Universeman

I apologize, It was not my intent to say that non members were gentiles, I blame the spell checker :-) My mother has a tendency to take things to the extreme and unfortunately has been trying her best to alienate my brother and my sister in law by being overbearing in her efforts to make our family a “forevor family’. My mom’s biggest error was sending a very nasty anti Islam message trying to convert her daughter in law, could you imagine how you would feel if the situation was reversed? M-l defends her faith in Allah, but my mom still continues to pressure her to join the Saviors true church. In the end M-l still responds with kindness and patience in her response, my concern is that my mom will persist and just drive a wedge between them. I don’t know what I should say to my mom however because she does not take criticism very well, she always has to be right. My mom’s primary concern is that we won’t be an eternal family, but why else are we doing the temple work for all of G-d’s children who have been born on this planet. Are we not all destined to be part of an eternal family, and all of us save the sons of perdition, will receive a degree of glory based on the desires of our heart and our actions. D&C 137:9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. I wanted to share with you the exchange between my mother and sister in law (M-l), in order to share with you how good intentions can potentially cause great harm when trying to share the gospel with our friends or those we love, especially when we fail to empathize with their beliefs. --- On Sun, 5/8/11, mom wrote: Here is the truth of Islam. Please turn away while there is time. Click here: http://www.jorgeluisgonzalo.com/commentary_files/Chronology%20Of%20Islam.pdf --- On Sun5/8/2011 M-l writes: As I told you before, I respect your belief, your religion is yours mine is mine. I won't follow yours and you won't follow mine! So lets not criticize each other religion anymore.:)))))))) On Mon, 5/9/11, mom wrote: I'm sorry if you feel this way. As you want the best for your child, so do I want the best for mine. If you only understood the importance of being sealed, by the proper authority, for all time and eternity you would be able to see what I am trying to say. By your refusing to follow your husband's faith, you are taking my son away from me for ever - for all time and eternity. I am under the impression that in your culture, the wife follows her husband - am I wrong? You are the head of the household? The more that I read about Islam, the more alarmed I become. I had thought that it was the religion of Ishmael, but I now realize that it's the religion of Mohammad, and it has always been a violent religion. You were not reared in the extreme that most of Islam is, it isn't just the Terrorists either. You are a kind person and sees good in everyone and everything. I really admire you for this. So you don't see the reality of Islam. I do wish that you would allow the Mormon Missionaries to visit with you. If for no other reason than to understand better my beliefs, as you seem to be confused on many aspects. Many of the things you have written to me are not our beliefs, e.g., Jesus didn't pray to himself, he prayed to our Heavenly Father - they are not the same person, only one in purpose. I know that many Christian religion teach that they are the same, and that concept is as silly to me, as it is to you. Jesus did not, nor does he now or ever replace the one, all-powerful GOD, but he came to earth as more than a messenger. He came as the Son of GOD. While Jesus lived on this earth he felt all the human feelings, he experienced all that any of us experience - how else could he understand how we feel? He promised us the Holy Spirit to give up inspiration, and guidance. Do you still have the Book of Mormon that I sent to you? Please look up Moroni 10:3-5 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, 14\ith real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. I don't desire to upset you, M-l. I just want my family with me throughout all Eternity. Don't you want this too? Love, Mom --- ---On Mon, 5/9/2011 M-l writes: Mom, I love you so much. As you sad that you care about your child, in Islam we have to care about all people, especially our family members, and help them to understand God's only religion of Islam. All I was trying to do is to help you keep away from hell's fire and punishment. And you are in a wrong way, believe me I can swear for that. All that stuff we told you about Islam seems like you haven’t listen a single one...Islam is the peaceful religion. All you heard and read about it is the propaganda about Islam, I red the whole history of Islam and the story of Muhammad (pbuh)There is no single violence action, I can write you pages about this subject but I don’t have the strength, cause i know you will not listen MOM (( Some people hate Islam and they take some of idiots Muslims action out there and cost it to Islam. And some people including you are buying it. Something T-d told a while ago that I really liked. He sad devil made a good job with showing Islam totally something else then it is. Well first of all Todd made up his mind all by himself after he read the Quran. Because there is no compulsion in Islam. You have to freely choose it otherwise it wont accept from God. I didn’t pressure him, but i just tried to make him some points of Islam to make him see it. Well in Islam, the man is head of the house and because of that women are not allowed to marry a Christians or Jews or other religions out there. Because God knows then they will follow their husbands religion which will lead them to hell's fire.(God knows the best) Well I did marry a Christian but I was so away from God in that time. Thanks to My creator he guided my beloved husband to Islam and opened his heart to Islam. Praise Allah! I am sorry but nothing makes sense about Mormon belief to me! And thank you for your effort but I don’t need anybody come to my home to preach me about Mormonism. I know I am on the right path of my creator. I am only worshipping him ALONE with no partner. I am believing all of his messengers and his books. I worship the way all prophets did, and i fast the way all the prophets did. And if i want something I ask him directly, he can only hear me no one else. I love all his messengers equally no distinguishing one from another. Since Muhammad(pbuh) was the messenger of Allah to sent to whole man kind and the seal of the prophets, we imitate his actions, cause he was the living Quran. Some people take it we care and love him more then other prophets. But that is not true, we love all the prophets of Allah dearly! So how can I be wrong mom. Do you think God will be mad at me and put me in the hells fire because I worshiped him Alone, and accepted all of his books and messengers. have no possibility to be wrong. On the other hand, God will be mad at you to make him 3 instead of one, he will be mad at you cause you don’t directly talk to him, I hope you understand where I am going. But anyway, so lets not try to convert each other anymore. I am set and secure on my belief, with God's willing nothing will change that. I just want you to know i love you dearly, I will pray for you that God make you see and hear and guide you to his true path! --- On Tuesday, 5/10/2011, Mom wrote: M-l, I do pray directly to God, and none other. You say that you honor all the prophets, yet you do not honor the prophet that is on the earth today, Thomas S. Monson, or Joseph Smith, the prophet of God that restored the true gospel on earth as promised in the New Testament. Jesus said: 47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. 49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: 50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; (New Testament | Luke 11:47 - 50) Neither of us have to worry about hell and brimstones, because neither of us are evil. You and I are daughters of our Heavenly Father and he loves us, He has prepared a wonderful place for us to return to His presence. We just won't go as a family unit, unless we are sealed together by the proper authority. That includes Todd and you. He knows this, he is just counting on someone doing his work for him after he is dead - - which may or may not happen. No guarantees if he doesn't take care of it himself in this life. I do not hate Islam, but from the words you write - nothing else, it seems to be marked by intense animosity. You throw around words like "Because God knows then they will follow their husband religion which will lead them to hell's fire." These are very scary thoughts you have, but they are not from a loving Heavenly Father. I know from things you write that you often feel worthless and guilt-ridden. I wish that I had the ability to convey to you how much Heavenly Father treasures you, and how pleased he is with your devotion. I know that he is with me as well. I don't bring this any of this up to contend with you, M-l, I tell you these things because I love you and Todd and I know what I say is true. I know that there is no other way to return to our Heavenly Father, but through Jesus. I say this, not because I worship Jesus, but because Heavenly Father has said so. Families can be together Forever - don't you want that for you/our family? Do you pray set prayers or do you pray from your heart? Although prayer has a role in many religions and cultures, rarely is prayer considered to be a two-way communication between God and man/woman. I know that Heavenly Father not only hears our prayers, but will answer them. Words and thoughts will be impressed upon your heart and in your mind. If your prayers are sincere and you really want to know whether God is real and if He has established His Kingdom on earth - he will let you know the truth. I know he did for me. Will you promise to read the Book of Mormon? Hugs, Mom On Tuesday, 5/10/2011, M-l writes: Mom I am leaving for Turkey today. I got tons of things to do right now. So i will respond your e-mail once I get to Turkey okay! I love you, byeee

