Dark_Jedi

We all have more courage when we're at least somewhat anonymous! And I wouldn't say most of what is spoken there sits well - that's why I don't go. But your point is well taken about not listening to those who don't have a clue and are essentially parrotting that which they think they are supposed to say, or perhaps for the more sincere, that which they hope or want to be true. Interesting side note, my son came home yesterday talking about a discussion they had in Gospel Essentials class. Seems two brethren got in a slightly heated discussion regarding Adam's transgression as opposed to it being a sin. The teacher, a long time member and former bishop in another ward, insisted that Adam & Eve sinned and he apparently had no concept of the idea of transgression. Despite the ward mission leader's attempt to actually explain transgression, he insisted on referring to it as sin and argued the point. Sadly clueless.

Actually, saying I haven't been inside the church in 10 years is not correct - I have attended a few activities and I do go drop off/pick up the boys from Scouts, etc. Also understand that I have known both the bishop and the HPGL for over 25 years - the amount of time I have lived here. Doing the math you will figure out I was active for about 15 of those years - very active, having served as a counselor in 2 bishoprics, YM president, and Gospel Doctrine teacher. I'm not actually concerned about the bishop being rude, as I said, he is a nice guy and actually quite timid - which is why I think he has never asked me anything. If he, or anyone else who wasn't just being nosey were to ask, however, I would tell them - that has been the criteria all along, they need to ask, I don't go around trashing the Church or its teachings, and the nosey lady isn't going to find out, either. I may, however, be tempted to raise a stink to those who might say "Oh we've missed you so much...." Really? You missed me so much that you called, came to visit, or emailed me sometime in the last 10 years - funny, I don't recall anyone doing that. (I did such a thing in the supermarket to that comment one time.) Anyway, thanks for your comments and support - I'm still only on the verge of giving it a try, I'm not sure I will yet.

Thank you Loudmouth_Mormon, Roseslipper & Gretchen for your responses. Please be aware, Roseslipper, that I do not mean to offend you or in anyway demean what you have said, but comments like yours are exactly why I don't go to church. You really have no idea what you're talking about. Your experiences are yours and yours alone, as mine are mine and mine alone. Mine have been very different from yours. I'm sure you are sincere in your belief that God loves everyone and knows them better than any human, including oneself, etc., but that's all it is - your beliefs (admittedly shared by many others). I believe differently, and I believe the church errs in teaching such things (although I am not actually sure they can be classified as doctrine, which could be part of another discussion e.g. what things that are taught in church are actually doctrine as opposed to "teachings of men"). So let's get back to the question, and in doing so address some of what Loudmouth said. Please help me clarify in my own thinking: It would be OK in at least some (perhaps most) wards/stakes for someone like me to attend Sacrament Meeting only, devoid of participating in other meetings and activities and not holding a calling and not being assigned home teaching? Even in a small eastern ward (as distinguished from a small Utah ward which is likely larger than a large eastern ward)? Even for many years? Because it has been over 10 years already, and these things are no closer to resolution then than they are now and going to Sacrament probably isn't going to change that positively from the point of view of the Church. Finally, just a side note to Loudmouth. I do appreciate that I would be welcome to hang out with you and your family, and we do have a couple friendly families in our ward who do likewise. I do have a home teacher, although he rarely comes and has never asked about my feelings (so I haven't told him). My HP group leader has asked and never returned - although he did seem to understand where I was coming from. Likewise, my bishop has never asked, I've met with him only once and frankly think he's a very poor excuse for a bishop (although he is a very nice person) and the epitome of an uninspired leader (as was his predecessor, although he was less of a nice person).

You illustrate the point very well. You believe God knows all likely based on what you are taught in church. I believe that if what is taught in church is correct, God does know all and likewise would, as a loving Father in Heaven, do what is necessary (and it is quite simple, actually) to bring back his child in response to the pleas of that child and other children. An alternative point of view is that God does know all, but chooses not to act (despite church teachings that he will/would). And yet another alternative is that God does, indeed, not know all and/or care about all things. Of course I could go on and on with alternative points of view. So from your point of view, and please understand I am not attempting to be argumentative, God does know what it would take. Why, then, from your perspective, does he not do so? (And I must give a caveat to you - you must answer this from an understanding that said child actually is attending church, is temple worthy, holds a calling, etc. - because in the beginning that was the case).

