thekabalist

I'm going to be bold here and do tell me if I'm out of the line as I'm not LDS but our people struggles with similar issues. I have seen many cases like yours and usually it's one of two things: either it is jealoucy over the past or it is the feeling that your abstaining was done in vain since you're both now on the same level. Could it be that it's one of the two things that is bothering you? I think you need to find out exactly what is bothering you so that you can focus on the cause of your feelings. I think that before acting upon it you need to understand exactly what you are feeling. b'shalom!

That depends on how you see it. Yes the main activity within the Temple was the animal sacrifice so if one looks at the Temple's main function then you would be right. But it's more than that really. We believe the Temple was modelled after a pattern shown to Moses in the heavens. This I believe is where the Book of Hebrews draws much of its theology from. So the Temple is meant to be a physical reminder of the heavenly palace and because it is the dwelling place of the Shechinah and made after the pattern shown in heaven then the Temple is seen as a place that connects heaven and earth. The Temple also is meant to be the home of the ark so it can be seen also as a storeroom for the terms of the covenant with Israel so it's a House of Covenant. It is to be built in the place where G-d made His name dwell and it serves as a gathering place for the people in the most important religious festivities such as Pesach (Passover) Shavuot (Pentecostes) and Sukkot (Tabernacles). So the Temple also plays a prominent role in the Jewish calendar. It's possible I haven't thought of everything but in a nutshell this is it. b'shalom!

I have finally finished chapter 8. Yay! :) 33 And great was the multitude that did enter into that strange building. And after they did enter into that building they did point the finger of scorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not. Again when we look at the Hebrew meaning of the word “strange” as stated before then this “strange building” could very well mean a house of idolatry. 34 These are the words of my father: For as many as heeded them, had fallen away. 35 And Laman and Lemuel partook not of the fruit, said my father. 36 And it came to pass after my father had spoken all the words of his dream or vision, which were many, he said unto us, because of these things which he saw in a vision, he exceedingly feared for Laman and Lemuel; yea, he feared lest they should be cast off from the presence of the Lord. Why would Nephi insist that his father spoke many words? If we look at a possible underlying Hebrew the term would be רבים (rabim) which don’t mean only “many” but also “exalted”. This is an interesting word-play because even though the people who were in the lofty building believed they were in a higher spiritual state their words of mockery were coming from a low spiritual level whereas Lehi’s words were the ones truly exalted because they were the words G-d himself revealed to him. 37 And he did exhort them then with all the feeling of a tender parent, that they would hearken to his words, that perhaps the Lord would be merciful to them, and not cast them off; yea, my father did preach unto them. The word that is usually used in the Bible for tender is the word רך (rak). The most curious thing about this word is that it isn’t used only with the meaning of “tender” but also with the meaning of “weak” or “uncapable”. This shows us that Lehi must have suffered from a spiritual and emotional exhaustion by having to try to persuade his sons to follow the ways of G-d. 38 And after he had preached unto them, and also prophesied unto them of many things, he bade them to keep the commandments of the Lord; and he did cease speaking unto them. A preaching and a prophecy in Judaism have the same objective: To get the people to return to the ways of the law of G-d. However a prophecy is seen as an extreme measure to get people to listen to the ways of G-d. This is why Lehi first preached and then prophesied. It was Lehi’s last resort after this vision. They also understood that not heeding to prophecy is very serious as the Mishnah states: "He who suppresses his prophecy, or disregards the words of a prophet, or a prophet who transgresses his own word - his death is at the hands of heaven." (b. Sanhedrin 89a)

I'm glad. Sometimes written words give us the wrong impression. Also they say a sabra is thick on the outside and sweet on the inside. I've learned that to be true in several occasions. The best people I've met in my life were sabras. Forgive this old Yid then. :)

Precisely! :)

Yes it is how MODERN Judaism perceives the issue. You are taking what I say backwards because I am not saying that a Jew must have a foreign name. I am saying that when we have a foreign name we also have a Hebrew name and the Hebrew name is considered our spiritual channel and thus very important. Metatron is not a Greek name. This is an incorrect assumption made by outsiders. Metatron comes from מטרה (matarah) which means guide hence the angel of presence that guides to G-d. b'shalom!

