Feathertail

I tried to look it up on archive.org, but library.lds.org's robots.txt file blocks archive.org from indexing it. The talk, "To Young Men Only," came from the October, 1976 session of General Conference. The conference archives from that year are listed, but Packer's talk is not there. I assert that you're railing on me right now.

By "archives," I meant LDS.org's archive of church talks and magazine articles. Which is where I thought one would naturally go to find a church talk or article online. Does it even occur to you to ask why it is not there anymore? I don't know, does accusing me of supporting alcoholism on account of I think masturbating is healthy and natural count?

Beating up on other people doesn't constitute accepting them for who they are. I consider that abusive and do not support it. Because I knew the kids were rude and crude around him, and I didn't think it was right for an adult leader to encourage that. But I decided the Bishop must have known better than me when he called him, after years of lessons where we were taught to sustain our leaders, no matter what. And years of sitting through Ward Business sessions where nobody ever opposed. Would it be "taking things to their logical conslusion" to call child molesters in charge of the Young Men's program the logical conclusion of obeying authority and doubting your conscience? I think I was remembering the parts in Alma where he talked about how justice can't rob mercy, because "If so, God would cease to be God." I guess it left an impression on me, this idea that God wasn't the highest authority; the justice and mercy were greater than he was, and he had to behave in accordance with both in order to maintain his divinity. I don't feel that a god that doesn't is worthy of my worship, either. I'm talking about the way that I felt growing up, knowing where I would go when I died. Feeling ashamed in every General Conference talk about pornography. Trying and trying and failing, and remembering being able to succeed that one time and knowing that it must be my fault that I can't anymore. I tried to get in. I tried so hard. I hated myself that I couldn't. I'm basically saying I acted like you, and did things like gave flippant responses to the idea of kids being taught that they'll be separated from their families for all of eternity because they can't stop touching themselves. Or call it "taking things to their logical conclusion" to burn down straw birds shaped like me, instead of asking me what I believe. You're being mean and nasty. It is rude and uncalled-for.

Yo. This is an important point, everyone. Because they stopped mentioning it, people like HEtheprimate feel comfortable thinking it's not a big deal. Meanwhile, because they mentioned it at one time people like Vort feel comfortable railing at others for doing it. As I said in my last post, though, I think the reaming men get over porn counts as condemning masturbation.

Would that more were like you. I think the prohibition on porn goes along with this, though. Pornography is a masturbation aid, so by preaching against the one they're kind of preaching against the other. It helps that in most people's minds "pornography" means mainstream, dirty, disrespectful stuff, sorta like how "video games" means Duke Nukem Forever to them. So they're okay with getting rid of that stuff. And meanwhile For The Strength of Youth says "If it turns you on, turn it off" and makes their kids feel guilty for so much as looking at girls in bathing suits on their beach trips. Or reading PG-rated furry webcomics, my secret shame while growing up Mormon. And, of course, there's the fact that bishops tend to see shame as a sign of unresolved sin. So the guilt-wracked autistic kid who reads those webcomics must be doing some serious stuff, while friendly, outgoing Brother Molestes becomes the Young Men's leader.

I belonged to your church for nineteen years, not counting the eight after I was born in the covenant. I attended both Seminary and Institute for years. If you feel that I misremembered something, please tell me. In this case, I was referring to the plan of happiness, and the idea that following your god is the best way to be happy in this life or the world to come. Even keeping in mind the concept of "trials," though, I feel it is blaming the victim to tell someone to keep (metaphorically) wringing blood from a stone.

There was the infamous "little factory" talk, which one of my bishops printed out for me. Tellingly, it's been removed from lds.org's archives. I don't recall LDS church leaders ever formally recanting it.

