Universeman

I have been doing a lot of skeptical thinking lately, I used to think that I was 100% certain of my testimony of the gospel but now I am far less certain of the basis for my testimony. Now don’t panic I have no intention of leaving the LDS faith I am simply questioning the strength of my testimony. I do not have any worthiness issues and I honor all of my temple covenants, I partake of the sacrament every week and have daily scripture study and I pray with my wife and so on. What I am questioning is how can I ever possibly distinguish between a witness of the spirit and my own emotions? In addition to this question I would also point out that of all the instances that I would consider a witness of the spirit, non of them are related in any way to the LDS faith, such as a witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Lastly is a witness of the truthfulness of the restored gospel by the Holy Ghost requisite to being a member in good standing. Let me clarify a bit what I mean by that, lets take the prophet Joseph Smith Jr. for example, a lot of people dismiss him out right as nothing more then a charlatan. I have never received a witness of the spirit that Joseph actually was a prophet, even if the Holy Ghost hit me up side the head with a frying pan (frying pans, who knew?) I probably would not recognize it anyway. On the other hand none of the fantastic claims of the church are falsifiable and I have no real reason to doubt that Joseph Smith is the prophet of the restoration, to say that I believe all of the outrageous claims of the LDS church is a stretch for me, much less claiming that I know with any kind of certainty is out of the question with out empirical evidence to support such claims. In any case I have no desire to leave the church, I truly value my church associations and because I have always strived to live the gospel I have grown immensely as a person from my service in the church (in fact I consider this to be the basis for my testimony). As a skeptical person by nature I tend to question just about everything, to include a witness from the holy ghost because I see no reason why such a feeling couldn’t simply be my own emotions. On the other hand I am faithful in living the gospel and keeping my covanants, so is that enough? I guess what I am most courious about is how is it that virtually every member who bears their testimony claims to know with out a doubt that the gospel is true when that is clearly impossible considering the basis of the evidence. One might have a very strong conviction that the LDS church is true but that is a priori knowledge (conceptual) and not a posteriori knowledge which is based on empirical evidence.

You are misunderstanding what I am trying to say snoozer, when I said the following I was paraphrasing the second lecture in Lectures on faith, pgs 25-26. We cannot become godlike independently, but once we have achieved godhood (by virtue of grace made possible by the Saviors atonement) we are no longer dependent on anything or any one, that is what it means to be a god as explained in Lectures on Faith. I will grant that the term atheist is used to reject the notion of Gods existence, so in this regard I will retract my statement as false, in the sense that Heavenly Father, while independent now, was dependent on his Heavenly Father to become God. On pages 38-39 in the third lecture his attributes are defined and explained, it was never my intent to say that I only want to be a god to glory in my achievements. Just to reiterate, once one becomes a god faith becomes dormant because we will be omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. We become to object of faith no longer requiring faith. But we will also possess the following attributes because once we are a god our only purpose will be to labor with the other intelligences who will be our offspring to be able reach their full potential, and thus we will have joy and rejoicing in our posterity. 2 From the foregoing testimonies, we learn the following things respecting the character of God. 13 First, That he was God before the world was created, and the same God that he was, after it was created. 14 Secondly, That he is merciful, and gracious, slow to anger, abundant in goodness, and that he was so from everlasting, and will be to everlasting. 15 Thirdly, That he changes not, neither is there variableness with him; but that he is the same from everlasting to everlasting, being the same yesterday to-day and forever; and that his course is one eternal round, without variation. 16 Fourthly, That he is a God of truth and cannot lie. 17 Fifthly, That he is no respecter of persons; but in every nation he that fears God and works righteousness is accepted of him. 18 Sixthly, That he is love.

