Mason

Early Christians generally prayed standing with head slightly bowed. No idea if their eyes were closed. Does it matter? Probably not.

This is, I believe, a False dilemma. There was never a single, unified Church established by Jesus Christ in his lifetime, nor was there a single organic structure during the first few centuries AD. There is absolutely no evidence of such a theory, and in fact the evidence shows that there were multiple teachings and practices from the very beginning, suggesting diversity as we see today in Christianity. I would recommend the leading scholar in this field, Paul Bradshaw, to those who are interested.

We were discussing the Mormon theory of once a true prophet, always a true prophet. David Whitmer's address To All Believers IN Christ (LINK DELETED BY MODERATOR) offers numerous reasons why this theory is erroneous.

When it happens to you, you will know it. I'm afraid I cannot put it into words as of yet. I can go along with the "men of God" statement in most regards. Does that help? That's a brain teaser. :)

I'm glad we agree on this. I was not questioning the existence of God. I believe the evidence is in creation itself and needs no further explanation. The question on the Five books of Moses is a different matter altogether and cannot be solved by a simple matter of faith or humility. While I strongly disagree with the theory of "fear and trepidation," this is beside the point. Now that's what I'm talking about! I hope you don't think I was asking questions here. I have no problems with the unknown and unknowable. Nor do I need answers to every question under the Sun.

Weber State lost it's opener to Wyoming. However, to their credit, it was a close game.

True enough. If you get a copy of the Reed Smoot hearings, you'll read about a certain US Senator who directly accused the LDS Church of changing it's policy on polygamy because of US Law. JFS did not refute it. It was because of these hearings that the 2nd manifesto was issued in 1904, banning polygamy worldwide, not just in US territory.

Take a good look at the Ugaritic texts and I think you'll change your mind.

Ever heard of Reed Smoot? Not according to history.

We can prove that there were at minimum four authors of the Pentateuch (JEPD). Just that information alone shows us that if Moses did have a hand in writing it, his was by no means the only one.

Wow, talk about a loaded comment. Why be nice, why not just make the outlandish claim that those who question are anti-Christ? Being humble, albeit noble in and of itself, has nothing to do whatever with scientific proof of authorship of a given text. There may be those who feel better checking their brains in at the door, but I am not such a person. The glory of God is intelligence, not humble resignation.

Of course not. Nobody can.

I cannot do that.

Is this your attempt at being sarcastic? Or just a casual way to divert attention from the fact that you have no way of proving anything?

Christ comes to us.

Exceeding his divine mandate? Do we not have examples of fallen prophets in the Bible? Fallen Apostles? Disciples who go astray? Or maybe, just maybe, the answer to this riddle comes from David Whitmer.

Maxel, Perhaps you should re-read my last post. I was pointing out the false dilemna of believing everything Smith claimed from God was automatically from God because the BoM is true. You only underscored my point, not contradicted it.

This is really terrible logic. Even if the Book of Mormon was God's work, why should anyone believe that God placed his stamp of approval on EVERYTHING Joseph Smith did for the rest of his life?

I am a Catholic Christian. I believe most of the so-called prophets of the Old Testament were raving lunatics who spent too much time in the desert heat. That said, I don't believe these prophets had much to do with the actual texts of the Old Testament. I accept divine guidance. While I don't believe it comes in the form of a burning bosom, I do accept that God can and does guide His children home. Not that following the Old Testament is wrong per se (my polite qualifier is to italicize) , but I don't believe it will lead you to a closer life in Christ.

You have an obligation to believe it because you made that choice. I do not believe the BoM is historically true (though some truths are in there) nor the rest of LDS scripture. I believe the Old Testament is nothing but borrowed pagan texts redacted into Jewish lore to make them appear more important than they are. The New Testament is perhaps the only reliable Christian "scripture" in existence. I also dig some NT deutrocanon (apocrypha) such as Barnabas, along with a few heterodox texts like the Gospel of Thomas. However, my faith does not hinge on the veracity of these texts. I will take whatever truth is in them and add it to my own knowledge. I believe Brigham Young stated that.

I do understand the LDS idea of prophets and how they relate to everyone else. I don't believe it personally, but I know where you are coming from. That last post of mine is my own belief, not meant as an affront to your own. (And it was a borrowed quote from Thomas Paine btw.)

Technically speaking here folks, revelation in it's authentic definition is only revelation to the person who received it. It is hearsay to anyone else, and consequently we are not obligated to believe it.

Stay off the internet for 6 months. Seriously, don't use it at all. Have someone else check your eMail if you need it.

Might I remind you that the BoM, PoGP, and D&C were also written by a Man (or Men). They too have their inconsistencies and lunacies. Ben has suggested that only by the Holy Ghost can we find the truth of the matter. Now it's up for debate as to just how the Holy Ghost will testify. Burning of the bosom? Clarity of thought? Epiphany?

The only thing remaining to determine, is how does the Holy Ghost witness said truth? We will likely disagree on whether the burning in the bosom is actually the Holy Ghost, or something else.