Feathertail

I tried to look it up on archive.org, but library.lds.org's robots.txt file blocks archive.org from indexing it. The talk, "To Young Men Only," came from the October, 1976 session of General Conference. The conference archives from that year are listed, but Packer's talk is not there. I assert that you're railing on me right now.

By "archives," I meant LDS.org's archive of church talks and magazine articles. Which is where I thought one would naturally go to find a church talk or article online. Does it even occur to you to ask why it is not there anymore? I don't know, does accusing me of supporting alcoholism on account of I think masturbating is healthy and natural count?

Beating up on other people doesn't constitute accepting them for who they are. I consider that abusive and do not support it. Because I knew the kids were rude and crude around him, and I didn't think it was right for an adult leader to encourage that. But I decided the Bishop must have known better than me when he called him, after years of lessons where we were taught to sustain our leaders, no matter what. And years of sitting through Ward Business sessions where nobody ever opposed. Would it be "taking things to their logical conslusion" to call child molesters in charge of the Young Men's program the logical conclusion of obeying authority and doubting your conscience? I think I was remembering the parts in Alma where he talked about how justice can't rob mercy, because "If so, God would cease to be God." I guess it left an impression on me, this idea that God wasn't the highest authority; the justice and mercy were greater than he was, and he had to behave in accordance with both in order to maintain his divinity. I don't feel that a god that doesn't is worthy of my worship, either. I'm talking about the way that I felt growing up, knowing where I would go when I died. Feeling ashamed in every General Conference talk about pornography. Trying and trying and failing, and remembering being able to succeed that one time and knowing that it must be my fault that I can't anymore. I tried to get in. I tried so hard. I hated myself that I couldn't. I'm basically saying I acted like you, and did things like gave flippant responses to the idea of kids being taught that they'll be separated from their families for all of eternity because they can't stop touching themselves. Or call it "taking things to their logical conclusion" to burn down straw birds shaped like me, instead of asking me what I believe. You're being mean and nasty. It is rude and uncalled-for.

Yo. This is an important point, everyone. Because they stopped mentioning it, people like HEtheprimate feel comfortable thinking it's not a big deal. Meanwhile, because they mentioned it at one time people like Vort feel comfortable railing at others for doing it. As I said in my last post, though, I think the reaming men get over porn counts as condemning masturbation.

Would that more were like you. I think the prohibition on porn goes along with this, though. Pornography is a masturbation aid, so by preaching against the one they're kind of preaching against the other. It helps that in most people's minds "pornography" means mainstream, dirty, disrespectful stuff, sorta like how "video games" means Duke Nukem Forever to them. So they're okay with getting rid of that stuff. And meanwhile For The Strength of Youth says "If it turns you on, turn it off" and makes their kids feel guilty for so much as looking at girls in bathing suits on their beach trips. Or reading PG-rated furry webcomics, my secret shame while growing up Mormon. And, of course, there's the fact that bishops tend to see shame as a sign of unresolved sin. So the guilt-wracked autistic kid who reads those webcomics must be doing some serious stuff, while friendly, outgoing Brother Molestes becomes the Young Men's leader.

I belonged to your church for nineteen years, not counting the eight after I was born in the covenant. I attended both Seminary and Institute for years. If you feel that I misremembered something, please tell me. In this case, I was referring to the plan of happiness, and the idea that following your god is the best way to be happy in this life or the world to come. Even keeping in mind the concept of "trials," though, I feel it is blaming the victim to tell someone to keep (metaphorically) wringing blood from a stone.

There was the infamous "little factory" talk, which one of my bishops printed out for me. Tellingly, it's been removed from lds.org's archives. I don't recall LDS church leaders ever formally recanting it.

I'm afraid that you're putting words in my beak there. And from my experience, the reality is the other way around. I was at my cruelest when I thought I was following the prophet, as was my abusive father. I let him guide me instead of my conscience, and said terrible things to people that I now feel ashamed of. I'm okay with it if you think it's unhealthy. I'm not okay with raising kids to think they'll be separated from their families in the eternities because they touch themselves. It's one of the cruelest things I can imagine. I wanted to raise my hand in Sacrament meeting to oppose the sustaining of a youth leader the kids called "Brother Molestes" and other crude names. But I was sheltered and autistic, and didn't know what those names meant. And I had been raised in a culture where it was almost unheard of to speak out against callings for any reason. Because of my blind conformity, and being unsure of my own feelings, they didn't find out for years until that man was finally arrested. I'm just glad that he never touched me. Please stop putting words in my beak. I'm sorry, I don't remember which chapter and verse it was that said that god is god because he is good, and not the other way around. At any rate, I don't believe in worshiping any god who would hurt me or someone else. I am okay with doing uncomfortable things to help others. I'm not okay with telling others they're not okay if they aren't like me, and ignoring how miserable they get when they try. If your god's plan is a plan of happiness, there are many people that it's failing, and I feel it's wrong for them to blame themselves.

I am who I am. I can accept that and be happy, or fight against it and be miserable. That's what your church teaches, isn't it? It just has one identity to fit everyone, and the people who don't fit it blame themselves.

