yaanufs

Of course he does. This is the internet where rudeness is a given on discussion forums because there is no comeback.

Is it only me that has noticed that one one side of the debate we have women telling men how wrong, how childish and self centered they are. And on the other side we have the men telling the women how wrong they are and how it is the women's fault for being so needy / sexually repressed / emotionally unstable. Top stuff. Perhaps their is truth in Cal's words, perhaps there is truth in the females words, but as long as one side continues to dismiss the views of the other then what hope is there?

It doesn't make you an expert on how the two should interact in a marriage anyway. Particularly when your opinion is in direct contradiction with many of the relationship experts of this world.

Yes, yes, yes. The facts are that women are complex and variable. Men are simple and consistent. I've read a whole bunch of books on relationships and it is crystal clear from the authors which of the sexes is simple in their needs and which is complex and inherently variable in their needs. Males do have an ego that needs stroked by their partner, that much is true. But I think you'll find it is a simple thing to do and does not carry the same complexity and difficulty that males have in trying to deal with women. Find me a good quote from an author or academic that backs up your position that males have very complex needs and women have very simple needs. Just debating our opinions with nothing to back you (or me) up is going to be pointless.

You must be having a laugh here. It is definitely the other way around. Men are simple creatures, and easy to please. Women change constantly, what they liked yesterday they don't like today, etc. Women communicate in riddles, etc I suggest you read some books by some established authors that touch on the subject of the differences between men and women. The "10 stupid things women (or men) do to mess up their lives" makes for interesting reading. They clearly elaborate on the complexities of women and the simplicity of men.

My wife was told she was in the high risk category for Downs with our child. They explained that the test carried a 1% chance of accidentally aborting the child. On further questioning it turns out that they carried out 250 tests the previous year on high risk mothers and only 2 tests came back positive. So the test itself had a higher percentage of causing a problem than the problem it was trying to detect. It turned out our child was fine, he just has a big head which is what concerned them on the ultrasound.

I'm genetically predisposed to be violent towards gay people. Does that excuse my behavior? Or should I try to control it?

I think I'd rather my kids used their left hand for taking the sacrament. They use their right hand for, what seems like constantly, picking their noses. Yes, they do taste the fruit of their efforts. No, they don't seem to take any notice when we tell them not to do it. Left hand is better for all in the congregation I think.

My tip would be to get a divorce before any kids come along in the marriage. It should make it much easier that way

Sure, sometimes.....

Quite the opposite. It is clear from scripture that God has given way above average spiritual experiences to many people who were not in the least bit spiritual. Hence my initial question. If it doesn't lead to God it was emotional, not spiritual, isn't that where this thread seemed to be going? If the person after childbirth still firmly believes in no God, was it a spiritual experience, or was it emotional to them? People in the scriptures who have seen angels and afterwards are still against God. Are you claiming their experience was only emotional, not spiritual because of the end result? I can see where you are coming from with that position, and it is logical, but assuming the person involved was an active member of the church how can they get higher spiritual experiences and what makes it more likely to happen? Or are you claiming there is a limit to the level of a spiritual experience and once you have experienced the same as as someone who is newly starting out, then that is the best it's going to be. The spiritual experiences stay at a similar level and because you are now more spiritual then you don't notice them as much. That seems a bit backward to me, surely those who are earnestly seeking God and a really putting in a heartfelt effort should be rewarded with great spiritual signs that are more significant than someone who is just starting out on a path of belief? Not just, more and more experiences that are harder and harder to discern from the feelings of indigestion.

Since you want to sidetrack the issue and go down this route why dont I show the next logical step in your thinking.Being a non-believer in God or religion.... and based upon things I have read on other websites regarding religious history etc. What makes you believe that Peter, James and John and the other early church apostles and OT prophets had great spiritual highs ...visitations, visions etc. ? How do you know it wasn't all made up?

You could take that position if you wanted to. It is sn't really important to my original question. Who is more likely to receive (or notice) such spiritual manifestations from God. You cannot reclassify someone elses experiences for them. If they have no belief in God or spiritual matters then they have had an emotional experience that has changed their life. It has already been said above that a spiritual experience is one that turns you to God and there was lots of agreement with that. This example I have given does not turn a person to God, it just makes them a more responsible person, husband and father. You can't have it all ways. Choose your position and stick with it.

Actually, the question is who is more likely to experience a spiritual high? It always has been in this thread.

On the issue of your definition of spiritual high means lasting change for good and emotional high is a temporary thing.Many early church brethern were involved in terrific spiritual highs, bigger then any of us have ever experienced I'd suggest. Life changing events. Yet they fell away, it must have been because the effect wore off, or could it be that your definition is a bit too simplistic? Next example I would use is that of a Heathen Unbeliever who moves into fatherhood. The whole birth experience for him is emotional and sometimes it can make a lasting change for good in his, and his families life. So an emotional experience can give a lasting change for good. Things are not so black and white when it comes to spirituality. Hence this thread.

