Marlin1

Sorry, I must have overlooked your response. The lack of agency in general is an impossibility, so we are talking about moral agency. A modern example would be the criminally insane. They can transgress a law without being guilty of a crime. Even God views them as innocent of sin (that is, if they truly are disabled). Nobody can deny that they transgressed, yet they are innocent. Adam and Eve were similar in that regard. They were very much disabled. They had no ability to choose between good and evil. Their agency was based purely on intellectual reasoning.

I like your thoughts JudoMinja! I learned a great lesson about time from a Catholic Benedictine monk named John Main who practices and teaches contemplative prayer (Christian meditation). He said something to the effects of - The only time that God exists is right now. If we spend our days regretting mistakes of our past or worrying about our futures, instead of living with awareness in the present, than we are missing God. God is only present in the present and we can only get to know God, and be with God, when we are present in the present with him. It's a christian perspective of the Buddhist practice of mindfulness that has enhanced my experience with God.

Seminarysnoozer, I think we are saying pretty much the same things in different ways, but there are some minor details. You countered Traveler's statement: "death is a punishment. Not a blessing," and your rebuttal to that statement led me to believe that you view death as a blessing. Something to "rejoice" over as you put it. Why was Enoch punished for sin? Because he sinned. The atonement made things better. Why do kids die? Because Adam transgressed. The atonement made things better. There is no way around it, death is penalty for sin and transgression. Christ paid the penalty for us. Death is not a punishment to children because Christ took on the penalty himself. Somebody had to pay the price. Justice had to be served. To say that death is not a punishment is to belittle Christ's atonement. You are right that physical death is not a punishment that we have to bear. Death was made mute in Christ.

He did return to give further instruction, you are right, but where were Adam and Eve when he returned? They were in hiding. What would have been his instruction had they not partaken? Again, that will forever be speculation. We can be assured that he would have prepared a way.

Wether spiritual or physical, death is death. It is eternal captivity (punishment). It was the first judgment (punishment) upon man. It is an "awful monster" as Nephi put it. Death is not the blessing, the resurrection and atonement is! Death is not the way, Christ is! 2 Nephi 9:7-12 explains the nature of death well. We did not rejoice in the spirit world that we would die, we rejoiced that we would live through Christ. Traveler is not arguing (at least I don't think he is) that this life is punishment for everyone, he is arguing that death is. If you are going to speak of death, Christ can have no part in it. Death is the enemy, Christ abolished death - 2 Tim 1:10. Death is the antithesis of Christ who proclaimed, " I am the way, the truth and the life." All blessings are found in Christ and Christ is not in death. Death = punishment; Resurrection = blessing. "...if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more." (2 Nephi 9:8) Death is everlasting punishment and hell. Without Christ, death is eternal, it is not a good thing! One of your arguments is that death is necessary to return to God. It is the "way" as you put it. Not true, there have been many that have not experienced death. Examples: The whole city of Enoch, John, the 3 Nephites. If death is a blessing, why would God withhold such a blessing from the most righteous? Death is not necessary to return to God...life is.

Seminarysnoozer, Would you also argue that spiritual death is a blessing?

Angel333, I wish that my words had power to offer some consolation or healing. I truly feel for you! You don't have to answer this question, but ask yourself - How well do you know God? How well do you really know God? How deeply? How personally? I am not implying that because you are suffering with terrible trials that you must not know God very well, or that you must not be living the commandments. It's just that he is your only hope, and hope sounds like something you could use a lot of right now. I sense a lot of fear, doubt, darkness, despair, and probably a lot of anger towards God (which is normal). God is hope, faith, light, and love. He is the antithesis of all that you are feeling. Believe that and go find it, go find Him. Prayer is your best friend. True, deep, meditative prayer. Go into your wilderness and get to know Him. 15 minutes of meditative prayer (more listening and feeling than talking) saved my life. Write all of your impressions in a prayer journal, it will become more sacred to you than the scriptures. Not only will you get to know God, you will get to know yourself on a level that you never have before. There must be the hunger, thirst, willingness, and sacrifice of your time. You need God. You can give him 15 minutes daily. It is hard at first, but 15 minutes will soon not feel like enough. Try to feel him and offer your feelings to him more than your words. Through this process, you will be guided and begin piecing back together pieces of you.

