Marlin1

Which premise don't you accept? That there is no good in bad, nor bad in good. You do realize that we are speaking in terms of good and evil right? it is not refutable. Good and bad, in this case, is not a matter of subjectivity and "perceived reality" We are speaking of judgment of moral being. That is the criteria. It is an objective judgment that only God can make. If it were subjective, we would all be correct in our judgment of others, even though we disagree.

I see...the rules are different. Let's see how that argument works upstairs.

You did indeed make a rash assessment of the root cause of my addiction. You don't believe that it was my belief that I was bad that caused my pain?! Why do you think I felt unloveable? Let me spell it out for you, it is because I believed that I was bad. As a result of bad choices?! You have no clue. I really think you might change your mind if you read the book.

If this person is a son of perdition, I would agree that he is evil. If not, I refuse to group him with such darkness. Not judging someone in no way diminishes their evil actions and choices. It in no way puts us in danger of harm, we can protect ourselves through following the spirit and recognizing evil behavior.

I'm curious to hear a response.

I think you get my point Vort. Perhaps your logical technicalities blind you to more delicate matters.

Anddenex, How can you disagree that someone calling me bad was a problem? Again, you don't know the situation, I haven't shared. The root of my problem and the situations surrounding it was not a "personal assessment" it was a professional assessment with a spiritual confirmation. By working on that root problem through the atonement I have found peace. It was a problem or I would not have found sobriety. Please read "Healing the Shame that Binds You" by John Bradshaw, you might gain a better understanding of the harm that comes from calling someone bad. My problem is that you are assessing my addiction, not my actions on this forum. No professional would make such rash conclusions based on such limited information shared on this forum. You are right, I have made assessments about you, I make judgments of your actions, but I will never, ever, ever, claim that you are a bad person.

I recognize that it may be hard for you to understand my opinion because I don't feel comfortable sharing my experience, and so you fill in the gaps. That just goes to show how much room for error there is when it comes to judging others. To say I don't understand your point of view is fine (as you did), but for someone to try to tell me that my understanding of the root of my addiction is wrong, without me sharing anything about it is entirely ignorant.

I don't care where we are, the nature of conversation should always be sensitive of others. Discussion is fine, but we all have boundaries, even on forums. I have never said that we should not pass judgment. Judge the deed not the person. You can distinguish and protect yourself perfectly well following that rule.

Your logical assessment of what situation? I have never shared with you my situation, I'm not sure how you can disagree with something I have never shared - making it rash. You don't agree with my "personal assessment"? First, What makes you think that this was a "personal assessment"? Second, Who are you to assess me? You don't even know me, and yet you seem to think that you know me better than any professional or bishop that does know my situation. I'm sorry, but my healing was not based in the false understanding of my problem? I'm not sure, are you accusing me of being in denial? One does not find healing in denial.

Suffice it to say, I have been to the root of my problem, I know what it looks like. I have discussed it and worked through it with professionals, bishops, fellow recovering addicts. It is real, and I have been entirely accurate in my description.

You guys aren't exactly creating a trusting environment for me to want to share. No one wants to be critically analyzed or refuted when it comes to such sensitive matters.

That is the root of my problem huh? I am amazed at how rashly people make assessment of me and my problems here. It just reinforces my doubt in the ability of man to judge a man's heart. You have no idea what caused my pain. Why and how could you disagree?

That's how I believe God wants me to judge.

I can't say that I really self-hated, rather, I believed that I was somehow unacceptable to others. I guess, in a way, I was angry at myself for that. I was a "bad boy." It sounds like your friend recognizes the damage of such destructive beliefs. Why would we ever create even the potential for such damaging beliefs to enter the heart of man through our judgment? Ok, now, I'm really done...probably not.

There is no good in bad, nor bad in good. If this is true, then to say that a man is bad is to say that there is no good in him by definition. To say that a man did bad, on the other hand, is a far more accurate statement.

