Martain

I had in fact read the link. Please don't bite my head off for asking a sincere question Jayanna. If I didn't want help I wouldn't have asked. You judge harshly and you judge wrong. Did I offend you that you would verbally bash me so? If so, I'm sorry, please forgive me.

Yeah, I've considered multiple times that perhaps I need to move out. Yet when I asked in prayer the answer was that I needed to stay here. I've seen reasons for it since then too. It would be nice if I knew what it is I have to do, for I do not. The biggest piece of the puzzle as to what I am to do is 'endure'. Yet I don't think that's the entire picture.

Huh. With my father away, I was the presiding priesthood authority in my home. Therefore I had the right to ask another to bless it for me the same way my father would have the right to ask another as well. Right? Wrong?

It was a hypothetical situation used in trying to explain my point. Yeah, true, but another explanation would be that they saw through the eyes of the spirit. Science is great. It is! At least at explaining physical phenomenon. Yet when it comes to explaining spiritual phenomenon? Not particularly useful. They have no clue. They don't even believe it exists as general rule. So even if something is in essence a spiritual matter, they'll try to find some physical explanation to explain it away. Such an explination is fine when it is indeed a physical matter but not when it is dealing with the spirit. I know because I've prayed about it and said "this" is happening to me and the Spirit confirmed that yes, it is. What else can I go off of than that?

I know. Thanks. Yet that itself is the problem. They are doing things to me and I'm not 'letting' them do it. Hence my post and plea to Jayanna under the post found here.

Thank you. Her feelings are mine. I wish I could have known her for perhaps she would have had insights that she gained through the course of her life which would prove invaluable in mine. I've wondered the same thing you have. One of my prayers has been to find someone who has gone through what I'm going through now who can guide me through it and answer some of the many questions I have. Even though I have not found an individual in answer to that prayer I have wondered if one day I'm to be the answer to such a prayer in others.

It doesn't bother you because you're not aware of it. If you were, I bet you'd sing a different tune =P. I agree and do my best to discourage their presence. Yet it seems their determination to destroy us is greater than the discomfort such positive influences provide. Sigh... yeah I know, I've pursued this path as well. While not a perfect example, lets try this. Let us say someone was born blind having never seen color. Of course they've heard people talk about colors. They know that some things are green and other things blue. For them though, there is no association because there is no sensory information upon which to associate. Your sitting with them one day and they fall asleep. They suddenly wake up and exclaim in surprise. They then describe what you look like, the clothes you have on, the rings on your finger, the way you've parted your hair, the fact that you need to shave, that you have a mole on your right cheek and that your right shoe is untied. How did you see me? Your eyes were closed the entire time you were asleep! Can you see me now? They indicate no and then ask what color your shirt is and you say blue. Your hair? Brown. Your eyes? Etc. Oh! So that's what blue, brown, green, etc. looks like! Regardless of how one decides to explain how it happened, I don't see how you could conclude anything other than that the blind person received new sensory information by some means. In such a situation you could not logically force your explanation upon the matter because it doesn't fit. One of the reasons that I am convinced that it isn't what you think, is because I've experienced sensory information which I did not have previously. I've experienced things which for all my desire to rationalize away, I could not have imagined or conceived and have never experienced before. There are quite a number of other reasons but I'm not here to discuss them in detail. They might be enough to convince you and they might not.

Sigh... I was really hoping you would. It would help a lot. I've looked and haven't been able to find what you indicate you've found. I can see coming to the same conclusion as you have if I were not experiencing what I'm experiencing. For I've looked both inward and outward to find the source of the invitation and been unable to find it. That's why I've come to the conclusion that unless there is an active power preventing their entry into a home or room, they can enter. My father was away one week and I the only Elder in the house. I called upon my Bishop and asked for him to dedicate the home. He came and offered a beautiful dedication and I felt safe. Finally I could lay down to rest and I did so fully believing that I was safe. Yet within 15 minutes of falling asleep, I was woken to see a spirit standing beside my bed which leaned over to me three times, calling me by name each time, and then telling me that evil spirits were coming and that I needed to rise up and cast them out. Now let us suppose that this was a good spirit. It would indicate that although they had left, they were now returning in force and that what ever power the dedication provided, it would be or was insufficient. Now let us suppose that this was a evil spirit. This would indicate that either the dedication had no power to prevent their entry or that what ever power it did have was insufficient to do so. My Bishop himself had commented on how beautiful and good the room looked. He admired my gospel library and the gospel pictures I had upon my wall. I know that there wasn't anything of a material nature that would act as an invitation, and there were no thought sins that I can envision either. I was fully convinced that they could not gain entry. So if your statement is true, then I am missing something. I would like it to be true because then I would know where to search rather than needing to consider every other possible explanation. So please, please, if you're willing, can you back up your belief with the scriptures? For a long time I held the belief that evil spirits can not enter a temple. Yet in searching as to where this belief came from, I could not find it. Can you? If you can, it would help because it has direct bearing upon the home as well.

