Feathertail
-
Posts
78 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by Feathertail
-
-
Yo yourself. This demonstrates only that the talk is not found on LDS.org. It does not demonstrate your assertion, that it has been removed from the archives.
By "archives," I meant LDS.org's archive of church talks and magazine articles. Which is where I thought one would naturally go to find a church talk or article online. Does it even occur to you to ask why it is not there anymore?
Indeed, this is an important point, everyone. Feathertail has made yet another baseless and false charge.
Feathertail, demonstrate where I have ever railed on anyone over masturbating.
I don't know, does accusing me of supporting alcoholism on account of I think masturbating is healthy and natural count?
-
Not really. You are the one claiming that God must accept us for "who we are". I was simply taking that position to its logical conclusion.
Beating up on other people doesn't constitute accepting them for who they are. I consider that abusive and do not support it.
Then why did you want to oppose him?
Because I knew the kids were rude and crude around him, and I didn't think it was right for an adult leader to encourage that. But I decided the Bishop must have known better than me when he called him, after years of lessons where we were taught to sustain our leaders, no matter what. And years of sitting through Ward Business sessions where nobody ever opposed.
You mean, stop taking your utterances to their logical conclusion?
Would it be "taking things to their logical conslusion" to call child molesters in charge of the Young Men's program the logical conclusion of obeying authority and doubting your conscience?
So let me understand this. You were LDS until the age of 27, yet you claim that the Book of Mormon teaches something that it does not teach, but you just can't seem to recall exactly where it says that?
I think I was remembering the parts in Alma where he talked about how justice can't rob mercy, because "If so, God would cease to be God." I guess it left an impression on me, this idea that God wasn't the highest authority; the justice and mercy were greater than he was, and he had to behave in accordance with both in order to maintain his divinity.
I don't feel that a god that doesn't is worthy of my worship, either.
Who's putting words in someone's "beak" now, Feathertail?
I'm talking about the way that I felt growing up, knowing where I would go when I died. Feeling ashamed in every General Conference talk about pornography. Trying and trying and failing, and remembering being able to succeed that one time and knowing that it must be my fault that I can't anymore.
When the rescue boat comes but people refuse to get on board, whose fault is it? "That rescue boat is FALSE! It's too much work to have to cross over to it! What a bunch of hooey!"
Okay, whatever.
I tried to get in. I tried so hard. I hated myself that I couldn't.
I see. So your cruelty and ill treatment of others is...the Church's fault. Right?
I'm basically saying I acted like you, and did things like gave flippant responses to the idea of kids being taught that they'll be separated from their families for all of eternity because they can't stop touching themselves. Or call it "taking things to their logical conclusion" to burn down straw birds shaped like me, instead of asking me what I believe.
You're being mean and nasty. It is rude and uncalled-for.
-
I think you are telling a falsehood. Please demonstrate that it has been removed from the archives.
How so? Because it's not mentioned at every session of General Conference?
This is an important point, everyone. Because they stopped mentioning it, people like HEtheprimate feel comfortable thinking it's not a big deal. Meanwhile, because they mentioned it at one time people like Vort feel comfortable railing at others for doing it.
As I said in my last post, though, I think the reaming men get over porn counts as condemning masturbation.
-
Ach, how could I have forgotten!
Still, there is a difference between a General Authority talk/publication and official church doctrine. And like you said, the Church seems to be quietly letting it fall by the wayside.There's also the guide to overcoming masturbation often attributed to Mark E. Peterson, though the authorship is in question, and as far as I know the Church has never published that one. For a discussion, see the Mormon Expression podcast: Episode 132: Mark E. Petersen’s Steps in Overcoming Masturbation
I'm an active member, but it seems to me there are far more important things to focus on than whether or not Brother So-and-So is "arguing with Henry Longfellow."
Would that more were like you.
I think the prohibition on porn goes along with this, though. Pornography is a masturbation aid, so by preaching against the one they're kind of preaching against the other. It helps that in most people's minds "pornography" means mainstream, dirty, disrespectful stuff, sorta like how "video games" means Duke Nukem Forever to them.
So they're okay with getting rid of that stuff. And meanwhile For The Strength of Youth says "If it turns you on, turn it off" and makes their kids feel guilty for so much as looking at girls in bathing suits on their beach trips. Or reading PG-rated furry webcomics, my secret shame while growing up Mormon.
