aj4u
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Posts posted by aj4u
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I didn't say obedience is not important. I am saying trusting your works of obedience to supplement God's (Jesus') death for your sins and shed blood is to fall from God's grace completely, and that where the problem lies. You cannot ignore Paul, and you're not showing a Biblical understanding of James as related to being saved by God 's grace through our faith that works by love!!!! I am speaking truth here that must be understood or salvation is not possible! Thus saith the Lord!!!We our saved by our faith in Him AND our obedience to His commandments. The two go hand in hand and one is not complete without the other. (Matthew 19:16-21, James 2:14-17)
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My understanding of the Bible is this: Faith is the substance of things hoped for and evidence of things not seen.For most part yes. The key point, and where faith comes in, is we don't know how we are going to get paid. We just know its for our better good to follow God and his Commandments. We hope that means a reward in the next life. But each choice brings its own test of our faith. I like how it was said we show our Love to God. Thats pretty much it. Do we really love this being that we haven't seen. Do we trust Him 100%!
Without faith we cannot please God. Those that come to God must believe He is and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. We overcome the wicked one by our faith. Our faith is what saves us through God's grace. Trusting in anything other than this will cause us to fall from God's grace and be judged by our works only that is Satan's diabolical plan.
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It is not the first time I read parts of the BoM. I am just reading more than ever now. As you mentioned, "No one who has read the BoM the first time knows whether or not there was steel in the Americas 600 years ago. No one would know to ask that question." But form what you say, you knew it. Why did you fail to mention the anachronisms back when I brought up the subject in one of my threads that were closed? I am being given websites to answer the questions, but I am having to filter through lots of stuff that adds more questions. The name calling is not necessary and does not glorify God.You guys do realize he's a troll, yes?
No one who has read the BoM the first time knows whether or not there was steel in the Americas 600 years ago. No one would know to ask that question.
At least, not unless he has already talked to people who tell him there were none. If that's the case, he failed to mention it.
Elphaba
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Yes, thank you I am looking at all the information. there is quite a bit so it takes me time to answer I am getting many websites to view. So at this time, I have no comment. I need to look at the material closely. I don't have evidence that God created the worlds; yet I believe it! Who maketh thee my judge?did you ever read the link I provided for you in your last thread??/ I know your not very good about answering other peoples questions, but, I am curious.
If you had evidence as you call it...right in front of you...I bet you still would not believe it..
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I have plunged my myself into reading the BoM and find that it purports the rise and development of great civilizations. Places that were covered with buildings and people groups numerous as the sands of the ocean Mormon 1
In Nephi there is fine works of wood, iron, copper, and brass and even steel (I didn't know steel existed during does times) all manner of tools Jarom 1: 8 They spread over the face of the earth. There is also swords, cimeters, breastplates, arm shields head plates and many other such things that went along with these civilizations. Where can I find archeological and scientific proof of such places like there is proof for the Holy Bible of the places it mentions along with the artifacts?
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WE=true followers of Christ Jesus of the Holy Bible.It's no longer about battles, it's now about winning an entire war?! I don't understand, who (or what) is it you are trying to wage war against?
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It means to take in or drink of. It means making Jesus the center of your life. I mean letting Him be Lord of your life. It means being hid in Him and abiding in Him and Him in you. If these things are present, there is nothing else needed. A person can be in prison and never have an opportunity to be baptized from a physical perspective and He will be saved according to the Bible, but not according the BoM. Nephi says we are saved after all we can do. This strikes at the very heart of all Paul was for and against. Ephesians 2: 8, 9 For by grace are ye saved through faith and that is not of yourselves it is the gift of God NOT of works. This might sound redundant to you, but I don't see how you made it over that hump without being pushed. How can anyone earn or work for a gift? YOU Cannot. If we have to add anything to what Jesus has done to be saved other than our total faith in Him, we are fallen from God's grace and will be judged on whether we have been perfect in all our works. The silgthlest imperfection and we don't qualify for the smallest place in God's glory. I find that the Lord gently leads His sheep in the way they should go, but the devil pushes! I believe the devil wants to win this war by convincing believers that they have to earn or work for the gift of salvation or eternal life in Jesus.I think the best place to start is ask aj4u to tell us what he thinks it means to believe in Christ, then maybe you next?