I could be wrong but I sense a bit of hostility in your posts. I hope it is just an impression. About how one goes about when transliterating you are preaching to the choir. Though I would be careful not to always dismiss a vowel as it could easily mean a Vav or indicate an Ayin but in this particular case I agree with you. So much that this was my original proposition. Yet one should take into consideration that alterations can occur due to transliteration. Look at the name James. Because of the transposition into different languages it ended up as being significantly different from the original Hebrew name. In that sense, in some languages a letter such as the reish can sound more similar to a chet or hey depending on the speaker. It's not at all unlikely that mahan comes from maran. Granted it wasn't my initial alternative exactly for the very reason you stated above but still I see it as a possibility. Just the same way as I see what you have proposed as possible as well. We can only speculate in some cases. b'shalom!

The Torah says Joseph was given an Egyptian name and Jewish tradition points to others who also had more than one name during Egyptian captivity so this is not entirely true but you are correct in saying that a double name was more common after the Babylonian exile. My point was not to say that a double name was an early practice. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that if and when an Israelite was given a foreign name he would also have a Hebrew name. This isn't how Judaism perceives the issue so I guess we would have to agree to disagree. A name is so important that the Torah shows that spiritual realities are affected by one's name. And this continued for quite some time. Jewish tradition says that king Solomon was called Lemuel just to name another example. b'shalom!

Actually that's not correct my friend. The word is used in the Torah meaning master. Example: "If the thief be not found, then the master (Baal) of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbour's goods." (Exodus 22:7) As for the theory that Ezra would have redacted the Torah is a very common belief among scholars.

About "Master Mahan" I think there is a very interesting possibility I overlooked before. What if the word "Mahan" comes from the Aramaic word מרן (Maran)? This is interesting because "Maran" literally means "Our Master". In Aramaic this termination is used to indicate that one is master above all while "mar" simply means "master". For example in the Talmudic times the term "rabbi" was used for a teacher who had disciples but when further generations still followed his teachings he was called a "rabban". With this in mind imagine if the term "master" is the word "mar". It could be that something like "mar maran" which would mean "master of masters". I think this title is even used in Eastern Christianity. b'shalom!

Especially if you're Ashkenazi. I've seen Sefaradim make a greater distinction. But among the Ashkenazim even the transliteration in some siddurim is the same for chet and chaf. :)

Yes, I'm sure. Firstly because the Talmud at this point is evidently making a Remez and not using the Peshat. This is why I quoted the Talmud and not the Tanach because the Remez is what would indicate the allegorical use I was refering to. And secondly because whereas you are correct in your assessment that the context talks about briding schisms but here's the paragraph: GEHAZI, as it is written, And Elisha came to Damascus:9 whither did he go? — R. Johanan said: He went to bring Gehazi back to repentance, but he would not repent. 'Repent thee,' he urged. He replied, 'I have thus learnt from thee: He who sins and causes the multitude to sin is not afforded the means of repentance.' What had he done? — Some say: He hung a loadstone above Jeroboam's sin [i.e., the Golden Calf], and thus suspended it between heaven and earth [by its magnetism]. Others maintain: He engraved the Divine Name in its [sc. the calf's] mouth, whereupon it [continually] proclaimed, 'I [am the Lord thy God],' and 'Thou shalt have no [other] gods before me.' Others say: He drove the Rabbis away from him [sc. Elisha], as it is written. And the sons of the prophets said unto Elisha, Behold now, the place where we dwell with thee is too strait for us; proving that till then it was not too narrow. As you can see he is talking about about the sins of Gehazi at this point. And one of the sins was to "drive the Rabbis away" (ie. persecute them) which they indicate the Remez in the Tanach was hinting at by such an expression. Do you see how we derive the allegory? It does reflect older POVs as this feeling has always been the feeling of Israel. The feeling derives from a misunderstanding of the Torah. You see the Torah basically says that if you're good you'll be blessed and stay in the land of Israel and if you're bad you'll be driven away from it. Therefore it was a widespread belief that dying in Israel would mean that you would die in G-d's favor. The quotation was simply meant to give an example of such a sentiment. b'shalom!