As near as I can tell and as far as I can recall I have only ever received one no kidding "and the heavens opened up" type of response to a prayer. The Holy Ghost is very wise, the witness I received was exactly what I needed at the time but in reflection it did nothing to strengthen my testimony but after the experience (without going into details) I knew that the Savior loved me and knows who I am (in spite of my weaknesses and sins and everything, makes no difference to the Savior though, if we are trying our best to do better). So here’s my take on how prayers are answered, first things first however, in my patriarchal blessing I was advised to strive as best I can to think as God thinks. With that in mind, when I received that response to my heartfelt prayer, I was praying for strength because I had received my mission call and I was just beginning to realize what I had signed up for and I was seriously terrified. So that miraculous response to my prayer strengthened me for my upcoming service as a missionary. More recently another miracle happened, after I retired from the Air force I had a very hard time finding a job, after a few months I finally found a job but it was not the job I wanted, I was hired to be a stocker at the base gas station, after 20 years of honorable military service. To add insult on top of injury we could no longer afford our rent because of my drastic drop in income, we also home school and we did not want to traumatize our kids by dumping them into the public school system. We were facing literal homelessness when a member of our ward caught word of this (I tend to blab a lot much to my wife’s chagrin) and offered to let us stay in her 10x20 one room shack, and when I say shack I am not exaggerating. I also came across an old home built 8x20 ft concession trailer which I managed to convert into a living room of sorts. So here are the five of us crammed into this tiny space for who knows how long, we were surviving, we were far better off then we would be if were did not have the church and wound up under a bridge or something. Another miracle was my VA disability claim for sleep apnea but that is another story in of itself. Long story short one Saturday morning in late march I received a prompting to go to this model home in town and talk to them about a house. We had no money and I thought that this was the stupidest thing I had ever heard but I dragged my butt out of bed and headed over there. When I walked through it was as if they had been expecting me, the sales rep for the builder informed me that they had just had a customer fall through on a home because they could not get qualified on a loan, and I was the first person to walk through the door asking about a home. The house they had was perfect for us in every way imaginable, but there was one problem we simply could not afford this house. But we went ahead and scheduled an appointment for Monday afternoon at the bank to apply for financing, there was no way we were going to get approved. And yet the house was so perfect for us and we were so desperate at this point to get out of the little one room shack. Well it just so happened that literally 5 minutes before our appointment at the back I checked the mail on the way and after 9 months of waiting my disability claim arrived and I had been awarded 60% disability for my sleep apnea service connected condition and I had the necessary documentation of sufficient income and we were approved for the house instantly, the builder even let us preoccupy the house prior to closing and we moved out of the one room shack and into our brand new home on Wednesday. So just like that our lives were miraculously transformed, I do not yet know why we needed this particular home but I am sure that Heavenly Father has a reason for the blessings he gives to us. The point I want to drive home here is that there are no blessings until after your trial of faith, and believe me no one is a bigger skeptic than I am. But I was faithful to the gospel, I always did my best even though it seemed to me at times that I was all alone, it is not until now, after the fact that I am coming to realize that he was there all along, I just couldn’t see his hand in my life at the time. So my advice is to stay true to the gospel and have faith that Heavenly father knows you very well and trust in him and in your self. We are often more capable then we give ourselves credit for, only when we give our all and that is not enough does he intervene and only if we are truly committed to serving him. "Another common experience with light helps us learn an additional truth about the “line upon line, precept upon precept” pattern of revelation. Sometimes the sun rises on a morning that is cloudy or foggy. Because of the overcast conditions, perceiving the light is more difficult, and identifying the precise moment when the sun rises over the horizon is not possible. But on such a morning we nonetheless have sufficient light to recognize a new day and to conduct our affairs. In many of the uncertainties and challenges we encounter in our lives, God requires us to do our best, to act and not be acted upon (see 2 Nephi 2:26), and to trust in Him. We may not see angels, hear heavenly voices, or receive overwhelming spiritual impressions. We frequently may press forward hoping and praying—but without absolute assurance—that we are acting in accordance with God’s will. But as we honor our covenants and keep the commandments, as we strive ever more consistently to do good and to become better, we can walk with the confidence that God will guide our steps. And we can speak with the assurance that God will inspire our utterances. This is in part the meaning of the scripture that declares, “Then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God” (D&C 121:45)." The Spirit of Revelation Elder Bednar

Thanks for this info snoozer. Seriously this fact alone is one of the most remarkable testimonies of the gospel there is IMO.