Essentially two things. First, I don't necessarily doubt the Gospel itself, which is (or should be) the core doctrine of the Church. Of course, many other churches teach that Gospel as well, and they all have other doctrinal attachments like Mormonism does. And while other churches do not generally have members testifying of a "sure Knowledge" (that they don't actually have) of things like answers to prayer, etc., I do not feel comfortable in them, either, and were I to attend a different church I would also not participate - but participation expectations are far different in other churches. Second, through this time I have been inactive, my family has been active (with the exception of very brief periods of my now adult daughter). If you're asking why I have any desire to come back, I don't know. I do know it has nothing to do with any inspiration or prompting of the spirit. God is not working in any mysterious ways. Following what Mormons are taught, it would be presumed that God knows what would bring me back to activity and would through some means bring about the "miracle" or whatever to make that happen. Whether God knows them or not, I know them, and they're not happening.

Thanks, livy111us. I am aware of the FAIR Conference and Michael Ash's Shaken Faith Syndrome and would have attended the conference were I in the West. I eagerly await the posting of the addresses, thatnk you for the link.

A brief background: I experienced a life changing incident several years ago that changed by view of God, the Church and Church doctrine. This incident involved both members and non-members of the Church, but became more complicated due to the actions of members. I have not been to church in over 10 years. I do not believe most prayers are answered (almost none, actually), I do not believe in personal revelation, I believe most local Church leaders are wholly uninspired (related to the above), and the jury is out on General Authorities (but they're likely not inspired, either). Joseph Smith's first prayer may have been answered, and he may or may not have been a prophet - the same can be said for his successors. I am not a fan of the current president. I don't go to church because I can't bear sitting there listening to people talk about things they actually know nothing about - they really "know" very little (although I think they are sincere and probably actually believe and want to "know"). That said, is there room in the Church for people like me? I recognize there is a difference in doctrine and what is taught as doctrine, and I recognize it is acceptable, even somewhat encouraged, to have questions. Were I to return to Church, I would not participate in Sunday School or priesthood meeting (I'd leave after Sacrament Meeting), and I may leave the room during some talks/testimonies. I would very likely not accept a calling, offer prayers or speak in meetings, etc. Is there a middle ground where my views (which I keep to myself unless specifically asked) and the general views of the Church coexist? I apologize for the length of this post, but I wanted to give the reader an understanding of my position.

I don't think the OP is talking about the loan. I think the question is about federal grants (Pell). The post says there was a loan AND "aid."

The simple answer: Do what you feel is right. I'm not saying you should ask, but if you did you'd find some people did tithe financial aid and scholarships and some did not. You do what you feel is right . By the way, if you were to ask your bishop that's the advice he should give you.

I wholeheartedly agree. While some people do leave because they were offended in some way or because they aren't living Church standards and/or keeping the commandments, there are also those who leave because they have serious unanswered gospel questions or disbeliefs. I am currently inactive (in that I don't attend church, but keep the commandments) and have been for several years. To wit, I do not believe prayers are answered and have very serious doubts about revelation, especially personal revelation. You make a good point about the community and security, which is especially important to those of us who live in areas where there are not many members. A lack of that community feeling and belonging ("feeling the love" if you will) can indeed be of great influence, but for many is not the key to why they stay or leave. (It bugs me to no end when I run into a member at the supermarket and he or she tells me how much they miss me. Really? You know where I live & you know my phone number - where have you been for the last 10 years? You really expect me to believe you miss me?) No amount of you "testifying" that prayers are answered, God loves us all, etc., has any affect on me - I'm not "hard hearted," but I don't feel those things.

I do appreciate your thoughts, JudoMinja, but I'm not sold. For the most part, those things you mention aren't blessings, they're just the way things are. My neighbor (and his wife), for example, goes to the nearby casino every Saturday night. They limit what they spend, and find enjoyment in doing so. Neither of them smoke, but they do drink coffee and on those Saturday nights (and other times) they do drink (sometimes a lot, apparently). He's a few years older than I am, but he certainly works harder than I do and probably overall is healthier than me. His wife is an accomplished local golfer, having won many annual club championships. Again, I think they are good people, and I love having them as neighbors, but them not living the WoW (which they don't know about) hasn't had terrible effects on their lives. It's just the way it is. And seriouosly, how are we to know if the "angel of death" passes us by? In a situation where someone has a heart attack and survives, he might be able to say the angel of death passed him by - but it probably passed by his alcoholic chain smoking roomie, too, because they had good doctors and good technology. The favor, protection or gifts of God have to be more than the sun shining or they're not really that at all for individuals. If that's the case, then God really is more like the deist version. I'm not saying the chosen people should be above "regular" (not chosen?) people, but there should be real, tangible evidence that they (I) can point to saying "I am blessed." That said, I don't deny that some people are blessed, but I don't believe most truly are - some just want to believe they are.