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You're back AGAIN with the same rhetoric??!!
Don't you know when you're fighting a losing battle?I am not concerned about winning battles. I want to see Jesus get the reward of His suffering. It is the war that must be won! Jesus will be the victor and through Him, we are more than conquerors.
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Obviously, the thief on the cross wasn't baptized before being saved by Jesus. I am not saying it isn't important to baptize, but I am seeing a complicated salvation message in the BoM than there is in the Bible. The BoM says we must have perfect faith to be saved. What is that? It also says if we have faith we must have hope. This doesn't make sense to me. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. If you have the faith, your in period. The BoM is making it sound like we need to have things that I cannot define and I get confused trying to understand the plan of salvation from its verses whereas, the Bible is simple and clear cut to me. Can you understand me on this?aj4u, these are scriptures in the Bible that come a lot closer to saying baptism is necessary. Perhaps you pit this BoM scripture against those verses?
Also, there are verses in the BoM that look more like the one you quoted from the Bible.
However, this verse you quoted from the Bible does not prove baptism is not necessary. You need to quote where the Bible says it is not necessary in order to get a contradiction. It is your interpretation that the Bible does not teach baptism is necessary.
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BoM
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil (3Nephi 11)
11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins. (Moroni 8) The BoM emphasizes baptism as an essential work for salvation and several other things, but the Bible doesn't. It also emphasizes any one adding or taking away from the gospel which is a part of the salvation message comes from evil, the Bible essentially states the same through Paul about a different gospel message.
The Bible:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
If baptism is an essential work for salvation why hasn't that been emphasized in the Holy Bible. It is not even mentioned once as being necessary for salvation, but calling on the name of the Lord is and believing in you heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and by faith through grace we are saved. It seems that the BOM states removing or adding anything from the salvation message comes from evil, but also the Bible states the same. These seem to pit me one vs the other.
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I don't mind people trying to convert me. I never have and never will. I would like to be at a place in my life with God where I have no will of my own.Here's a thought: how about we don't try to convince you of anything and you don't try to convince us of anything? I do not appreciate people trying to convert me, just as I'm sure you don't appreciate people trying to convert you.
The thought you shared is your thought not the Lord's.
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Well, I am not sure what I see here. What bothers me is the BOM has hundreds or thousands of words from the KJV even some verbatim quotations to a significant length. Moroni 10 with 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 would be an example but not the only one. It appears Joseph Smith made use of the KJV Bible to go along with or supplement the mysterious revelation of the golden plates in question.Hello, it's a TRANSLATION! Or are you trying to claim that the prophets who wrote the Book of Mormon were writing in English?
Mormons will agree that Christ appeared on the American continent after His resurrection to preach to the Nephites right? The problem I have is He used the KJV or the language as recorded in that Bible.
What checks out with me is when Nephi came to America he brought copies of Hebrew Scriptures, which explains for quotations from the OT. The problem, however, I would like for you to explain is the miracle plates some how or another end up under the translation of the King James English without variation about a thousand years before the 1611 version was written and many quotes that follow the translation errors in that text.
This is one of many reasons I have trouble praying and asking God if this is true. It strains the limits of believability to the max for me, and I am honestly trying to understand why and how you can believe this. I can pray and ask God to show me how He sees this.
If it is true, God can explain this and show me that the BOM is true. But I will not blindly and naively believe what any prophet or prophets tell me until they check out with Scripture. I would be begging for deception in my life and I have had my fill. I would think you'd feel the same way.
