clint25n

You think you have it figured out, but you need to remember, the Bible IS God's testimony. And that God-breathed scripture says "only worship God", but beware because it says Jesus received worship. Men knelled to worship angels, and that worship was rejected. Cornelius fell down to worship Peter, and that worship was rejected. Always saying the same thing; only God deserves worship. But when Jesus received worship, it was indeed received. A leper worshipped Jesus, His disciples worshipped Jesus, the blind man worhsipped Jesus... even angels are instructed to worship Jesus. Jesus is God in the flesh, Emmanuel, God with us. He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities. Both the Father and the Lamb (Jesus) were praised by the created things, who attributed to them "blessing and honor and glory and power." What does the Bible (God's spoken word) say? To claim God's testimony is pointless is absurdity. Your hurdle in this life is this... will you believe the Bible.

Since no man can see the Father and live, Moses Noah and Isaiah saw the pre-incarnated Jesus.I read scriptures in their context only to demonstrate how many Christians believe there is only one God and that He is Triune. I understand you do not believe, but if you want to begin to claim that Moses who penned the first 5 books of the Old Testament believed there was more than one God, and that early Christians believed there were many Gods, then I don't see any rational dialog possible here. Thanks for your input however.

I understand you do not believe that our God is Triune, but where do you think the Christian world gets it from? Many passages throughout the Bible, including John. I'm not sure if you perhaps mean the actual word "Trinity" needs to be in the Bible? It doesn't say your quote in John, but throughout the Bible, passages describe a Triune God. I'm not here to convince you, but I will briefly explain why I and much of the Christian world believe God is Triune in nature. Throughout the Bible we read that there is only one God. "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." God testified that He is the only God, there are no other God's and there will never be any formed. But yet the Bible claims the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God. There are many passages that say "let Us go down and confuse their language", or "let Us make man in our own image". We believe God is 1 God in 3 persons. Jesus says the Father and I are one. I could go on, but I'm sure you can get a glimpse from this why it is the Mainstream Christian world believes in a Triune God. Thanks for listening :) "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." -2 Corinthians 13:14

I understand you do not believe in the Trinity, and I'm not trying to convince you to, but I thought I should point out that Jesus DID claim "I and the Father are one". He also called himself the "I AM" from the Old Testament which everyone knew to be God and the Jews picked up stones to kill Him since He claimed to be God and to know Abraham. Paul said that "all things were created by Jesus and for Jesus". John even said Jesus was the Word, and the Word was God. The apostles all agreed after Jesus's crucifixion that Jesus was God incarnate in the flesh. "..And they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." -Matthew 1:23 KJV Note: Even though Mainstream Christians believe in the Trinity, they do not believe in Modalism. So they do not believe Jesus was praying to himself. But yet all these Churches believe in the same core doctrine, and call each other brothers. You forgot the next sentance, "and the Word Was God." Once again. I know you don't believe in this. But I'm only reading what it says. It would be great to hear what you believe and to show why and where it says that. It's great to better understand where each are coming from. I'd really like to hear your point of view, and the references in scripture.

As a Christian that believes in a Triune God who's always existed, I wonder if my LDS friends believe that Heavenly Father was once a sinner? If God was once like us, then why not.

I guess I'm not sure what you mean. And I read your response twice and still not sure whether you believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers?? And people like me? What do you mean. You made a statement which I was surprised to read, and I asked you about it. I'm not attacking you, was just surprised you do not believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers. That's all, really.

You don't believe Jesus and Satan are brothers?

Ok, answering these question would sum up a great deal for me. 1. Is it possible for a Christian to preach the gospel outside of a general conference and not be considered Anti-Mormon? 2. Is there a difference between Anti-Mormons and Anti-Mormonism?

Hmm, interesting. I don't know why people would claim the LDS people practice polygamy on earth when their church forbid it over 100 years ago. In fact, if one were to practice it, they would be excommunicated from the LDS Church. Those people whom claim that the LDS practice polygamy today would indeed be lying. I just haven't seen any in movies, books or youtube.

Hmm, I've seen some of those books and movies, but I have not seen anyone claim that the mainstream LDS Church practices Polygamy. What they do say is that polygamy is still a part of Mormon doctrine. Not that they practice it on Earth. There are those whom are sealed to more than one wife, due to either the death of a spouse, or other reasons. Eternal marriage is a big part of the Mormon faith, and polygamy plays a role in that aspect (after Earth). I will say that Polygamy was permitted at times and forbidden at times in the Bible. But I'm not sure the matter of Polygamy on earth is lied about or even a concern to evangelicals. Unless of course you are FLDS.

