Dark_Jedi

As others have said, of course you can go back. Don't try, do. Find and talk to your current bishop. Are you sure you were actually formally disfellowshipped? Sounds odd.

Not a commandment that I'm aware of. The scriptures do contain references to the missionaries travelling "without purse of scrip" which would imply that they will be taken care of. How that happens is up to God.

OP here. I did read the posts yesterday, but couldn't reply. So here goes: @Finrock: Based on what little is posted here, you really can't understand the depth of what is happening inside of me. I really haven't gone into detail about what was happening for the period of time when I was remaining faithful (a period of about 3 years, by the way) or the intervening time and was still devoid of God's help. Sure, I have chosen not to have faith because it wasn't working - this is part of the reason I don't go to church, as well (the main reason being I can't sit and listen to people who don't know what they're talking about). And during this eight years I have reached out (my wife and I have been to counseling regarding this) and I believe it was a sincere, faithful reaching out (in fact there is a well-known scripture in the BOM that is very similar to what I have said repeatedly). PM me and I will tell you where to send the million. @Mute: No, name removal won't solve all of my problems and will undoubtedly create new ones. But it may help this internal conflict that tears me apart (I can relate to your expressions about being totally lost and alone). I've looked at those exMormon sites as well, not much there that relates to me and filled with those who never believed to begin with (and I agree much of what's there is likely not truthful). As I stated to Finrock, it's not like I haven't opened the scriptures or prayed in the last 8 years - I have often done so, and nothing changes. Your second quote wasn't by me, it was written by someone in answer to me. I haven't had experiences like that (or yours - bizarre), but based on the experiences I have had, I believe that most church leaders are wholly uninspired (or perhaps just extremely cowardly). Everyone's experiences with the Spirit and personal revelation is different, and emotion (like those felt during a movie or music) plays a part in that experience. For me, there was a distinct difference in the movie type emotion (I am a huge Star Wars fan, as you might guess) and the spiritual link I felt when I was baptized, married, etc. This was different, and much stronger than emotion alone. That said, and putting that all together, that's one of my huge doubts - how do I now really know what's the Spirit and what isn't? If all of the stronger, unique feeling I had was the Spirit, then God set me up for that life changing event - which doctrine teaches God wouldn't do. If I misinterpreted it, then how am I to know I didn't misinterpret everything else? @Anddenex: Thanks again for the insightfulness. I did qualify my statements with an explanation that I was referring to life here being short. Please also understand the domino effect I have alluded to - if God really did just create us and let us go, there is no need for a Savior because there was no fall and there is no sin, hence whatever afterlife there is is (at least) very different from church teachings, and so on and so on.... And it didn't say what I believe applies to all who have suffered - I specifically said those who have suffered withdrawal for an extended period (similar to mine). I don't know anyone who has experienced a drought of the Spirit like this. I, too, know many people on both sides of the tracks as far as suffering and activity/faithfulness. @ztodd: Simply saying you aren't judging doesn't make it so. While you say you aren't judging you go on to call me to repentance, state that this is of my own doing, and accuse me of not noticing God's attempts. That said, I do admit that I sometimes have a problem with forgiveness, but not in general, in this specific instance, though, yes - but I have made progress (but I'm not there yet). This is of my doing - but because I followed what I believed was an unmistakable impression from God to do what I thought he wanted me to do - I didn't particularly want to do it. And, honestly, don't you think over an 8 (really 11) year period if there was one of those miraculous little incidents I couldn't have helped but notice? I have never rejected a visit, phone call, letter, or email from any member of the church, and I have never been dismissive of them or argumentative in any way. Some of them have listened to me (I don't open up fully to people during one, short contact) and I have always politely listened to them - unlike here with total strangers where I do offer rebuttals. I do read scriptures (not regularly), I do look at the Ensign, I do catch General Conference, I do use the church websites. How much more open (and clearly ready) can I be? (Don't even go there with go to church - the answer clearly is not there.) To all (especially those who wonder why I'm turning to strangers): I lurked here for awhile before I registered and posted. I came to the conclusion that maybe strangers were who I needed to turn to because my "friends" and church "leaders" for whatever reason are unable or unwilling to be forthright. I understand that - they are unwilling and unwanting to offend, or perhaps just afraid of what I will say (which is baseless, I might add). I do appreciate those who have been sincere and courageous here. Quite honestly I have gotten more from this experience than I expected, and I did expect more of those pat answers than I have gotten (I am thankful to those who have resisted the urge and have ignored the others for the most part).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and insights today. I have a soccer game to watch with a goalie and a midfielder to cheer. I'll check tomorrow.

