Martain

Would we become subject to the devil without a resurrection? Hmm... I think it's more than just the resurrection. It's the atonement in it's entirety. If not for the atonement of Jesus Christ, which encompasses Christ's victory over the grave and the promise of Resurrection, we would ultimately remain in a disembodied sinful and unclean state (post death). Since no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God, we would forever be cut off. A state where one is cut off forever from God and without physical body, whether disembodied or unembodied, is the state Satan is in. Without the atonement and resurrection, having sinned we would be under the dominion of Satan for when we sin he is the master we serve. Hence subject. Maybe I didn't exactly answer the question but I hope this helps.

Why not make a personal visit to your Bishop? Explain your concerns and feelings to him and ask for priesthood advice? Perhaps she would react differently if the advice were coming from him rather than you? As for swimwear, I've had it pointed out to me that often it is a case of either being unable to find or being unable to afford a more modest alternative. To aid in the first I offer said alternative. Is she intentionally seeking out attention of other men? Is this a form of exhibitionism? I don't know. A question I would however have for you is how often do you two attend the temple? While said question of course must needs take into consideration whether or not you have a temple nearby, it is never the less relevant. If at all possible, I expect, a weekly endowment/sealing session with your wife will work wonders.

It is a Gift of the Spirit. While I don't know which law you refer to I do nevertheless have some advice. Ask in sincere prayer for the desire to keep the law because you love God and not because it's simply expected. Ask for it.

Modesty: 1. Not excessively large, elaborate, or expensive 2. Unassuming or moderate in the estimation of one's abilities or achievements 3. Dressing or behaving so as to avoid impropriety or indecency, especially to avoid attracting sexual attention 4. Not revealing or emphasizing the figure I read these definitions and I see it also listed as the following. Modesty: 1. Greed/Generosity 2. Pride/Humility 3 & 4. Unchaste/Chaste To me this would also explain why the latter two definitions are more emphasized. Out of the three sets of sins/virtues, the latter rank. Also, when we talk about Greed/Generosity we usually use those words rather than modest. Likewise when we talk about Pride/Humility we use those words instead of modest as well. It seems that the third and fourth definition are different in that we use modest in explaining those definitions over the use of unchaste and chaste. If we wanted to discuss definitions 1 & 2, would it not be better to separate them into a separate thread?

Why should women have a monopoly on what is modest? Why should it be different for men? Does seeing a guy showing off his upper torso not tempt women to think lustful thoughts too? Why is the guy running topless if not to show off his body and attract attention? Isn't that immodest? Do you see fat men running shirtless? Would it be appropriate for a woman to come up to a shirtless man and feel up his torso? If not, why is it appropriate visually? Yet what of swimming and basketball? Why should the standard be for women only? Why should age play a factor in modesty? I wish the Prophets would speak as clearly on the subject of male modesty as they do women's. Part of the reason why I think modest is brought up to women more than men is as you said. Male immodesty isn't as culturally promoted and advertised. Another reason is due to biological differences between men and women. Women have more sensory receptors in their skin than men. Men are literally thicker skinned than women and less receptive to temperature changes. Women also have more visual nerve endings for peripheral vision than men whose nerves are more concentrated in the center. We generally have better tunnel vision and women have better peripheral vision. This is reflected in the senses. Where as women are more receptive to touch, men gravitate towards visual stimulus. I tend to believe that you gals are simply better than us in regards to how immodesty affects you. I personally believe this simply isn't a general weakness you gals share. Respecting a male's body and not reacting to the visual stimulus in an inappropriate way doesn't seem to be the problem for you it is for men. I may indeed be wrong but I hope not. I also do believe that women encourage men to dress immodestly the way men encourage women to dress. I highly suspect that the creator of the 'Old Spice Guy' was a man. It sounds like something from the head of a man rather than the head of a women to me. Now such thoughts may indeed be sexist but since they are in your favor, please don't be offended? Makes me wonder though regarding the sin of immodesty. Think about it... If you go and put a bottle of beer in front of someone and he or she drinks... are you not responsible for having provided the temptation? If a man or woman is livid at someone and you put a gun in their hand and they shoot the person dead... are you not responsible for your part in the sin? Are the casino owners not responsible for providing the machines by which people gamble? If a man or women dresses to attract unwholesome attention... are they not responsible as well? One could counter that said person was going to do such act anyways. That is true of some people. Yet it isn't always the case. Although the sinner isn't justified in sinning, is the tempter justified in tempting? Yet obviously there are exceptions. There are people who will attract such attention regardless of what they wear. Their are virtuous men and women who will attract unwelcome attention no matter how modest they dress. Is not part of the sinfulness of immodesty in how you're tempting someone else to sin? When you dress modest, at least you are comfortable in knowing that you're neither contributing towards someone else sinning or sinning yourself. Thoughts?

