GaySaint
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Posts posted by GaySaint
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Bytor: It has been my experience that those who act out sexually because of abuse can also have those burdens lifted by counseling. In other words, once the abuse is sorted out and resolved in the person’s life, the behavior changes.
I most certainly wouldn’t consider this person to be homosexual. Instead, I would say he used homosexual behavior as a way to cope with his past trauma. Why this particular behavior? He’d be better off to answer that question than I would be.
You mention that he was “only attracted to women.” That right there tells me he is heterosexual (or on the heterosexual side of MOE’s scale).
I think the problem with the friend in the OP is that he finds himself attracted to those of the same gender, regardless of his sexual experience (which I would assume would be none, but perhaps Lizzy could clarify if past/current abuse is something he is dealing with).
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Hi Lizzy, I wanted to add my two cents:
I knew I was gay when I was 12, although at 15 I doubt I would have had the courage to admit it to anybody, so the fact that he told you is really a great thing. It shows that he trusts you. I would agree with Soul that we are often conditioned to want to get married and have children, and that figuring out how to have a family/spouse/children etc. can be very confusing at this age for someone who feels attractions to their same gender. My advice to you would be not to put him in any one “box” – if you will. Be there for him regardless of his choices, and always encourage him to form a relationship with the Lord through prayer, also regardless of his choices.
I often see gay people turn away from God because His followers tend to push them away. Even the quotes that you shared sure talked a lot about discipline, which we all know is not the best motivator. It isn’t fair to set his expectations as “marriage to a woman and children” as the only ideal, especially because I don’t know many gay men who are able to make this work out very well. He should also start being prepared for the possibility of celibacy, and perhaps even given information regarding the possibility of a homosexual relationship (when he is older, haha) so that he is able to make an informed decision.
There really are three choices: Marriage to a woman, celibacy, and a relationship with another man. Hiding one of these options is not a good idea. Discussing the pros and cons of all of the above seems the best course of action. It would be fair to say that only option 1 or 2 would allow someone to remain a faithful member of the church (but since he isn’t a member of the church leaving out option 3 would seem like you are trying to force him into the “church” box. Does that make sense?). But options 1 and 2 have consequences of their own, and if these aren’t discussed fully and openly, when the consequences occur bad things can happen if the gay person isn’t prepared :).
As someone who’s been there, feel free to PM me or have him do so if you think I can help, or if you have any questions (or ask them here too).
But most of all, thank you for being concerned for him, and for being there for him. This really will mean more to him than you know.
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As to some of the questions, as someone who has been through this, unless the CHI has changed in this regard, you are not allowed to wear garments or pay tithes after being excommunicated (although I do find it odd that a non-member can pay tithing if they wish, but excommunicated members can not). I specifically asked the tithing question because I wanted to continue paying them, but was instructed that I would not be allowed.
I also believe that one would still have access to the Holy Ghost if such access is sought. The gift may be taken away, but I find that the spirit is always there when I ask it to be. There is no "formal" process for removing any of the gifts or blessings of the gospel (in other words, you don't have hands laid on your head to strip you of blessings, etc).
I've always viewed excommunication as the Lord's way of saying, "Let's start over when you are ready." I believe very strongly that it has been a blessing in my life.
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The FRC has been involved in a lot of interesting political campaigns lately dealing with the Uganda "kill the gays" bill. Specifically, the FRC paid $25,000 to lobby Congress against approving a resolution denouncing Uganda’s plan to execute homosexuals (I have a link to to the copies of the official lobbying report if anyone would like it posted, but it leads to a "gay friendly" blogger's website, so I don't want to post it without permission... Maybe I'll PM it to people who would like to see the report, or try to find another source)
Doing a google search for Tony Perkins, the head of FRC, or worse, Peter Sprigg (who either wants gays sent out of the country or their lives criminalized, depending on the interview) will turn up the reasons I would personally consider FRC worthy of the "Hate group" label - and I think you all know I don't use those types of terms lightly... ever.
I would be inclined to say, however, that anyone who supports the Uganda bill in its current iteration, which calls for the death of homosexuals, indeed deserves the label of "hate."
