stormy

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Everything posted by stormy

  1. Are we to assume that the examples you cite above are examples of those things you mention that are supposed to be "eternal and unchanging?" I find none of these things you mention to be "hard questions" and I must agree with someone here that this post is certainly suspect at best, however, for entertainment and the other readers I will respond.The Temple Ceremonies. One of the favorite points of attack by the Antis. Why? Because they know the LDS will NOT go into detail in their efforts to show the Anti false, therefore, most false information put out is not shown in its corrected form. You never having received your endowments do not know from first hand personal experience what changes have been made and to what extent. You do not know if significance or meaning has changed and therefore must rely on the anti's for your information since your Bishop or any other member will not discuss these things with you. For obvious reasons I will not go into specifics regarding the temple ceremonies, however, does change in presentation change the significance and meaning of the ceremonies? I could reinvent the wheel but I won't bother, as my time is limited. In reference to changes in the temple ceremonies I recommend the following article titled "Can Temple Ceremonies Change," by Michael R. Ash. http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Can_...nies_Change.pdf In the Anti's quest to prove the church false they attempt to prove the church racist based on this "curse of Cain," misleading others into believing this to be an LDS creation. Whether done in ignorance or intentional lies I do not know. It's probably a combination of both. The curse of cain theory was not original, nor invented by the LDS. This was around much longer than the LDS faith and was widely believed by Christians worldwide. Does the change in this belief make the Baptists, Methodists, Evangelicals, Catholics, etc false as well? Or is it possibly a man made justification for slavery, discrimination, etc created by man that carried on through out generations by tradition? Here is a wonderful website dedicated to the Black members of the LDS church and it has an incredible detailed history of blacks in the LDS church as well as that of other religions. It's a must read for anyone truly interested. www.blacklds.org Here is an interesting exert from the site: Historical Ignorance, or Race-baiting? Now let us look at McKeever and Johnson's stumbling attempt to pass off centuries of Christian belief in a "curse" as being a uniquely Mormon invention. They ask, "If the Mormon God has removed the curse that was once on the black race, why has he not also removed the mark?"22 Again, let me give McKeever and Johnson a quick spin around the widely available literature on the origins of this unfortunate concept: This interpretation of Noah's curse was no southern invention; indeed, it had been in circulation long before the discovery of America. Even so, it proved especially useful to white masters of the South because they had been put on the defensive by the powerful emancipationist movement.23 The story of Noah's Curse was so ingrained into the orthodox Protestant mind that it was sometimes invoked far from the pulpit. Speaking before the Mississippi Democratic State Convention in 1859, none other than Jefferson Davis defended chattel slavery and the foreign slave trade by alluding to the "importation of the race of Ham" as a fulfillment of its destiny to be "servant of servants."24 Once again, the reader is left to decide whether McKeever and Johnson are completely ignorant of the history of race theory, anthropology, and the centuries-old Christian use of the Bible to justify slavery or if they are simply race-baiting. One is truly forced to ponder this as they selectively use quotes and remove portions that may reflect positively on Mormons. They turn to such sources as little-known "Mormon writers" instead of using authoritative sources that the LDS recognize as accurately representing their beliefs. They relentlessly refuse to deal with modern Church practice and teachings that are well attested to by living leaders, preferring instead to use dated and out-of-context quotes that obviously clash with our modern social sensibilities. Thus, McKeever and Johnson's attempt to use Brigham Young's racist-sounding but unfortunately typical nineteenth-century verbiage as an indictment against the modern Church brings up the question of their intellectual integrity. We have learned from sad experience that when anti-Mormon writers use ellipses, it is most likely not because the information is irrelevant but because there is something which must be removed to keep the picture uniformly bleak and, well, titillating. Three examples of McKeever and Johnson's less than forthright methodology will suffice. The missing portions are reinstated in italics for the reader in the first example: You may inquire of the intelligent of the world whether they can tell why the aborigines of this country are dark, loathsome, ignorant, and sunken into the depths of degradation; and they cannot tell. I can tell you in a few words: They are the seed of Joseph, and belong to the household of God; and he will afflict them in this world, and save every one of them hereafter, even though they previously go into hell. When the Lord has a people, he makes covenants with them and gives unto them promises: then, if they transgress his law, change his ordinances, and break the covenants he has made with them, he will put a mark upon them, as in the case of the Lamanites and other portions of the