The questions I asked in my original thread were questions I have been unable to find answers on either by appeal to scriptures or words of the prophets. Hence my reasons for asking it hear, to see if anyone had found something I had missed. Although my Savior has defeated him, none of us have that's for sure. You are right that he can not force us to sin. I do not counter your statement for the sake of argument. I do it because I have evidence that such a statement is not always true if it was in the first place. After all, are you indicating that the senses of your spirit are awakened within you that you are able to receive sensory input from them in addition to those of the body? If not, then unless you gain a witness through the spirit that such a rule is true, can you say that you know he has no such power over you? Even if he did, you simply wouldn't be aware of it. I was sincere when I said that I really want to believe that doctrine. Something is broken within me. I do not know what has caused it. I've been searching for years. What ever protection is naturally afforded to us seems to have vanished in my case. Is it sin? If so I have been unable to find it. I am a worthy temple recommend holder and I'm keeping my covenants. My bishop and my stake president agree. I took it to the Lord in prayer and he agreed as well. I have the gift of the Holy Ghost and I enjoy it often. If it were unrepented sin which was causing this break, the Spirit would not be able to dwell within me as it does. The adversary is not forcing me to sin. He does not have such power. Yet let us say the adversary has power to touch your spirit... this still does not force you to sin in any way. Yet what he can do in such a situation... would be so painful and so horrendous that you would sometimes wish that the Lord would take your life as it would be preferable to its continuation. So please. Help me out. I asked if you could unfold the scriptures to me in support of the doctrine you gave. What you came back with doesn't make sense to me. You quote the doctrine of Satan's inability to force us to sin and indicate that should he have power to touch our spirit he would then be able to force us to sin and that therefore he cannot have such a power save we allow it through sin. At least, that's the way I understood your response. Perhaps your making a logical leap that I'm missing? How would the adversary having power to touch our spirit break the law that he can not force us to sin?

Found in the Old Testament Institute Study Guide

In regards to casting out of evil spirits. You can not cast them out of someone contrary to their agency or the agency of one who has stewardship over them. I expect the same can be said for location. Yes I know you were being flippant =)

Beautiful! I would love for this doctrine to be true! Yet what of Satan appearing to and tempting Christ? Are we to say that he who was sinless in both thought and action was by deed or thought inviting Satan into his presence? What of Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove? Are we saying that Joseph invited the adversary to assault him there as well? That he permitted the adversary power over him? Power which almost destroy him and I expect would have had the Lord not intervened? What of Satan appearing as an angel of light on the banks of the Susquehanna river and God sending Michael to command him to leave? Was he invited on this occasion as well? If you have been through the temple, what about Adam's prayer and the following result? Was he invited then? I agree that the Lord has set certain laws that the Adversary can not pass. I agree that one of these laws is that Satan and his hosts can not possess a physical body of another without invitation. I see it as a logical leap to assume that this can be extended to physical locations as well. Yet though it be logical, it does not make it true. So please help me out. How do you arrive at such a conclusion? I want your statement to be true and would appreciate if you could use the words of the Prophets to support you so that I may know this is a doctrine of God and not of man. I don't see an outright way out of being tempted. Being tempted isn't a sin. Giving into the temptation is. The goal is to pay no attention to them and not succumb. The Adversary and his hosts can not touch our eternal spirits unless we allow them to? The adversary has the power to tempt mankind. This is a power given to him by God. Yet wherein was our agency used to allow him to have such power over us? I expect we must have accepted it as a necessary part of obtaining a physical body. Who is to say that there were not some other powers we permitted him over us at the same time that we chose to permit in order to come here? After all, though we know he has the power to tempt, little if anything is known as to the mechanisms and means by which he does so. Who is to say that one such mechanism doesn't involve interaction with our spirit? I ask you as well to back up your statement with the words of the Prophets to prove that this is a doctrine of God and not of man. If you can't, are you indicating that regardless as to the mechanisms by which they tempt man, whether or not that involves interaction with the spirit body of a man, it doesn't matter because we are not aware of it?

