SuperChris

Won't go on too long as it's late and my wife is wanting to use the computer, so I'll bring up 3 points. The first point is that there isn't a whole lot of widely accepted Biblical archaeology, despite quite a lot of people working on it. Non-LDS Book of Mormon archaeology is going to be very difficult to find. I honestly recommend reading the stuff at FAIR. The second point is that for Lehi's family's journey through the old world, before setting sail for the promised land, is actually very well plotted out. You can research this yourself, and I'd appreciate if someone could post some of the references. If not I'll go look for them when it's not midnight. And the third point, not Book of Mormon related but still related to the writings of Joseph Smith, is the Book of Moses. While I do not usually consider Wikipedia a reliable place to look up any information about the church, this paragraph about the Book of Moses caught my attention.

I, personally, found that *helping* my faith when I was gaining a testimony. Later in his life, it's not hard to imagine that, as far as the world is concerned anyway, he had every reason to throw Joseph Smith under a bus. As I recall hearing, he was offered quite a bit of money on more than one occasion to say that he never saw an angel or the golden plates, and that Smith was making everything up.And instead, to his dying day he still said that he, along with Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, saw an angel, saw the plates, and when he died he ordered his testimony of the Book of Mormon to be put on his tombstone.

If I may posit some speculation, and it is speculation only - but I think it is likely, through the course of time, that every person who has been excommunicated will eventually (and posthumously, unless they repent in this life) have it reversed. The main reason that Lee, in particular, has had it happen already is because his descendents had been petitioning for it. The reason I speculate this is because everything I've ever heard suggests that only a very, very few will reach outer darkness, and if you don't end up there then you'll end up going to one of the three kingdoms. And for even the telestial kingdom, you've got to have your temple work done. The main purpose of excommunication to encourage repentance in this life, and it isn't intended to represent a condemnation to outer darkness. Basically what the reinstatement does, according to my understanding, is that it means that his temple work is again considered 'done', as it will eventually, in God's perfect fairness, be done for everyone who has ever lived - even those who do end up in outer darkness.

Further, it seems unlikely that he actually committed the unforgivable sin. I mean it sucks making an argument in defense of the man commonly regarded as the common denominator of all evil, the simple fact is that a) we're not the ones who will judge his eternal fate, and b) the requirements for outer darkness are very specific, and as far as we know he didn't meet them. To the best of my knowledge, the official positions on it are that very, very few people will end up there, and that the only person in the history of the world that the church has specifically stated will end up there is Cain - anybody else is just speculation. And the thread has now satisfied Godwin's Law.

You are probably best off only telling him if marriage looks like a probability, but before he asks. And if it does look like like a probability, then absolutely, tell him. As others have said, if you marry him then he will inevitably find out, eventually. It's best to be honest up front. It will hurt him. That is unavoidable. There is the very real possibility that it will never stop hurting. And believe it or not, that's okay. Serious sins cause grief, even after they have been forgiven. I would only fault him for it if he decides to use it as ammunition to hurt you. As a pair of examples on opposite sides of the spectrum, I know one woman whose first husband always made it clear that he viewed her as 'used meat' (and she didn't even commit any sin - rather, she was abused). The other example is my own; I do speak from experience. It hurts. Occasionally it hurts a lot. But whatever. So I smile at her, and do everything I can to support her emotionally. I would never dream of using it to try and "win" an argument, and in fact the only time her past has even been so much as mentioned in our conversations after two years of marriage was when we were discussing how we wanted to deal with sex-ed for our future kids and she talked about things she wishes her parents had done. The major points I'm trying to get at is that, first, if it's somebody you're going to marry, then he (and he alone) needs to know. Second, the possibilities that he'll be hurt by the revelation and the possibility that he might still be a good guy are not mutually exclusive.

I can understand, even back when I was agnostic I still kept nearly all the church standards and therefore had significant difficulty finding someone I was willing to date. Getting married is important, yes. However, if you keep yourself worthy and for whatever reason don't get married in this life, you will still be afforded the opportunity one day.

Necromancy makes for old, zombie threads. Regardless, after reading the thread, I am interested in if the promising improvement SomeWife reported has continued, and if things are much better than they were.