I personally feel that obeying authority leads to more problems than following one's conscience and heart. My father held me upside down and beat the crap out of me, scared me to death of my own body, and made me feel like a worthless human being because I was unworthy to give him a Priesthood blessing. If I'm an enemy to your god, it's because your god won't accept who I am. I could make myself stop eating for a few days. Heck, I might even need to at some point. That doesn't mean that it's healthy and normal to do so, or that I should beat myself up if slip. I personally went without masturbating for nine months, and hated myself afterwards. I support love and acceptance of people for who they are. I praise that aspect of Mormon "addiction recovery" therapy. I don't support the idea that natural sexual behavior is an "addiction." As 2 Nephi chapter 2 states, goodness -- the Tao -- precedes your god. I didn't belong to his church because he was god, I belonged to it because I thought that he and it were good. When I saw that (IMO) others' pain and suicides were "the fruits" of his church, is when I had to choose good over its law, and leave.

Answering your earlier question for me here. Jesus said "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine; whether it be of God, or whether I speak for myself." I feel that the LDS church short-circuits this essential teaching. It tells people to ignore their hearts, their consciences, and how miserable LDS teachings make them, because of the peaceful feeling they had at one time that says that the church is true. So they wring blood from a stone trying to make themselves Follow The Prophet, and blame themselves for having more trouble with it than others seem to. I feel that's immoral and unethical, no matter what professionals say. Whether they're doctors or elite Mormon clergy.

When you're being shamed for something that's a natural part of yourself, that you can't help. Because I said positive things about "addiction recovery" counseling, and I don't want to give people the wrong impression that I support it. I meant "outlaw" in the broad sense of "deem unacceptable." I.e. to the degree that I, as an autistic person, can't withdraw from a triggering situation in order to prevent a meltdown -- whether because of laws or societal pressures -- I'm not capable of functioning in society.

That depends on how others treat you after you admit it. The supportive atmosphere of the "addiction" counseling is the most important part of it. Meanwhile, most people know better than to go up and mention in their testimonies that they're gay / lesbian / bisexual, but the few times I've heard of them actually being accepted after they do so are heartwarming. I sort of experienced that with my autism post. I think if more people knew they'd be accepted that way, you'd find out a lot about your fellow ward members. I'd also like to reiterate that I consider masturbation to be healthy behavior for most people, and no more of a problem or an addiction than an autistic's need to self-stimulate (flap hands, rock back and forth, rub fingers over objects). It may be unsettling for people who don't feel that need, but it's necessary for those that do. Outlawing it is the same as outlawing the people who need it, or who can't hide that they need it. IMO.

I'm not going to try to talk you out of that, because in many ways I think that the people in those programs have a healthier attitude than the rest of the church population does. You're taught to love and accept yourself despite your "addiction," and to not see it as a life-shattering failure if you give in again. I've seen how people draw closer to their god and his love that way, and how it gives them the strength to overcome the guilt and shame taught by their parents and other church leaders. For me, the guilt and shame are the biggest things to overcome, not what I consider to be natural and healthy sexual behaviors. (And for those of you playing at home, the two are linked, because guilt and shame fuel addictive behaviors. So even if your goal is to stop every Mormon teen and husband from masturbating, you're defeating the purpose by shaming them.) Insofar as your program has helped you with that, I'm okay with it.

So am I. *hug*

I overcame masturbation for nine months, after being threatened with church discipline for it. The day that I gave in again was heartbreaking, and I cried myself to sleep hearing Saturday's Warrior in my head. "Didn't we love him? Didn't we raise him well ... " Growing up, I always thought I was the only one with this problem. Even when the kids around me talked about "hot" girls, or made dirty jokes, it just amazed me that they could somehow do that without masturbating. They were advancing in the Priesthood, weren't they? What were they doing, lying about it? It was unthinkable. I tried so hard over the years, but I didn't try hard enough. It was my fault, as always. God was perfect, so if I was still doing this it was because of me. I hated myself, I hated the guilt my abusive father gave me, and I hated that I was the odd one out, who didn't get to go on his mission or go to the temple at all. Who wouldn't be able to marry for eternity, and who would just give in again after less than a year if he somehow became clean. I imagined my wife crying and telling the bishop about my addiction, and hating myself the entire rest of my life. I nearly killed myself. I finally decided to just accept things the way they were, and try to be the best person I could no matter what. If I couldn't overcome this, then I couldn't overcome this, and I'd still love and help other people. I felt better about myself afterwards. Last year I realized that I wasn't the problem. But the guilt lingers on, just like the emotional scars from my father's abuse. I hope someday I'll be free of both.

If you have to ask, then you have no idea why gaming is so important to some people. Judging by the rest of your post, it sounds like you aren't interested in finding out. To be blunt, you could make the same "selfishness" argument about absolutely anything -- the fact that you're so concerned with your temple rites instead of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked or giving shelter to the homeless, for instance. The only reason to waste so many words on gaming is because the idea that other people enjoy it doesn't sit well with you. If you're hoping to reach those people, there are better ways, starting with understanding and not judging them.

