than browbeating him, I'd encourage some sympathy and compassion. This could happen to anyone of us. How would we want to be treated?

Let's just share with RealDeseret our belief that his ex-wife will not be compelled to remain sealed to him in the Celestial Kingdom, assuming they both make it there, of course, and that a loving Heavenly Father will eventually provide for RealDeseret a loving spouse who will bless him with all the affection and companionship that we all deserve. Let's give him hope that even though it feels like he's paying the price for her mistakes and she's getting the happiness he deserves, he will eventually be better off than he ever was before.

Let's see how supportive we can be, and save the browbeating for the Jerry Springer show or the political internet forums.

[The Kolob Theorem: A Mormon's View of God's Starry Universe]

I really love the way the gospel makes sense. What it really is - is man's search for truth. Once the truth is found (things as they really were, are and will be) then happiness is the result if we implement the truth for good in our lives. The trickle down effect of our lives being in sync with nature is incredible as generations can be affected by just one centered person. Just took at a great great grandparent that joined the church and see the generations that followed and were blessed by that one person's decision.

Probably the single most eloquent statement on the Gospel that I've ever heard, bar none.

[Kissing on Temple Square? Everybody?]

Showing the missteps and in-poor-taste activities of "the other side" doesn't automatically make us right and them wrong. That's only an emotional argument.

To a point I would agree, but when you see people organizing nationwide and this is how they're behaving, I think common sense dictates that you be more vigilant than you were before when they trespass or appear to be trying to start trouble.

Something's coming. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next year. But this is no time to fall asleep at the wheel.

Most of these people are probably just expressing themselves poorly. Some of them are inadvertently giving us a warning.

[Polygamy is affecting my testimony]

Now I'm looking for the laugh button. Not laughing at anyone, mind you.

I haven't got an opinion either way.

[Polygamy is affecting my testimony]

The practice of polygamy nearly destroyed the Church. It is still a major PR problem for the Church. In testimony before Congress, Elder Jeffery R. Holland said, that marriage should be between one man and one woman. If only this had been the policy all along the Church would never have been associated with polygamy.

We are still having PR repercussions with the Priesthood Ban. If President McKay has followed up on his discussion with Sterling McMurrin and told the audience in General Conference that the ban was not doctrinal back in 1954, we would have been lauded as forward thinking. Church membership world wide would have been much larger. We might even have better music in our hymn books

:)

I don't know about you, but when I sing "We Thank Thee O God for a Prophet", I mean it.

[Polygamy is affecting my testimony]

If I could be half the man Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were, I think I'd probably have my calling and election made sure.

I just realized that might sound a bit exclusionary. Let me add this:

If I were a woman, I'd say instead that If I could be half the woman that Eliza R. Snow or Vilate Kimball were, I think I'd probably have my calling and election made sure.

:)

[Polygamy is affecting my testimony]

Well, by then the other leaders were invested in the practice of polygamy, too.

BTW, I think blacks not having the priesthood was not God's idea, either.

Our church is so conservative we tend not to question what previous leaders have said. BY decided blacks wouldn't have the priesthood, and it was not seriously questioned by his successors until the 1960s. When Pres. Kimball so persistently asked the question of the Lord in the 1970s, because it bothered him (SWK), the Lord revealed to him to give blacks the priesthood (just as JS had done in his time).

The Lord doesn't appear to shove things down our throat very often. He seems, rather, to work with us at our own pace.

I, for one, am inclined not to imagine that I know better than the Prophets. When I hear of something that happened in Church History that sounds wrong or strange, I dig deeper and I always find an explanation that makes sense of it.

But even if I didn't, I have a testimony which is stronger than any misunderstanding or misconception that results from mortal observations or short sighted interpretations in books. When the Holy Spirit says the Church is true, it doesn't matter if someone thinks Joseph Smith was a philanderer, or that William Law's or Warren Parrish's hypocritical allegations were true. I know better, courtesy of the Holy Spirit.

If I could be half the man Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were, I think I'd probably have my calling and election made sure.

[Polygamy is affecting my testimony]

Am I the only one who thinks these acronyms are stupid?

Looking that way.

[Polygamy is affecting my testimony]

Your statements are pretty damning HEP, and in my opinion, that would mean that the church was not led by revelation from God but by men.

Not only damning, but insulting. Perhaps not intentionally so, but HEP needs to understand that his accusations are offensive to most members of the Church.

[Kissing on Temple Square? Everybody?]

Frankly, the "love it or leave it" attitude is stupid and simplistic.

HEP

How profoundly Christ like of you.

My opinion does not require your validation, just so you know. It is an opinion, and nothing more, and I never claimed it was anything more.

But your criticism of it is worth nothing more than my own opinion.

And my opinion stands:

It is wrong to move into a community and disrespect its prevailing culture. It is wrong to move into a community and insist that the entire community's prevailing culture adapt to your own whims, rather than the individual adapting to it. If I moved to Rome, I would not start taking shots at the Catholic Church and harassing its members.

It is also wrong, if one finds himself or herself born into a community with a prevailing culture, to attack it and demand that it change to suit that individual, should that individual fail to appreciate their own community's beauty. The individual should adapt to the community, not vice versa.

And no, I did not suggest that a line from Star Trek is the law of the land. But I see no problem with citing wisdom wherever I find it. And unfortunately, the law of the land is becoming more and more devoid of wisdom.

I have an opinion, and it is nothing more than an opinion. Same with your criticism of it. If you disagree, that's your right, but dismissing it as summarily as you have doesn't change anyone's mind.

[Kissing on Temple Square? Everybody?]

Hey, welcome to America where we have freedom of speech. That includes speech we find offensive. If they refused to leave LDS property and were charged with trespassing, that's one thing, and the Church is within its rights to do something about it. However, I have a hard time feeling sorry for the Church because these people were "in your face," confrontational, or disrespectful. They'd be wise not to do exercise their freedom of speech on Church property in the future, but I can certainly understand why they want to make a statement. This is not a political issue the Church should have gotten involved in, IMO.

Peace,

HEP

Aaron, Aimee & Adelaide: How much longer must we endure?

Give that a read, won't you?

When you're done, THEN let's talk about the Church's guilt in all this, if indeed there is any. And maybe THEN we can discuss just how members of the Church viewed their involvement in the support for prop 8. Maybe THEN we can discuss their rights as citizens to influence the outcome of elections in their community, using nothing more than their own constitutionally provided, civil rights. Maybe after that we can discuss just how many prop 8 opponents sought civil dialogue and understanding over this issue, rather than vandalizing Church property, or stalking private citizens for their civic involvement.

Read that whole blog first. Then tell me the Church was wrong.

And let's establish something right here, right now. Do you or do you not accept the doctrine that the General Authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are duly authorized representatives of Jesus Christ? If you don't accept the doctrine, do you at least respect it, as our non member friends (like prisonchaplain, for example) do?

I say our good friend prisonchaplain is right on this issue, as he normally is.