When my brother was stationed in turkey many years ago he married a local girl who was somewhat worldly in her youth but after she had a daughter and later a miscarriage she returned to the faith of her fathers. My brother who was baptized LDS but never received his endowments and has been inactive for 20 years has decided through the gentile persuasions of his wife that the Muslim faith is the true Path to God. Considering that our faith only represents .002% of the worlds population, does anyone have any insight to this glaring discrepancy and what exactly is our message to the world, will god condemn my brother because he is following the dictates of his conscience? What of the eleventh Article of Faith? I am confused because I am an active, faithful, and endowed Latter day saint, obviously I know what the requirements of exaltation are, but what of those who reject our message, even former/inactive members who feel another (any faith other than the one true church of Jesus Christ) path is the true path? I have a good relationship with my brother but he has made his decision clear and I do not feel that it is my place to condemn him for his decision. Any insights into this question would be greatly appreciated. Do AoF 3 & 4 contradict 11? 3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. 4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. 11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

I’m not sure how sinning and repenting or living righteously affects ones understanding of the atonement, I feel like I have a very good grasp on the true meaning of the atonement and the love the savior has for me even when I sin. However the more consistent I am at being obedient and righteous the more in tune I am with the spirit. That’s the big difference I think, any of us can have unlimited access to personal revelation if we strive our best to be obedient and live the gospel the best we are able to, I don’t think the general authorities have special access to revelation except where it comes to governing the lords kingdom, in other words all of us are entitled to the same level of understanding of the atonement and to have a testimony of the truthfulness of the restoration.