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I'll see about the movie. Will the movie deal with this issue and how the original BOM was written in a KJV before the KJV came out in 1611.Howdy,
in the movie, "A Touch of Greatness", teacher Albert Cullum teaches Shakespeare to his second grade class. The children comprehend with surprising quickness.
Unfamiliar language variations can be understood with just a smidgen of extra concentration.
By the way, the movie is inspiring. I recommend renting the documentary at Netflix or a brick-and-mortar store.
Cheers,
Kawazu
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I meant it the way Brigham Young said it. So is it possible that Joseph Smith will say no and Jesus says yes about our eternal destiny?The question originally was asked in this way:
No we don't need his permission. He will be a judge but it will be Christ who is the final judge. In the explanation that Brigham Young gave it did not fully give the entire explanation. His quote appeared to make it as if Joseph Smith has the final say which he does not.
No Gospel Essential is not canonized scripture. It's a course of study.
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So now we're morons?
typo 
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I do what I say! I can Ask God how He sees these things written in the BOM. It is all I have the faith for. Are you really a LDS?That is the most arrogant and brainless statement I have ever heard!! "I can't ask God...???" Let's just put an end to this. You WILL NOT ASK because you DO NOT WANT TO ASK. If that is so then let's not waste our time!!.
I also serve a Living God and a God who is not just Omniscient and Omnipotent but also OmnipresentI am able to hear directly from Jesus for now.I worship a Living God. Him who never sleeps is never absent and is Omniscient. There is no question too hard, too complex, or too difficult for Him. I know that Jesus is the Christ, my Savior and Redeemer through personal revelation by the hand of God thru His Holy Spirit. I have read the scriptures, pondered, traveled and been a witness to things that most will never see. And after countless years of prayers, I have received a witness that the Word of the Lord is not silent, that he appoints prophets and reveals thru them His will. And from time to time, according to our faith and needs, He reveals line upon line, more of His wisdom and mind so we may gain a more perfect understanding and knowledge about His plan and will regarding His children..
What was wrong with the witnesses in the Bible? I accepted their witness. Why do I need another?We offer you, in the Book of Mormon, another witness that Jesus is the Christ, that not just in Jerusalem but also in distant lands His name was spoken of and salvation expected by His Atonement. I know, unequivocally, that this record is true as the Lord has testified to me so. You can, from today and until we meet again in His kingdom, deny this truth but you can not change it. We offer you this witness of Christ and challenge you to read it, pour upon the lines of this text in honesty and humility. After you had done that, the Lord challenges YOU to pray to Him, the Father, in the name of Christ about this work. and HE, THE LORD WILL ANSWER YOU. .
That goes both ways! Don't forget God's word is a double edged sword.Today you will decide if you will do so or not. Whatever your choice, you will be accountable to God for it to your blessing or your own condemnation.
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For the past few days and today at my dentist office. I have read quite a bit. I found out today my dentist is Mormon. He had a BOM on the self in his office. As I am reading in his office, there is a nagging voice in the back of my mind telling me why is the BOM written in the KJV?OK;)
Sounds good to me.
Read the Book of Mormon and do just that:)
If you think you can't manage it maybe just shoot for 150 pages.
Prayerfully by then you will desire to read the rest;)
Bro. Rudick
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Maybe your right I don't know. It seems like the stories keep changing with time. If your going to judge someone, at least tell them where they have lied and manipulated the facts. What you have accused me of is and as never been what I am about on here. God has me here for a reason. I am sincere about my relationsip with the Lord. Either you are suppose, to win me with God's help to Moronism or God is trying to deliever you from deception. If it is the latter, I have failed to reach you, but I have been obedient in delivering my soul to you. If it is the former, you have failed because you cannot identify or discern someone who sincerely Loves Jesus Christ and might be going about things the wrong way.No, you do not know the "story" and if the Book of Mormon is "story" then the bible is also a story for which you have no pertinent information, references or independent verification either. But you have taken it at face value.
