billy2

I'm sorry, I was still waiting for a follow up to your denying that my claim of doctrine "not being internally consistent and self-contradictory." Something was said about my lack of research, so exact scriptures and doctrines were referenced. Can you please explain the inconsistencies mentioned, then perhaps we can move on.

Perhaps you are correct...

Research? As in, you are looking for exact references? Okay... Is this better? The Book of Mormon There is only one God Mosiah 15:1,5; Alma 11:28; 2 Nephi 31:21. The Trinity is one God Alma 11:44; Mosiah 15:5; 2 Nephi 31:21. God is unchanging Mormon 9:9,19; Moroni 8:18; Alma 41:8; 3 Nephi 24:6. God is spirit Alma 18:24,28; 22:9,11. Eternal hell Jacob 3:11; 6:10; 2 Nephi 19:16; 28:21-23. Polygamy condemned Jacob 1:15; 2:23,24,27,31;3:5; Mosiah 11:2,4; Ether 10:5,7. Mormon Doctrine Mormonism teaches there are many gods. Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 5. The Trinity is three separate gods. James Talmage, Articles of Faith, 1985, p. 35. God is increasing in knowledge. Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 120. God has the form of a man. Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3. Hell is not eternal. James Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 55. Polygamy was taught and practiced. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266.

The Bible is clear that all people are God’s creation (Colossians 1:16), and that God loves the entire world (John 3:16), but only those who are born again are children of God (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10). In Scripture, the lost are never referred to as children of God. Ephesians 2:3 tells us that before we were saved we were “by nature objects of wrath.” Romans 9:8 says that “it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.” Instead of being born as God’s children, we are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God’s enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8). Jesus said, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me” (John 8:42). Then a few verses later in John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they “belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.” The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.” We become children of God when we are saved because we are adopted into God’s family through our relationship with Jesus Christ (Galatians 4:5-6; Ephesians 1:5). This can be clearly seen in verses like Romans 8:14-17: “…because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, ‘Abba, Father.’ The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.” Those who are saved are children “of God through faith in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:26) because God has “predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will” (Ephesians 1:5).