It is indeed unfortunate but I believe the biggest stumbling block for the likes of Dawkins is their inability to recognize the reality that the Holy Ghost testifies of the truth directly to our spirit. I think it is often hard for us to remember just how foreign this concept is to the vast majority of people outside of our faith and to an atheist it is completely outside of their paradigm for reality. I wish I knew how to convey the message of the gospel more effectively to intellectual types, but so often they get hung up on the lack of empirical, testable evidence as well as many other hang ups. I consider myself to be extremely fortunate to have received so many personal witnesses from the spirit of the truthfulness of the gospel. It is because of this strength of testimony I have been blessed with that I am able to venture off so boldly with my wild hypothesis of Heavenly Fathers true nature and just how huge the scope of the plan of salvation might be while at the same time keeping my eye single to the solid doctrines of the restoration as Elder Callister so brilliantly explained in the October 2009 general conference. "Yet sorrowfully, on occasion, some are willing to set aside the precious gospel truths restored by Joseph Smith because they get diverted on some historical issue or some scientific hypothesis not central to their exaltation, and in so doing they trade their spiritual birthright for a mess of pottage. They exchange the absolute certainty of the Restoration for a doubt, and in that process they fall into the trap of losing faith in the many things they do know because of a few things they do not know. There will always be some seemingly intellectual crisis looming on the horizon as long as faith is required and our minds are finite, but likewise there will always be the sure and solid doctrines of the Restoration to cling to, which will provide the rock foundation upon which our testimonies may be built." Once one achieves ones exaltation and becomes a god, that is to say becomes a being who has faith in himself independently. Who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient; without beginning of days or end of life, and in him all fullness dwells. Who is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings centers, for life and salvation is by definition truly an atheist (unless my logic is flawed, so please feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong). Where as in our current state we are dependent on our faith in our Heavenly Father and in his Son that we may become as he is by adherence to the plan of salvation.

I owe it to Joseph Smith Jr. that I have the ability to understand Gods true nature and the true nature of our relationship to him by the spirit and with the mind of an atheist. "Undisguised clarity is easily mistaken for arrogance." — Richard Dawkins "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world." — Richard Dawkins "Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is the belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." — Richard Dawkins "One of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding." — Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion) "Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that." — Richard Dawkins "Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings." — Richard Dawkins "One of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding." — Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion) "Evolution could so easily be disproved if just a single fossil turned up in the wrong date order. Evolution has passed this test with flying colours." — Richard Dawkins (The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution) "Even if it were true that evolution, or the teaching of evolution, encouraged immorality that would not imply that the theory of evolution was false." — Richard Dawkins (The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution) "The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. " — Richard Dawkins "If all the evidence in the universe turned in favour of creationism, I would be the first to admit it, and I would immediately change my mind. As things stand, however, all available evidence (and there is a vast amount of it) favours evolution." — Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion) One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may. Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 199 We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 316 Truth is Mormonism. God is the author of it. Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 199 "It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is either ignorant, stupid, or insane." — Richard Dawkins "We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realize that we are apes." — Richard Dawkins "Molecular evidence suggests that our common ancestor with the chimpanzees lived, in Africa, between 5 and 7 million years ago, say half a million generations ago. This is not long by evolutionary standards." — Richard Dawkins If I revealed all that has been made known to me, scarcely a man on this stand would stay with me." and "Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the kingdom of God, I do know that you would rise up and kill me. Joseph Smith, Jr. "I am thrilled to be alive at time when humanity is pushing against the limits of understanding. Even better, we may eventually discover that there are no limits." — Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion) I love how atheists are able to think like Latter day Saints, or is it the other way around? D&C 132:20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. If heavenly Father isn’t an ape then what manner of being is he, or for that matter if evolution is somehow false, what manner of beings are we? I want to ask this congregation, every man, woman and child, to answer the question in their own heart, what kind of a being God is? . . . Does any man or woman know? Have any of you seen him, heard him, or communed with him? . . . God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make Himself visible,—I say, if you were to see Him today, you would see Him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another. . . . It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God Himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did. Joseph Smith Jr.