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I happen to like garland tinsel. There are some gorgeous ones out there. I hope people aren't confusing garland tinsel with the aluminum icecicles. The icecicles you find months later.
Ok, EVERGREEN garland would be accetable around a doorway or down a banister, but why would someone put evergreen garland on an evergreen Christmas tree. Filling in the visible gaps?
OP: Take pictures. Let's clarify :) Although if your wife is saying no she's probably right, haha.
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Trust the gay boy: NO TINSEL!
1970 was a long long time ago =)
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Abigail: I spent years wishing and hoping and praying and fighting with the Lord over my unwanted feelings. I would encourage you to do the same, only because then you and your Heavenly Father will have some great talk time, and you will learn how to talk to Him and how to listen to Him. Don't get discouraged if he doesn't take these feelings away. The fact is that most of the time He doesn't (although there are the rare occasions!).
But that doesn't need to make you lose hope. There is a great self-power and self-learned-lesson in accepting your feelings, loving that part of yourself just as much as you love any other part of yourself, and then, instead of asking God to remove them from you, asking Him, "Ok, I've accepted myself as and this challenge as part of me. I am still your daughter. Now what?"
I admit that I know a lot more bisexual women than I do bisexual men. Personally, I think this has to do with how the Lord has given women the ability to be more compassionate, more loving, and more understanding (more emotional, haha) than most men (except us fabulous gay boys, that is, hehe).
He didn't make a mistake, and I have no doubt that your feelings and attractions will play a larger role throughout eternity. We don't really understand everything about same-sex attraction yet, but that doesn't mean that God can't reveal to you His purpose FOR YOU in this life.
If I could go back and tell my 15 year old self one thing, it would be not to cry myself to sleep every night over this. I would tell myself that I was ok, and that it's ok to love myself and be proud of the fact that I am different.
I leave that same encouragement for you. If these feelings don't go away, trust yourself and your Heavenly Father enough to know that you will learn how to deal with them. And that's ok. If anything, the closeness this issue will cause you to get with your Heavenly Father makes you even MORE worthy, MORE beautiful, MORE humble, MORE understanding, and MORE compassionate - just like everyone's personal struggles do for them in their own way.
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First of all Abigail, calm down, my dear.
You should know first and foremost that God loves you, your parents love you, and there are many many members of the church who love you. The Lord is there to help you understand what he has prepared for you, and is willing to weep with you and be there for you when you are at your lowest lows.
This is not your fault, and there are communities in the church who will be supportive of you. It might take you a long time to figure out what you want to do, and that's ok!
The church just released the new edition of the handbook of instructions, and it emphasizes that what you are feeling is not sinful. You have done nothing wrong.
Focus on your relationship with the Lord. He will help you. You may have some unique challenges to face (and let's admit it, some stupid people both inside and outside of the church), but you can do this. With the Lord's help you can be happy.
There are tons of people on these forums, including myself, who are here for you. You are not alone.
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As Spock would say....fascinating! These stories are becoming very common..... I don't fly much, I would probably just get scanned rather than groped. Unless the TSA Agent was uber hot...and er...Mrs. Bytor wasn't around :)
Bytor, at first read I envisioned a male TSA agent, and I was a little shocked you would say that!
hahaha.Anyway, TSA was right. The last time I was at the airport I accidently got into the full body scanner line. No biggy, but when I got through the line I asked the TSA agent if I could have a copy of my picture for my facebook account. He wasn't amused.
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P.S. Catholics are Christians.
I meant christians as the christians define themselves: as members of the Christian Coalition (of which the Catholic church is not a part). By this definition, many religious organizations that claim christian ideals are not "Christians," including the LDS church.
So for the purpose of my last post, that was the definition by which I was going, since that is the definition those in the Christian Coalition impose upon themselves. Maybe I should have used a different example
If this thread is to say that sexual orientation doesn't affect whether a parent is going to be a good one or a bad one, I agree.
That was my point. I don't think the study was trying to claim that 0% of lesbian mothers anytime anywhere throughout the known universe would abuse a child, just that in this particularly study, none had.