I have rather different advice than everyone else here: tell him. As soon as possible, and hope she hasn't ruined his chance of honestly leaving to serve a mission. Simply having her in his life jeapordizes that chance. (Yes, it takes two to tango so to speak, but the girl you seem to be describing would in all likelihood be the instigator.) If I am following her rather convoluted and overlapping relationship history correctly, has already ruined one marriage, then cheated on that guy with you for a while, then cheated on you with her current boyfriend (just dating counts, if she put you under the impression that you were 'in a relationship'), and then cheated on him with you even though she is ostensibly his girlfriend (slept with you while he was out of town, if I am understanding your explanation correctly). If this was a part of her past she was trying to change that would be one thing, but the fact is this girl is a wrecking ball and the kid she's dating needs to be warned about her continuing behavior. I disagree that it is unlikely that she'll wait for this guy to return from his mission; rather, I would say that it's a foregone conclusion. I'd honestly be surprised if she even waits for him to leave. As was said, she does not deserve to have you chase her the rest of her life revealing her sordid past to anyone with whom she gets serious. Although her sexual history is the business of anyone she considers marrying - amongst other things, it's part of a necessary honesty with each other - it is a general rule that it's her job to share it, since it is partially an honesty issue. And it's not worth your time or effort to keep track of her and what she's doing in her relationships. However, this specific case is one where it is extremely unlikely she'll be honest with him, and she will jeapordize his ability to serve an honest mission. Much like I'd warn a friend if I happened to learn a girl he was dating had a past like this, the guy she's dating should be warned. Do not be afraid of seeming like an upset ex-boyfriend. If she has not slept with him, and you tell him, and then he subsequently does, then he can not say that nobody warned him. I would also reccommend following the advice of taking care of yourself - get tested for STDs (given the behavior you've described, who knows who else she slept with while you were with her), and talk to your bishop.

As for being too 'old', it just depends on whose opinion you seek. I didn't get married until I was 27, and I am friends with an LDS girl in that area who is 30 and never married. Let me say this: don't worry about it. One of the worst things you can do is to get married for the sake of being married.

Don't know about whether alcohol burns off in most instances of cooking, although if you cook it over a fire (say, grilling) it will. And it's true, most things have trace amounts of alcohol in them. Even milk has a measurable, if insignificant amount. I don't think it's worth worrying about if it's less than 1 proof.

When this happened to me, I was 12. Honestly, I think you have an advantage for being older - regardless, this will probably always rank among the top five or so hardest things you'll hear in your life. I can't offer any advice on how to get through it - honestly, the period is a blur to me in my memory, and almost everything from before it is pretty much gone. But I can offer advice on how not to repeat their mistakes. Find out, from both of your parents, their side of the story as to why they're getting divorced. Then, when you find someone that you're seriously contemplating getting married to, discuss these problems with her, and determine how the two of you can head them off before they become problems in your marriage. I have done this with my girlfriend and we have agreed on how not to repeat my parents' mistakes if we get married, so that we can instead focus on finding new and creative ways to screw up.

Troll. Not sure if that's the best explanation as to what a troll is, but the only other examples I can think of will put you face to face with them. I can assure you that I am not a troll, and I'm actually not sure what I've said that could be considered trolling. Anyhow, I will see if the library has a copy of the Peacegiver, and if they do I don't think it will take long to read.

'Causing' may have been the wrong word, still cleaning up the debris of the issues he caused may be better. The tragic story with him is that he was introduced to drugs on his mission, by his companion. He finished rehab a week or two ago, and appears to be clean (ok, his new addiction is World of Warcraft, which is still bad, but not as bad as before). Their hands are still full because he hasn't yet learned to re-integrate with society. This seems likely that it *will* change, it's just that it also makes getting a private moment alone with her parents difficult.