Thank you Jenamarie, you've once again given me food for thought. So has everyone else. Thanks for the examples =). This is definitely not a popular subject. Similar to how Connie had a talk she's been influenced by which she wanted to share, I want to share one that has heavily influenced me in the category of modesty. It really made me think and if you're looking for something to help emphasize modesty to young women... I volunteer this. A Style of Our Own - Spencer W. Kimball Thanks, I agree. What I wanted conveyed is not what was received. The learning curve can be painful.

I agree that we should treat other people with respect regardless of how they are dressed. I'm wondering if perhaps I simply have a different way of doing so. In my eye, I'm respecting someone when I choose not to look at immodesty. I'm giving them the privacy they lack and in doing so, showing respect for the daughter (or son) of God they are. You gave me a good example of when my logic doesn't exactly work, perhaps you can provide one again for what you said above. To me, your saying "if she hadn't worn that..." is true. If she hadn't, would she have attracted the attention of that type of guy? Is there a difference for guys? Won't a guy who is extreme in appearance or immodest in dress attract different attention than he otherwise would? D&C 88:40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things. Modesty will cleave to modesty and chastity to chastity. Immodesty will attract the immodest and a lack of chastity will attract those who are unchaste. "What we wear will influence other's behavior towards us" This just rings true to me. I understand you do not like it, but I don't see a way around it. Even the behavior of the Holy Ghost is influenced by what we wear. I'm glad that what I wear will influence other's behaviors towards me. There is a type of attention that I don't want to attract and this teaches me how to avoid it. I'm glad because it teaches me how I can better invite the Spirit to be in my life. I'm glad because I want to attract a modest and chaste daughter of God and this principle teaches me how. By being chaste and modest myself, I will draw unto me those who likewise are. To me, it's wonderful. Yes, I do indeed like that quote. Thank you again Connie for the link. It's at moments like this where I'm also grateful for Latter Day Prophets who can council, teach and guide us on the pathway back home. They say few are the ones that find it and enter in. I've found it, we have it, and I'm walking in. There is no other path worth pursuing and I will walk none other than this line. It's true. It's all true. God really lives and really loves us. He really knows our names and heart. He really does hear our prayers and really does want to bless us. Thank God for the restoration of the Gospel, for Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. It's true, I know it's true, and it brings me more happiness and joy that I would have ever imagined. Pure... Simple... Sublime... Inspired...Truth. ~~~~Hosanna Hosanna to God and the Lamb! Let Glory to them in the highest be given, hence forth and forever, Amen and Amen.~~~~

Connie? Thank you for that and for the link to the talk. I really enjoyed it too and thought I'd share one of the quotes from it that I liked. "When we dress for attention, we are not inviting the Spirit to be with us. We act differently when we are dressed for the world’s attention. Moreover, what we wear will influence the behavior of others toward us."

This one was a page taken directly out of the Eternal Marriage Student Manual put together by the Church. I felt the quotes were just so wonderful and wanted to share them. An online version of the manual can be found here if anyone wants to do self study and doesn't have a class on it nearby. Aren't women wonderful !