Okay, in Summary. We've had opinions that state that spiritual experiences are constantly coming from God, it's up to people to notice them. Seeking for these spiritual experiences is considered bad form. But noticing them is good form. These spiritual experiences people refer to seem to be the fairly low level, common or garden type experiences. Not exceptional experiences or significantly amazing like many mentioned in the scriptures and that occured at the time of Joseph Smith. No one wishes to divulge any of their spiritual experiences, they are all too personal. It's lucky Joseph Smith didn't feel like that No one has an opinion on what type of person is more likely to notice these spiritual experiences. The strictly obedient but serves out of fear and guilt person. Or the more 'flexible' to the rules but serves others more often and with love type person. either that is because you all view them as exactly the same level when it comes to spiritual things. Anything I've missed out ?

Or maybe it is too intellectual for this forum It just seems too haphazard to me. Stuff happens to everyone and it's your fault if you miss it. If we were talking about the visitation of angels and seeing the face of Christ as happening to everyone then I can understand the negative view of people missing the experience. But we seem to be talking now about little experiences that can easily be dismissed. I was trying to talk about bigger experiences that cannot be dismissed.

I guess I do feel that people obedient to the do not commandments and obedient to the do commandments because of love, not guilt, are more likely to receive bigger spiritual experiences. My question was really posted because not all people are as fully righteous as that and I was trying to see if any folks here had a particular view on different types of people and which they thought was more likely to have a big spiritual experience. Your opinion here is a mile away from the truth. TBH I'm not interested in people here telling me how to live my life. I have zero plans to change on the hope that I might get a significant spiritual experience. I just thought it was an interesting question that might get a few interesting viewpoints. I was hoping the thread would develop additionaly beyond who might get an experience to what sort of experiences people would consider spiritual highs. There has already been an attempt by someone to go that route but I see little interest. Not to worry. Not all threads are interesting to anyone but its creator

I don't think it was meant to be taken too literaly. I think he meant women in general are evil.HTH

I don't follow. I've already modified my thoughts to take account of what SF has added to the discussion. SFs comments have been interesting as they turn the idea around pretty much 180 degrees. You also assume I had a complete thought pattern in place before I posted, when in actuality I didn't. I posted to see if a discussion would bring more ideas to the table and that it would help fill in some more of a random set of thoughts I had yesterday. So far SF has added a very valid point and I welcome it. I can see your position and the only issue I have with it is that the spiritual experience can't have been very powerful if someone can fail to see it. For example who would have failed to notice the experience of Joseph Smith in the grove? So my question remains unanswered. Who is more likely to receive or notice a significant spiritual message from God? I guess this is a logical extension to the first question. If God has decided who he will give the great spiritual experiences to is there nothing we can do to obtain them? Is there any point in trying to obtain such a manifestation from God, or should we be content with the line-upon-line evolution of our spirituality?

I hope so. There is no discussion if we all agreed on everything. That would go along with the scriptural examples of big spiritual experiences. Which is why I got to thinking is there a type of person more likely to receive such a thing. It seems to me that what you are saying is that everybody gets big spiritual experiences but not everybody notices. Only those that make the effort to notice will gain from them. Continuing my theme then, but altering it somewhat to address your position, is there a type of person who is more likely to notice a big spiritual experience? The rigidly obedient type or the person who bends a few rules but gives more service? I would have to add that I question if it was such a big spiritual experience if a person can miss it.

I classify LDS as Christians if that helps. I do not denounce your method, I think it is the standard way to progress and as such there is nothing at all wrong with it. As a personal plan for spiritual development it works well. I'm just trying to discuss a different way, a way that involves more spiritual highs, bigger experiences, more wow type stuff. I've already mentioned seeing angels, face of Christ as some obvious examples and there are probably a whole bunch of others too. I have nothing specific in mind regarding what is a significant spiritual experience as that was not the purpose of my thread. I'm just trying to get a feel for peoples views on what type of person is more open to such experiences and what type of person is more likely to be in a position to be offered a big spiritual experience from God. Actually I never said I was looking for great spiritual experiences just a view on who might be more likely to receive one. This whole thing is is just a thought that I had that might have made for some interesting discussion. Maybe it was just me that thought that Most people on other forums I frequent blame wierd threads on alcohol, I can't use that excuse Your 'Spidey Sense' is failing you then. I'm not frustrated at all. I realise it is an abstract thought I've thrown out and as such it is difficult for me to get across in words what I'm thinking, that makes it even more difficult for someone reading my ramblings to get a good grip on what I'm pondering.

I think you should pursue it (nicely) as it made us all confused as well

But that does not mean you cannot discuss the principle in abstract non-specific to any person terms. Of course, but there is another side of the coin. Placing a person in a category that is way above their current level may actually inspire them to aim for that level, rather than sit at their current position. Actually helping their progress rather than limiting. I can't argue with that approach. I'm just trying to have a discussion about the more unusual, where people get significant spiritual experiences and make massive leaps in their gospel understanding. I'm not trying to identify what the experiences are but to try and see if folks here have a view on the type of person I've listed in the thread. Or perhaps they have another character stereotype they can put into the melting pot for discussion and consideration. Why? Is it relevant to this thread?

Thinking of something different is always welcome.Your description may be accurate for the majority of Christians but I'm trying to get a handle on significant, way above average spiritual experiences. I feel your view is of steady progression in the right direction, I'm thinking along the lines of visits from angels, seeing the face of Christ, etc, completely life changing experiences, not really additions to existing experiences. Big step changes from previous experiences.