I don't know whatthe Savior went through. I know what the scriptures say, and apparently he suffered greatly in the garden, and I have no doubt the torture of the crucifixtion was not fun for anyone. In the bigger picture, I'm not sure there is/was a Savior or that one is necessary. If I'm right and we have a diest version of God as opposed to the LDS verion of God there would be no purpose in a Savior. Like I once believed in an LDS version of God, I once believed in the Savior - I can't say I do today. Either way, my experiences are mine and his are his and yours are yours, God or not. And what if? What if I'm right and it's a diest God? That's exactly the issue. I already believe I wasted a good portion of my life on the church and church work (not to mention the tithes and offerings). Would you waste all that effort on any other what if? Should I invest in a sinking stock because it might go up? What if it doesn't? What if it is a diest God? What if there's no God? Are you just hedging your bets? I was born Catholic, maybe I should become an active Catholic just in case they're right. Or maybe the Jews are right? Or the Muslims? What if?

I think I get it. Yes, I have done as you say, and I have experienced the child being upset with me for not helping when I could have. I have experienced the opposite, as well, where I tried to help but was rebuffed until such a time as the child suffered the consequences of the actions. I certainly am far from divine, and I know that time only exists for us. But I also have never withdrawn myself from my children for 20% of their lives (10/50) nor 1/3 of their lives (10 years of the 34 of my adult life). Probably most of the people who have felt this withdrawal for an extended time aren't talking to members of the church about their experience. They're probably just living lives of blissful inactivity or just went ahead and decided none of it was true and had their names removed or committed sin that led to excommunication. That's why I think members don't get it. They haven't experienced it, nor do they know people who have experienced it because those people aren't visible.

I appreciate your comments, Brenda, and thank you for reading through the thread. I too, believe God does not do things to people, but allows things to happen. The whole thing that started this is very complex, and too complex to explain here. Let me just say this about it and I think it may help you and others to understand a little more clearly where I am coming from with that thought track. In 2000, with a fair amount of sacrifice on my part and on the part of my young family, I completed an education sequence (beyond the master's level) that would allow me to enter into the administrative end of my line of work. I was a bright and shining upcoming star (for those reading the thread, I'll do the math, I was 40). I secured and completed my necessary internship and was hired by the organization where I completed the internship (not unusual). The following year the place reorganized, and I still had an adminisitrative position with the same pay level, but not exactly what I wanted to do. Nevertheless, I was happy there and intended to remain. I was actively serving in the church, my wife stayed home with the children, things really were like I thought they were supposed to be, and if asked at that time if I would change anything in my life the answer would have been an emphatic "NO!" Then I saw an ad in the paper for a position at a nearby company for the job I actually wanted. Seeing as I was happy where I was, I decided to pray about it with the possibility that this might be what I was supposed to do. I felt very strongly - and let me emphasize that - that I should pursue that position. I have equated this feeling with some of the most profound spiritual experiences of my life (baptism, temple marriage) - it was that strong, despite the fact that I actually did have some misgivings about it and my boss vehemently tried to talk me out of it. I was, however, determined to do what I thought God wanted me to do. I interviewed with three other candidates, and quite literally blew them away - I was far and away the best candidate and was hired. What I didn't know at the time (although others, including my former boss, did) was that this company had someone in house they were grooming for this position and just needed a place holder until he was ready. That happened in less than 2 years, the last part of which were filled with lies and innuendo by this group of aforementioned evil doers that damaged my reputation, and, when finally fired made me all but unemployable in that field. That's only the beginning - there's far more deeper and complex issues the followed. But it is the root of the issue. God knew this was going to happen when I was inspired to do this. I was happy where I was and have no doubt I would still be there today had I not been inspired to do that - again, with God undoubtedly knowing the outcome. So did God do this to me? The argument culd be made that yes, he did, or no, that I followed my agency. It could be argured that I mistook that feeling or that it was a deception by Satan. (If that's true, than how do I know I didn't mistake it at the first missionary dicussion, or baptism, etc.?) And I wouldn't have done this without God's approval. Again, there is much more that happened after this that led me to where I am today, but in the first part I remained active and confident that God would fix the problem, I am now neither active, nor confident that God fixes any problems. And if asked now I would have a whole list of things I would have done differently in my life, including joining the church itself.