OP here. Thanks again to those of you have have offered heartfelt, thoughtful and nonjudgemental responses. I really do appreciate it. My thoughts have really been brought to the whole thing about blessings (no small thanks to JudoMinja). As stated previously, this whole idea of God's blessings are indeed an integral part of where I stand and why I think the way I think. I did some searching for the definition of "blessing" (dictionaries at home - yes, we have some; and online). Common themes in the definitions are words like "God's favor" "God's protection" "finding favor of God" "gift bestowed by God" and "divinely favored." I agree with those, and given the opportunity to define the word without dictionary assistance or influence, I would probably use very similar terminology. It is further my understanding that such blessings generally come as the result of the expressed worship of God and/or expressed faith in God. In my mind, it is not apparent that those who do not worship or express faith actually get blessings. I do realize that just as the rain falls on the just and the unjust, the sun also shines on the just and the unjust, but then it's not really a blessing, is it? (I suppose it could be a blessing on the unjust who happens to be standing next to the just, but let's keep it simple and straightforward and assume we're homogeneous.) So for those who believe I am getting blessings I don't recognize (please know I am not trying to offend or mock you), the reason I may not be recognizing them if they are actually there is because they don't fit the definition. Using the example of my neighbor again, he's a great guy, successful, etc., (and probably just) but not worshipful of or faithful in God. I concede that because of any righteousness he may exhibit he may be worthy of blessings - but then again I could say that about just about anybody I know. It's sort of another dichotomy - if everybody gets this favor of God, it's not really a blessing, yet God could bless anyone. So, if there are blessings there that I'm not recognizing, what are they? How do I recognize them? Are they truly unique to me? If I can look at all of the neighbors on my street (about half have some religion/attend some church, one is openly athiest) and not tell the difference then have I truly been given a gift, found favor, or been protected by God, then is it really a blessing? Note that I certainly don't believe at this point that I am worthy of any such blessings, but at one point I did.

And as such was it taken. Maybe my reply sounded too serious? (And then I didn't want readers to get carried away with that because it could get way off topic and it's irrelevant. It did call to mind again one of my favorite movie quotes, though.) I have other things to do today, and this weekend, as well, but will check in at some point.

@JudoMinja: 1. Agreed, God didn't do that, but it is a big part of why I believe church leaders (and members in general) are not inspired and that revelation is extremely rare. 2. This all happened before the recession, the recession just hasn't helped. 3. Still mulling that one, but it comes close to a platitude. Have I been blessed? Sure, I'm very healthy, my family loves me despite my faults, until recently and besides the other event we are getting by (i.e. not starving, shelter, etc.) and so on. I'm not meaning to be demeaning here, but how many atheists (they wouldn't like use the word blessed), Muslims or Buddhists can say the same thing? How many people who do nothing to demonstrate any faith in God are blessed in these same ways? And please don't misconstrue my including of Muslims in there - devout Muslims are very faithful and most Christians could learn a thing or two about faith from them. I know those miracle stories are not the norm. When I met with my stake president he told me one of his little miracle stories (he has several) about being young and poor having graduated from a no name college, then being urged by his wife to apply to Harvard for an MBA which he did never thinking he would get in, but he was and that's the only place he applied and now he's VP of a major multinational company (you own at least one of their products guaranteed). Anyway, still mulling the rest, but I don't offhand disagree that my ideals of what God was supposed to be were wrong. That said, most of what I believed is based in church doctrine, and this incident was just a turning point - that's why I was reluctant to share it. What happened happened, that can't be changed and I don't expect God to do that. The real dichotomy is much more spiritually related than that. You need to unfocus from the incident (and there's still much more I haven't shared) - it's part of the story, it's not the main plot. So, seriously, how does God really bless the faithful? Or does he? Because that's really part of the root of this whole thing. My neighbor is a great guy. Hard working, successful small businessman. No apparent religious affiliation. I've never asked, but I know he attends no church. He's older than me and at least as healthy, has a nice home, great family, etc. Is he blessed or is that just the way it is? Maybe these things aren't what you're talking about as blessings, and that's fine, but what are blessings then? If I'm not recognizing blessings it's because I'm not seeing them. If I'm not seeing them, how am I supposed to know they're blessings? If you (or anyone else) tell me eye opening thing that changes the way I think (and that's entirely possible), am I not going to be able to point to my neighbor and say "yeah, but he has that, too"?