house of Israel; but by-and-by they will become a white and delightsome people.25 Why is this missing sentence so important that it had to be removed by McKeever and Johnson? This was said in an era in which there was active debate in the scientific and Christian community as to whether all races came from a common ancestor, an argument that was ultimately settled by Darwinism. This sentence leaps out as a declaration that Native Americans are not just descended from Adam and Eve--they are from the favored seed of Joseph. The second example of the intellectual dishonesty of this book is demonstrated by the next variation of their "find the quote" shell game as they leave out a portion of a sermon that again stands out favorably from the Christian practice of the day. McKeever and Johnson give the following portion of one of Brigham's fiery sermons condemning politicians. They offer the reader no background from which they can understand the rhetoric from the leader of a persecuted group watching their security threatened one more time when they are put in the middle of pro-slavery supporters and abolitionists: Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.26 Here is the portion of the sermon that McKeever and Johnson neglect to show the reader, however: If the Government of the United States, in Congress assembled, had the right to pass an anti-polygamy bill, they had also the right to pass a law that slaves should not be abused as they have been; they had also a right to make a law that negroes should be used like human beings, and not worse than dumb brutes. For their abuse of that race, the whites will be cursed, unless they repent.27 Compare this to the views of the founder of American evangelicalism, George Whitefield, who "urged kinder treatment of slaves, but noted that cruelty can have the positive effect of heightening 'the sense of their natural misery,' thereby increasing receptivity to the Christian message."28 Or the stories of "Christian slaveholders, including clergymen, 'brutalizing their slaves' which 'abound in the narratives of former slaves.'"29 A third egregious example of McKeever and Johnson's persistence in misrepresentation is a quote from Joseph Smith. They only tell the reader of this portion: "Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species and put them on a national equalization."30 Yet, Joseph Smith had preceded this remark by saying: They came into the world slaves, mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine off many of those they brush and wait on.31 If McKeever and Johnson are seeking to truly inform and educate the reader concerning Mormonism, why would they not want to disclose this part of Joseph's thinking? In fact, why would they not want to elaborate on Joseph's revolutionary solution for abolishing slavery? Instead of commenting on the revulsion of Mormon leaders towards the widely accepted standard of abuse and cruelty, they choose only to make known the rather common thinking of the day that demanded races remain separate. http://blacklds.org/mormon/priesthood.html As for the "whole Book of Abraham thing being proven false" I anxiously await your factual evidence of this, for to my knowledge this is not the case. Though a strong circumstantial case can be made - there is no factual supporting evidence. When making posts such as yours it is in your best interest, and the interest of the readers for you to cite your reasoning for these claims beginning with where you get the idea that these are supposed to be "eternal and unchanging" and moving on from there.
  2. To say I am no fan of Harry Reid would be an understatement, however, I agree with him at this point in time about the following: ""“The reason for this debate is to divide our society, to pit one against another. This is another one of the president’s efforts to frighten, to distort, to distract and to confuse America.” This Amendment was proposed and pushed knowing well that it would not pass. It is an election year and this is political pandering at it's finest. It was also a means of drawing the American Publics attention from the border issue, which is going to devastate the Republicans this election cycle.
  3. I have a family member that was ex'ed. Our entire life he was the "Spiritual leader" of our family. He was also rather high up in the Church. It was absolutely devastating for him, me and the entire family. It's been many years now and it took some time for him to "straighten things out with the Lord" and he has been in the process of "straightening things out with the Church." It's also sad because he has missed most of his children getting married and he greatly misses his opportunity to do the temple work for our family. What I found most redeemable and hopeful about him was that he was the one that turned himself in. No one would have ever known had he not spoken up and "convicted" himself. I adore him and I can't wait until he is baptized back into the church. When that will be, I do not know. I do know that I will be there to witness that glorious event.
  4. Thank you for the kind welcome.I am currently looking around and familiarizing myself with the board and trying to learn a little about each poster from their posts.
  5. Hello all. I am Stormy. I am a lifer LDS'er, however, it was not until my later years that I actually converted to the church and developed a testimony. I heard about this board from my friend Snow, in another forum. I also had the pleasure of meeting Prisonchaplin in that other forum and if those disagreeing with the LDS belief system on this forum are all like prisonchaplin then I anticipate some high quality individuals and fantastic discussions.