Thanks for sharing your story. I don't doubt this happened and while I'm not sure if it really was God that did this (my own dichotomy - I was trying to find this word earlier), but you are sure. That's such a huge part of why I am where I am. That God that you believe in did this for you - a small little thing like checking a PM lead to a life changing event for you. I used to believe in that same God. But that God, the LDS God, is fair and loving to his children. I have heard so many similar stories. But here's the thing - nothing like that has happened in my trial. I know my time is not God's time and so forth, but it's been years - a good chunk of my mortal life. I'm 52 - don't think I shared that, but I could live 52 more years or 52 more seconds - either way, my time is limited. I think some of you understand that I have been waiting for such a thing to happen. I would like nothing more than to believe in that same God you do - the one I used to believe in. But alas, the dichotomy - that God hasn't inspired someone to check their PM, or put me in the right place at the right time to meet that one person, or inspired that one person to say that thing that clicks, or caught my eye with that Ensign article that makes me go "Wow" and on and on. I thought he would. You can believe in that God - it happened to you. I used to and want to, but that God is not active like that in my life. And since he's not, the conclusion has to be the other side of the dichotomy. I can't believe in the same God you do because I haven't had the experiences you have - so God (in my view) must be on the other side of the dichotomy because the LDS God would not do that to anyone. The other end of the dichotomy is the uninvolved God that I have come to recognize. And do you see how much baggage this carries with it? If God is uninvolved (the deist version of God), then baptism, Joseph Smith, the church itself, prayer, a Savior, and so much more, are all unnecessary. I've been brought to tears writing this because that's not the God I loved, but that God is not there.

That's what my wife used to say. But you're wrong, I have clearly demonstrated that I do not have the faith required to endure to the end. Granted, the test may not be over, but I have nonetheless failed it. Hence the original question. I wouldn't be asking if I did have the faith. Don't confuse knowledge with faith.

Good advice, and I do spend a fair amount of time helping and serving others - especially since I have some time on my hands while unemployed. I do find pleasure in serving others and doing good. But being unemployed (and pretty much unemployable) is probably not the best way for God to show his love for me. I get it already, I failed the faith test. Hence it's easier to believe in the God I believe in as opposed to one you believe in. The one you believe in wouldn't do this.

No, I actually am beyond caring what happens to those people. Do I think the guy who died of lung cancer at 49 after not smoking a day in his life deserved it? Yep! I don't think I seek justice for them now (it's been awhile, after all), but I do seek mercy for me. I don't disagree that bitterness and an unforgiving attitude likely do stand in the way of my progression. I do work on this, and some of it has just gotten better over time. Also, God should be aware of these feelings and how I have struggled with them (if prayers are really heard). This was a deep, deep wound that is slow to heal, but I try. The trying is apparently not good enough. Or, God doesn't care, in which case it doesn't matter.

