tovarisch

I wanted to push up this intro thread to share that my wife and I are being baptized on Saturday. I haven't posted much, but I've read a tremendous amount here. So this note is also to say thanks to the regular posters.

I love my NRSV. It's so easy to read that I can focus on the stories (both in terms of following the narrative and grasping lessons) without getting bogged down in KJV idiosyncrasies.

Thank you all for your responses, especially Vort. That sense of community that you describe is one of the main reasons that we are drawn to the church. We know that member so of the church care for one another as family. I am sure there are exceptions to this, but I have seen this with my own eyes. We look forward to this part of the church very much. Church, I am on my ipad so it's hard to quote you, but I have a couple follow-up comments. In my head, I separate spiritual blessings from material blessings. If I pray regularly, read scriptures, attend sacrament meeting, and eventually get baptized and sealed, I know I will have spiritual blessings, up to and including the blessings of the Holy Spirit in my life and marriage. This won't make sense, but that does not seem transactional to me. This seems like theosis, becoming more like God (or the Savior). What I meant by transaction was a literal, material sense of "If I do X, then God will give me Y." I am far more comfortable tithing knowing that it results in spiritual benefits (growing closer to God) than the thought that I'll receive a bonus or pay rise. One related area I struggle with is priesthood blessings for healing. Obviously the original apostles called on the name of God to heal and do marvelous acts. How do you reconcile prayers for our sake with healing in the name of Jesus Christ?

I looked for another thread on this topic, but I couldn't find one. If I missed it, apologies. A couple weeks ago in sacrament meeting, a member spoke about how paying a tithe on contingent income resulted in the income materializing; the couples' faith resulted in a blessing from God. After church, my fiancée* told me that she didn't like the testimony at all because she felt it was transaction. That is, if we act a certain way, God will reward us in a specific way: investment leads to profit. She prefers the view that God loves everyone equally. On the one hand, I see what she means. The idea that a specific action we take makes God respond in a certain way makes God seem like an ethereal bookkeeper and not God. On the other hand, scriptures seem pretty clear that following ordinances and rules means that God may answer our prayers in a literal, meaningful, sense that He may change circumstances (1 Nephi 17:35 "he that is righteous is favored by The Lord" or D&C 29:6 "Whatsoever ye shall ask in faith, being united in prayer according to my command, ye shall receive.") So my question for you all is pretty simple: How do I reconcile these two things? Are we simply wrong on the first, or is there more to prayer and asking God's favor that I just don't realize? I'd like to assure my fiancée that prayer isn't simply transactional, but I fear that that may actually be the proper view. Related to this is volume of prayer. I very much dislike that idea that a famous person receiving thousands of prayers will be healed because of that volume whereas a poor, unknown person will not be healed because she only received five prayers. I myself am stumped. I don't want to believe that volume of prayers would result in a change that a smaller number would, but it seems likely that being obedient and faithful means that God may bless us with material blessings. Having said that, in my own prayers the only time I feel warm and that my prayers are good is when I am saying thanks for everything in my life. I tend not to ask for much other than for a testimony whether the Book of Mormon and Church are true. ----- *You may recall that we have not yet been baptized. We have a ward calling but are still pondering.

Sorry for my late response to these posts. I came across Elder Holland's talk from 2009 or 2010 (and made into a Mormon Message in 2010). If you haven't seen it, I highly suggest it: Finrock, I really appreciate you highlighting Elder Cook's words about treating the Book of Mormon with faith. Since I've been investigating the church, my view on the Book of Mormon has gone from skeptical to faithfully accepting. There are things I do not understand or occasionally make me question, but those are few compared to the warmth I feel when I read. For example, I am working my way through Mosiah again, and my testimony grows with every paragraph. My prayers have changed from only asking for discernment about the Book of Mormon to both thanking Heavenly Father for the Book of Mormon and asking for discernment. We all just passed the chapter in the President Snow manual about Joseph Smith. I absolutely loved the fact that while President Snow knew the Prophet Joseph as well as any church leader, President Snow didn't base his belief in Joseph's teachings because Joseph was kind, strong, or spiritual. President Snow based his beliefs on a testimony confirmed by the power of the Holy Spirit: All of that said, I reserve the right to have periods of doubt in the future. :-) Though through prayer I hope to get through them with a stronger testimony.