Sorry Justice, I didn't ignore the rest of your comment. I initiated family prayer quite a while ago and have gotten everyone else to come too. Yet I have not been successful with family home evening or daily family scripture study. I study the scriptures daily myself because that is what I can do. As to the rest I am limited for I have no rights of stewardship over my parents or sister. Hence one of my questions was in regards to protection as room specific.

Question: How does one watch and pray always during the +-8 hours that we sleep? If it is not needed, why not? You are a guard at the door to the wall surrounding a castle. Now there are multiple doors to the wall but as for you, you can only be in one place at a time and only protect one door. Some guards are easily distracted or don't pay attention but you're vigilant and you need to be for the enemy has been trying to get past you all day long but for the most part you keep running them off. Every now and then they'll sneak past the guards while they aren't paying attention or manage to get invited in through use of disguise and cunning. Regardless of where they enter, sooner or later they give themselves away and you drive them off. Yet you know your human and sooner or later you must sleep. You retire to bed but wake to find yourself surrounded by the foe. Battle ensues and you drive them off. Where are the guards? Why they're all asleep! Looking around yourself you see the damage they've done and the wounds you've received but again sleep quickly overcomes you. Relentless the enemy continues to assail you without regard for your need to sleep.

One of the signs of those who believe is that in Christ name they shall cast out devils. Is this only out of individuals? Is not this same principal applicaple to places we have stewardship over such as our home and room? I have been going under the belief that this is so. Am I wrong? Having cast them out, what can be done to prevent their return? Example 1: You become aware of Group A of evil spirits in your home. You command them to leave your home and they do. Upon leaving, they signal to 'Group B' who then enter your home and pick up where 'Group A' left off. Example 2: You become aware of 'Group A' of evil spirits in your home. You command them to leave your home and they do. After successfully completing the command to leave your home. They simply turn around and come right on back in. Thus the question, what can be done to prevent their return? In my mind it comes down to one of two things. One one hand we have something actively inviting them in and on the other we have a lack of something actively keeping them out. Let us say we go thorugh our house and our minds and remove everything which would offend the Spirit of the Lord or restrict His presence, in essense removing everything which would actively invite such evil spirits into our midst. How can this alone be sufficent protection save there be some force or power actively keeping them out? Is one to argue that the presence of the Spirit of God alone is sufficent protection to prevent evil spirits from being in one's presence? If this were so, then how could Satan have appeared and tempted Christ who was perfect, sinless, and filled with the Spirit of God? If the presence of the Spirit of God is by itself insufficient a detractor to prevent their entry, where else do we turn? In our search we run up against the question as to if such protection is even available in the first place. I understand that many Latter-day Saints hold the belief that a Temple, as a sacred edifice dedicated to God, is a Holy Place where no evil spirit may enter. Yet if this is so, can anyone prove by virtue of the teachings of the Prophets old or new that such is true? If it is not true, can anyone explain where does such a belief comes from? Let us say that such protection can indeed be found therein and conclude that it could be perpetuated by nothing other than the Priesthood. Let us refer to the blessings the Lord promised in regards to his house and conclude that the whole is sufficent to prevent entry by any unclean spirit. The blessings above are only in force so long as the temple is clean and undefiled. If such a dedication does indeed prevent the entry of evil spirits, then would not such protection only be available so long as it remains holy? Is this not why, after major renovations at the hands of those unworthy to enter, a temple is rededicated? If a temple can be dedicated to the Lord, why not a house? We are told that a house can indeed be dedicated to the Lord through the Priesthood. If so, so long as it is clean and undefiled, would the same blessings as mentioned above be available? Yet what can one do when they live with others whose choices and actions would make unclean that which was clean and defile that which was undefiled? What actions would constitute such a change? Would a home need to then be rededicated to renew the blessings obtained by having a home dedicated to the Lord? What blessings are there for having such a home and do they differ from those of a temple? If one is unable to secure such a dedication upon an entire household, due to the actions of members within, can a dedication be room specific? Does such a dedication, while in force, prevent the entry of evil spirits? One could make the argument that such protection is not needed or available. Yet as Priesthood holders are we not accountible before God for the protection of our homes from evil? One could make the argument that such accountibility refers only to those things of the world which would offend the Spirit of God. Yet if this were so, then of what need is the Priesthood in order to accomplish such a task? Can not a Father without the priesthood do just as good of a job of keeping out the world as a Father with the Priesthood? Questions questions questions... Anyone have answers?

Found under D&C 88:99 in the D&C Institute Manual which is published directly by the church in the same way the Ensign and Book of Mormon are.