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JAG: I would hope the study isn't used to "prove" that gay parents are better than straight parents, etc, but I can see why it would be used to suggest that gay parents aren't WORSE than straight parents, LESS virtuous, etc. I think the problems with such claims are also equally obvious.
But it is silly to compare pearls to swine (I hate seeing the "perfect gay couple" compared to the "abusive straight couple" or the "sinful gay couple" compared to the "righteous mormon couple"). Let's compare good gay couples to good straight couples, and admit that the children in both are likely to experience a loving, accepting, home with parents who teach them values and morals (although it would be fair to admit that some of those values and morals may differ slightly, just as they would with a child raised in a good catholic home verses a good christian home).
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LM: I'm just curious as to your worldview. Are you saying that it would be your guess that gay men would abuse their children more than the general population?
I'm not trying to argue or change your worldview, I'm just wondering what in your worldview would make you think that.
It might apply and it might not, but the rate of domestic violence in general in same-gender relationships (regardless of whether they are lesbian or gay) is about 25%, roughly the same as the rate of domestic violence against heterosexual women in opposite-gendered couples. (Domestic Violence in Gay Relationships).
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PC: I'm sure it's possible to emulate the preparation, and the desire for a family, and the stability =)
I don't think the RELATIONSHIP has anything to do with it, honestly. The relationship happened to RESULT in the preparation, desire, and stability, but the preparation, desire, and stability is not DEPENDENT on the relationship.
I also have to admit that I find the part about the female children of these couples being more likely to experiment with members of the same-sex and identifying as having a more fluid sexuality interesting (and you all thought I would leave that part conveniently out of the discussion, lol). Since I don't have much experience with female sexuality I can't really comment on why I think this is...
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Something makes perfect sense for me there too - but I'm thinking the world doesn't wanna hear it.
LM
I'm not quite sure what you are alluding to here. I think PC's last comment makes a lot of sense, and would expect the same to be true of gay males as well (in that, as they have to prepare a lot more for a child, the instances of abuse would be lower than the general male population until that preparation is no longer required. Then it would probably equal out to the same level of abuse amoung men in general). Do you not agree?
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Lol. Bytor, maybe you should have left the one Dravin just quoted as "overcome" =)
But in response, I would say that if an attraction is not sinful then it doesn't need to be overcome (do you need to overcome your attraction to other women, or do you simply control your behavior? Feeling "desire" isn't sinful either, IMO). Sinful behavior that can RESULT from an attraction may need to be controlled.
In regards to homosexual attractions for those wishing to remain faithful to the church, one would have to endure the attraction and overcome the behavior.
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Bytor: Can I ask one thing of you? Instead of saying that same-sex attraction can be “overcome” by faith, can you change “overcome” to “endure?”
The reason is that when people with same-sex attraction hear this, it immediately leads to the conclusion that if someone doesn’t “overcome” their same-sex attraction, it must mean they LACK faith – which leads to discouragement, disappointment, and despair (and is highly untrue).
I think there are many in the church, including leaders, who are leaning toward the understanding that same-sex attraction rarely if ever is “overcome” in this life. I don’t disagree that it can be endured with faith, and I think that saying someone can endure in faith is much more realistic.
Unless by “overcome” you mean “still struggle with but control sufficiently” – but even if so, endure seems to be a better word for the intended meaning.
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The most RECENT statement by the church that I can think of in regards to what will happen to homosexuals in the afterlife comes from God Loveth His Children:
You are best served by concentrating on the things you can presently understand and control, not wasting energy or enlarging frustration by worrying about that which God has not yet fully revealed.
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JAG: Sorry for the lack of clarity =) Yes, not the illegal stuff!
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I don’t know how much this will help, but I’ve been thinking about this subject quite a bit lately, and in particular the psychological aspects of addiction and pornography. As a little background, my thought process started while talking to a former cop who used to work with the internet crimes against children taskforce, and we were specifically talking about child pornography, but I think some of my thoughts on this issue (and you’ll see why they tie together to your situation in a minute) might help you think about your addiction differently.