I could care less if my sins are worse than a general authority’s or yours or anyone else’s, so long as I repent of my sins it makes no difference. Sometimes I screw up and I have to repent, that’s life, while President Monson may be better at not sinning then we are that’s completely irrelevant to our salvation. Even the worst sins can be fully repented of except for the unpardonable sin, if you screw up really bad, think of the most horrible crime you have ever heard of, that person can fully repent of his sins and receive exaltation, it surely will not be an easy road for that person but that’s the atonement if you think otherwise (or someone you know) then you(they) don't understand the gospel. I love the gospel, it fills my jar with warm fuzzys!

My apologies marshac, it was never my intent to insult. I have struggled my self on how to reconcile my faith with my scientific studies, I still do and you are surely far more knowledgeable regarding evolution than I am for example. Considering your field of expertise I would be surprised in the extreme if you have never encountered a hard line atheistic evolutionary biologist during your academic pursuits. I guess what I’m hoping to get across with this thread is how can we best confront these differences with our colleges that we work with or otherwise encounter. How can we advance our scientific pursuits if in the middle of an equation we simply insert “and then a miracle happens” as some sort of stop gap measure until we learn how Heavenly Father operates, we all know that’s not going to fly. How we approach these issues with our professors and colleges can be rather touchy, I want to discuss these kind of touchy subjects with other Latter Day Saints so that perhaps together we can find better ways to confront these issues. However based on my exposure to atheists its pretty much best to not mention God at all as they really don’t care what our beliefs are and they will are only willing to consider empirical data. To quote another famous atheist, Douglas Adams Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? Of course I believe in God but I don’t believe that there are fairies under the garden either. I have heard that quote by Arthur C Clark and I see where you are going with it and I completely agree with you. What’s tricky is where do we draw the line between faith and science and not start tossing fairies under the garden just because we don’t know how things work? I really hope that I’m making sense and not making things worse, if not please ask me to clarify.

Remember dark energy's existence is unprovable because it can only be inferred by its effects, does any one else see a parallel between dark energy and the spirit? Just thought I would point that out because that’s kind of interesting I think.

All I'm saying is that science is based on imperfect theories which are then supported by empirical data until such time as new data requires a rethinking of the old model, Dark Energy is a perfect example of the scientific process in action. Saying that dark energy doesn’t exist, is like saying God used magic to create the universe out of nothing, which BTW he didn’t. SkyandTelescope.com - News Blog - Dark Energy: Real and Overwhelming

I am deeply concerned by the responses I have received from you concerning scientific knowledge you have made some very illogical ascertations. Science is the pursuit of knowledge through the study of the physical universe, as such it is a human and imperfect endeavor, on the other hand even with the revealed gospel, not every thing has been revealed to us, such as the manner in which the universe or our planet was organized out of unorganized matter, or how life was placed on the Earth, all we know is that this was accomplished by some means that has not yet been revealed to us. That said if we know that Heavenly Father exists as has been revealed to us by Joseph Smith, then what do we have to fear from some scientific discovery that is seemingly at odds with what has been revealed to us regarding the true nature of the universe. AoF:11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. And 13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. Also D&C:19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. All I'm saying is there is no need for us to feel threatened by science such as when the vast majority of the scientific community agrees that 74% of the universe consists of dark energy or that life on this planet is the result of billions of years of evolution. Scientists’ are not trying to deceive us, they are simply studying the nature of the universe and life on this planet the best that they are able to in the most honest and pier reviewed manner possible based on testable hypotheses. Furthermore let me add that if we could prove the existence of Heavenly Father through scientific discovery it would destroy our need for faith, this applies to the Book of Mormon as well, we are required to have faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. D&C:29 And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. Alma 42: 7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will. 8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness. 9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death. 10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state. I simply study science as honestly as I possibly can, I try to understand the discoveries in an unbiased manner, to say that the universe was created in such and such manner is pointless speculation and I see no harm in learning from the best books on science and pondering what I can learn from them. Science has no bearing on my testimony whatsoever, because my testimony comes from the spirit and not from what I know about archeological evidence or scientific knowledge.