I have a friend who shared some personal insights regarding this topic with me once. She is a therapist who deals with those who have suffered from such abuse. Even though it happened far in the past, it can be so traumatic as to cause the victim to mentally experience it again and again in a manner so vivid, both waking and sleeping, as to sometimes be indistinguishable from reality. For some it becomes an opening through which adversarial forces strike similar blows in turn turning their life into a living hell. Such violent evil acts also leave behind a host of seeds which may grow into the same fruit. This doesn't happen for the majority of those so harmed but many if not the majority of those who so harm were at one point or another victims of the same themselves. Not to be discounted are the degrading feelings of filthiness that come from such violations. Even though a victim may know that it wasn't their fault and that they are blameless, they will nevertheless struggle, perhaps their entire lives, with feelings of guilt, shame and feeling dirty or worthless. We know that part of the repentance process is restitution. If you steal it is fairly easy to provide a full restitution. Not so with rape and molestation. The effects upon the mind body and spirit of those whose chastity is forcibly taken from them is so immense that there is no possible way for an equal restitution to be made by the sinner who in turn having done what they 'can do' ultimately must rely upon the grace of Christ to make up for the difference. The scripture above is even for those whose chastity is lost without force. Each act is like taking a searing iron to your capacity to feel the Holy Ghost. I believe such desensitization is of a greater duration than anything else excluding murder. Once lost, you could also perhaps equate it with sending a man into a battlefield without his armor. I believe ALL of the adversarial darts penetrate that much more easily than they otherwise would. This would be true regardless of whether or not it was voluntary. When you steal from a man you steal something that can be replaced. You cannot restore someone their chastity and in so doing you place them in a position where the adversary has greater power over them. Also to be noted is the difficulty victims of such abuse find in forgiving the one who attacked them. We are taught by the scriptures that we must forgive or ours is the greater sin. Does not placing another in such a position not magnify the seriousness? For if a victim can not forgive, then they too are guilty of sin second only to murder. Can you begin to comprehend the gravity of such sins yet?

The question comes down to whether or not the record is true. We can know whether or not Joseph of Egypt really said these things. We can know this the same way we can know that the Book or Mormon is true. By asking God and receiving a personal witness, a personal revelation, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

If you have a glass of pure water and you add one drop of poison to it, the water is no longer pure but poisoned. If you have a book of pure truth and you add one lie to it, the book is no longer pure truth. Joseph Smith could not have translated an ancient record by the power of God and also added a few things of his own personal choosing to make himself look better. By adding falsehoods to the Book, it would prevent the Holy Ghost from testifying that it is true. God simply wouldn't have allowed it.

I once asked the Lord regarding the Book of Mormon. My question was no longer whether or not Joseph translated it by revelation, but as to whether or not the Prophets of old who wrote it, accurately depicted history they wrote about. I received a confirmation that yes, they did. I know the Book of Mormon is true and that it was correctly translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith. I suppose it's no different than Moses finding himself referred to in past scripture as well. God has in the past had prophets prophecy of future prophets and the work they would do. I see no scriptural difficulty in accepting that God would choose to do so for Joseph Smith as well considering his role in the Restoration. Since I know that the Book of Mormon is true this doesn't irk me. Ultimately, you'll have to do the same thing I did and try the promise.

Yes there will indeed still be anger in the spirit world.

While I can't provide you the Library of Congress number associated with it... The ordinances given in the temple, the words spoken, are all copyrighted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[ Considered correct by whom? If you mean The Church, please give us an official Church reference. ------- Jesus The Christ By James E. Talmage One of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Preface: "The author of this volume entered upon his welcome service under request and appointment from the presiding authorities of the Church; and the completed work has been read to and is approved by the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve. It presents, however, the writers personal belief and the profoundest conviction as to the truth of what he has written. The book is published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." ------- Another way to confirm... These two books are listed on the offical Church website as official church products. See here.

Publications published by the Church indicate the following: "Published by The CHurch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" An example would be the publication information in the front of the Book of Mormon. Or found in the Institute manuals or in the Ensign. If it's published directly by the Church then it will say so. That there are works published by the Church through Deseret Book I do not dispute for it is true. Yet to say that Deseret Book will publish Church material only? Where do you get that from? Deseret Book publishes not only material from the Church but also material's written by members as well. As for sale and promotion, they promote many items that are written by neither of the two categories as well. So while I can accept anything published directly by the church as doctrinal, I do not believe I can accept everything published by Deseret Book. My guidelines for Deseret Book are the following: Was it authored by an Apostle while they were an Apostle. If so, I accept it as doctrine for an apostle is a prophet and are not the words of the prophet scripture?