I'm afraid that you're putting words in my beak there. And from my experience, the reality is the other way around. I was at my cruelest when I thought I was following the prophet, as was my abusive father. I let him guide me instead of my conscience, and said terrible things to people that I now feel ashamed of. I'm okay with it if you think it's unhealthy. I'm not okay with raising kids to think they'll be separated from their families in the eternities because they touch themselves. It's one of the cruelest things I can imagine. I wanted to raise my hand in Sacrament meeting to oppose the sustaining of a youth leader the kids called "Brother Molestes" and other crude names. But I was sheltered and autistic, and didn't know what those names meant. And I had been raised in a culture where it was almost unheard of to speak out against callings for any reason. Because of my blind conformity, and being unsure of my own feelings, they didn't find out for years until that man was finally arrested. I'm just glad that he never touched me. Please stop putting words in my beak. I'm sorry, I don't remember which chapter and verse it was that said that god is god because he is good, and not the other way around. At any rate, I don't believe in worshiping any god who would hurt me or someone else. I am okay with doing uncomfortable things to help others. I'm not okay with telling others they're not okay if they aren't like me, and ignoring how miserable they get when they try. If your god's plan is a plan of happiness, there are many people that it's failing, and I feel it's wrong for them to blame themselves.

I am who I am. I can accept that and be happy, or fight against it and be miserable. That's what your church teaches, isn't it? It just has one identity to fit everyone, and the people who don't fit it blame themselves.

I personally feel that obeying authority leads to more problems than following one's conscience and heart. My father held me upside down and beat the crap out of me, scared me to death of my own body, and made me feel like a worthless human being because I was unworthy to give him a Priesthood blessing. If I'm an enemy to your god, it's because your god won't accept who I am. I could make myself stop eating for a few days. Heck, I might even need to at some point. That doesn't mean that it's healthy and normal to do so, or that I should beat myself up if slip. I personally went without masturbating for nine months, and hated myself afterwards. I support love and acceptance of people for who they are. I praise that aspect of Mormon "addiction recovery" therapy. I don't support the idea that natural sexual behavior is an "addiction." As 2 Nephi chapter 2 states, goodness -- the Tao -- precedes your god. I didn't belong to his church because he was god, I belonged to it because I thought that he and it were good. When I saw that (IMO) others' pain and suicides were "the fruits" of his church, is when I had to choose good over its law, and leave.

Answering your earlier question for me here. Jesus said "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine; whether it be of God, or whether I speak for myself." I feel that the LDS church short-circuits this essential teaching. It tells people to ignore their hearts, their consciences, and how miserable LDS teachings make them, because of the peaceful feeling they had at one time that says that the church is true. So they wring blood from a stone trying to make themselves Follow The Prophet, and blame themselves for having more trouble with it than others seem to. I feel that's immoral and unethical, no matter what professionals say. Whether they're doctors or elite Mormon clergy.

When you're being shamed for something that's a natural part of yourself, that you can't help. Because I said positive things about "addiction recovery" counseling, and I don't want to give people the wrong impression that I support it. I meant "outlaw" in the broad sense of "deem unacceptable." I.e. to the degree that I, as an autistic person, can't withdraw from a triggering situation in order to prevent a meltdown -- whether because of laws or societal pressures -- I'm not capable of functioning in society.

That depends on how others treat you after you admit it. The supportive atmosphere of the "addiction" counseling is the most important part of it. Meanwhile, most people know better than to go up and mention in their testimonies that they're gay / lesbian / bisexual, but the few times I've heard of them actually being accepted after they do so are heartwarming. I sort of experienced that with my autism post. I think if more people knew they'd be accepted that way, you'd find out a lot about your fellow ward members. I'd also like to reiterate that I consider masturbation to be healthy behavior for most people, and no more of a problem or an addiction than an autistic's need to self-stimulate (flap hands, rock back and forth, rub fingers over objects). It may be unsettling for people who don't feel that need, but it's necessary for those that do. Outlawing it is the same as outlawing the people who need it, or who can't hide that they need it. IMO.

I'm not going to try to talk you out of that, because in many ways I think that the people in those programs have a healthier attitude than the rest of the church population does. You're taught to love and accept yourself despite your "addiction," and to not see it as a life-shattering failure if you give in again. I've seen how people draw closer to their god and his love that way, and how it gives them the strength to overcome the guilt and shame taught by their parents and other church leaders. For me, the guilt and shame are the biggest things to overcome, not what I consider to be natural and healthy sexual behaviors. (And for those of you playing at home, the two are linked, because guilt and shame fuel addictive behaviors. So even if your goal is to stop every Mormon teen and husband from masturbating, you're defeating the purpose by shaming them.) Insofar as your program has helped you with that, I'm okay with it.

So am I. *hug*