I think that you are one of the few that can begin to relate to my feelings, I think I can relate to yours. I think Anddenex can also relate - his situation is more similar to mine that yours as I don't have to deal with physical afflictions on the same level as you. I do have a problem with forgiveness, probably my biggest fault. I have worked on it and continue to work on it, but forgiving these people isn't goingto happen anytime soon. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

Only one was a member of the church (future stake president, actually), and he's dead. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

The stake president wasn't inspired, either - I contacted him. He did follow up, which is how I know he told the bishop to come (while apologizing for telling him to come when I asked him not to contact the bishop). When I contacted the stake president, I asked him not to share my thoughts with the bishop and we talked about the whole inspired thing and God really caring, etc. That's why I was surprised the bishop initiated contact. In his apology, the stake president said he thought it better to share with the bishop that I needed a visit, although he said he didn't share anything else. So the stake president broke my trust (human foible) and the bishop was not totally honest in his contact. I could let that go if I had heard from either since, but I have not. For the record, they are both aware that I recently became unemployed again.

I had this discussion with my home teacher (now a counselor in the stake presidency) at the time when I was still active. We'd love to think that. He said essentially the same thing you just said. So, because they wronged me in this life, because of my witness against them in the next life (or on judgement day or whenever) they will not be afforded the opportunity to hear the gospel, be baptised and receive their temple blessing by proxy, and enter the clestial kingdom? Is that really what the church teaches?

I don't have (nor desire) a home teaching route - I'm a known apostate, after all. You have to admit, it's pretty difficult to present a messge about basic beliefs of the church that I don't believe in, and it's a little awkward for the head of house when they ask me to pray and I refuse because I don't believe in it. And I do associate with members of the ward, I am invited and go to their non-church social functions, and they are invited, and come to ours. They'll come and help me make repairs on my home, if asked, and they (at least intially) joined in fasting and praying. Other than that (the assigned home teacher who rarely comes) there is very little movement on either side. Could I do more? Sure. But so could they. At least I have an excuse - I am admittedly uninspired. I don't think you understand the depth of my feelings.

I was going to do the multiquote thing, but I can't figure out how I had a heart to heart with my 18-year-old in August as he was preparing to go to BYU. I apolgozed to him for being a poor father, which brought him to tears (he never cries). Through his sobbing he told me how he respected me more than anyone else inthe world, and that of all the dads he knew, my expressed love and support for him was eons ahead of them and that there could not be a better father. I wish that I were as good a husband as I am a father, but I do work at it. Going to church has little to do with how good a father one is to his children or husband is to his wife (althogh I know it bothers her that I don't go and it hurt her when I told her I was considering name removal). I figure they made the right decision in Second Hand Lions also (as did the mom), and while we don't ahve a lion buried in the garden, I wouldn't mind being buried there. Alas, I have an inherited cemetary plot, so they know where to bury me.

Indeed, in the beginning that was the only question, why has God withdrawn and why are my prayers and fasting not being answered? Years of the same old same old have deepened that question to a serious doubt (again, doubt isn't the right word). And I understand the experiences of Jesus inthe garden, Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail, etc. Of note is the relatively short time these individuals had to endure this withdrawal, however. Jesus was a matter of hours, and he full well knew that he was doing what he was supposed to be doing and what was happening HAD to happen. Jospeph Smith was a matter of a few weeks, and while we can't assume he had the same resolute belief that what was happening was supposed to happen, his struggle ended with a major scriptural revelation. It's been over 8 years. I would like to address the trial of faith. I thought that in the beginning, also, this is just a trial. I had expectations. I knew what was happening wasn't supposed to be happening, that this was a bad thing perpetrated by evil people and happening to a good person. I whole heartedly believed (with all my heart, might, mind and strength) that God could and would fix it. I did have faith in him and in the redemptive power. As time went on, though, I began to recognize the weakness of my faith. I realized that I was failing the test. I realized I must not really have the faith I needed, and as a result I became more resolute and attempted to increase my faith. This was to no avail. What happened to me was to the benefit of the evil people (one of who was a church member) who perpetrated it - they're still benefitting, but am I stil being tried. If it were a trial, didn't the God who who knows and loves me know what the outcome would be and the effects it would have onme and my family? Didn't he see this day? Did he not know when I realized the weakness of my faith and attempted to fix it? I know his time is not my time, but it's been 8 years, and there have been profound - even eternal - effects. I came to realize that if this was a test, it proved it's point - I did lack faith, I admitted so and expressed humility, but apparently the test wasn't over. So was it really a test? The evil people still benefit from the evil they did (the member is actually dead), and will someday have the opportunity to hear the gospel and accept it and end up in the celestial kingdom - but I, if I stay on my current path, will not. Wasn't I the one doing what I was supposed to do? That's how I came to the realization that God really doesn't intervene in our lives. This either was a trial of faith designed to increase my faith and understanding or it was just a worldly happening that God neither knew nor cared about. What a dilemma of thought! Admittedly, I am a fairly black and white person, but this really came down to black or white in my mind. Either the God I had loved and trusted and who I thought loved me allowed this evil for my own improvement, or God was ignorant and uncaring of the situation. I was heartbroken and chose the latter, because the first makes no sense.