Bytor, this may sound strange, but for some reason I find it easier to accept the strange things in the Bible over the strange thing in the Book of Mormon. I think this is because I want everything to sync perfectly, but that isn't the case.

Bytebear, I'm glad you pointed that out. It's much easier to accept that they read the verse and were moved to "become" the verse, so to speak, than the other way around. I should have opened my institute manual.

My fiancee and I have been reading the Book of Mormon on the evenings we spend together during the week. (Quick note: We aren't yet baptized though have been going to church for a few months now. We're slated to be baptized in March.) Given that we met and dated when neither of us went to church, reading scripture together has been a great way for us to build religion into our relationship. A few nights ago we read Ether 4 and absolutely loved it, especially verse 12: The next evening, we read Ether 5 about the three witnesses, and we had the exact opposite reaction; it raised doubts in our minds that LDS is true. Ether 5 feels too perfect to be prophecy. Despite getting over elephants and steel and mostly over BoM historicity questions, there are still moments reading BoM, D&C, or Pearl of Great Price (*cough* Book of Abraham papyri *cough*) when I think, "Man, as great as this all is, it seems like Joseph made it up." I prayed about this the very next day in my personal prayers. I do feel at peace spiritually, but there's an intellectual part of my mind that I have to fight with. In the thread a few months ago, the member "Changed" posted on heuristics. I have re-read that post many times to remind myself that I don't have to understand everything and have to accept the contradictions. I also remind myself that Paul included "faith" as a spiritual gift, and maybe that's a gift that I don't have an abundance of -- and that's okay because I am sure Heavenly Father has given me other strengths. Now that I've written the above, I realize that I don't have a question. Just an honest confession to the denizens of LDS.net Forums that I have doubts and depend on prayer and reading scripture to give me peace that becoming a Mormon is the right decision. I'm like a Nephite except mine is a doubt cycle!

I am my no means an expert here, but given that reading could be the root cause of this, it might make sense to speak with the ward mission leader or another member about the issue. I know that there were a couple things that I haven't felt comfortable discussing with missionaries so I spoke about them with someone my own age; in my case, it was the EQ first counselor, but that's partially because he and I are friends outside of church.

Thanks again for all your responses. My takeaway from this discussion is that I am going to stop reading apologetics about the historicity of the Book of Mormon. I read the Book of Mormon and loved most of it and disliked none. If I am going to accept the LDS church, it will be because because of desire (Alma 32) and the Holy Spirit's guidance. No amount of apologetic writing is going to convince me that the Book of Mormon is absolutely factual. I like what Finrock wrote, "There was an intellectual and factual knowledge but no substance, no true wisdom." It's pretty obvious that I want to believe in the truth that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints presents: That's why I'm on this forum and have read so much in recent weeks. I'm going to switch tactics. Instead of reading about the Book of Mormon's historicity, I am going to get LDS study materials and study the Book of Mormon and live what I learn. Hugh Nibley can wait. The above said, it's great to know that believing LDS acknowledge these issues.

Thanks everyone for your responses, especially Changed for your explanation of heuristics (which is one of those things I've read a dozen times but never looked up) and Just_A_Guy for pointing out that a New York farmboy did as best he could given his background and education. I also like substituting obsidian for steel: What else would Joseph have though a short, black dagger was made of? Steel, most likely. I read last night in one forum or book that Nibley wrote that archeology may never prove the Book of Mormon; archeology can only disprove history. Archeology hasn't done that, and if we take the tactic I'm reading here, and the one I'm inclined to take, we admit that Joseph wasn't perfect--no infallibility among Latter-day Saints--and wrote the most correct book, but that doesn't mean that its the most factual book. For many years I was an atheist and read every new-atheist writer you know: Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett. Despite being a card-carrying atheist, I was drawn to belief (and I'll go so far to say that I was drawn specifically to LDS for many years). It's hard for me to set aside the "logical" formulas against belief, which to my mind are easy because they are simple and binary. I am having to reshape the belief structure I lost in my 20s to say, "I feel this, I pray this, and I don't know all of this." It's a significant change, but it's very nice to see I'm not alone!