Ok, it may be 2 am, but I at least don't have to work tomorrow, so I've got some time. I don't think I'll touch on every point that's been made, but I'll try to cover the ones that strike me with a specific response. I've always felt that changing your religion for a girl is a pretty dumb thing to do too. I was not looking at dating girls in the church as an easy way to find a virgin. I simply had been getting invited to these activities for over a year, and decided to finally go to one. I was actually expecting that I wouldn't meet anyone even particularly interesting, much less someone who would become the most serious girlfriend of my life. I just figured that I had nothing better to do that night, and if nothing else I'd get some free pizza out of it.As for what I am right now - I'm kind of in between right now. I have a very reason oriented way of thinking, and for me even seeing is not always believing, so faith is a very difficult thing for me to do. That being said, I have for a long time wanted to believe, it's just that for me wanting to believe does not equal actually believing. In November I'd finally seen enough prayers answered that I finally said, I'm going to give believing a shot. Before December, I didn't think anyone around me had been. Since then, quite a few have mentioned that it's happened to them. I'm genuinely horrified - I've always considered it the worst crime one person can commit against another.Like I said, she was almost raped, although getting that close still did it's damage - she has had a few flashbacks in the last few weeks that I've been helping her through, since it's the same time of year that it happened and it doesn't help that I drive a similar car to the one it happened in. But I want to let you know that she went to the police that night, and then went straight into counselling. When she gave him the 'It's over for good' in December, he asked if they could be just friends, and she obliged. I don't have a big problem with this - I'm still good friends with an ex-girlfriend of mine, and I do remember thinking at her wedding a year and a half ago, "If I hadn't been such a bonehead, who knows? Maybe it would be me up there."I have suggested to her that I should become friends with him, since I don't think my opinion on him can be neutral - either I like him or resent him, and since it is a choice, the former seems like a much more pleasant option. That being said, I'm not thinking their friendship will last very long. After hearing him talk on the night I met him, it seems to me that he's refusing to move on with his life - to me, this was confirmed when she said that he wasn't letting her set him up on any blind dates. She also kind of gets the sense that he's hoping things will eventually get fixed in his favor, and she has cancelled the last couple times they had planned to get together (besides the time where she was introducing him to me) because she felt very uncomfortable about it. I realize that it seems cruel to him, but I do hope that these cancellations, and seeing the two of us together when he is there, will hurt enough that he'll let it end and finally move on. As for the counselling, I've made it absolutely clear that if we do, in fact, decide to get married, I'm going to insist on pre-marital counselling. Really, I think that's a smart thing for any couple to do. I think everybody receives a rude awakening about just how difficult things can get, especially after they're married, no matter how well they prepare and try to brace for it. It's just that from the position I'm standing at now, I have no idea what could possibly get us into a real fight. And I must point out, that I said "...only issue we have in our relationship," and not "...only issue we have had in our relationship." I just didn't feel it was terribly important to include the other significant issue we have had in the post since now it's resolved and gone. I will say that making those expectations so rigid is the reason, a couple of times, that I was able to say, "This situation is spiralling out of control, it is time to stop." My expectations may have been rigid, but I expected no less of myself. But, after all, that which does not bend, breaks most easily. As I mentioned above, these expectations shattered the moment that she in particular told me. It was a very painful experience. But I can assure you that in the time since, it has been replaced with, (to use my exact words to her) "I love you enough to be able to stop, because I don't want you to feel any more regret."And again, no, I don't think your post was too harsh. I just want to say again that I'm not asking if I should break up with her over this. That does indeed strike me as cruel. I'm not continuing the relationship just because that's the general feeling I get when I pray about it, I'm continuing it especially because that's the general feeling I get. I expressed in my last post that I am doing everything I can to try and make her feel better about herself, and part of that means bringing this up to her as little as I possibly can. I did, after all, title the thread "Learning to live with..." - I have every intention of getting past this. What I am asking is, what can I do to get past this that does not involve simply burying it? I've gotten some useful comments about this, and I'd always appreciate more. And if nothing else, venting is a whole lot more helpful than bottling it up, since there really isn't anybody I can talk to about this - of the people who DO know, her parents are tied up dealing with the serious issues her younger brother is causing, and I can't really talk to her bishop until after she does, since it is absolutely not my place to tell him about the last piece of her story. Again, I'd like to say I'm grateful for all the comments. I'm still overwhelmed by just how many have come in one day. And I just looked at the clock, and I spent two hours writing this post. I think I've covered everything I've meant to, for the moment. Thank you again!

Thank you, and I'm overwhelmed by the responses - I had typed up a continuance of my response in notepad at work so that I could paste that in there, but what I wrote is now grossly inadequate. I would love to answer everyone's replies point by point, but I am still at the moment constrained by time. tanuvasamama I think one of the most helpful answers, if for no other reason than having been there on the opposite side. I want to add that, aside from the irrational feeling of worthlessness I described, I don't take it personally. I've never once been angry at her about it, and it isn't some smouldering resentment. I make it a point not to bring the subject up because I know it will just hurt her more. Whenever it has come up, I've done my best to help ease her hurt. I bought her flowers the day after she told me to try and get her to feel better, and still do whenever I feel especially down about it. Whenever she's said that she doesn't feel like she is worth my sticking around, or called herself a sl*t, I've done nothing but try and convince her otherwise, and let her know that it hurts me when she thinks of herself that way. She's asked several times if I regret that I fell in love with her, and the answer I've always given is a sincere no, I don't regret it. I didn't mean to make it seem like the future of our relationship is going to be determined by the advice I get here. I'm not even contemplating leaving her over this. And I think I've got the forgiveness thing down - like I said, I've never once felt angry at her about it, I've done everything I can think of to make her feel better about herself, and I don't hang it over her head - I try not to even mention it. I'm just trying to get advice to get past my own hurts, or to at least vent rather than keeping it bottled up inside. If nothing else, I'd love it if there was some technique I could use to get rid of the image that, while arriving with less frequency than it did when I first found out, still shows up sometimes, of her with somebody else. I really do appreciate the answers, and I hope I'll be able to find time to reply more specifically to them.