What are these "lies" everyone is telling which you are speaking about? I'm not familiar with people spreading lies. I understand that there are people whom are very rude and perhaps do not truly love you but are instead preaching out of their pride. If you wish to call them Anti-Mormons, I would most definitely agree with you. But there are also many outside the pageant whom DO love and that can be seen taking the same approach as the apostles whom preached and contended for the faith at the steps of Jewish temples, synagogues and pagan temples. They were prosecuted, beaten arrested, and even killed for their offensive actions. These apostles were not Anti-Jew or Anti-Pagan, but were Anti- their belief system. These whom truly love Mormons and have compassion for their souls I could not call Anti-Mormon, but only Anti-Mormonism. You can be Pro-Mormon but Anti-Mormonism.

After listening to many debates on what defines Christianity, I've come to an understanding. It will never be possible for Mainstream Christianity and Mormonism to come to an agreement on whom are actually Christians for one good reason. Their terminology is almost completely different. Example: I've had Mormons agree with me on the statement that we are saved through grace and faith in Jesus Christ. But when the meaning of each one of the terms "saved", "grace", "faith" and even "Jesus Christ" are all different from mainstream ones, then even when we agree on this statement, we actually still disagree. A person could be raised up to believe that the color blue is actually called green. If you were to agree with them that green is the prettiest color, you would seem to agree, but only verbally. In truth, you would actually disagree, but walk away not knowing. You would both need to come to an authority on the truth to see what truth is. In this same way, when a Mormon says we are Christian, he is correct in his own terminology and worldview, but when a Mainstream Christian says they are not, they are correct from their terminology and worldview. To truly be able to make the proper judgement and understanding, one must be rooted and grounded in the truth. You must be anchored to God's Word, which is the final authority on what Christianity means.

My two cents... as a Christian, we believe people will be led astray by many different religions, and in the end will be separated from God forever. These people that speak out against the LDS beliefs may be Anti-Mormonism, but certainly not Anti-Mormons. The love for other people and their souls combined with the commandment from Jesus to earnestly contend for the faith cause them to speak out against the teachings of the LDS church. I hope no one believes these people have nothing but compassion for Mormons. There is no doubt the Gospel is both good news to many and offensive to others.

Yes, I do agree. Works are important because they demonstrate that we are a Christian (but not to become a Christian or to earn heaven, because you can't as Glenn said). Example: 1 of 2 things can happen. 1- Someone can be born again, have a new nature, and out of that new creature comes good works. This is a Christian doing good works because its in his new nature to do so. Works coming from faith. 2- Some people try to do good works in order to get saved, or make it to heaven. That is like someone saying the word "moooo" in order to become a cow. The reason the real cow moos is because it's in his nature to do moo. Similarly, a Christians does works because it is in his nature to do so. Therefore, works don't earn us salvation, they are the result of our salvation. Completely agree with you here... so many hypocritical Christians who are not saved at all. They believe in Jesus, but they were never born again. Just look up phrases like "then grace is sufficient for you" or "only after all you can do". I think its pretty well known that you have to do in order to receive in the LDS faith. Whereas the idea I mentioned earlier was that you receive 100% first, then you do because you are a new creature in Christ. Here is a prime example I suppose from the words of Joseph Smith himself. “All that we can do for ourselves we are required to do. We must do our own repenting; we are required to obey every commandment and live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. If we will do this, then we are freed from the consequences of our own sins. The plan of salvation is based on this foundation. No man can be saved without complying with these laws" (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p.172). When Glenn Beck says one thing "there is nothing you can do to be saved", it made me want to ask Mormons what they think when their founding prophet said you must "obey every commandment" to be saved. But I really didn't come to debate.. I was seriously under the impression that most LDS believed you must do in order to receive. But if you believe there is nothing you can do to earn heaven, it's by grace alone... then I have my answer, and am pleased with your reply! I hope to learn more about your faith in my time here.

Ok, so it looks like some say grace alone is sufficient, and good works don't earn you heaven (merely come out of your Christianity), and some people seem to say that works are required to earn heaven. So I would assume some agree with Glenn Beck here and some don't. I wonder if I can find a poll on this subject buried in the forum archives.