And, of course, there's the fact that bishops tend to see shame as a sign of unresolved sin. So the guilt-wracked autistic kid who reads those webcomics must be doing some serious stuff, while friendly, outgoing Brother Molestes becomes the Young Men's leader.
-
Not that I'm aware of.
I do find it curious how much you think you know about "my church", when in reality you seem to have a tenuous grasp (at best) on the fundamentals of my Church's teachings.
I belonged to your church for nineteen years, not counting the eight after I was born in the covenant. I attended both Seminary and Institute for years. If you feel that I misremembered something, please tell me.
In this case, I was referring to the plan of happiness, and the idea that following your god is the best way to be happy in this life or the world to come. Even keeping in mind the concept of "trials," though, I feel it is blaming the victim to tell someone to keep (metaphorically) wringing blood from a stone.
-
I'll just throw in that the Church's position on the matter is not exactly clear, let alone set in stone. I don't recall ever seeing an official statement from the Church about masturbation, and different bishops seem to have different opinions on the matter. Some think it's a sin and renders a person unworthy to partake of the sacrament, go to the temple, etc. Others think it's a sin, but not very serious. Yet other bishops don't think it's a sin at all, and only problematic if it starts disrupting the person's life.
I put this in the same category as claiming that Coca Cola is against the Word of Wisdom. Many people claim it is, but that's not what the Church actually says.
There was the infamous "little factory" talk, which one of my bishops printed out for me. Tellingly, it's been removed from lds.org's archives. I don't recall LDS church leaders ever formally recanting it.
-
So that's the way we should think, huh? "Look, God, I'm a wifebeating rapist who enjoys torturing small animals. If I'm an enemy to you, it's because <sob> YOU JUST WON'T ACCEPT ME FOR WHO I AM!!!"
Nah. I don't think so.
I'm afraid that you're putting words in my beak there. And from my experience, the reality is the other way around. I was at my cruelest when I thought I was following the prophet, as was my abusive father. I let him guide me instead of my conscience, and said terrible things to people that I now feel ashamed of.
And therefore...what? Masturbation is healthy because Feathertail likes it?
I'm okay with it if you think it's unhealthy. I'm not okay with raising kids to think they'll be separated from their families in the eternities because they touch themselves. It's one of the cruelest things I can imagine.
Awesome. Wifebeaters and child molesters, rejoice! Feathertail loves you!
I wanted to raise my hand in Sacrament meeting to oppose the sustaining of a youth leader the kids called "Brother Molestes" and other crude names. But I was sheltered and autistic, and didn't know what those names meant. And I had been raised in a culture where it was almost unheard of to speak out against callings for any reason.
Because of my blind conformity, and being unsure of my own feelings, they didn't find out for years until that man was finally arrested. I'm just glad that he never touched me.
How is your opinion on addiction relevant? Shall we also believe you when you tell us that you don't believe alcoholism is an addiction?
Please stop putting words in my beak.
2 Nephi 2 says no such thing.
I'm sorry, I don't remember which chapter and verse it was that said that god is god because he is good, and not the other way around. At any rate, I don't believe in worshiping any god who would hurt me or someone else.
Exactly. God is God only so long as he doesn't require us to do something that might be uncomfortable. Everyone knows that God will never tell us to do something we find painful. And growth is painful. What kind of cruel God might require us to grow?!
I am okay with doing uncomfortable things to help others. I'm not okay with telling others they're not okay if they aren't like me, and ignoring how miserable they get when they try. If your god's plan is a plan of happiness, there are many people that it's failing, and I feel it's wrong for them to blame themselves.
-
So, you are a law unto yourself, unwilling to be bound by those called to lead?
I am who I am. I can accept that and be happy, or fight against it and be miserable. That's what your church teaches, isn't it? It just has one identity to fit everyone, and the people who don't fit it blame themselves.
-
Lots of things are a natural part of ourselves, including taking things that don't belong to us and beating the crap out of our children because they bother us. However, the Book of Mormon teaches us that the natural man is an enemy to God, so we seek to control our natural impulses.
I personally feel that obeying authority leads to more problems than following one's conscience and heart. My father held me upside down and beat the crap out of me, scared me to death of my own body, and made me feel like a worthless human being because I was unworthy to give him a Priesthood blessing.