DIFFERENCES INHERENT BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN Some roles are best suited to the masculine nature and others to the feminine nature. —Elder Boyd K. Packer SELECTED TEACHINGS President Harold B. Lee “From my experience, it would seem that faithful mothers have a special gift that we often refer to as mother’s intuition. Perhaps with the great blessing of motherhood, our Heavenly Father has endowed them with this quality, since fathers, busy in priesthood callings and with the work of earning a livelihood, never draw quite as close to heavenly beings in matters that relate to the more intimate details of bringing up children in the home” ( Teachings of Harold B. Lee, 291). President Spencer W. Kimball “In his wisdom and mercy, our Father made men and women dependent on each other for the full flowering of their potential. Because their natures are somewhat different, they can complement each other; because they are in many ways alike, they can understand each other. Let neither envy the other for their differences; let both discern what is superficial and what is beautifully basic in those differences, and act accordingly” ( “Relief Society—Its Promise and Potential,” Ensign, Mar. 1976, 5 ). “We had full equality as his spirit children. We have equality as recipients of God’s perfected love for each of us. . . . “Within those great assurances, however, our roles and assignments differ. These are eternal differences—with women being given many tremendous responsibilities of motherhood and sisterhood and men being given the tremendous responsibilities of fatherhood and the priesthood” ( “The Role of Righteous Women,” Ensign, Nov. 1979, 102 ). President Ezra Taft Benson “You [women] were not created to be the same as men. Your natural attributes, affections, and personalities are entirely different from a man’s. They consist of faithfulness, benevolence, kindness, and charity. They give you the personality of a woman. They also balance the more aggressive and competitive nature of a man. “The business world is competitive and sometimes ruthless. We do not doubt that women have both the brainpower and skills—and in some instances superior abilities—to compete with men. But by competing they must, of necessity, become aggressive and competitive. Thus their godly attributes are diminished and they acquire a quality of sameness with man” ( Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, 547–48). President Howard W. Hunter “I suppose you would say it is a man’s viewpoint to throw a burden upon a woman to maintain the stability and the sweetness of marriage, but this seems to be her divine nature. She has a superior spirituality in the marriage relationship, and the opportunity to encourage, uplift, teach, and be the one who sets the example in the family for righteous living. When women come to the point of realizing that it is more important to be superior than to be equal, they will find the real joy in living those principles that the Lord set out in his divine plan” ( Teachings of Howard W. Hunter, 139). “It seems strange that women want to enter into professions and into work and into places in society on an equality with men, wanting to dress like men and carry on men’s work. I don’t deny the fact that women are capable of doing so, but as I read the scriptures, I find it hard to reconcile this with what the Lord has said about women—what he has said about the family, what he has said about children. It seems to me that in regard to men and women, even though they might be equal in many things, there is a differentiation between them that we fully understand. I hope the time never comes when women will be brought down to the level with men, although they seem to be making these demands in meetings held . . . all over the world” ( Teachings of Howard W. Hunter, 150). President James E. Faust “Before we were born, male and female, we made certain commitments and . . . agreed to come to this earth with great, rich, but different gifts. We were called, male and female, to do great works with separate approaches and separate assignments. “. . . Becoming like men is not the answer. Rather, the answer lies in being who you are and living up to your divine potential by fulfilling eternal commitments. . . . “All of you will have to sometime answer to your natural womanly instincts, which the Prophet Joseph said are according to your natures. He said, ‘If you live up to your privileges, the angels cannot be restrained from being your associates.’ [ Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 226.] You should respond generously to those instincts and promptings to do good. Hold your soul very still, and listen to the whisperings of the Holy Spirit. Follow the noble, intuitive feelings planted deep within your souls by Deity in the previous world. In this way you will be responding to the Holy Spirit of God and will be sanctified by truth. By so doing, you will be eternally honored and loved. Much of your work is to enrich mankind with your great capacity for care and mercy” ( “How Near to the Angels,” Ensign, May 1998, 95–97 ). President Boyd K. Packer “The tender hand of the sister gives a gentle touch of healing and encouragement which the hand of a man, however well intentioned, can never quite duplicate” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1998, 94; or Ensign, May 1998, 72 ). “In the home and in the Church, sisters should be esteemed for their very nature. Be careful lest you unknowingly foster influences and activities which tend to erase the masculine and feminine differences nature has established. A man, a father, can do much of what is usually assumed to be a woman’s work. In turn, a wife and a mother can do much—and in time of need, most things—usually considered the responsibility of the man, without jeopardizing their distinct roles. Even so, leaders, and especially parents, should recognize that there is a distinct masculine nature and a distinct feminine nature essential to the foundation of the home and the family. Whatever disturbs or weakens or tends to erase that difference erodes the family and reduces the probability of happiness for all concerned” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1998, 96; or Ensign, May 1998, 73 ). Elder Thomas S. Monson “What the modernists, even the liberationists, fail to remember is that women, in addition to being persons, also belong to a sex, and that with the differences in sex are associated important differences in function and behavior. Equality of rights does not imply identity of functions. As Paul the apostle declared: ‘. . . neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.’ ( 1 Cor. 11:11 .)” ( “The Women’s Movement: Liberation or Deception?” Ensign, Jan. 1971, 20 ). Elder Boyd K. Packer “Except Adam and Eve by nature be different from one another, they could not multiply and fill the earth [see Genesis 1:28, note 28 c ]. The complementing differences are the very key to the plan of happiness. “Some roles are best suited to the masculine nature and others to the feminine nature” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 28; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 21 ). Elder James E. Faust See quotations on page 80 . Elder Dallin H. Oaks “We live in a day when there are many political, legal, and social pressures for changes that confuse gender and homogenize the differences between men and women. Our eternal perspective sets us against changes that alter those separate duties and privileges of men and women that are essential to accomplish the great plan of happiness. We do not oppose all changes in the treatment of men and women, since some changes in laws or customs simply correct old wrongs that were never grounded in eternal principles” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 99; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 73–74 ). Elder Richard G. Scott “Our Heavenly Father endowed His sons and daughters with unique traits especially fitted for their individual responsibilities as they fulfill His plan. To follow His plan requires that you do those things He expects of you as a son or daughter, husband or wife. Those roles are different, but entirely compatible. In the Lord’s plan, it takes two—a man and a woman—to form a whole. Indeed, a husband and wife are not two identical halves, but a wondrous, divinely determined combination of complementary capacities and characteristics. “Marriage allows these different characteristics to come together in oneness—in unity—to bless a husband and wife, their children and grandchildren. For the greatest happiness and productivity in life, both husband and wife are needed. Their efforts interlock and are complementary. Each has individual traits that best fit the role the Lord has defined for happiness as a man or woman. When used as the Lord intends, those capacities allow a married couple to think, act, and rejoice as one—to face challenges together and overcome them as one, to grow in love and understanding, and through temple ordinances to be bound together as one whole, eternally. That is the plan. “You can learn how to be more effective parents by studying the lives of Adam and Eve. Adam was Michael who helped create the earth—a glorious, superb individual. Eve was his equal—a full, powerfully contributing partner. After they had partaken of the fruit, the Lord spoke with them. Their comments reveal some different characteristics of a man and woman. To Adam He said, ‘Hast thou eaten of the tree whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat?’ [ Moses 4:17 .] Now, Adam’s response was characteristic of a man who wants to be perceived as being as close to right as possible. Adam responded, ‘The woman thou gavest me, and commandest that she should remain with me, she gave me of the fruit of the tree and I did eat.’ [ Moses 4:18 .] And the Lord said unto Eve, ‘What is this thing which thou hast done?’ [ Moses 4:19 .] Eve’s response was characteristic of a woman. Her answer was very simple and straightforward. ‘The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.’ [ Moses 4:19 .]” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1996, 101; or Ensign, Nov. 1996, 73–74 ). Elder Neal A. Maxwell “We know so little, brothers and sisters, about the reasons for the division of duties between womanhood and manhood as well as between motherhood and priesthood. These were divinely determined in another time and another place. . . . “We men know the women of God as wives, mothers, sisters, daughters, associates, and friends. You seem to tame us and to gentle us, and, yes, to teach us and to inspire us. For you, we have admiration as well as affection, because righteousness is not a matter of role, nor goodness a matter of gender. In the work of the Kingdom, men and women are not without each other, but do not envy each other, lest by reversals and renunciations of role we make a wasteland of both womanhood and manhood” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1978, 13; or Ensign, May 1978, 10 ). Elder Merrill J. Bateman “When a man understands how glorious a woman is, he treats her differently. When a woman understands that a man has the seeds of divinity within him, she honors him not only for who he is but for what he may become. An understanding of the divine nature allows each person to have respect for the other. The eternal view engenders a desire in men and women to learn from and share with each other. “Men and women are created as complements. They complete one another. Paul told the Corinthians: ‘Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord’ ( 1 Corinthians 11:11 ). Men and women complement each other not only physically, but also emotionally and spiritually. The apostle Paul taught that ‘the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband’ and through them both the children are made holy ( 1 Corinthians 7:14 ). Men and women have different strengths and weaknesses, and marriage is a synergistic relationship in which spiritual growth is enhanced because of the differences” (“The Eternal Family,” 113).