While talking to this cop, we got on the subject of how child pornographers seem to horde their “goods.” He talked about how it was usually pretty easy to find evidence for these people, because they could never bring themselves to delete ANYTHING. We talked about how it would be much more difficult to convict these people if they downloaded the porn, watched it, and then deleted it – but in his experience, this NEVER happened.
And that got me thinking about how as human beings we all seem to have one major downfall: an attraction to the forbidden. For some reason, the fact that pornography (just the normal kind, in your case) is supposed to be “off limits” makes it that much more alluring.
Maybe JAG can attest to this (as someone who has admitted to having been there and overcome this), but I know this was definitely true in my case. While I was “struggling with my sexuality” I had a hard time with pornography too. Now that I’m no longer a member of the church, and pornography is no longer “the forbidden fruit,” so to speak, I really have no desire to look at it. Obviously leaving the church isn’t what I’m suggesting, but finding a way to break the cycle of self-loathing, the allure of the forbidden, and the frantic frustration, I think, is the key (people who have low self-esteem, and tend to belittle themselves when the make a mistake, are even more susceptible to making the mistake again).
So, is admitting to yourself that you are an adult and can look at porn if you want to, but choose not to as a Son of God, enough to break the attraction to the forbidden? Is enlarging your circle of friends, improving your body image (however you need to do this: gym, eating better, etc), dating more, or perhaps seeing another counselor enough to bolster your self-esteem? When your mind starts to race frantically in the cycle of “forbidden fruit, sin, self-loathing,” is there something you can do that is calming – something where you can make yourself feel in control?
Maybe I’m wrong, but addressing these questions seems to have worked for other people I know, and they have to be addressed before you’ll have the power to beat the temptation.
Do you see yourself as a valiant son of God who has his issues just like everyone else, or do you see yourself as a sinner? Just having hope does wonders at enabling us to be the best person we can be.
I worked with a therapist regarding my SGA for two years who also did pornography addiction therapy. I’ll gladly share with you his name and contact information if you want to try counseling again (and I recommend him highly). Just PM me :)
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Wow, MOE. Thank you.
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Unfortunately, Wingnut, I have to correct you. I specifically requested a court because I couldn’t bring myself to resign. To me resigning was like turning my back on the church. Excommunication was the church’s way of saying “Let’s start over when you’re ready.” I liked the second option much better – and couldn’t bring myself to turn my own back on the church. There’s a lot of personal stuff there that won’t help the conversation, so I’ll leave it at that.
Dash: How sad is it that an EXCOMMUNICATED member of the church has to stand up for the active gay LDS members, has to tell their stories for them, has to support them, and has to counsel with members of the church because they are incapable of finding ways to support these members themselves? How sad is it that you, as an active member, cannot stand up and be that voice for them?
Maybe I’m not the best choice – but right now, Soul and I are the only ones they’ve got.
Why do I know the scriptures and the statements by the GAs? Is it because I seek out little nit-picky things that I can use against them? Is it because I have a desire to convince them that their own words mean something different than what they intended? Is that my purpose? Absolutely not. I know their words because I had to struggle with making them fit into my life experiences since I was six. I know this topic because I spent every ounce of energy I had during my teen years trying to change and I read everything they said on the subject. I know the scriptures because I sought them out, and turned to them daily as a source of strength while I struggled.
I know my Heavenly Father because for 12 years He was the only one I dared talk to, and the only one who would listen.
So I’ll tell you what: I’ll leave as soon as these LDS faithful start standing up for gay members and when those LDS gay members find their voices and feel confident speaking for themselves. I understand that we may disagree on certain doctrinal principles, and on those principles you will always win, because I won’t argue them; but for you to dismiss my experiences, or my questions (the same ones I asked as a gay active LDS youth) simply because I’m excommunicated, you’ll miss out on the opportunity to answer those same questions for the gay youth who read these forums and are looking for understanding and a way to remain faithful to the church.
I ask the questions they are too afraid to ask, bring up the same issues they don’t understand, because I’m not afraid.