Just because we understand what a rainbow is does not make it any less beautiful. I am not sure where I heard that statement, so I claim it as mine, lol. I just happen to have this propensity to follow a concept to its logical conclusion neither do I see any harm in doing so. I am sure that these concepts I have shared even make my LDS brothers and sisters a little uneasy as well. I have no doubts whatsoever that we can eventually become gods, the precise means by which this feat is accomplished is unknown to us (after we reach exaltation learning line upon line will continue untill we are perfected, could be a long time for me). The idea that we are the creation of some incomprehensible being who we are so far below his level that the best we can ever hope for is to spend an eternity worshiping him is an extremely troubling concept to me. But from an LDS perspective the reason there had to be a restoration of the true gospel of Jesus Christ is precisely because of this view that humankind is an insignificant speck which is absolutely nothing compared to Gods infinite greatness (his pinnacle of creation, yet of absolutely no true significance because any real number compared to infinity is effectively nothing). This is the reason the Lord lashed out so harshly against mainstream Christianity when Joseph Smith Jr. prayed to God to know which of the sects he should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” I am in no way trying to diminish Heavenly Fathers exulted status in any way, he did after all create a bizarrely anthropic (fine tuned) universe, this absolutely baffles cosmologists. He created this magnificent earth/moon/solar system which is so perfect for intelligent life and is in fact a living world teeming with life (as well as countless other worlds). He personally knows each and every one of us, our sins and weaknesses as well as our goodness and strengths. If we humbly and completely submit our will to the fathers he can work miracles in us, he has the capacity to transform us from a carnal animal state into gods if we let him. This process has nothing to do with our talents and abilities, or how great we are, we pretty much suck (at least I do). But it is through the saviors atonement and our willingness to live the gospel the best we are able no matter how small our capacity that this deification is possible. The only reason I have labeled Heavenly Father as an exulted and perfect homo sapien (to say that we are animals is nothing more than a description of our physical/corperal nature, I do scincerly apoligize if I have offended anyone) is simply because it is an accurate description of what he is, calling him an ETI simply states that he did not originate from our world. The idea that I can become a god is something which has resonated with me from the very first time I grasped the concept, I don’t know exactly when that happened, but it was shortly after my family converted to the LDS faith 30 years ago this year. The fact that we are effectively the same as Heavenly Father in no way diminishes him in my mind, neither does it make me think that I am any greater then what I am. What this concept does do is it infinitely elevates the worth of a soul and it makes the atonement infinitely more significant in its power and scope. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Remember that resurrection is a free gift to all of us whether good or evil, everlasting life on the other hand is the reward for those who submit to the will of the father. Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Revelations 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I’m not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me Snoozer In Richard Dawkins the God Delusion (a wonderful book which in an odd way strongly agrees with the Mormon view of God, of course Dawkins is completely ignorant of this fact), chapter 6 asks the question if our sense of morality (or light of Christ) has a Darwinian origin, which in fact it does. I find this concept especially intriguing because it means that our brains have been hardwired with the light of Christ through the process of evolution, what an amazing concept! These studies also indicate that all humans have the same sense of right and wrong regardless of nationality or upbringing. If our moral sense, like our sexual desire, is indeed rooted deep in our Darwinian past, predating religion, we should expect that research on the human mind would reveal some moral universals, crossing geographical and cultural barriers, and also, crucially, religious barriers. The Harvard biologist Marc Hauser, in his book Moral Minds: How Nature Designed our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong, has enlarged upon a fruitful line of thought experiments originally suggested by moral philosophers. Hauser's study will serve the additional purpose of introducing the way moral philosophers think. A hypothetical moral dilemma is posed, and the difficulty we experience in answering it tells us something about our sense of right and wrong. Where Hauser goes beyond the philosophers is that he actually does statistical surveys and psychological experiments, using questionnaires on the Internet, for example, to investigate the moral sense of real people. From the present point of view, the interesting thing is that most people come to the same decisions when faced with these dilemmas, and their agreement