Thanks. Mostly I want to know that I'm not alone in wanting to believe (or, dare I say, believing) but having problem with certain issues.

Point taken.

I preface these questions by saying that I am an investigator (a title I don't love, but it is what it is), and that I've found the vast majority of what I've read in the Book of Mormon, especially Mosiah 18: Baptism is not only entering a covenant, it's entering a community where we help one anotherAlma 32: A beautiful explanation that faith can begin with desire and then grow into true faith4 Nephi: I found this book absolutely heartbreakingAs you well know, the Book of Mormon has many anachronisms in it: steel, coins, elephants, horses, etc. that are not easily explained away. To my mind, the best that I can do is say that Joseph Smith wasn't translating the plates as we would translate a letter or book. He was translating the plates through divine guidance, and God gave words and descriptions that Joseph would understand. Thus the history may be real, but some of the elements are what worked for Joseph to understand and write. You can well imagine what the cynical view is. Here's where it gets complicated. I absolutely love the focus on family and eternity. I love the emphasis on clean living and monthly fasting. When I pray, I believe that I receive positive answers, but I can't kick the fact that there are major anachronisms in the Book of Mormon, and the apologetics for these are generally pretty weak. Here's my question for faithful LDS readers: Do you believe every word that's written, including horses, steel, chariots, elephants, coins? (I haven't gotten through D&C or the Pearl of Great Price, but I've already read a lot of criticism about the Book of Abraham.) Stated otherwise, is it possible for you to have a testimony that the Church is true and the Book of Mormon real while having specific doubts about some elements?

I'm so sorry to read about your son. I don't have any feedback for you other than that's tragic. I actually finished reading the Book of Mormon last night, and there is a chapter on infant baptism or, rather, the lack of need of infant baptism, in the Book of Moroni ch. 8. Enjoy church this morning. The first Sunday of each month is always the most interesting (in my view).

I highly recommend reading the Book of Mormon. It's why I've only a bit more of Ether and Moroni, which I should finish in the next couple days. I recommend books and the app because there's a great deal to the Church than just its scriptures: history, culture, etc. To my mind, it's made the Book of Mormon more understandable. Plus I love to read so there's that. :)

I'm 32, but I first met with Mormon missionaries when I was 19. I spent most of my 20s being anti-religion, but there was always a little, tiny point inside me that said, "You know you want to believe." During that period, I was always kind of interested. For example, I wanted and greatly enjoyed the PBS Frontline special on the Church. Anyhow, once my fiancee and I became serious and started discussing family, we both said that we wanted to raise our children in a community and with family. Obviously they will be our kids, but being involved in a community is important to both of us. We discussed going to church (I would refer to myself as "a nonbeliever who wants to be believe"), but I wasn't interested in Southern Baptist or Eastern Orthodox (the two faiths I know) or her faith (Episcopalian). I mentioned one day that we should consider LDS because it is so heavy on community, and she agreed. I emailed missionaries through the online form, and a couple weeks later two appeared. Have been going to church since. We're pretty sure we want to join, but we are worried about our families and changing our lives to live by the Word of Wisdom. The proper answer to that is, "God will provide." I also worry that maybe we're reaching for the first great church to come our way, but that's why we're going to take five full weeks for the remaining five lessons and then make ourselves wait a little longer after that to be baptized. No harm is making the process last five months. What prompted your visit to the church? If you have an Android, iPhone, or iPad, there's a great app called "Gospel Library" by LDS that has everything: scriptures, training manuals, study guides (I like the "Book of Mormon: Student Manual"), etc. I highly recommend you download if you can. Also, there may be a Ward Library where you can find some great books.

I went to the local library and found several good books. -Understanding the Book of Mormon by Grant Hardy -Book of Mormon: A Very Short Introduction by Terryl Givens -Latter days: a guided tour through six billion years of Mormonism by Coke Newell All three are written by orthodox, believing Latter-day Saints. Only the last speaks about doctrine and history in depth (in a very readable fashion), but the first two help further explain the Book of Mormon. I just began Givens's By the Hand of Mormon, but I am only 70 pages into it. So far it's explained the situation around Joseph Smith's translation, but looking at later chapters it will get into other topics. Grant Hardy updated the formatting of the Book of Mormon into paragraphs, stanzas, etc. depending on prose, poetry, etc. in his book The Book of Mormon: A Reader's Edition. After I finish the BoM (I'm in Ether right now), I'm going to reread the book in Grant's layout. Enjoy reading!