No, I guess that whole Star Wars & testimony thing didn't happen where I lived. (During the original series I lived in Pennsylvania and Texas, and I wasn't a member until the third one.) I can only imagine.

"...many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view..." While this is just a movie quote, it fits and I often think about it. Anyone know who said it and in what conext?

Tell me about it! The nonmembers were the worst ones in the beginning. Talk about not knowing what they're talking about!

@Anddenex: Thanks agin for your thoughtful (and thought provoking) words. I agree that Vort was trying to understand my point of view, and was probably a bit rough on him (caught me at a bad moment). I didn't start this thread nor do I return here to argue. I'm still mulling over your tree of life analogy, especially the cyclical part. I'm a little lost in it because I don't understand the part about those who left being blissful. While a big part of the original question was finding inner peace, I don't necessarily view anyone who has left the church as blissful - although some inactives seem blissful (I'm not one of them). Honestly, I don't know anybody personally who has left the church, or been ex'ed for that matter. I may have asked them the question if I did. Somehow, I'm doubting any of them are blissful, but I don't know. (Not all Sith were Jedi. Neither Darth Maul nor Darth Sidious -AKA Emperor Palpatine - were once Jedi. The difference in the Sith and dark Jedi is that dark Jedi are open to and use the dark side of the force, while Sith, of which there are not more than two at any given time, are controlled by the dark side. Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. The chosen user name has little to do with my status in the church - I use it on other forums and Twitter. Readers should not infer this part is a gospel related discussion. While the force could be related to priesthood power, there is no equivalent, or even apparent equivalent, on the dark side.)

@Vort: No disrespect intended, but no you have missed some of the point (maybe you should go back and reread). Points 1 & 2 iare partially correct, 3 is totally off base (not even in the park) and 4 is pretty close to being accurate. Undoubtedly bad things happen to good people (and good things happen to bad people), and indeed the rain doth fall on the just and the unjust. But this just didn't "happen" - it was perpetrated, and God had a hand in it (remember, I would likely still have been at the old job had I not been inspired, AND the human perpetrators, including the active, faithful church member, knew that what they were doing was career ending). Reading your other posts in various places, I see you like to call people to repentence, and frankly, you are a bit on the self righteous side. Calling the unfaithful to repentance is useless. You have no clue the depth of my experiences nor how humbly I have sought for and pleaded with God. Just because it happens for others, perhaps even you, does not mean it will happen for me and any other random individual. Your faith is not my faith, and no two peopel's faith are the same. @Literateparakeet: Thanks again for your words of understanding. Careful with the platitudes. On edit, I should have said before: I don't doubt both of you believe what you say. I respect that, but I don't believe it.

@Kawasu: No, I have not given up. Had I totally given up, would I be here? I want to believe in the LDS version of God, but I have no reason to. I don't even have a reason to believe in the version I do believe in (close to the Deist version). What little faith I do have has not been rewarded.