over the decisions themselves is stronger than their ability to articulate their reasons. This is what we should expect if we have a moral sense which is built into our brains, like our sexual instinct or our fear of heights or, as Hauser himself prefers to say, like our capacity for language (the details vary from culture to culture, but the underlying deep structure of grammar is universal). As we shall see, the way people respond to these moral tests, and their inability to articulate their reasons, seems largely independent of their religious beliefs or lack of them. The message of Hauser's book, to anticipate it in his own words, is this: 'Driving our moral judgments is a universal moral grammar, a faculty of the mind that evolved over millions of years to include a set of principles for building a range of possible moral systems. As with language, the principles that make up our moral grammar fly beneath the radar of our awareness.' (Dawkins, pg. 219) In a recent study of the effects of powerful magnetic fields on specific regions of the brain, MIT scientists were able to switch off the sense of right and wrong in test subjects. This is further evidence that we have been hard wired with a common sense of morality which is the same for all humans. Magnets held to the head could switch off our sense of right and wrong | Mail Online New from Hasbro, the morality helmet, have fun turning off your sense of morality or watch what you friends are capable of doing with out a sense of Morality, fun for all ages! Warning has caused cancer in lab rats in California. The point that I really want to drive home is that Heavenly Father is a God only in the sense that he is far more advanced mentally and technologically then we can imagine, but because he is not of a terrestrial origin he is by definition an extraterrestrial Intelligence (ETI) and he is an animal, like were are who has advanced to the point of having the qualities of deity. I see no shame in recognizing the fact that we are animals who are capable of creating universes, life and consciousness itself. Heavenly father is a real physical male human who is the most advanced form of life which can possibly exist, we are atheists of any other description of God. We do not believe in a supernatural God of no substance who is an uncreated creator and who created the universe out of nothing. How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.' A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths (from A Pale Blue Dot by Carl Sagan). As Latter Day Saints we have an understanding of the universe as reveled by revelation and science is infinitely larger and more fantastic than Carl Sagan could have imagined! What has been revealed to us through modern revelation and by science in no way diminishes my awe and love of our Heavenly Father. Methodological materialism = no threat to spirituality. Methodological materialism = good scientific assumption. All Mormons should embrace scientific discoveries with an open mind and a sure knowledge that if there is an apparent contradiction between them it is due to our limited understanding of the universe and how the plan of salvation fits into it and not because there is any real conflict.

I found this book Biocosm at the library, the author makes a pretty dang interesting scientific hypothesis which basically mirrors our doctrine of our potential to become gods and create new universes in an infinitely large multiverse. To me this is yet another testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel; the quote is the implication of his theory. BIOCOSM-The New Scientific Theory of Evolution: Intelligent Life Is the Architect of the Universe. What is humankind’s place in the universe? That fundamental question underlies both scientific inquiry and millennia of religious thought. The traditional answer of science is that life and human intelligence are of no cosmic consequence but merely the random outcome of the interplay of natural forces. Mainstream religions answer the same question in many different ways but most share the view that the mind of the Creator of the universe is ultimately inaccessible to mortal minds. BIOCOSM challenges both viewpoints and suggests that the emergence of life and mind is a cosmic imperative encoded in the basic laws of nature and, further, that highly evolved intelligence will eventually play the key role in reproducing the cosmos. The author of Biocosm cited this article and from a gospel point of view it states that heavenly Father would by definition be an extraterrestrial intelligence which i thought was pretty interesting. Michael Shermer Shermer’s Last Law

I just want to say a quick hello and extend to you a warm welcome. I am a convert, I was raised to believe in young earth creationism. The only reason I am not an atheist my self is a very long story which I will not bore you with the details. Suffice it to say that I believe that the real universe is hidden from our view, but what we see and feel in this life is not make believe or a contrivance to test our faith. But I also have an intense desire to believe that the LDS faith is indeed real, by so doing I have been greatly blessed, in spiritual and personal growth, as well as having my temporal needs met in clearly miraculous ways. Plus if atheists are right I will be deeply disappointed when I die and discover that I no longer exist, lol. See you a round.