You're right, Backroads. I don't discount the fact that God and Moroni may very well have appeared to Joseph Smith. Only he knows what he experienced. Likewise, I don't discount most of what President Monson says. His endless stories tell us of his experiences. They're real. But nobody else, including him, can speak for anyone else's experiences, nor can they speak from lack of the experience. I am pretty confident that Pres. Monson has not experienced a deep trial of faith nor has he likely to have experienced a significant withdrawal of the spirit. I am flabbergasted at people who judge others as not being Christian. There is no way in the world for anyone to know whether or not someone else is Christian. Some people obviously are not and will tell you so. But if someone says he or she is Christian, the only ones who know that for sure are himself or herself and God.

OP here. Thank you for sharing your mostly thoughtful insghts. Thank all of you also for not assuming or inferring I have committed some awful sin. Indeed, I have not. I keep the Word of Wisdom, Law of Chastity, don't look at porn, etc. My worst sin is probably the occasional white lie. Thinking about it, I probably live the gospel better than many who are quite active. I will respond to those posts which I think deserve a response: @Anddenex, you are extremely insightful. Thank you for not bringing up Job, I obviously do not have the faith of Job. I had not really considered Joseph as an example, and now will do so. @Loudmuth Mormon, I'm not sure that I think God is selfish, but the rest of that part is correct. My point of view is much more in line with the deists. And I have seen Signs, maybe I'll have to see it again. @Slamjet, I'm not sure what you mean with the comments about being neutral. I think I do understand there will be impacts, but those will be mostly within my family since I essentially have no friends at church (stop going to Church and you will quickly find out who your friends are). I gave my major concerns (answers to prayers, God's involvement in personal lives, revelation), but these create many other questions. For instance, without personal revelation how does one know the truth of the Joseph Smith story? This is pretty deep because revelation is so closely related to emotions - hence the doubt about revelation. @MarginOfError, I don't know why God stopped speaking to me, nor why he set up the circumstances that lead to today. Without going into details, this was not something God simply allowed to happen, it was something that was deliberate, and while I understand God won't interfere with an individual's free agency, he could have fixed the situation after the fact - which I fully expected. The real disbelief came despite the fact I was active and doing what I was supposed to do, the heavens closed and have remain closed. I already feel different, and have for a long time. @JosephP, thank you for giving your thoughts without the influence of the thoughts of others. I have no doubt you believe what you have said based upon your own experiences. Based upon my experiences, both God and the church will indeed turn their backs. I might expect such could happen with imperfect humans in the church, I did not expect it from God. @Skippy740. living in an area where Mormons are a very small minority, it is easy to see the blessings people have whether they are Mormon or not. As stated above, I do live the gospel, but I don't believe I would be better off living it or not. I see people all around me who don't, some of which are better off and some who are worse off. Lastly, Second Hand Lions is one of my favorite movies and one of the few I own. All of those things in the quote are true, and most people who live that quote are not LDS (although most LDS also live it). @Applepansy, you're insights seem most closely related to my own. My trials have been different, but the questions are the same. I am sorry that you have had to endure this pain and the other trials you have had. I wish you could share your experience of God getting your attention, because I have been inactive for 8+ years and he has failed to get my attention in this time. I would like to understand your insights into this attention. For what it's worth, I do recognize there is a God, and I am especially appreciative of the beauty of the earth - that's how I know there is a God. Whether there is or isn't a God is not the