Good definition of sin, but we are discussing transgression. There is a difference. While all sin is transgression (as you point out in 1 John 3:4), I am arguing that not all transgression is sin. This type of reasoning doesn't hold up to scrutiny - "All apples are fruit, therefore, all fruit must be apples." By definition transgression is "an act that goes against a law, rule, or code of conduct" (dictionary.com). No understanding or agency necessary. So, by definition kids transgress all the time without sinning. Psalms 25:7 -> “Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness’ sake, O Lord.” There is a clear distinction here.

Man I like meat!

I'm having a hard time understanding why you think little children cannot transgress God's laws, they do it all the time.

Ya, I see what you are saying. I have always had a hard time distinguishing between sin and transgression myself. It just occurred to me, however, that there is a distinction between sin and transgression in scripture. It is found in Moroni 8. It clearly distinguishes transgression from sin based on the level of understanding and accountability. For example: Is 1 John 3:4 true in regards to children? No, it's not applicable to children. Children can know the law and transgress it all they want and still not sin. If there is some leeway with children and those without the law. I wonder if there would be any leeway with Adam and Eve considering their amoral understanding? In many ways they were like children, yet even children have the capacity to know and distinguish between good and evil. That's why church leaders distinguish the two, and I have to say, I agree with them. Adam and Eve are very unique.

Amen to every JudoMinja just said. RMGuy, you are right. It's like trying to convince a child that broccoli is actually a good thing. It may not go over so well, but it is none the less true. When we can't see or understand God's perspective, we have to trust.

The following truth is revealed in The Bible, D&C and Book of Mormon: The Lord does not give commandments without preparing a way to accomplish the things which he has commanded. The "how" of obedience is not always clear. With regard to the brass plates, what was impossible to Laman and Lemuel, became entirely possible to Nephi because he chose to obey and walk in faith, and the way was prepared for him to obey. The Lord promised Adam and Eve after giving both commandments that he would return and give further instruction. Unfortunately, Adam and Eve partook of the fruit before they ever received that further instruction. So, the answer of "how?" will forever be a matter of speculation because Adam and Eve chose to partake of the forbidden fruit. The following scripture is telling: “He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things(knowledge of good & evil)…Behold here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.” (D&C 93: 29,31-32)

I agree with you Vort, I never never insinuated that they were innocent. They were clearly guilty of disobeying God. Technically, however, they did not sin. They transgressed, apparently there is a difference.

I wonder if those missionaries or those innocent children view their death as a bad thing? Paradise vs. mortality. Hmmmm....though choice! It's funny the things we as humans consider to be bad things with our limited perspective! Most "bad" things that happen to us are only bad if we react poorly to them. Is pain a bad thing? Personally, I think it's a pretty good teacher.

Temptation, to me, requires moral agency, which Eve did not have at the time. She did not yet know good or evil and therefore could not credibly choose between the two with any capacity for understanding which choice was good and which choice was bad. It was not therefore a moral or spiritual deception. It was to Eve an intellectual, and to her, reasonable decision based on the facts presented to her from both sides. The serpent’s words were more subtle and intellectually enticing and stimulating to Eve. I think beguiled is a perfect word. Eve never listed "having children" as a reason for partaking of the fruit. She said it looks good, it's good for food, and makes one wise. Only after she partook did she realize that she couldn't have kids if she was kicked out of the garden and Adam remained. So, Adam ate to fulfill the first commandment. There was no knowledge beforehand that eating the fruit was the only way to have kids. That realization came after the fact. Eve did not eat the fruit to fulfill the first commandment, Adam did.

The fall clearly was a punishment. Seminarysnoozer, I think you are getting hung up on viewing punishment as a bad thing. It can be a blessing or curse depending on how you react to it. I don't believe God punishes us to hurt us, rather to help us learn from our mistakes. Had Adam and Eve not humbled themselves and repented, it would not have led to salvation. In that case, the fall clearly would not have been considered a blessing to Adam and Eve. It would have been a missed opportunity with real eternal consequences. Punishment and suffering are teachers. They teaches us what to avoid in life - like a hot stove. Punishment and suffering always hurt. So which is it, a blessing or a curse? Again, it depends on how you choose to react to it.