Hi Judo, Thanks for chiming in again. Please know I do appreciate your thoughts and I am considering them. Just a few points to help your understanding (or maybe to just explain myself). For the first, I'll use an analogy. Let's say your taking a test (pick a subject - maybe math). While you thought you'd prepared for the test and were ready, when you start to take it you realize you weren't at all prepared. As you go question by question, you realize you don't know any of the answers, and there is no way you can pass because you don't know the answers - no matter how many questions there are or how hard you try. Likewise, it became apparent to me awhile into the test of faith (I thought I had the faith to begin, and I'll elaborate on that in a moment) that I really didn't have the faith I needed. I'm not talking a few weeks here, I'm talking months (over a year, and don't bother with the God's time is not our time- our family was on the brink of bankruptcy, losing our home, and so on). Unlike the analogy, I did know some of the answers - just not enough to pass. I was still active at this point when I realized that whatever it was God wanted me to do, I didn't know what it was. I didn't "give up" I just saw the realism of the situation - no matter what I was doing or going to do I really did not have the faith required - I freely and openly admitted that, AND, no attempts on my part to increase my faith seemed to make any difference. Secondly, I appreciate your thoughts about faith being an action. I realized when I was fired (actually I was asked to resign), that I was in a dire situation. I also thought that if this was supposed to be a growth opportunity for me, there would be an end to it, and God, who knew what was happening and what was going to happen, would show me the path I should follow. This particular job field (it's professional, I had no other training in other fields) looks very poorly on being fired, especially after a short period of time. This was a huge red flag on the resume and a black ball among industry leaders. Nonetheless, I still believed God could help me. I literally applied for HUNDREDS of jobs all over the country, and even interviewed for several (an oft repeated response was the admin liked me and thought I was a great candidate but they couldn't get it by their boards). I did plant the fileds, so to speak - I did all I could do. Summarizing this, God set this situation up (for whatever reason, challenge, growth, test, whatever) and I recognized it as such but when it came time for God to fix it, despite me doing all I could do, here I am 10 years later not in any better psoition (and quite arguably much worse due to the economy - except we have no debt now). Lastly, addressing the ward/bishop. I, too, have experienced wards that were much more open, friendly and helpful than others which were quite the opposite. This ward, I thought at the time, was one of the better ones. I did have friends there who really cared - so I thought. (I will repeat this - stop going to church and you will find out who your friends really are, and you will be surprised.) During this time of great trial, both the active and inactive parts, while expressing sympathy, the membership did little (honestly I can't think of anything) to actually help. I did turn to the bishop for help, and he offered food assistance to the family, which was very helpful. However, after nine months of food assistance (I was still active and the family has always remained active) he SENT ME A LETTER (didn't even have the guts to meet with me) in which he said food assistance was meant to be temporary and there would be no more. He had not met with me in months at that point and probably didn't know that unemployment had run out, the substitute teaching I was doing and my wife returning to work wasn't really cutting it, our savings and food storage were gone, I was reaching the point of desperation (this is when I was considering suicide - I had a plan and a date) and had hit rock bottom. But how cold he know all that, he hadn't bothered to ask how I was. I am sure he was inspired to do what he did. He was made aware of our situation and my feelings at that time, but never met with me again before he was released several years later and his counselor was called (you may recall he has met with me once). One final side note, referring to the suicide thoughts. God did not prevent that from happening, nor did any of his servants. There is a story in our ward of an inactive member who had the gun to his head (not my chosen method, but to each his own) and the phone rang - it was the bishop/home teacher (different one). he saw that as a miracle, and I wouldn't disagree - the bishop did say he was inspired to call and make an appointment at that moment. Good thing he followed his prompting. The suicide hotline, not God, saved me, and like the vast majority of others who call the hotline, I was not inspired to do so - I was actually calling them to tell them where to find my body so someone else would befoe my family. Sadly, there is no Clarence and there is no Monica.

I was going to say something similar to classylady in that maybe you should consider changing majors. Maybe your lack of motivation has to do with really (deep down) not liking the subject. As for the W, it looks better than an F.

I would agree. I expected and was prepared for more posts that offered little more than platitudes (you can figure out which those are, including two of the more recent ones). I do appreciate those who have offered their heartfelt thoughts and please know that I am reading and considering your thoughts. For what it's worth, the whole "endure to the end" argument is moot. It goes along with the "test of faith" argument - in my view I failed the test of faith. Clearly I don't have the faith needed to endure - I even doubt the existence of a savior or a loving God. I am enduring this situation, not with faith, however. And I am alive - while not currently considering suicide, I did at one time early on consider that as a viable option. And yes, I was only acive for a relatively short time after this began (do the math, it was more than a year and during that year other things happened that I haven't shared to deepen the problem), however, I was active over 20 years prior to that. I don't suppose that counts.

I have been on the other end of this. I didn't realize at the time the guy didn't understand that what he had perceived as something beyond his control, I perceived as something he did have great influence upon and failed to act. He did eventually realize that he had more power than he had thought, and that his failure to act had caused harm. It took awhile, but he did eventually come to a full view of the big picture and apologized, even though he thought he had not really done anything wrong. Bottom line: that apology went a long way. Apologies are important (and something many church leaders exhibit too much pride to give).

In my time in the bishopric I had the opportunity to sit on several "Bishop's Courts" (I think they shy away from calling them that now) and one at the stake level. Unlike our criminal and civil court system in the US, these councils are not adversarial. Those present (including you) may ask any questionbut they are meant to help gain an understanding of the wrong committed, the level of remorse/repentence (and commitment to repent), and the general demeanor of the person. I'm not speaking out of turn when I say that the discussion that takes place after the person has been dismissed centers on those things (at least in the cases I was present for). So, honesty on your part is essential. Don't be surprised if you are asked to bear your testimony. You might be able to decieve them, but I wouldn't recommend it. FWIW, I don't totally disagree with RMGuy. Humans make human mistakes, and some humans have agendas. In the stake council I sat on there was clear and obvious disagreement on the part of some of the participants with the decision of the stake presidency.