I am by no means an expert on the subject of evolution, but my testimony is strong enough that I do not have to walk on egg shells about how I interpret scientific fact with relation to our limited knowledge of how our Heavenly Father runs the universe. D&C 130:18Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. 19And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. Bertrand Russell “Recently I read a statement from a creationist who claimed that scientists are being dishonest when they talk about evolution. This person believed that evolution was being misrepresented to the public. The real problem is that the public, and creationists, do not understand what evolution is all about. This person's definition of evolution was very different from the common scientific definition and as a consequence he was unable to understand what evolutionary biology really meant. This is the same person who claimed that one could not "believe" in evolution and still be religious! But once we realize that evolution is simply "a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations" it seems a little silly to pretend that this excludes religion!” What is Evolution? A few words need to be said about the "theory of evolution," which most people take to mean the proposition that organisms have evolved from common ancestors. In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation. But in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it. The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution, just as the atomic theory of chemistry and the Newtonian theory of mechanics are bodies of statements that describe causes of chemical and physical phenomena. In contrast, the statement that organisms have descended with modifications from common ancestors--the historical reality of evolution--is not a theory. It is a fact, as fully as the fact of the earth's revolution about the sun. Like the heliocentric solar system, evolution began as a hypothesis, and achieved "facthood" as the evidence in its favor became so strong that no knowledgeable and unbiased person could deny its reality. No biologist today would think of submitting a paper entitled "New evidence for evolution;" it simply has not been an issue for a century. - Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986, Sinauer Associates, p. 15 There are readers of these newsgroups who reject evolution for religious reasons. In general these readers oppose both the fact of evolution and theories of mechanisms, although some anti-evolutionists have come to realize that there is a difference between the two concepts. That is why we see some leading anti-evolutionists admitting to the fact of "microevolution"--they know that evolution can be demonstrated. These readers will not be convinced of the "facthood" of (macro)evolution by any logical argument and it is a waste of time to make the attempt. The best that we can hope for is that they understand the argument that they oppose. Even this simple hope is rarely fulfilled. Evolution is a Fact and a Theory BYU NewsNet - Science professors don't view evolution as an 'either-or' proposition "We have the best of both worlds," Whiting said. "We can teach in the light of the restored gospel. [When students have a] better understanding of evolution, they realize their faith isn't being challenged." Professors do not avoid the topic of evolution at BYU or modify Darwin's theories in class. "We're teaching a solid, rigorous evolution course," Johnson said. "We spend time dispelling the myth that evolution and religion are incompatible," Johnson said. "We try to unburden students from the idea of either-or. That's baggage they don't have to carry." "Faith-affirming" evolution Johnson said his study of evolution has not diminished his faith, but has strengthened it by giving him a greater understanding of the creation. "It gives me insight into the creator's mechanism," Johnson said. "I hope every student comes out of my class with a greater testimony of the creation God has made." Whiting, who teaches a Book of Mormon class this semester as well as evolutionary biology, said he finds it much more impressive to view God creating species through the mechanism of evolution rather than individually. "I find it very faith-affirming," Whiting said. "We learn about the nature of the creator." Johnson said sometimes fitting together science and religion does create challenges, but students should not let this become a roadblock. He gave an analogy of building a rock wall. When he finds a good rock, but it doesn't fit into the wall, instead of throwing it out, he sets it aside to see if it will fit later. Johnson said often in biology, religion and life, all the answers do not come immediately, but that does not mean we should discard good ideas, such as evolution. "We need to be careful not to think that we understand everything, both from a science and religious perspective," Johnson said. "It's OK not to have all the answers." Professors said it helped students to understand the view of the creation in LDS theology, which does not always align with traditional interpretations of the creation story in Genesis. "The first thing is to realize we are not creationists the way the world understands it," Crandall said. He said understanding this makes it easier to fit the two together.