Interesting idea about the Temani ayin. That's definetly a possibility. I hadn't thought of that. :)

The problem my friend is not what you did with the seeds before planting. What I was attempting to say is this: Imagine the amount of seeds one would have to handle in order to get all such plants into a foreign land. Evidently they didn't take one sample of each as that would have been risky. We are talking about a massive amount of seeds. Now you wouldn't want to accidentally mix those seeds not because the mixing of seeds before planting would be a problem but because you could end up accidentally planting them together. Do you understand my point? b'shalom!

The Talmuds were written in a much later time in history in a moment when there were a lot of converts to Judaism and a lot of Jews who were losing their identity. You don't see much of that in a community which maintains its identity as you probably know that the name for a Jew is his or her spiritual identity. And what I mean when I say a double name is to give one foreign and one Hebrew name and not two Hebrew names. I guess I should've explained that. :) b'shalom!

The word Baal is extensively used in the Torah. If we believe that Moses wrote it then the word Baal apears much earlier than the Second Temple. We Jews don't buy the idea that Ezra haSofer wrote the Torah. b'shalom!

Here's some more but before you read it make sure you check the update on verse 26. I'm sorry this is taking a bit long: 27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit. Why were they pointing their fingers while mocking at those who partook of the fruit? The act of pointing your finger to the law of G-d is a very old Jewish custom. In a religious service where the scroll of the Torah is open the Israelites will point to the Torah as an act of recognition that this is the word of G-d. A Midrash says that this is because when the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea they pointed towards G-d at the words “this is my G-d” and since then there is such a habit. So when we think of people who were pointing fingers downwards in mockery it would be like saying “I have no G-d” and it would have been understood at the times of Lehi as an act of great blasphemy. Much greater than most would realize by reading the passage nowadays. 28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost. There is a fantastic word-play here that only makes sense in Hebrew. Lehi says that those who fell away did so into “forbidden” paths. The Hebrew word for “forbidden” is the word אסור (Asur). Now the word for Assyria is the word אשור (Ashur). What had Lehi’s family fled from a few centuries before? The Assyrian captivity that befell upon the Northern kingdom of Israel. So Lehi’s word-play is an indication that those of Judah who mocked the laws of G-d would fall into the same kind of captivity as the other tribes before them. 29 And now I, Nephi, do not speak all the words of my father. 30 But, to be short in writing, behold, he saw other multitudes pressing forward; and they came and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press their way forward, continually holding fast to the rod of iron, until they came forth and fell down and partook of the fruit of the tree. Our sages have always stated that Israel would become like multitudes in the exile. So these multitudes likely refers to those of the lost tribes of Israel who would one day return as said in Isaiah 27:13: “And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.” This matches the word-play that Lehi made earlier and it would mean that some of those would eventually find their way back to the law of G-d which is the tree of life. 31 And he also saw other multitudes feeling their way towards that great and spacious building. 32 And it came to pass that many were drowned in the depths of the fountain; and many were lost from his view, wandering in strange roads. The sea: In Hebrew the word for depth is עומק (omek) which literally means “an empty hole that descends into the earth. So we can understand that Lehi believes that it is their own emptiness as they were lacking in the word of G-d that was responsible for drowning. The depths can also be associated with graves as the Talmud says: “Whosoever departs from the words of the Torah falls into Gehenna, for it is said: The man that strayeth out of the way of understanding shall rest in the congregation of the shades;10 and the shades must be synonymous with Gehenna for it is said: But he knoweth not that the shades are there, that her guests are in the depths of Sheol” (b. Bava Batra 79a) One question the reader may have refers to why would people see others drowning and attempt to cross the river anyway? The Talmud explains that there was a foolish superstition among the people that those who drowned would attain life: “Rab Judah said in the name of Samuel, or it may be R. Ammi, or as some say it was taught in a Baraitha; On one occasion four hundred boys and girls were carried off for immoral purposes. They divined what they were wanted for and said to themselves, If we drown in the sea we shall attain the life of the future world. The eldest among them expounded the verse, The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring again from the depths of the sea.19 'I will bring again from Bashan,' from between the lions' teeth.20 'I will bring again from the depths of the sea,' those who drown in the sea. When the girls heard this they all leaped into the sea. The boys then drew the moral for themselves, saying, If these for whom this is natural act so, shall not we, for whom it is unnatural? They also leaped into the sea. Of them the text says, Yea, for thy sake we are killed all the day long, we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.” (b. Gittin 57b) Strange roads: To the reader the idea of “strange roads” can be rather “strange” in English. But in Hebrew it makes perfect sense. The expression “strange” in Hebrew is זר (zar) which is used in connection to idolatry. In fact in Jewish literature idolatry is called עבודה זרה (avodah zarah – strange service). So a “strange road” would be a road that led to idolatry.