Yay!!! Thank you for your compliment =). It felt nice to have someone appreciate something I put together. Thank you! I had to do a little research on natural family planning as I wasn't familiar with the term. I'm not aware that the brethren have any official viewpoint in regards to the method. A method of increasing or decreasing fertility by natural means does however sound like useful information to be aware of. As a guy I'll admit... I wasn't ever taught about a woman's fertility cycle and I doubt I will be unless I specifically seek out such information.

What are the doctrines of the LDS Church in regards to birth control? (I'm only putting quotes here on this one so if you have something you'd like me to add here, please provide the text and citation. New questions can be added if there is a quote brought forward that touches on the subject) Are we to have children? “The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force.” (The Family: A Proclamation to the World) “The first commandment given to man was to multiply and replenish the earth with children. That commandment has never been altered, modified, or canceled.” (Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1969, p. 12) “God has laid upon men and women very sacred obligations with respect to motherhood, and they are obligations that cannot be disregarded without invoking divine displeasure. ... Can she be saved without child-bearing? She indeed takes an awful risk if she willfully disregards what is a pronounced requirement of God” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 288-89) “We are under divine commandment to multiply and replenish the earth and to bring up our children and grandchildren in light and truth.” (Howard W. Hunter, Nov 1994 Ensign) How many children? “Such decisions are between the two of you and the Lord.” (True to the Faith – A Gospel Reference, p. 26) “The Lord did not say to multiply and replenish the earth if it is convenient, or if you are wealthy, or after you have gotten your schooling, or when there is peace on earth, or until you have four children. The Bible says, ‘Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: ... Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them. ...’ (Ps. 127:3, 5.) We believe God is glorified by having numerous children and a program of perfection for them. So also will God glorify that husband and wife who have a large posterity and who have tried to raise them up in righteousness” (Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1969, p. 12) “The Lord has told us to multiply and replenish the earth that we might have joy in our posterity, and there is no greater joy than the joy that comes of happy children in good families. But he did not designate the number, nor has the Church. That is a sacred matter left to the couple and the Lord.” (Gordon B. Hinckley, Cornerstones of a Happy Home, p. 6) “How many children should a couple have? All they can care for! Of course, to care for children means more than simply giving them life. Children must be loved, nurtured, taught, fed, clothed, housed, and well started in their capacities to be good parents themselves. Exercising faith in God’s promises to bless them when they are keeping his commandments, many LDS parents have large families. Others seek but are not blessed with children or with the number of children they desire. In a matter as intimate as this, we should not judge one another” (Dallin H. Oaks, in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 101; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 75) Children how often? What factors are we to consider? What factors are we to not consider? “In all this, however, the mother’s health should be guarded.” (David O. McKay, Gospel Ideals, p. 469). “We seriously regret that there should exist a sentiment or feeling among any members of the Church to curtail the birth of their children. We have been commanded to multiply and replenish the earth that we may have joy and rejoining in our posterity. Where husband and wife enjoy health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity, it is contrary to the teachings of the church artificially to curtail or prevent the birth of children. We believe that those who practice birth control will reap disappointment by and by. However we feel that men must be considerate of their wives who bear the greater responsibility not only of bearing children, but of caring for them through childhood. To this end the mothers health and strength should be conserved and the husband's consideration for his wife is his first duty.” (First Presidency: David O. McKay, Hugh B. Brown, N. Eldon Tanner, Letter to Bishops and Stake Presidents, April 14, 1969) (June 1971 Ensign & May 1971 Ensign) Husband and wife are encouraged to pray and counsel together as they plan their families. Issues to consider include the physical and mental health of the mother and father and their capacity to provide the basic necessities of life for their children. Decisions about birth control and the consequences of those decisions rest solely with each married couple. Elective abortion as a method of birth control, however, is contrary to the commandments of God. (LDS.Org, Birth Control) “The Lord did not say to multiply and replenish the earth if it is convenient, or if you are wealthy, or after you have gotten your schooling, or when there is peace on earth, or until you have four children. The Bible says, ‘Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: ... Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them. ...’ (Ps. 127:3, 5.) We believe God is glorified by having numerous children and a program of perfection for them. So also will God glorify that husband and wife who have a large posterity and who have tried to raise them up in righteousness” (Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1969, p. 12) Additional quotes I want to add "I recall a President of the Church, now deceased, who visited his daughter in the hospital following a miscarriage. She was the mother of eight children and was in her early forties. She asked, “Father, may I quit now?” His response was, “Don’t ask me. That decision is between you, your husband, and your Father in Heaven. If you two can face him with a good conscience and can say you have done the best you could, that you have really tried, then you may quit. But, that is between you and him. I have enough problems of my own to talk over with him when we meet!” So it is clear to me that the decisions regarding our children, when to have them, their number, and all related matters and questions can only be made after real discussion between the marriage partners and after prayer." (Eternal Marriage Student Manuel, Birth Control)

I rewrote what I had originally written. I hope that I'm able to express my feelings and opinions better without offending so many people. Thank you for your responses~ Martain

Thank you, excellent advice =)

Now THAT... thank you. It seems a lot of what we are all disagreeing with and finding offense against is the presentation. When you present it in this manner, I understand your point and it gives me food for thought. Thank you for caring to put it in a polite and non-contentious manner. I should have posted what I said while I was calm and not used it as a way to vent my frustration. Thank you again.

It seems I've offended every women that has read my post. Not a single one has had positive words to offer. I'm sorry we disagree. Modesty is not subjective so why should immodesty be? If I base my perception of immodesty upon the revealed word's of prophets, am I to say that I'm being subjective? Why should I care what some part of the world considers modest? Shall I not instead care what God considers modest. If a baby or child comes up and puts their hands on my face, I won't feel offended in the slightest. If a grown person did so, depending on the area, I would indeed feel offended but I wouldn't feel sexually violated. Why should a woman let a man touch her with his eyes in places she would feel sexually sullied if he were to touch her with his hands? You seem to take exception at my statements. I'm sorry. It seems my opinions are very unpopular.