The fact is that you have lied, manipulated the facts, ignored relevant information and continued a mute, circular reasoning argument that leads nowhere. You already made up your mind. We should just thank you and suggest you go on your merry way. I am sure you have other more important things to do with your life.
You can tell more about a person from what he says about others than what others say about him. Think about it, and think when you point your finger you have three fingers pointing back at you!!!
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Originally Posted by aj4u View Post
"Yes, I know the story behind the BOM and I have a copy!"
You see here where he is coming from.
Bro. Rudick
What is it you see?
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I can be sincere and pray and ask that God show me how He sees these things. Is that good enough? I can't ask Him if it is true because I believe differently base on How well it lines up with The Bible and from some of what I have seen and heard from those claiming to be Mormons.If you are sincere, as I was being a convert, by applying great faith in reading Moroni's request to ask GOD whether these things are true, I do believe HE will answer.
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No, I understand it better. I am growing. I am doing it without looking to man on this earth.Do you understand scripture the same way as you did 5 years ago?
My Bible says that Jesus started the work in me and He will finish it. I trusting Him and Him only with my soul. I will not allow myself to be captive of man's teaching without testing it first. Otherwise the firewall on my computer is down, and I am without virus protection in my spirit. Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith.For us personal growth is the reason we are here, whilst God is unchangeable the humans he gets involved with are not, the world is not the same as it was at creation it has evolved to where we are in 2009, not every culture is the same etc everyone becomes a Latter Day Saint at a different level or understanding.
So, how are you more perpared than me spiritually? What makes you think I am not growing spiritually just as fast as God wants?Want to know what we believe sure read the Book of Mormon, but also approach General Conference with prayer and a readiness to grow and be taught. Take notes decide where your family will be growing now.
Clarity? One day a great Mormon prophet shares a doctrine truth, and multiple decades latter it is obsolete. Is that what you call evolution of prophecy? I am sorry, I am being as objective as I know. I don't see what in the world your talking about. I have the Spirit and testimony of Jesus Christ and God is not showing me the voice of truth in what you share.We have complete consistency and clarity because we have President Monson, Joseph Smith taught what was right for his day, Abraham for his day there are strong truths in there and a lot for us to learn but its is President Monson that offers the clarity the saints today are ready to understand and need to guide us.
With the Bible I am an intrument rated pilot. I trust my instrument panel even if I feel I am off course. But without it, I am out as sea in a ship without a compass following my feeling and the feelings of others (prophets) for direction. That doesn't sound like anyway I want to travel.Rely only on the Bible and not personal revelation and modern prophets and you can only live the gospel to the standards set in an earlier day. Rely on Personal Revelation, General Conference and President Monson and you live the standards set for 2009, a time when many in the world are capable of a lot more than they were 2000 years ago. I use the current measure to read my scriptures with, attend the temple with, when doing that tremendous clarity is afforded to you, I would even suggest without the temple and General Conference you can't understand the Bible properly, and you will see more contradictions and confusion than exist in my mind.
I am not urgent to go in circles never moving forward. Are you? Wow, trumps Joseph Smith. I never thought I'd hear something like that.Which is why I do understand your urgency to go round in circles, because Christianity without evolution of prophecy as you call it does go round in circles never moving forward. With modern revelation both personal and prophetic it moves constantly forward, and with each prophet there is a major leap forward, I felt it when President Hunter took over, then President Hinckley and now President Monson with each one the understanding is more full. So for me General Conference trumps what even Joseph Smith said
-Charley
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I know from you. You believe the prophets that now speak to you from God. Therefore, the Mormons that went on before you did the same. If not, than I would like to hear your explanation. How do you know that those that go ahead of you won't say the say the same about the prophets you follow now? Where is the stability of a word from the Lord? Where do you draw the line? What do you have to judge if a word is from the Lord or not? How can one prevent themselves from being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine? It doesn't seem to me that LDS modern teaching is bringing clarity to me. I am getting more confused as I read the BOM and listen to what everyone is sharing. Know ye therefore, and understand that the Word of the Lord is forever established unchangeable in the heavens and the earth. BTW, that is not a quote from the Bible; it is my quote!They may have. Then again, they may not have. How do you know?