-- My Secret Gay Agenda - Soy Made Me Gay

You could start by asking them why these games, and their friends, are so important to them. And then actually listening. I personally spent a few years doing almost nothing but playing Final Fantasy XI Online. I logged not just hours, but over a hundred days of play time. Even though it was an online game, I played it mostly by myself, and when I wasn't playing it I was spending hours and hours thinking about what I wanted to do next in the game. My parents didn't understand why it was so important to me, which isn't surprising, considering. I tried to explain that I knew what they wanted me to do, and that I was supposed to go on a mission and go to college and get a job and get married, but none of it seemed real to me. I couldn't make myself care about it; just feel rotten and inadequate that I couldn't. And be horribly aware that my life was passing me by. The way I'm describing it, you'd think that that game was a terrible addiction, that consumed my life and made me unhappy. Which is the problem you're seeing in the people you're trying to reach. The "addiction" wasn't the cause, though. It was a symptom of my malaise. I latched onto the one thing I found that I could understand, and get excited about, and find others that I could discuss it with. And frankly, I rocked at that game. The better I did at it, the more I started to care about my "real" life. FFXI is extremely realistic. After struggling to fit everything in my "Mog House," I started paring down my possessions and uncluttering IRL. I had to learn time management to make the Selbina / Mhaura Ferry. Working together with other real people who were playing the game, overcoming difficult obstacles together -- even becoming a leader -- helped me feel confident and assured. I made friends and created stories, that helped keep me going through a very difficult time in my life. I learned that I had control over my life, and started to use it. When I stopped playing, it was because I'd found something that was better than playing that game. While on the web I learned about veganism, progressive politics, ethical shopping and how our stuff actually gets made. I felt sick at first, then realized I had to do something about it. Now I write articles for Yahoo News, and stories for people who need them, including one person who told me I saved his life. The surprising thing to me is that when I found something that I cared about, all of a sudden the people who'd kept trying to get me to stop playing those games were (it seemed) trying to tell me to go back to them. I had to argue why I felt that my views were in accordance with church teachings. In the end I just had to be myself, even though it didn't look anything like the person they wanted me to be. Are you willing to let those kids do that? Because if not, you're going to be really frustrated, I'll wager. Careful with the SEO, by the way. Google just recently handed the smackdown to content farms, and they don't like it when people game their algorithms.

I always disliked being asked to sit in the first few rows by the pulpit. My last ward was a smaller one outside of Utah, and people would naturally spread out for Priesthood meeting, until the bishop told everyone to come up. I was really uncomfortable not having the personal space to myself, and I sometimes just waited outside. Another peeve would be being told that I need to be in the meetings when I'm not. Anything where someone in a position of authority thought something I was doing was improper, when it wasn't hurting anyone. I always enjoyed singing the hymns, but my brother didn't, and I wonder if being pushed to do so isn't part of the reason he preferred to sit out in the foyer too.

Are they the same people who think that you shouldn't be spending your time with "digital distractions," even when they mean connecting with other people who value the things that you do? Maybe you should ask what exactly they find disrespectful about placing his likeness someplace where you'll see it often. Or if they're close to you, ask if you could put their picture there instead and see how they feel about that. I've been using Ubuntu for a few years now, but I'm not sure how to help you with the actual subject of your post.

I'm pretty sure she means genealogical records, or something related to them! It's a big thing in Mormon culture; there may be a Family History Library at your local ward or branch building.

The problem is that the people who need that sort of counsel don't care, and the people who care do not need it. It afflicts the afflicted and comforts the comfortable, instead of the other way around. Mrsclaus, whatever you decide to do, please post back here to say how it went. I hope you can let go of your guilt very soon.

Bishops vary from ward to ward. You might have an understanding bishop, who will tell you it's nothing to worry about and approve you to go on your mission; I'm given to understand that a lot of missionaries masturbate. On the other hand, you might have one who will try to put the fear of God into you. I had one who threatened me with church discipline for masturbating. I think part of it is how guilty you look. When I was sixteen, my LDS father told me I was damned (to the Telestial Kingdom) because I masturbated. I felt awful and broken inside -- I didn't know shame and guilt only make addictive behaviors worse. So when I went to talk with my bishops, they saw how ashamed I was and probably thought I was doing some heavy pornography. (Does PG-rated furry art count?) I'm not LDS anymore, and I personally feel that what I was put through by my father and some of my church leaders was abusive. I don't feel that it's wrong to masturbate, and I hope that you won't torture yourself over it like I did. Maybe just tell your bishop what you told us here -- that you don't feel that you have a problem with it. You shouldn't be kept back just for being more honest than others.

TruthSeeker -- I may be in the minority for saying this, but I feel that no one has the right to judge you. I'd say to listen to your heart, and if it tells you he's being unfair (and your wife agrees) then maybe he is. I would go someplace else to find help, like one of the places that PrisonChaplain mentioned, so this man wouldn't have any power over me and my family. Then I would find a more supportive congregation to worship with.