If I'm an enemy to your god, it's because your god won't accept who I am.
Are you suggesting that people are unable to control masturbating? If so, how do explain the people on this very discussion board who have testified that they have indeed learned to control and eliminate masturbation, demonstrating that you can, indeed, "help it"?
I could make myself stop eating for a few days. Heck, I might even need to at some point. That doesn't mean that it's healthy and normal to do so, or that I should beat myself up if slip. I personally went without masturbating for nine months, and hated myself afterwards.
That you don't support addiction recovery? Or that you don't support masturbation? Or that you don't support those who don't support masturbation?
I support love and acceptance of people for who they are. I praise that aspect of Mormon "addiction recovery" therapy. I don't support the idea that natural sexual behavior is an "addiction."
Are you the lawgiver? If not, how do you suppose that your opinion might override the word of the Lawgiver?
As 2 Nephi chapter 2 states, goodness -- the Tao -- precedes your god. I didn't belong to his church because he was god, I belonged to it because I thought that he and it were good. When I saw that (IMO) others' pain and suicides were "the fruits" of his church, is when I had to choose good over its law, and leave.
-
Answering your earlier question for me here.I consider Heavenly Father the ultimate authority on what is healthy. Since "normal" doesn't equate to moral or ethical, the professionals can have that one.
Jesus said "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine; whether it be of God, or whether I speak for myself." I feel that the LDS church short-circuits this essential teaching. It tells people to ignore their hearts, their consciences, and how miserable LDS teachings make them, because of the peaceful feeling they had at one time that says that the church is true. So they wring blood from a stone trying to make themselves Follow The Prophet, and blame themselves for having more trouble with it than others seem to.
I feel that's immoral and unethical, no matter what professionals say. Whether they're doctors or elite Mormon clergy.
-
In what sense are guilt and shame unnatural behaviors?
When you're being shamed for something that's a natural part of yourself, that you can't help.
Why would you like to reiterate this?
Because I said positive things about "addiction recovery" counseling, and I don't want to give people the wrong impression that I support it.
Has someone here been talking about making private masturbation an illegal activity?
I meant "outlaw" in the broad sense of "deem unacceptable." I.e. to the degree that I, as an autistic person, can't withdraw from a triggering situation in order to prevent a meltdown -- whether because of laws or societal pressures -- I'm not capable of functioning in society.
-
Once you admit you have a problem, bring it out into the open so it's no longer a secret, and work towards overcoming it, there is no guilt and shame left. :)
That depends on how others treat you after you admit it. The supportive atmosphere of the "addiction" counseling is the most important part of it. Meanwhile, most people know better than to go up and mention in their testimonies that they're gay / lesbian / bisexual, but the few times I've heard of them actually being accepted after they do so are heartwarming. I sort of experienced that with my autism post.
I think if more people knew they'd be accepted that way, you'd find out a lot about your fellow ward members.
I'd also like to reiterate that I consider masturbation to be healthy behavior for most people, and no more of a problem or an addiction than an autistic's need to self-stimulate (flap hands, rock back and forth, rub fingers over objects). It may be unsettling for people who don't feel that need, but it's necessary for those that do. Outlawing it is the same as outlawing the people who need it, or who can't hide that they need it. IMO.
-
Feathertail,
I'm sorry you've had such a rough time. Masturbation is actually very, very common. But it is also something that can be overcome.
I suppose I was fortunate, because the first time I confessed to a bishop, as a teenager, he told me "There are 2 kinds of boys - those that masturbate, and those that lie." While that may not be completely accurate, even Spencer W. Kimball called it a "common indiscretion."
The way that these problems are treated in the church has changed in recent years. Leaders are now trained to be more sensitive and helpful when people come to them about pornography and masturbation.
Besides meeting regularly with my bishop, something that has helped me is to attend the weekly Addiction Recovery Program meetings run by LDS Family Services. They have special meetings in many areas for those involved in pornography, masturbation, and other sexual addictions. It is helpful to be able to meet with others that have common problems and share hope and talk about how we can be healed through the atonement. You can find out more here: Addiction Recovery Program
I'm not going to try to talk you out of that, because in many ways I think that the people in those programs have a healthier attitude than the rest of the church population does. You're taught to love and accept yourself despite your "addiction," and to not see it as a life-shattering failure if you give in again. I've seen how people draw closer to their god and his love that way, and how it gives them the strength to overcome the guilt and shame taught by their parents and other church leaders.