the·o·ry 1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena. Evolution is not a "belief", it is fact. By saying you only "believe" in evolution on a certain level (evolutionists don't "believe" in evolution, evolution is a proven fact from numerous different scientific disciplines), You are basically saying to science: "I do not believe what you say. Show me that it must be true and I will still continue not believing it." "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" Douglas Adams I honestly think the problem most members have with evolution is a lack of understanding of the deeper meaning of the gospel. On my mission I remember worrying about dinosaur fossils and the fall of Adam, I even prayed for an answer to this question, it really really bothered me. I am sorry to report that I did not receive any revelation on the matter, it has always been there, a nagging little doubt. Only recently did I find The Mormon Organon and I was like holy cow BYU teaches evolution?!!! That settled it for me once and for all, no more false dichotomy, I am at completely at peace except for the trembling excitement I feel every time I learn something new about evolution. I freely confess to not believing in evolution untill recently, I understand your doubts about it. But I also encourage all to study the topic, look at the evidence, it is all there, in the ground and in every creatures DNA. BYU NewsNet - Science professors don't view evolution as an 'either-or' proposition "Too often we assume a false dichotomy," said biology professor Jerry Johnson. "Yet one can accept evolution and still be a faithful follower of Christ." Why the mental gymnastics? If we have no clue on a particular gospel subject, and no way of finding out the answer unless we receive specific revelation on it, then dont worry about it. Stick to the gospel basics and its cool to go nuts with science, We can embrace science, we really really can. From here on out I ban mental gymnastics, only scientific truth or basic gospel principles are allowed, don't make me unleash FSMs noodly wrath on you! http://www.venganza.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/fsmbrochure.jpg “This earth and all that pertains to it, including every form of life on the face thereof, was first created in a terrestrial or paradisiacal state. Incident to the fall of Adam, the earth itself and all life on its face fell to their present telestial state” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed., p.633). Just because an apostle has a personal opinion on a topic, like evolution, does not gospel it make. General authoritys are not infallible.

"You must do what you feel is right, of course." "Oh, the human mouth is a disgusting place." Ignorance is bliss peanut I am not trying to poke fun at you, you are of course entitled to your own beliefs, which is very likely more in line with what mainstream LDS members believe. And that is ok, you are not the odd ball here, I am. But alas it is late and I must get up for work very soon, I will try to help you as best I can understand my perspective, hopefully with out comming across as superior, because I am just a stocker at the base gas station.

I completely agree with the point mute is trying to make, what we refer to as “the light of Christ” is in fact evolutionary in origin (kind of cool actually). What mute is saying is that you can be an atheist and be moral because our moral compass is fundamental part of our brain, we are hard wired to know right from wrong. The main source of evil in this world is in fact religion, not atheism. Here are some fun examples: The Earth Is Not Moving Discovery Institute Look out Oct 21st is just around the corner October 21, 2011 Judgment Day and End of the World! Tract - eBible Fellowship The universe and the Earth were actually created 6000 years ago and in just 6 days, forget all the “Evilution” nonsense I have been talking about, silly me. The Young Earth Creation Club So how many “jewels” do you have in your crown? MORMONFUNDAMENTALISM.COM WARNING! Do not go to these links with children in the room! You will see gruesome aborted fetuses, my mother exposed me to this kind of crap when I was very young because she was a anti-abortion protester, yes it traumatized me. I remember staring at anti-abortion pamphlets with pictures of trash bags full cut up fetuses and I was unable to take my eyes away from the horror! To this day they are seared into my mind. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! Army of God Writinigs of Paul Jennings Hill These people think that God wants them to murder abortion doctors because they have “murdered” thousands of innocent children. They want to create an “American Taliban” an intolerant regime bent on killing everyone who dares to disagree with them, especially “Mormons”, atheists, gays, Jews, ect. They would abolish most science, especially evolution, and thinking of any kind which does not include a strict "literal" interpretation of the Bible. But why stop at just one puny little abortion doctor when you can go all jihad on the USA. September 11 attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia A wacky, yet harmless “religion”, and they don’t want to hurt anyone or force them to believe what they believe! Just click on “Join Us”. Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster Blessed truth and sanity all in one neat package. Mormon.org & The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints For the views of atheists check out - RichardDawkins.net “The mission of the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science is to support scientific education, critical thinking and evidence-based understanding of the natural world in the quest to overcome religious fundamentalism, superstition, intolerance and human suffering.” I just finished reading Dawkins book "The God Delusion" and i am going to read it several more times, it is absolutely brilliant. A word of warning, don't read this book unless you have a kryptonite proof testimony, or you are already an atheist, unless of course you are contemplating atheism. I however found it to be extremely enlightening, I also discovered, for me at least, that the LDS faith is incredibly compatible with atheism! I am free from guilt (I have a testimony of the saviors atonement), I am free from dogma, I am free from superstition and the supernatural and I have embraced science as completely compatible with my faith. It has taken me my entire life to come to this personal realization, and it was a real struggle for me to come to grips with my faith and my skeptical mind. But in the end the LDS faith is the only religion which can go toe to toe with atheism, and that is no small feat, trust me. But you have to have an open mind, but what can possibly be more open minded then thinking that the human race is the offspring of deity, humans have the potential to become a god! But it’s ok if people do not agree with what we believe, it is one of the basic tenets of our faith, true freedom of thought. As LDS we are every bit as tolerant of other peoples beliefs as are atheists, except when those beliefs pose a threat to society, just like atheists.