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Okay, as i mentioned, I 'll take your word for it, but I bet at the time of that teaching many believe it was straight from the mouth of God. Why would the teachings from the living prophets you follow today be any different than that of Brigham Young's yesterday?I don't take everything written in the Journal of Discourses as gospel doctrine. They aren't scripture and many times were the opinions of the Prophets at the time. That's where the quote is taken from.
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Is this the part about faith?
17] And now my beloved brethren, do you believe these things? Behold, I say unto you, yea, I know that ye believe them; and the way that I know that ye believe them is by the manifestation of the Spirit which is in me. And now because your faith is strong concerning that, yea, concerning the things which I have spoken, great is my joy.
[18] For as I said unto you from the beginning, that I had much desire that ye were not in the state of dilemma like your brethren, even so I have found that my desires have been gratified.
[19] For I perceive that ye are in the paths of righteousness; I perceive that ye are in the path which leads to the kingdom of God; yea, I perceive that ye are making his paths straight.
[20] I perceive that it has been made known unto you, by the testimony of his word, that he cannot walk in crooked paths; neither doth he vary from that which he hath said; neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left, or from that which is right to that which is wrong; therefore, his course is one eternal round.
Is this the part about faith you referred to?
[21] And he doth not dwell in unholy temples; neither can filthiness or anything which is unclean be received into the kingdom of God; therefore I say unto you the time shall come, yea, and it shall be at the last day, that he who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness.
[22] And now my beloved brethren, I have said these things unto you that I might awaken you to a sense of your duty to God, that ye may walk blameless before him, that ye may walk after the holy order of God, after which ye have been received.
[23] And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things; being diligent in keeping the commandments of God at all times; asking for whatsoever things ye stand in need, both spiritual and temporal; always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive.
[24] And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works.
[25] And may the Lord bless you, and keep your garments spotless, that ye may at last be brought to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the holy prophets who have been ever since the world began, having your garments spotless even as their garments are spotless, in the kingdom of heaven to go no more out.
[26] And now my beloved brethren, I have spoken these words unto you according to the Spirit which testifieth in me; and my soul doth exceedingly rejoice, because of the exceeding diligence and heed which ye have given unto my word.
[27] And now, may the peace of God rest upon you, and upon your houses and lands, and upon your flocks and herds, and all that you possess, your women and your children, according to your faith and good works, from this time forth and forever. And thus I have spoken. Amen.
Alma 8
[1] And now it came to pass that Alma returned from the land of Gideon, after having taught the people of Gideon many things which cannot be written, having established the order of the church, according as he had before done in the land of Zarahemla, yea, he returned to his own house at Zarahemla to rest himself from the labors which he had performed.
[2] And thus ended the ninth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi.
[3] And it came to pass in the commencement of the tenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi, that Alma departed from thence and took his journey over into the land of Melek, on the west of the river Sidon, on the west by the borders of the wilderness.
[4] And he began to teach the people in the land of Melek according to the holy order of God, by which he had been called; and he began to teach the people throughout all the land of Melek.
[5] And it came to pass that the people came to him throughout all the borders of the land which was by the wilderness side. And they were baptized throughout all the land;
[6] So that when he had finished his work at Melek he departed thence, and traveled three days' journey on the north of the land of Melek; and he came to a city which was called Ammonihah.
[7] Now it was the custom of the people of Nephi to call their lands, and their cities, and their villages, yea, even all their small villages, after the name of him who first possessed them; and thus it was with the land of Ammonihah.
[8] And it came to pass that when Alma had come to the city of Ammonihah he began to preach the word of God unto them.
[9] Now Satan had gotten great hold upon the hearts of the people of the city of Ammonihah; therefore they would not hearken unto the words of Alma.