In Doctrine and covenants 93:29, the prophet also writes, 'Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." In addition, the Prophet taught, "There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is fine and pure" (131:7). Combining these teachings, "spirit element," also called intelligence, or the light (energy attributes) is transformed into spirit bodies (pure, refined matter), but it cannot be created of destroyed. In other words, and change in energy attributes corresponds to a change in mass. It seems the prophet Joseph clearly understood and taught this principle. Joseph Smith: The Prophet, The Man - Joseph Smith on Modern Science Professor Sir Eric Ash The law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant, although it may change forms, into heat or kinetic energy for example. In short, law states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Denying its validity would undermine not just little bits of science - the whole edifice would be no more. All of the technology on which we built the modern world would lie in ruins. There is no flexibility in the acceptance of the law as true - at all times, and in all circumstances. BBC NEWS | Technology | The perpetual myth of free energy In essence Joseph Smith himself taught that a perpetual motion machine would violate Heavenly Fathers own laws regarding the nature of matter and energy. BTW that’s a very interesting article from the BYU Religious Studies Center about how the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith taught are still in complete harmony with what we currently know about modern science. Yay time for conference!

Ya I'll buy that Snow, I'll be the first to admit that we completely lack the understanding as to how Heavenly Father organizes matter into habitable worlds, after all we don't even know what the universe is made of. According to our best instruments 96% of the universe consists of unknown materials and processes given that we do not know what Dark Matter or Dark Energy is. Astronomers can only account for 4% of the universe(AKA the stuff that we and all the stars are made of), Dark matters presence is infered by its gravitational effects on the orbital velocities of galaxies, and Dark energy is somehow accelerating the expansion of the entire universe, that’s a pretty big gap in our knowledge. I hope its ok if I have a tendency to go off the deep end, what can I say I cannot help my curious nature. :)

The title of this post was in jest btw , and I am not sure what “bull” your referring to Snow, that the universe does require God's intervention to operate? At any rate all I’m saying is that an atheist can explain how the universe operates with out the need for God to cause it to happen in the way that we observe it. I just want to clarify that I do have a strong testimony of the gospel, I simply have a tendency to be curious about the hard to answer stuff, you know the stuff that we have to try and figure out for our selves the best we are able, I don't shy away from criticism about what we believe because I have a strong testimony. If I am not making sense please ask me to clarify what I am trying to say is all I ask. Lets all be fonzie's here.

Yep Particle man by TMBG, thats where I got it from:lol: That and I love space and astronomy Thanks for the welcome:D

My dad is an atheist and yet some how I have managed to balance his way of looking at the universe without a god with my conviction that there is indeed one. I am currently working towards a BS in Space Studies which is giving me the opportunity to learn how the universe operates, I have learned that the universe in its current state gets along just fine with out any intervention from Heavenly Father whatsoever, in fact from the point of view of an atheist everything about our existence can be explained by the processes of natural causes and the life on this planet is nothing more then a result of the laws of physics and evolution, a chance occurrence of random events. The point I want to make is that we should not rush to judgment simply because someone does not think the same way we do because the fact of the matter is that even though I am as certain as I can possibly be that this gospel is true, that does not mean that we have a monopoly on all truth and that there is far more that we don’t know about the universe and the gospel then what we do know, I have no idea how my father, my brothers or any one else, my self included will be judged when it is all said and done. It seems incredibly selfish and unfair for us to say that we have a inside track on exaltation simply because we are lucky enough to be Gods chosen few, tantamount to baptizing babies IMO. On the other hand perhaps we aren’t God’s chosen people, but rather we are the people who have chosen to follow God and he has offered us the opportunity to be his servants by being a part of his kingdom here on Earth and doing his will for the salvation of man, what think you?

Universe man, Universe man Size of the entire universe man Usually kind to smaller man Universe man He's got a watch with a minute hand, Millenium hand and an eon hand When they meet it's a happy land Powerful man, universe man Nuff said:rolleyes:

Hi all, I’m a convert(aren’t we all) but I wasn’t born under the covenant at any rate, my family joined when I was around 13 way back in 1981, my mom, stepdad and myself are the only active members in my entire family at this point, my dad’s an atheist and my brothers are completely inactive. The best decision I ever made was to go on a mission, I really only had one convert to the gospel, me. Not all of us are destined to baptize hundreds of converts lol. After my mission I decided to join the USAF and I have been in 19 years now(I am currently stationed at Holloman AFB NM), boy time sure fly’s. I met my eternal companion 15 years ago at the Weber university singles ward, we have 3 children now and I’m trying to figure out what to do after I retire from the AF in a few years. I look forward to having some lively discussions about the gospel with you. :)