horax

If you read Jesus The Christ, written by James E. Talmage of the quorum of the 12, it does state that Judas had already started following Satan prior to being called as an apostle. He had already chosen which path he was going to follow. Jesus called him to the Apostleship becuase he knew that he had the ability to turn traitor. Now, it also states that Judas was one of the mosmt vehement believers in the Deity of Christ, and that he was turning him over to the Sanhedrin in hopes that Christ would utilize His divine power and show the World his Divinity. In doing this, poeple would believe en masse and as such, Christ would be delivered from the hands of evil. In short, Judas was trying to force Jesus' hand in proving who he was. The error here is twofold: 1) faith would not be required to believe. If Christ were to show the World His powers in a public setting (like calling down 12 legions of angels) nobody would have to believe by Faith. 2) this plan of Judas' was similar to Satans plan in which all would be forced to believe and all would return to God's presence unchecked In short, Judas was doing Satan's bidding. He had previously seen miracles and lived with Christ on a daily basis. He had the Holy Ghost, and his agency and naturally wicked heart was what placed him in the position to **** himself from Eternal progression.

I tend to think that the answer may lie in the fact that once you decide to follow Satan's plan you are in his power. His conscious decision to turn traitor marked him as such and from then on he was a servant of Satan instead of God. When Christ was washing the Apostles' feet, he said they were now clean, "but not all" in reference to Judas. Christ made lots of references to him the night of the Last Supper. Perhaps this is the clue showing that what he did needed to be done, but not necessarily by him. His actions were what caused him to fall.

That very well could be. It enters the whole Roe vs. Wade discussion that will never be decided on this Earth.

Well, he knew there were conspirators out to find and persecute Christ. He might not have known their true intent about killing him, but he knew they were going to arrest, etc. I wonder if he thought Christ would not let it happen since he could, as stated in Matthew, command 12 legions of angels to deliver him from them. Maybe he didn't quite undertstand all the consequences and how they tied togther.

No offense, but the third trimester is not brought into play. What is important is to knwo when a body is created. Does it matter if the body is perfect or a certain age? No it doesnt'. The Lord's plan is for every spirit to receive a body. At conception, the body has been created, no matter how small. Those children who die prior to PHYSICAL birth have rights to those bodies and have been spared of the evils of this world due to their righteousness in the pre-existence. Also, 2 min is still younger than the age of years.

We all know teh story of Judas and how he sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. I have always wondered exactly what his fate woudl be. We see that in Matthew, Judas felt badly when he saw how Jesus was being treated and returned the money. However, when Jesus was not released and the money was not accepted, he killed himself. Would he be more guilty of killing himself and not enduring to the end (and not being able to repent of his action of killing himself in this life) or of fulfilling a prophecy set forth by Jeremiah that one of Jesus' apostles would betray him? Also, one of my seminary students asked me this morning if Judas would be cast into outer darkness as a son of perdition since he walked with Christ and yet denied him. I said I'd do reserach, but I don't think he ever actually DENIED Christ or his teachings. He was presented an opportunity by Satan and he took it (which was wrong). I'm pretty sure all the apostles were tempted at differetn times, but Judas let the thought linger in his mind and eventually it took root in his heart and it ruined him. I have been looking through Jesus the Christ by Talmage as a reference, and I am going to go thorugh it again tonight, but if memory servefs he mentions how Judas is in perhaps the worst state ever due to his betrayal of the Lord. He mentions how you cannot walk a gray line in serving Christ. Either you follow him or you do not...you support God or you support Satan. According to his ideas, Judas might be in big trouble as he walked and talked with Deity and yet chose to serve the Evil One. At that moment, it's highly possible that he damned himself from further progression and would ultimately be cast into outer darkness. Remember, outer darkness is the only place where Eternal Progression is halted. You can progress in the Telestial, Celestial, and Terrestrial kingdoms, but you cannot progress OUT of them. What are your thoughts on this?

I think it depends greatly on the situation and rule in question. I mean, if his companion is saying "dude, let's go to a movei, it's not a bad one." I would view this as a reason to follow the letter of the law and say, "no way, jose." If it's something else, the answer could be different. I have learned that when we follow the church handbook of insturctions in leadership in all areas, the wards thrive more than if they do not. However, we each have a bit of responsibility where we are responsible for ourselves and families, etc. In that regard, the main thing is that the letter and spirit of hte law shoud both be followed if possible. Otherwise, the spirit of hte law is the thing to go by. On my mission I was a spirit of hte law kind of guy, and there's times when that applies. However, in some situations, you must defer to the letter of the law.