Welcome. My fiancee and I are in the same boat. We can learn together!

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@McClain: That LDS frequently remind themselves and those outside the church that prophets and leaders have fallings is very refreshing. Of course, no Roman Catholic would say anything other than the same about a pope or cardinals, but I haven't seen RCs embrace (or freely accept) their leaders' sins as LDS do. I mean that in the most positive sense possible. Today after stake conference a new friend said the very same thing about Home Teaching. @MissHalfway: Thanks for your comment. I like your statement that you continually talk to God about what bothers you. I have to say my own prayers begin "Heavenly Father, have mercy on me. I am thankful for XYZ, but I don't understand ABC. I don't know whether this is what You want." Etc. I am sure that the war chapters will become interesting to me soon enough, but for now I appreciate the spiritual growth verses more. For example, I just underlined Helaman 3:27-29 -- that's where I am right now in my journey so they mean more to me. Honestly, my biggest fear has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon and its historicity, even though I do have issues with that. It has to do with being able to "endure to the end." I was raised Southern Baptist, visited various Christian churches in college, and spent most of my adult years as a quiet unbeliever or a unabashed atheist, albeit one who was always pulled toward belief in God. (I could never shake it no matter how many atheist books I read!) On the one hand, I've only been going for a month and despite this I want to be baptized. On the other hand, I don't want to convert and fall away later. So for now I am (we are) planning on attending, learning, and waiting for a wedding date to be set before donning white baptismal clothes (though I'm talking to missionaries about baptism -- in general terms -- this week). If you were my neighbor you'd hear a lot of rambling like the above... :)

My fiancée and I are investigators in the church. We've only been attending for about a month, but, man o man, I like it a lot. We started attending church after we decided to get married. We were discussing our idea of what kind of family we wanted to raise, and we had the common desire to be together as a couple and eventually as a family in a community. Neither of us remember who said it (I think it was me, she thinks it was her), but I got on the LDS website and asked to meet with missionaries. A couple weeks later, two missionaries visited, gave us BoM, and invited us to visit church. We attended that very Sunday, had dinner with THREE couples our age that week, and have been reading a lot since. (Interestingly, I've long been interested in the church. I met with missionaries briefly in college, have had many LDS acquaintances through the years, and even picked up a BoM a few years ago but only discovered a couple weeks ago when looking through boxes.) I actually decided to join this forum because I've read so many messages and figured I should jump in. To make this thread less boring, I'll let you know what I have found I like, dislike/am unsure of. Likes People attending church live what they believeEveryone is exceptionally friendlyWe love the low hum of babies during the sacramentI love the BoM sections, e.g., Alma 32, that are about faith. (I find the battle chapters less edifying.Sometimes when I finish reading sections of the BoM before bed, my entire body feels like I've just had five cups of coffee. I'm buzzing in bed thinking about it. Except for the battle chapters that help me sleep! I find the view on the Trinity to make more sense, even if it isn't orthodox "trinitarian"I like the teaching on preexistenceI like the sheer amount of church stuff there is to do, but I also recognize it must be challenging year in and year outChallenges I have a hard time with the historicity of the BoM, but I feel that a lot of my problems can be explained away by assuming a "limited geographical model" and the authors, particularly Nephi and Mormon, writing their civilizations in the post positive light possible. For example, maybe the towers Mormon described in Alma maybe were just hills and not strong fortifications? My politics (I'm a liberal Dem) with church teaching, but if Harry Reid can do it... Temple work seems quite odd, but that's me saying that as a complete outsider.There are things that others find challenging, e.g., horses, chariots, Joseph Smith's polygamy, etc., that don't phase me. So that's me in a nutshell. I'm reading a ton, enjoying services equally so, and am praying for the first time in years. I plan to keep going and hope that I want to keep going. I look forward to picking your brains!