I'm sorry, I've offended many people it seems in the expressing of my mind. I'm sorry I offended you Jenamarie. It is not my intent and I hope you'll forgive me. I agree with giving all women the respect they deserve. To me, by avoiding looking at them, I'm giving them the respect they may lack for themselves. "A tourist mother and daughter were recently seen in a shoe store, both in short shorts. They sat down and waited to be served. There were two available male clerks but neither appeared to notice them. The manager also observed the waiting females and allowed them to leave the store without being served. He commended his clerks for having the modesty which the women lacked." (Hugh B Brown, You and your marriage p. 63) How would you prefer I handle such a situation? Frank appraisal of their form and figure? Perhaps sizing them up? Staring? They are there and I know that but I don't have to choose to enable such behavior do I? I can choose not to react in such a manner that would cause a women to think that immodesty is good right? It also seems like you were offended by my quote. Yes the it was a book and not official doctrine of the church yet it was written by a prophet of God for the benefit of the saints. I'm sorry you reacted the way you did. You're right Dravin. However I don't think you would feel violated by such either. Any area of the body where you would feel thus violated, perhaps the metric would apply best there? I agree. I can control my impulses and thoughts pretty well but that doesn't mean I like seeing immodesty any less. In fact, the more I am able to control my thoughts and impulses, the less I like immodesty. The shame I feel for them and isn't attributed to any unworthy thoughts in my own mind. Perhaps my discomfort is indeed culture conditioned but that doesn't mean it's wrong. I was once listening to a talk by one of our Latter day Prophets. He indicated that sleeveless shirts and gowns were an abomination in the sight of the Lord. It shocked me. "Really?" I prayed. "An abomination?" The spirit witnessed to me on that day that it is indeed abominable in His sight. I agree. I do control myself. If my sister were to dress immodestly, I wouldn't see her as a sex object yet I would still remain ashamed and uncomfortable in her presence. I... don't understand why you refute me on this. Endowed women are more modest. They have the added benefit of the garment which indicate what parts of the body should remain covered. Perhaps others differ in what they find appealing. Modesty... is appealing to me. Modest IS the hottest. Say an unendowed daughter of God none the less wears temple standards. To me, they're that much MORE appealing. It takes courage to be modest. A woman who values modesty that much is very desirable. No. I have not. I know there was woman who washed his feet but she wasn't a prostitute. She may have committed sins in the past but she had long since repented of them and been washed clean through the atonement of Christ. She was not a prostitute. There is a difference between a person and their sin. One is who they are and and another is what they've done. One can love a person yet still hate and abhor the sin. One can respect a daughter of God and yet still hate and abhor their immodesty and be offended by it. I hold myself to the same standard I set. When I went through the temple I made a covenant to be chaste. I received a garment and instructions on how to wear it. Outside of situations where it isn't reasonable to wear, I am expected to always wear it. This means I don't go jogging down main street topless. This means I don't wear sleeveless shirts. Outside of swimming... is there a (public) situation where the garment can't be reasonably worn? Immodesty is immodesty regardless of whether your male or female. I'm sorry but I disagree. While it's true that many do indeed have low self esteem and feel bad wearing those clothes. Many do not. Many don't even bat an eye at it. It's sad. Really sad. Sin really is sad isn't it? Is self esteem an emotion or an action? Or both? If one wore modest clothing, would this not increase her self esteem as she shows actions to God that she values herself? I think her self esteem would indeed rise. It's really sad that a women will wear such clothes to get attention. While some realize what type of attention they're receiving and sinfully want it, I agree that many do not. They're lonely. Sin never was happiness. Men play a part in this whole situation. The majority enable and encourage such behavior. Lacking righteous chaste men, who else is there to impress? If more women truly knew the effect such dress had on good men... I feel most would not dress that way. The best way to compete with immodesty is by being completely modest. You don't want the attention of those who are attracted to immodest women. I've never heard of the phrase 'peter priesthoods' but I expect you're referring to me. Please understand I'm not scrutinizing your every outfit choice. Women compare themselves to other women. They compete with each other for looks, for fashion, for appearance. Guys don't do that. We really don't compare our visual appearance or compete with each other in that way (yes there are exceptions heh). I have personal guidelines as to what I consider modest and what I consider immodest. It takes little time at all to tell the difference and absolutely no scrutinizing what so ever. If you competed with the women half naked, what type of man are you competing for?