How are the Mormons saved from their sins, and what must they do to be forgiven? Let’s take a look their scriptures, prophets, and teachers. First of all, the Book of Mormons says, “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins” (The Book of Mormon, Alma 11:37). (All underlines in these quotes have been added for emphasis.) This is reasonable, since God does not want us to sin against him and we cannot ignore God’s warnings against sin. Second, the Book of Mormon says, “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do,” (2 Nephi 25:23). Now this is where we run into a problem. We have to ask what it means to be “saved after all we can do?” How much must we do in order to become saved? The representatives of the Mormon Church give us the answer. “On the same basis men cannot be saved in their sins (Alma 11:37); the Lord has ordained the laws by which salvation and all good things come, and until obedience prepares the way, the promised blessings are withheld (D&C 88:21-24; 130:20-21; 132:5.). Men can no more be saved without obedience than they can be healed without faith. All things operate by law; blessings result from obedience to law and are withheld when there is no obedience” (BYU Professor Daniel H. Ludlow, A Companion to Your Study of the New Testament, p.222). The 13th President of the Mormon Church, Ezra Taft Benson, said, “What is meant by ‘after all we can do’? ‘After all we can do’ includes extending our best effort. ‘After all we can do’ includes living His commandments. ‘After all we can do’ includes loving our fellowmen and praying for those who regard us as their adversary. ‘After all we can do’ means clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and giving ‘succor [to] those who stand in need of [our] succor’ (Mosiah 4:15)-remembering that what we do unto one of the least of God's children, we do unto Him (see Matthew 25:34-40; D&C 42:38). ‘After all we can do’ means leading chaste, clean, pure lives, being scrupulously honest in all our dealings and treating others the way we would want to be treated” (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.354. Brackets in original). “But all of these blessings are ours on one condition, and this is spoken of by Nephi, when he said: For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, [but mark you this condition,] after all we can do” (Harold B. Lee, Conference Reports, April 1956, p.111. Brackets and italics in original). So, according to Mormonism to be “saved after all we can do” means to extend your best effort, live his commandments, love fellow men, pray for adversaries, cloth the naked, feed the hungry, visit the sick, lead chaste, clean lives, and be honest. This is a tall order, but does it really mean that you have to do all these things and others to be saved in Mormonism? Sure it does. But, is it possible for Mormons to do all of this? According to the Book of Mormon it is. “And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them” (The Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 3:7). Okay, so the Mormon has to keep the commandments to be saved and has no excuse for not doing them. In other words, Mormonism teaches that the Mormon must keep all the commandments all the time to be saved. But that isn’t all. The Mormon must also deny himself of all ungodliness in order for God’s grace to be sufficient. “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God” (The Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:32). Notice that God’s grace is sufficient for you after you deny yourself of all ungodliness. That is a tremendously tall order -- that is impossible. Who do you know, including yourself, who has denied himself of all ungodliness? Not most ungodliness, not some ungodliness, ALL! Remember, you must “deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you.” This is a hopelessly impossible command. No one can deny himself of all ungodliness. But, just in case you believe you can deny yourself of all ungodliness then that means you aren’t sinning any more. But, according to the Bible, if you say you aren’t sinning anymore, then you are self-deceived. 1 John 1:8 says, “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” Obviously, this is a difficult teaching. But, there’s more. In Mormonism, repentance from sin must be complete and permanent. The Fourth President of the Mormon Church, Wilford Woodruff, said... “And what is repentance? The forsaking of sin. The man who repents, if he be a swearer, swears no more; or a thief, steal no more; he turns away from all former sins and commits them no more. It is not repentance to say, I repent today, and then steal tomorrow; that is the repentance of the world, which is displeasing in the sight of God” (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, pp.71-72). Okay, so true repentance means that you don't commit any of the sins that you have repented of. What would happen if you did commit one of the sins from which you repented? What does Mormonism have to say about that? “The miracle of forgiveness is available to all of those who turn from their evil doings and return no more, because the Lord has said in a revelation to us in our day: ‘Go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth [meaning again] shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God’ (D&C 82:7). Have that in mind, all of you who may be troubled with a burden of sin” (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, p.120. Harold B. Lee was the 11th President of the LDS Church. Brackets in original.) “Those who receive forgiveness and then repeat the sin are held accountable for their former sins” (Gospel Principles, 1997, p.253). “20. In order to remain forgiven we must never commit the sin again” (Mormon Missionary Discussion F, Uniform System for Teaching Families. 1981, p.36). So in the Mormon view of repentance, once you have repented of the sin, if you commit it again, all of your former sins return to you. In other words, you have to be perfect. Is this a gospel of good news or of impossible expectations? Synopsis of Mormon Salvation You cannot be saved in your sins, (The Book of Mormon, Alma 11:37). By grace you are saved, after all you can do, (2 Nephi 25:23). You must give your best, (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.354.) You must deny yourselves of all ungodliness, (Moroni 10:32). Turn from all former sins and commit them no more, (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, pp.71-72). If you commit any past sin again, the former sins return, (D&C 82:7). Therefore, in order to remain forgiven you must never commit the sin again, (Mormon Missionary Discussion F, Uniform System for Teaching Families. 1981, p.36). Response to the Mormon Gospel Is this good news? Is this even doable? How can such a teaching you have to keep the law, repent of every sin, and never commit them again in order to be saved, be good news? It isn’t! What a heavy yoke the Mormon must carry in order to have his sins forgiven. Jesus said, “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 “Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls,” (Matt. 11:28-29). If you come to Jesus, you’re supposed to have rest. Is "rest" tyring to keep all the law in order to be forgiven? No, it isn’t. Again, this doesn’t mean it is okay to sin (Rom. 6:1-2), but it does mean that we rest, we trust completely in what Jesus did on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), how he fulfilled all the Law (1 Pet. 2:22), and we trust by faith in what he did (Rom. 5:1). That is the only way to obey Christ’s command to rest in him. Paul has a warning to those who think that they can combine works with grace. "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them,” (Gal. 3:10). James tells us the same thing “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all,” (James 2:10). Jesus condemns those who combine faith and works. "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness,’" (Matt. 7:22-23). Why would Jesus condemn people who believed in him and did good works in his name? Jesus called them sinners and told them to get away from him. Why? Simple, because those people were appealing to their salvation based on their faith and their works. To do that is to say that Jesus didn’t finish everything that was necessary for our salvation. It means that we have to do something. It means we add our works to Christ’s work. This is an insult to God! Our works are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6). This is why salvation is by faith, not by faith and works. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.” Rom. 3:28, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.” Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith." Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." The Mormons have an impossible gospel that they cannot live up to, that will lead them to be accursed of Jesus, and which violates justification by faith. Can the Mormon be saved following the Mormon gospel? No, he cannot. He needs to find rest in Jesus by being justified by faith, not faith and works.