Good read on faith and the power of science from BYU professor and evolutionary biologist Steve Peck Why science is so darned powerful The Mormon Organon What I do want to point out with this article on science is that the spiritual is every bit as important as the physical. They are literally two sides of the same coin, I want to build on this concept before I bring the desires of our heart back into the equation. Alma teaches that spiritual knowledge is discovered in the same manner scientific knowledge is discovered, if we run the experiment properly, the results will always be the same. In Lectures on faith we are taught that unless we have a correct understanding of who God is we cannot exercise faith in him sufficient for our salvation. Alma also teaches that faith can be viewed as a scientific experiment, with predictable results of faith gained. Base assumptions / paradigm (Alma 32:39) Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof. Observation (Alma 32:28) Hypothesis (Alma 32:28) Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me. Null hypothesis (The null hypothesis is a hypothesis which the researcher tries to disprove, reject or nullify.) (Alma 32:32) Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away. Experiment (Alma 32:27 & 36) 27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words. 36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good. Analysis (Alma 32:33) And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good. Knowledge created (Alma 32:34) And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand. Mormon Scholars Testify Blog Archive A. Scott Howe Question. Is there a being who has faith in himself independently? Answer. There is. Q. Who is it? A. It is God. Q. How do you prove that God has faith in himself independently? A. Because he is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnicient; without beginning of days or end of life, and in him all fulness dwells. Eph. 1:23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Col. 1:19. For it pleased the Father, that in him should all fulness dwell. (2:12.) Q. Is he the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings centers, for life and salvation? A. He is. 2 Let us here observe, that three things are necessary, in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation. 3 First, The idea that he actually exists. 4 Secondly, A correct idea of his character, perfections and attributes. 5 Thirdly, An actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing, is according to his will. For without an acquaintance with these three important facts, the faith of every rational being must be imperfect and unproductive; but with this understanding, it can become perfect and fruitful, abounding in righteousness unto the praise and glory of God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Having shown in the third lecture, that correct ideas of the character of God are necessary in order to the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation, and that without correct ideas of his character, the minds of men could not have sufficient power with God to the exercise of faith necessary to the enjoyment of eternal life, and that correct ideas of his character lay a foundation as far as his character is concerned, for the exercise of faith, so as to enjoy the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Jesus Christ, even that of eternal glory; we shall now proceed to show the connection there is between correct ideas of the attributes of God, and the exercise of faith in him unto eternal life. 2 Let us here observe, that the real design which the God of heaven had in view in making the human family acquainted with his attributes, was, that they through the ideas of the existence of his attributes, might be enabled to exercise faith in him, and through the exercise of faith in him, might obtain eternal life. For without the idea of the existence of the attributes which belong to God, the minds of men could not have power to exercise faith on him so as to lay hold upon eternal life. The God of heaven understanding most perfectly the constitution of human nature, and the weakness of man, knew what was necessary to be revealed, and what ideas must be planted in their minds in order that they might be enabled to exercise faith in him unto eternal life. Lectures On Faith