Recently I found myself thinking upon the subject of modesty and feeling saddened. Daughters of God are so beautiful. In my eye they really are God's finest creations. Yet sadly I see more and more of them dressing immodestly. Please, please don't. Why? Why dress immodest? I conclude that for the most part women simply do not understand the effect it has on men. They so seldom come across righteous men that most don't know how such men feel about immodesty. And that's righteous men. I also conclude that for the most part women simply don't understand the effect such attire (or rather lack thereof) has on worldly men. If they did, I think most of them wouldn't dress so. I don't find it appealing. Often I end up simply not looking in their direction yet sometimes you simply can't ignore it. I don't want to see it. I wish they'd cover up. The apostle Hugh B. Brown wrote the following in his book “You and your marriage” (p. 63) "A tourist mother and daughter were recently seen in a shoe store, both in short shorts. They sat down and waited to be served. There were two available male clerks but neither appeared to notice them. The manager also observed the waiting females and allowed them to leave the store without being served. He commended his clerks for having the modesty which the women lacked." I've been told that it isn't right to simply ignore immodest women but I find myself avoiding looking at them all the same. Am I not showing respect by showing the modesty they lack and giving them the privacy they deserve? I think so but I realize that others disagree. There are parts of the body which are sacred and private. There are portions that the Lord has decreed should be covered. Perhaps women feel it necessary to reveal such in order to attract a man yet I don't think they realize what type of man they attract. Have we not been told by prophets that it is immodest to wear low necklines and bare shoulders? That it's immodest to wear form revealing tight clothing? Haven't we been given guidelines as to the length of hems and shorts? What of bathing suits? Why are so many Latter Day Saint women, who should know better, so determined to wear the fashions of the world when it comes to bathing suits? Are they simply not able to afford or find a better alternatives? Can't we make a style of our own? Wouldn't you prefer to wear something like this instead? Don't you find it much more modest? Personally, I find it a whole lot more attractive and appealing. As a man, I want someone who is chaste. Someone modest in dress. Someone virtuous. I'm trying to be so myself. I have jeans that I feel perhaps are too tight and I worry about that even as I know I don't have money to change them. I have a shirt without sleeves but since becoming endowed I choose not longer to wear it or I wear something underneath it first. I've noticed that endowed women are more modest then their non-endowed sisters. Is a physical reminder that powerful? Is being modest that difficult to define? I wish more non-endowed sisters would willingly wear temple standards regardless of whether or not they've had the opportunity to make the covenants. It makes me me really sad to see all these beautiful daughters of Zion whose attire isn't up to LDS standards let alone Temple standards. Page 63-64 also has the following quote from Hugh B. Brown: "We wonder if our girls know what kind of females they imitate when they immodestly expose their bodies to public view because it may be fashionable. They should know of the lewd, sinister, and sensuous designs of such females in these disgusting displays. If they knew the source of some modern fashions, no sensible, self-respecting girl would mimic their authors or risk the implications and deductions of immodest exposure and conduct. Also, if young women know how good men, young and old, react to such exposures, we doubt if they would be so foolish and naive. The immodest revealing of the female form causes the lewd to leer and lust, decent men to blush and protest, while brothers and fathers are embarrassed, offended, and alarmed. Even lewd men have a certain disgust for nude women. The exposing of the uncovered body to public view is like a "for sale" notice indicating "cheap, shopworn, or marked-down goods." In a mercantile establishment, such merchandise generally invites handling and is cheapened and soiled thereby. Decent men looking for wives and choosing mothers for their children, reject the girls who make a public display of their bodies. they want wives who will become exemplars to their own daughters, and they know immodesty is the first step towards unchastity. Modestly indicates moral integrity which is respected by decent people everywhere. All true gentlemen honor and revere modest virgins and saintly mothers." I wish I could tell girls that they are beautiful but that they don't need to dress immodest. That men will love them more and respect them more for dressing modestly. That there are good men out there who appreciate and value modesty. I tried a friend such once and was so discouraged by the scathing response and vile accusations against my character that I don't know if I'll ever do so again. I don't know how to word it in a way that would be received and I wish I did. If I but knew how, I'd be happy to say it. I guess I'll have to wait till I'm an old harmless man first. -Note- Originally I wrote this while I was frustrated and my tone did not come across very well. I received a LOT of slack for it as you'll see below. I also offended many people and I'm sorry for that. I've rewritten it in hopes that my words will bring less... contention and vehement opposition. -End Note- -Note- One response to this indicated that they saw a lack of modesty and humility in my statement. I've pondered my reason for posting this and have come to the conclusion that she was right. I was hoping that someone would validate my feelings and seeking for the esteem of the saints. I didn't write it with the right intent and I don't see the charity. I don't want to write for such reasons and to change I start by confessing and apologizing. I've also rewritten what I rewrote with such intents in mind. Please forgive me for I too am imperfect and in need of people who will be patient while I grow.-End Note-