The Bible describes heaven in great detail in Revelation chapters 21-22. Nowhere in those chapters is the possibility of sin mentioned. There will be no more death, sorrow, crying, or pain (Revelation 21:4). The sinful are not in heaven, but in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). Nothing impure will ever enter heaven (Revelation 21:27). Outside of heaven are those who sin (Revelation 22:15). So, the answer is no, there will be no sin in heaven. What does that mean for us? If there is no possibility of sin, does that mean we will no longer have a free will in heaven? Perhaps in heaven, our ability to choose will be similar to that of the angels. The angels had a one-time choice to obey God or follow Satan. There is no possibility of further angels sinning and joining Satan in his rebellion. The holy angels are "elect angels" (1 Timothy 5:21). Similarly, the elect in heaven will be "sealed" in their decision to forsake sin and trust in Christ. We will not even have the choice to sin. At the same time, having been delivered from sin and evil, and viewing the wonderful glories of heaven, we would not choose sin even if we had the choice. NOTE: Marriage at the Resurrection 23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?” 29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’a? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.

The Bible says that to determine truth you must examine the scriptures. First we see 2 Timothy 3:16-17 say that "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." Then when we look at Acts 17:11 which says, "Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so." If the Bereans compared what Paul the apostle said to inspired scripture, should we do any less with The Book of Mormon? Of course not. You don't pray about truth you look into the Bible for it. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jer. 17:9 The Book of Mormon Verses Mormon Doctrine The Book of Mormon does not contain Mormonism. It is more Christian than it is Mormon. Mormon theology is about many gods, god being a man, men and women potentially becoming gods, but the Book of Mormon is basically Christian in its teachings. The following information is in the Book of Mormon. Compare it to Mormon doctrine and see the differences. It is obvious that Mormonism grew and was pasted together as it developed. It is not internally consistent and it is self-contradictory. BOOK OF MORMON There is only one God* The Trinity is one God God is unchanging God is spirit Eternal hell Polygamy condemned MORMON DOCTRINE Mormonism teaches there are many gods.* The Trinity is three separate gods. God is increasing in knowledge.* God has the form of a man.* Hell is not eternal. Polygamy was taught and practiced.

Our salvation depends solely upon Jesus Christ. He is our substitute, taking sin’s penalty (2 Corinthians 5:21); He is our Savior from sin (John 1:29); He is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). The work necessary to provide salvation was fully accomplished by Jesus Himself, who lived a perfect life, took God’s judgment for sin, and rose again from the dead (Hebrews 10:12). The Bible is quite clear that our own works do not help merit salvation. We are saved “not because of righteous things we had done” (Titus 3:5). “Not by works” (Ephesians 2:9). “There is no one righteous, not even one” (Romans 3:10). This means that offering sacrifices, keeping the commandments, going to church, being baptized, and other good deeds are incapable of saving anyone. No matter how “good” we are, we can never measure up to God’s standard of holiness (Romans 3:23; Matthew 19:17; Isaiah 64:6). The Bible is just as clear that salvation is conditional; God does not save everyone. The one condition for salvation is faith in Jesus Christ. Nearly 200 times in the New Testament, faith (or belief) is declared to be the sole condition for salvation (John 1:12; Acts 16:31). One day, some people asked Jesus what they could do to please God: “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus immediately points them to faith: “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent” (John 6:28-29). So, the question is about God’s requirements (plural), and Jesus’ answer is that God’s requirement (singular) is that you believe in Him. Grace is God’s giving us something we cannot earn or deserve. According to Romans 11:6, “works” of any kind destroys grace—the idea is that a worker earns payment, while the recipient of grace simply receives it, unearned. Since salvation is all of grace, it cannot be earned. Faith, therefore, is a non-work. Faith cannot truly be considered a “work,” or else it would destroy grace. (See also Romans 4—Abraham’s salvation was dependent on faith in God, as opposed to any work he performed.) Suppose someone anonymously sent me a check for $1,000,000. The money is mine if I want it, but I still must endorse the check. In no way can signing my name be considered earning the million dollars—the endorsement is a non-work. I can never boast about becoming a millionaire through sheer effort or my own business savvy. No, the million dollars was simply a gift, and signing my name was the only way to receive it. Similarly, exercising faith is the only way to receive the generous gift of God, and faith cannot be considered a work worthy of the gift. True faith cannot be considered a work because true faith involves a cessation of our works in the flesh. True faith has as its object Jesus and His work on our behalf (Matthew 11:28-29; Hebrews 4:10). To take this a step further, true faith cannot be considered a work because even faith is a gift from God, not something we produce on our own. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8). “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44). Praise the Lord for His power to save and for His grace to make salvation a reality!