question. @LiterateParakeet, I was expecting someone to bring up the bishop. My bishop is an interesting character. When I became inactive he was a counselor, but he has been bishop for around 4 years. We sometimes encounter one another socially (our kids are involved in similar sports and music activities and I do go to some gatherings where Mormons are present). He usually tries to avoid me, and if that's not possible (I sometimes make it hard to avoid me on purpose), he'll usually simply be very cordial and move off as quickly as possible. I have met with him once during this time, which was earlier this year. Surprisingly he initiated this contact and came to see me at my home, giving me a line about how he was concerned about me and had been inspired to come visit. I expressed to him at that time, among othet things, how a change in home teachers might be good for me, which he immediately did. Turns out the new home teacher has been worse (he's been here twice in 9 months), and despite the bishop asking if he could stop by every couple months or so, I have not seen or heard from him since. I understand the church is made up of imperfect humans, but the least God could do is inspire his servants to take some interest in my well being. I'm not looking for a sign, but God if really did care and revelation exists, wouldn't someone (bishop, stake president, home teacher, high priests group leader, ANYONE) have been inspired to take a real interest? @rameumptom, no offense intended, but those excuses about prayer are just that. And you know as well as I that they are contrary to what is taught about prayer in scripture. That said, here's the problem with ignoring the doubts. Church is filled with people who say just the opposite. That's why I don't go, and it's why I walked out of the room during both President Eyring's and President Monson's talks at General Conference. These people don't know what they're talking about. Their experiences may well bear up what they say, but words like never and always are absolute, and their experiences are not my experiences. I cannot question anyone's testimony of any particular doctrine because I don't know what they have felt. I do know what I have felt, and I have felt a withdrawal of God and his spirit. If you (not you personally) have not, you don't know what it's like. It is very difficult to sit in church or class and listen to people talk about things they really don't know about.

I'll try to be brief, but am happy to answer questions or give more detail to those who sincerely want to help. I have been a member of the church for 31 years, but have been inactive for the last 8 years. Prior to that I was very active. I served a mission & married in the temple. I have served in the bishopric, been YM president, and Gospel Doctrine teacher. We have 4 children, 2 attending BYU. A chain of incidents 8 to 9 years ago caused me to have some serious doubts about some basic church teachings - doubt is not the right word, I don't think there is an English word. Essentially, I do believe in God, but I do not believe he knows and cares about all of us. Based on experiences others have had and shared, I have no doubt they believe differently than I do, but based on my own experiences I do not see God's hand in my life nor do I see that he cares about my well being or the well being of the vast majority of people. Very closely linked to this is that I don't believe that God does indeed answer parayers. Again, he might answer some people's prayers, but not mine and probably not those of most people I know, including those of my wife. And finally, also related, I don't believe in personal revelation nor that all (or even most) church leaders are called of God nor inspired by him. Yes, name removal is a selfish thought. I really struggle with these unbeliefs, and believe I would find peace for myself were I not affiliated with the church (while hurting those I love). The church is full of wonderful people and I have no desire to hinder anyone else, including my active family members, from freely practicing their beleifs. I am not anti-Mormon, but I probably am an apostate. I would never undertake, however, to say anything negative about this or any other Christian church. So having come to this point of considering name removal, and based on the brief explanation above, why shouldn't I have my name removed? What value does the church bring to me and vice versa?