Good luck Adel! I've been where you've been and I know that the living the Gospel really does bring happiness. Since a lot can happen in two years and this is a new ward, why not start out by meeting with the bishop and starting the path to receiving again a temple recommend? By now you've noticed that the adversary is trying very hard to discourage you from continually attending. Your bishop really will help you in this area if you let him in. They really do have an endowment of charity and you can feel their love. Meet with him and open up your heart. He will strengthen you and help you feel at home in your new ward. (wish I'd seen your post and responded a month ago)

With permission - wanted to share a poem from a friend of mine Yearning - A poem and a prayer I pray unto thee father the longing of my heart For one of thy pure daughters home and family here to start In my blessing thou hast said son find one worthy of thee yet oft the opposite I have asked grant one of whom I'm worthy In my singles ward there are thy daughters many fair yet when I prayed unto thee Lord thou said she is not there Where oh Lord bidst thou I seek I ask thee oft to show I can not find such on my own Oh Lord please let me know Impress upon my heart and mind When face to face I see A daughter holding within her soul the virtues you've put within me An equal to my heart and soul Who seeks to thee delight guide unto me Lord I pray let such find in me matched light I know that I'm not perfect though I seek to so become yet this I know assuredly it takes two to become one Man by his own can not obtain the highest lofty height Of thy kingdom heavenward in which I've placed my sight I'll love her with all of my soul And always faithful be I'll cleave unto her and her alone For all of time and all eternity One daughter fair I seek to find and in the temple wed eternally My worthiness to thee I've shown Please let me start a family As I close now this my prayer I send it to thee above In the name of my Savior dear Whose name is also love

When one factors in the percentage of divorces where the man was either unfaithful, abusive etc as the reason why the woman may request divorce... I would give me at LEAST 50% reduction rate if not more. If I devote myself to my wife and cleave unto her, I see that percentage being even more pronounced. I don't think it's so much that women are wanting and requesting divorce more than men... rather that women these days are less willing to put up with a man's crap. I still believe that I can receive a promise from God that my marriage will last, conditional on my personal obedience to the Gosepl (doing my part and not being the cause of any of her discontent). I simply won't give her any cause to ever desire divorce. While she will still have agency, I think it unlikely that a intelligent & righteous daughter of God would walk away from a loving, caring, respectful, provident husband and father. That small possibility that is remaining, I'll seek personal revelation to eliminate. Have any of the prophets had their first wife divorce them while they were in the office of apostleship (outside of apostasy)? If not, then I don't see why I, or any other man, should have to measure myself under what a wife may do when God had commanded that poligamy be practiced. I've considered it and as far as I'm concerned... one is MORE than enough... Now I simply need to be guided to one of the daughters of God that has a similar attitute and is my equal. Half the battle =)

Personally I haven't been dead set against a prenup. Hearing LDSJewess's comments makes me wonder though. My parents were divorced and my grandparents were divorced. I swore that it would end with me. No matter what happens, I will never divorce my wife. This does mean that yes, I won't get married without God's stamp of approval as I'm simply not wise enough to forsee the future as he does and I need someone with the same commitment to make it work that I have. While I don't want a prenup, I do wnat to set up, in advance, a game plan of what we would do to ensure we don't become a statistic. This would include frank discussion as to the varied reasons for divorce and what we would do in each. By not being the initiator myself I can cut my odds in half. By revelation from God and preparation in advance, I can cut out the odds on the other side of the equation as well. I am NOT going to become a statistic. That's what I'll teach my children. Don't get married without a witness from God that your marriage is approved.

This is sad... very sad. I would take this to your bishop and explain the situation. Ask for his advice and council as to what you should do and then follow it. This may be something where you simply have to give the burden to the Lord. There are things you simply have no power over and rather than let it consume you, you may need to simply ask him to take this burden from your shoulder. Also of need is to ensure that out of all of those councilors mentioned... that one of them be your brother's bishoip.

I second the motion to go and speak with your bishop or temple president in regards to these questions. My understanding is that in absense of the father, the mother presides as head of household. If the father chooses not to exercise this duty as the father of the household, who then shall but the mother?

In my opinion, the answer to your question can be found in the book 'Without Offense - the art of giving and receiving criticism' by Dr. John L. Lund