I have updated the commentary on verse 26 with some interesting info I've found. :-)

This has by far been the greatest contribution. Thank you! As I am reading 1st Nephi for the first time I didn't know that this had been a negative revelation. I managed to find great information about this bit of Lehi's vision in Jewish tradition.

It doesn't really matter much how you spell Chanukah as it's a transliteration. A transliteration has no official form of writing. It's only a matter of transporting the sound of one language into the writing of another. One way or another we don't have the exact same sounds in English as we do in Hebrew and so there's always some accomodation. Besides, Chanukah is probably the word with the greatest number of different transliterated spellings among all Jewish words. There are even jokes about it. The only official spelling is חנוכה. ;-)

Ah yes and this reminds me of one of the greatest teachings of chassidut. Well at least one of the greatest in my opinion: that everything that is dark conceals light. Every evil that we perceive we must strive to find the concealed good in it. If we can't because darkness is too thick then it's because it's actually such a high spiritual good that we cannot grasp it with our current understanding. Thank you for being the one who has noticed the great good that came from this evil. I too saw that among the evil treatment I received at the other forum for being Jewish and willing to exchange religious information with the LDS, there came great good as I was able to make new friends. :) Chag sameach!

I find it extremely offensive to hear you say that Judaism is a false religion. Which religion do you think Jesus and all his ancestors were brought up in and worshipped in?

Curiously he was also claiming the LDS aren't Christian either. It seems to me however that you guys are far better Christians than he was. I wish every Evangelical I knew was like Prisonchaplain.

Glad to see another Yid around. I just regret the circumstances as they are most offending to our people. This reminds me of the time in the other forum where a Christian accused us of worshipping the devil. What those who play pranks on forums don't understand is that we've lost family over these very same accusations. I guess we'll only stop being persecuted in the olam habah. Sadly the part about trying to convert people inside our own synagogues is not made-up. I've seen it many times.

You know the first thing that came to my mind when you said "Master Mahan"? It sounds like the term "Mastema" (משטמה). In DSS literature this is one of the names given to Satan. It means hatefulness. Another interesting possibility for Mahan is: מחן (m'hen - literally "out of grace"). I would bet all my chips in this interpretation and I'd like to explain why. Now consider the word "master". One of the forms that is used in Hebrew for master is בעל (baal). Now this is very relevant because "baal" is also used in connection with becoming deep into a spiritual state. For example someone who was raised completely outside religion and then starts following it is called a בעל תשובה (baal teshuvah - master of return/repentance) whereas someone who is wicked beyond hope is called a בעל עבירה (baal aveirah - master of transgression). So when Cain possibly calling himself a בעל מחן (baal m'hen) he not only is calling himself a master who has come out of the grace of G-d meaning he no longer needed it, but also this shows that he achieved the lowest possible spiritual state that would eventually mean that G-d would show no grace towards him. Interesting isn't it? b'shalom!