It is so hard to walk away. One last post. I realize that you don't know me. In this particular area I do have personal experience. I have been through the hell of addiction. Only recently has the Lord shown me that at the core of my addiction is the belief that I am bad and unloveable. I didn't even realize it was there, I had to dig deep iinto my heart, deep down into scary places. The Lord showed it to me as clear as day. This belief, in part, was due to the judgments of others who truly meant well. It will never benefit the person. Even you argued that to get a "good man" to sin, all you have to do is tell him he is good. Well, if you want to get a "bad man" to stay bad, convince him that he is bad. Judges in Israel are here to judge doing not being. That is God's job.

Thanks for your concern BadWolf, it is truly felt. Vort, thanks for your assessment and advice on where to seek help, this site will undoubtedly help. Based on your rash assessments of my neurological state and experiential history of formal logic, I would be weary in trusting your assessment of another man's heart. "For the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart." There is light in all of us (minus the sons of perdition), I refuse to be blind to that light or diminish it in any way with such a sweeping judgment of their heart as bad. There is no good in bad, nor bad in good. To say that a man is either bad or good is so extreme and harsh it makes me cringe. Some will argue, I never said they are all bad. You're right, forgive me, they are just bad enough, perhaps just right over the line which qualifies them to be grouped together in the same classification as the sons of perdition and Satan himself. That makes it less harsh?! Trust me, convincing another person that they are bad (not that they have done bad, but that they are bad), will only reinforce their false beliefs of self and perpetuate evil. You don't want to be a part of that do you? They need to believe that there is light within and embrace their identity of child of God rather than their identity of good or bad. Your judgments hurt, they do no good for you or them. I would love to respond to all of your comments. I truly do enjoy discussing these issues, but this is getting out of hand and I recognize my part in that. I have not adequately defended my stance, nor have I been convinced of your stances. So, I bow out unchanged in belief. I know that some of you worry that I may not be able to protect myself without judging others as good or bad, please don't worry, I do get by ok.

Secondly, you are right we don't know and can't know the demarcation. So to label someone as good or bad is absurd.

Fair enough, can you answer the second part now because it justifies my response that you called non-blah blah blah. Again, how can a man be good while committing evil or evil while committing good?

All sin is evil Vort, where exactly is the line between a good man and a bad man? How can a man be good while committing evil or evil while committing good?

That is precisely what John Bradshaw calls toxic shame in his book "Healing the Shame that Binds you." It is the belief not that you made a mistake, but that you are a mistake. Not that you did bad or had bad done to you, but that you are bad. It is one of Satan's greatest tools.

By your reasoning we can conclude than that we all are evil, as we all must be cleansed from sin in order to obtain glory. So, if you wan't to be technical, you would be incorrect to call anyone good except that they are sinless. Sounds pretty gloomy to me. Again, Christ's atonement freed us from the judgment of our beings until the end.

Anddenex, that's a good question. You said - "I would agree that God changes our being. If we are not bad or good, how then can God change a person from bad to good, and from good to better?" We are not in a state of bad or good, we are in a state of probation. Probation is a test of character. To place titles of "good" or "bad" is premature. The savior through His atonement, made this probationary state possible. Without it, justice would lay claim on us, and truly, we could rightfully call ourselves "bad" in that case. Christ's atonement changed our state from "bad" to "lost" from "conviction" to "probation," and from "damned" to "preparatory." To judge ourselves or others is to neglect the purpose of the atonement. Labeling someone as good or bad is a judgment of being and is not an intermediate judgment. Judging their behavior is an intermediate judgment.

For those of you who don't speak Latin, "non sequitur" (I had to go look it up) is a snobby way for saying that I'm illogical). There is no glory in evil (pretty logical). The glory of the Telestial is compared to this world, The Holy Ghost will govern - vast difference from outer darkness. Uh...yes he can. Calling and election made sure = baptism of fire. You can't deny the Holy Ghost except that your calling and election has been made sure. You don't have to label people to learn from them. If to label others as good or bad is useless, why not be useful and stop it!