For me, the guilt and shame are the biggest things to overcome, not what I consider to be natural and healthy sexual behaviors. (And for those of you playing at home, the two are linked, because guilt and shame fuel addictive behaviors. So even if your goal is to stop every Mormon teen and husband from masturbating, you're defeating the purpose by shaming them.) Insofar as your program has helped you with that, I'm okay with it.
-
Feathertail,
I'm sorry about your trials. (((HUGS)))
So am I. *hug*
-
I overcame masturbation for nine months, after being threatened with church discipline for it. The day that I gave in again was heartbreaking, and I cried myself to sleep hearing Saturday's Warrior in my head. "Didn't we love him? Didn't we raise him well ... "
Growing up, I always thought I was the only one with this problem. Even when the kids around me talked about "hot" girls, or made dirty jokes, it just amazed me that they could somehow do that without masturbating. They were advancing in the Priesthood, weren't they? What were they doing, lying about it? It was unthinkable.
I tried so hard over the years, but I didn't try hard enough. It was my fault, as always. God was perfect, so if I was still doing this it was because of me. I hated myself, I hated the guilt my abusive father gave me, and I hated that I was the odd one out, who didn't get to go on his mission or go to the temple at all. Who wouldn't be able to marry for eternity, and who would just give in again after less than a year if he somehow became clean. I imagined my wife crying and telling the bishop about my addiction, and hating myself the entire rest of my life. I nearly killed myself.
I finally decided to just accept things the way they were, and try to be the best person I could no matter what. If I couldn't overcome this, then I couldn't overcome this, and I'd still love and help other people. I felt better about myself afterwards.
Last year I realized that I wasn't the problem. But the guilt lingers on, just like the emotional scars from my father's abuse. I hope someday I'll be free of both.
-
I was doing some reading on LDS history and came across a few things I didn't know before. I was reading about Joseph Smith's marriages and wives and saw that he married 11 women who were already married, often without the husbands consent. He also married 8 girls under the age of 18? Is this common knowledge, and how does the church justify him marrying women and girls who were already married?
It's not, and the LDS church doesn't!
It doesn't say a whole lot about it at all, actually, leaving the apologists to fill in the blanks as usual. Just in case someone like you finds out somewhere else and has his/her faith shaken. You may or may not find their arguments very compelling. I personally had my faith shaken just reading The Work and the Glory where it talked about plural marriage, and they didn't even bring up his 14-year-old and already-married wives IIRC.
-
The best replacement for video games is temple work. The body is a temple... at least according to Jesus... right? Genealogy and temple attendance can take up all the time and $ that you otherwise give to TV, movies, sports, the internet, and everything else that you watch on a screen. So why not give it to God rather than WoW?
If you have to ask, then you have no idea why gaming is so important to some people. Judging by the rest of your post, it sounds like you aren't interested in finding out.
To be blunt, you could make the same "selfishness" argument about absolutely anything -- the fact that you're so concerned with your temple rites instead of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked or giving shelter to the homeless, for instance. The only reason to waste so many words on gaming is because the idea that other people enjoy it doesn't sit well with you. If you're hoping to reach those people, there are better ways, starting with understanding and not judging them.
-
If you want to stand up for your beliefs as the prophet has asked, that is commendable. It truly is. More often than not, the words of our prophet fall on deaf ears. But I make a request: please, check your motives first.
I want to protect children from the harmful influence that homosexuality can have, you say. Okay, but remember that I am gay, too. Your brother, your son, your friend. Ah, but “he is different”. No, I am not. I am just as gay as the next queer. I didn’t ask to be gay just like you didn’t ask to be straight, but know that I am no more ashamed of my sexuality than you are. If gays are harmful influence to your children, then so am I. Do you really feel the need to protect your family against me?
I want to protect traditional marriage, you say. Okay, but know what that truly means. You aren’t protecting it from people who aren’t taking the commitment seriously – no less than you did, anyway. Our feelings for the people we love run just as deeply as yours and we want to create families with them just as much as you did.
-
You could start by asking them why these games, and their friends, are so important to them. And then actually listening.