Total parallel. It's a good thing we have it.

I can agree with that. I mean, we're not just here to overcome Sin but to control our appetites and learn how to master our bodies, etc. The natural man woudl desire to eat 14,000 calories of food at every meal...but that's not quite what God intended, was it? I would say the Natural Man are the natural impulses of the flesh that we need to control with our spirit. Satan definitely can throw temptations that are harder to control due to their 'natural nature.' I agree with you on this.

So woudl it be a sin just to see the beautiful girl? The sin arises with the thought that follows. I do agree that the Devil would enhance things, etc., but to get to the root of the issue I keep seeing that quote that Satan is the father of all evil and sin. I guess we just need to wear blinders so we can't see the women...or move to Nebraska or something.

Right...I believe we're both right to a degree. I do'nt know if I'd say the key to his binding was the righteousness of the people, though. I mean, sure there have been instances when the righteousness of the poeple was such that he had no power over them for awhile. the difference stated above is that Christ will physically and personally reign. I tend to think that is the main reason he will have no power at all to do anything. No unclean thing can dwell in ht epresence of God. Whlie Jesus is here on Earth, Satan will not be able to be here, too. I think the good thing is that it will eventually happen. Let's hope we can all be righteous enough to experience this form the good side, if you will. :)

So what is the accepted definition of 'natural man?' Woudl it be one who is not enlightened by the Holy Ghost, or is it one who does not actively search the things of God? I think once we have that hammered out we'll be able to come to an accord here. I mean, we know the natural man is an enemy to God, and we know that Satan is an enemy to God. Is it possible that the natural man is merely a reference for Satan's influence on man in general?

I was being funny...or attempting to be.

that's what he wants you to think.

Satan has never been bound since his 'banishment' to Earth for lack of a better term. Furhtermore, in Mormon Doctrine, Bruce R. McConkie breaks down teh millennium into different events: 1) council at Adam-Ondi-Ahman precedes millennium 2) second coming ushers in millennium 3) first resurrection ushers in millennium 4) righteousness will not hasten millennium 5) destruction of wicked as millennium commences 6) day of judgment commences millennial era 7) renewal of Earth to paradisiacal state 8) millennial binding of satan 9) millennial attainment of peace on Earth 10) Millennial changes in the animal kingdom 11) mortality continues during millennium 12) death, sorry, disease cease during millennium 13) all things revealed in our time 14) nonmembers of church during millennium 15) millennial conversal of all to the truth 16) millennial kingdom of god on Earth 17) temple work during the millennium 18) end of millennium and of the Earth I'd like to focus on #8, the millennial binding of Satan. Bruce R. McConkie states: When we speak of the binding of Satan in connectdion with teh millennium, we mean that he will be bound during that era, that his powers will be limited AFTER taht day commences, and NOT that men will turn to righteousness so as to tie the hands of Satan, thereby bringing millennial conditions to pass. The plan does not call fo rmen to turn voluntarily to righteousness thereby causing the thousand year era of peace to commence. Rather, the millennium will be brought about by power; th ewicked will be destroyed; and those only will remain on earth who are sufficiently righteous to abide the day of the Lord's coming (mal. 3; 4), a day when the elements shall melt with fervent heat and all things become new. However, Satan shall be bound (d and c 43:31; 45:55; 84:100; 88:110-111) and for a thousand years he "shall not have power to tempt any man." (d and c 101:28). ... It was this concept that that caused Nephi to write, speaking of hte period AFTER THE COMMENCEMENT of the millennium, that: "Becuase of the righteousness of his people, Satan has no power; wherefore, he cannot be loosed for the space of many years; for he hath no power over the hearts of the poeple, for they dwell in righteousness, and the Holy One of Israel reigneth." (1 Ne. 22:26)" ============ I think the key here is that he will have NO power to tempt, and in the past he did. But Nephi makes an interesting point in that two conditions need to occur: 1) people need to be righteous 2) Holy One of Israel needs to reign personally So condition #2 was not met after Christ was visiting the Americas, so he could tempt, but they didn't listen. That's the difference here. In the millennium, both conditions will be satisfied and he will literally lose his power for 1000 years.