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Hi Rubondfan2: If you are asking me my personal opinion, it gets rather complicated. I think it is obvious by the fact that I have a partner in my life who I am hopelessly in love with that I don't particularly believe homosexaul behavior to be immoral in all circumstances, but I try not to discuss that issue because the church is pretty cut and dry on it's current policies in this regard. I will discuss on what doctrine those policies are founded if need be, and try to help others and myself understand a bit better WHY such behavior is not acceptable to the church (although really it comes down to "Because they say so"), but have never DISPUTED the doctrine that homosexual behavior is sinful according to current church policy... at least not intentionally... and probably would have been warned by a moderator if I had.
I will express my opinion if directly asked, as you did, while reemphasizing that my choices are PERSONAL and I have PERSONAL reasons behind them. I have stated that I believe the path I am on is the one God wants ME on personally, but try not to recommend a path to others. That is between them and the Lord
I'm not here to debate the doctrine or lobby for change, only for a greater understanding of what the doctrine actually is. I'm here to defend the gay members of the church who wish to remain faithful, can't speak up, and are feeling belittled by members who don't understand them. I hope that my presence has brought more understanding to the members who will have to deal with gay people in their wards/stakes/life, etc. so that gay people don't continue to be marginalized simply because of their attractions, or even because of their behavior (we are all sinners in need of the atonement. Homosexuality seems to be viewed with a greater measure of disdain than just about any other "sin," and if the membership keeps marginalizing gay people who are doing the best they can but occasionally mess up - just like everyone - then gay people will continue to feel there is no place for them in the church, and I find that sad).
Sometimes I get off that subject because people ask me questions about my experience, and I have committed to myself and to the people here that I will be as open and honest as I can be.
Does that answer your question? If not, feel free to PM me if you wish and we can talk more (or open here is fine too as long as the moderators don't object to resurrecting a dead thread for off topic conversation).
Maybe I should start an "Ask a gay ex-member" section, haha.
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Dash: I realize you are talking about me, so here is my opinion:
I don’t know why crazypotato was banned, and although we had a few “differences of opinion,” I actually really appreciated a lot of his/her posts. I understand that some people may not particularly like the rationalizations gay LDS members use to justify their behavior (and totally understand why LDS members are opposed to gay behavior), but if members of the church don’t understand those rationalizations and, as the missionaries call it, resolve doubts, how can someone expect to be able to help a gay person who wishes to remain faithful to the church with these issues?
Most people in the church don’t even consider what a gay person experiences, the doubts, and the rationalizations that come to mind. If these issues aren’t addressed directly, you can expect almost universally, that these people will end up leaving the church. Is it not worth knowing so that you can better help those who are struggling?
I think it is unfair of you to categorize all gay people who have been excommunicated or who have chosen to leave the church as gay activists without knowing each individual story and struggle.
The only time I personally have countered a GA is with the quote from another GA, or in sharing my personal experience in an attempt to discuss and understand how two seemingly opposing forces can unite and become whole. You’ll also notice I stayed out of the Boyd K Packer discussions rather entirely, for this very reason.
I have tried to be very open and honest with all of my feelings. If that is construed as some sort of “disguise” I have no idea how to be more honest and genuine. Do you have any suggestions for me? Would you prefer I simply close my account and allow members to exaggerate and perpetuate false information about gay people and their families and burn bridges while ignoring the positive strides the church is making and the bridges that are being built?
Frankly, someone MUST stand up for the gay members who are trying to remain faithful. Their stories absolutely must be told – and since many are too scared or unable to speak for themselves, I will do so for them. If I can do so without violating the terms of service of these forums, I see no reason why I shouldn’t.
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Tarnished: Thank you for that thoughtful post. I really really really hate that phrase (love the sinner, hate the sin). I find it is most often used to judge another while trying to make the speaker appear virtuous.
It is very seldom that we run across people who are capable of truly embodying the meaning, let alone who can come near to loving as Christ did.
I'm still alive
in Introduce Yourself
Posted
Hi everyone: Just wanted you all to know that I'm not dead, will still answer emails etc., but recently got a new job that has required all my time (and brain power), and I still haven't quite figured out my routine.
But I wanted to let everyone know I haven't forgotten about you =)