I personally spent a few years doing almost nothing but playing Final Fantasy XI Online. I logged not just hours, but over a hundred days of play time. Even though it was an online game, I played it mostly by myself, and when I wasn't playing it I was spending hours and hours thinking about what I wanted to do next in the game.
My parents didn't understand why it was so important to me, which isn't surprising, considering. I tried to explain that I knew what they wanted me to do, and that I was supposed to go on a mission and go to college and get a job and get married, but none of it seemed real to me. I couldn't make myself care about it; just feel rotten and inadequate that I couldn't. And be horribly aware that my life was passing me by.
The way I'm describing it, you'd think that that game was a terrible addiction, that consumed my life and made me unhappy. Which is the problem you're seeing in the people you're trying to reach. The "addiction" wasn't the cause, though. It was a symptom of my malaise. I latched onto the one thing I found that I could understand, and get excited about, and find others that I could discuss it with. And frankly, I rocked at that game.
The better I did at it, the more I started to care about my "real" life. FFXI is extremely realistic. After struggling to fit everything in my "Mog House," I started paring down my possessions and uncluttering IRL. I had to learn time management to make the Selbina / Mhaura Ferry. Working together with other real people who were playing the game, overcoming difficult obstacles together -- even becoming a leader -- helped me feel confident and assured. I made friends and created stories, that helped keep me going through a very difficult time in my life. I learned that I had control over my life, and started to use it.
When I stopped playing, it was because I'd found something that was better than playing that game. While on the web I learned about veganism, progressive politics, ethical shopping and how our stuff actually gets made. I felt sick at first, then realized I had to do something about it. Now I write articles for Yahoo News, and stories for people who need them, including one person who told me I saved his life.
The surprising thing to me is that when I found something that I cared about, all of a sudden the people who'd kept trying to get me to stop playing those games were (it seemed) trying to tell me to go back to them. I had to argue why I felt that my views were in accordance with church teachings. In the end I just had to be myself, even though it didn't look anything like the person they wanted me to be.
Are you willing to let those kids do that? Because if not, you're going to be really frustrated, I'll wager.
Careful with the SEO, by the way. Google just recently handed the smackdown to content farms, and they don't like it when people game their algorithms.
-
I always disliked being asked to sit in the first few rows by the pulpit. My last ward was a smaller one outside of Utah, and people would naturally spread out for Priesthood meeting, until the bishop told everyone to come up. I was really uncomfortable not having the personal space to myself, and I sometimes just waited outside.
Another peeve would be being told that I need to be in the meetings when I'm not. Anything where someone in a position of authority thought something I was doing was improper, when it wasn't hurting anyone. I always enjoyed singing the hymns, but my brother didn't, and I wonder if being pushed to do so isn't part of the reason he preferred to sit out in the foyer too.
-
By the way, some people think it is disrespectful to put a picture of the Lord on a computer screen.
Are they the same people who think that you shouldn't be spending your time with "digital distractions," even when they mean connecting with other people who value the things that you do? Maybe you should ask what exactly they find disrespectful about placing his likeness someplace where you'll see it often. Or if they're close to you, ask if you could put their picture there instead and see how they feel about that.
I've been using Ubuntu for a few years now, but I'm not sure how to help you with the actual subject of your post.
-
OK, apparently indexing means something different to LDS than it does in my field of LIS. You aren't talking about indexing books, are you GrammaJules? What is indexing in this context?
I'm pretty sure she means genealogical records, or something related to them! It's a big thing in Mormon culture; there may be a Family History Library at your local ward or branch building.
-
I wouldn't mind taking my girlfriend's surname, if/when we got married. I love her, and the idea makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.
It'd probably cause trouble with our families, though.
-
Wise counsel I once received was that if you are unsure whether or not it is necessary to tell the bishop, it probably is necessary.
The problem is that the people who need that sort of counsel don't care, and the people who care do not need it. It afflicts the afflicted and comforts the comfortable, instead of the other way around.
Mrsclaus, whatever you decide to do, please post back here to say how it went. I hope you can let go of your guilt very soon.
Seriousness of masturbation?
in Advice Board
Posted
I tried to look it up on archive.org, but library.lds.org's robots.txt file blocks archive.org from indexing it.
The talk, "To Young Men Only," came from the October, 1976 session of General Conference. The conference archives from that year are listed, but Packer's talk is not there.
I assert that you're railing on me right now.