[10] Nevertheless Alma labored much in the spirit, wrestling with God in mighty prayer, that he would pour out his Spirit upon the people who were in the city; that he would also grant that he might baptize them unto repentance.
[11] Nevertheless, they hardened their hearts, saying unto him: Behold, we know that thou art Alma; and we know that thou art high priest over the church which thou hast established in many parts of the land, according to your tradition; and we are not of thy church, and we do not believe in such foolish traditions.
[12] And now we know that because we are not of thy church we know that thou hast no power over us; and thou hast delivered up the judgment-seat unto Nephihah; therefore thou art not the chief judge over us.
[13] Now when the people had said this, and withstood all his words, and reviled him, and spit upon him, and caused that he should be cast out of their city, he departed thence and took his journey towards the city which was called Aaron.
[14] And it came to pass that while he was journeying thither, being weighed down with sorrow, wading through much tribulation and anguish of soul, because of the wickedness of the people who were in the city of Ammonihah, it came to pass while Alma was thus weighed down with sorrow, behold an angel of the Lord appeared unto him, saying:
[15] Blessed art thou, Alma; therefore, lift up thy head and rejoice, for thou hast great cause to rejoice; for thou hast been faithful in keeping the commandments of God from the time which thou receivedst thy first message from him. Behold, I am he that delivered it unto you.
[16] And behold, I am sent to command thee that thou return to the city of Ammonihah, and preach again unto the people of the city; yea, preach unto them. Yea, say unto them, except they repent the Lord God will destroy them.
[17] For behold, they do study at this time that they may destroy the liberty of thy people, (for thus saith the Lord) which is contrary to the statutes, and judgments, and commandments which he has given unto his people.
[18] Now it came to pass that after Alma had received his message from the angel of the Lord he returned speedily to the land of Ammonihah. And he entered the city by another way, yea, by the way which is on the south of the city of Ammonihah.
[19] And as he entered the city he was an hungered, and he said to a man: Will ye give to an humble servant of God something to eat?
[20] And the man said unto him: I am a Nephite, and I know that thou art a holy prophet of God, for thou art the man whom an angel said in a vision: Thou shalt receive. Therefore, go with me into my house and I will impart unto thee of my food; and I know that thou wilt be a blessing unto me and my house.
[21] And it came to pass that the man received him into his house; and the man was called Amulek; and he brought forth bread and meat and set before Alma.
[22] And it came to pass that Alma ate bread and was filled; and he blessed Amulek and his house, and he gave thanks unto God.
[23] And after he had eaten and was filled he said unto Amulek: I am Alma, and am the high priest over the church of God throughout the land.
[24] And behold, I have been called to preach the word of God among all this people, according to the spirit of revelation and prophecy; and I was in this land and they would not receive me, but they cast me out and I was about to set my back towards this land forever.
[25] But behold, I have been commanded that I should turn again and prophesy unto this people, yea, and to testify against them concerning their iniquities.
[26] And now, Amulek, because thou hast fed me and taken me in, thou art blessed; for I was an hungered, for I had fasted many days.
[27] And Alma tarried many days with Amulek before he began to preach unto the people.
[28] And it came to pass that the people did wax more gross in their iniquities.
[29] And the word came to Alma, saying: Go; and also say unto my servant Amulek, go forth and prophesy unto this people, saying -- Repent ye, for thus saith the Lord, except ye repent I will visit this people in mine anger; yea, and I will not turn my fierce anger away.
[30] And Alma went forth, and also Amulek, among the people, to declare the words of God unto them; and they were filled with the Holy Ghost.
[31] And they had power given unto them, insomuch that they could not be confined in dungeons; neither was it possible that any man could slay them; nevertheless they did not exercise their power until they were bound in bands and cast into prison. Now, this was done that the Lord might show forth his power in them.
Faith questions
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted · Edited by aj4u
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