Pelagius

The Bible describes setting the rainbow in the clouds after the flood, not just designating as a sign after the flood. Looks like interest is starting to wane for this line. It was great while it lasted. Actually Snow, the Bible doesn't say that the the rainbow was a new development after the flood. Here's the scripture: "And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth." "And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh." "And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth." The belief that the rainbow was not pre-existent is simply a continuation of assumptions from childhood -- from the child's version of this story. Consider the same language while viewing this as a real-time conversation and interaction between God and Noah. As God speaks, Noah looks upward and sees the rainbow. God says, "I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant." Doesn't mean it's never been there before. "I do set my bow in the cloud .., the bow shall be seen in the cloud . . , And the bow shall be in the cloud..." All of these statements could equally apply to phenomena or actions that had also occurred in the past. Nevertheless, if God did limit rainbows to after the flood, that's okay with me. You stated that for such a scenario to exist, that prior to the flood either light, refraction, or rain droplets would necessarily be non-existent. Not necessarily. Walking on water, healing the sick, calming the storm, reading the heart and thoughts of another, all require metaphysical realities with which you and I are probably not familiar.

The Bible says that ALL FLESH had become corrupt - so there would be no innocents and it says that ALL FLESH was destroyed. So - my question is: Since you believe some things that contradict the bible why do you believe other parts that seem obviously fantasitcal? Seriously? A rainbow is a simple matter of light refraction as it passes through water droplets. Do you believe that prior to the flood there was no light? Or no water droplets? Or no light refraction? Rainbows occur when light passes through the mist of a waterfall? What does that signify? Picky picky. It doesn't mean there was no rainbow prior to the covenant -- but at that point, the bow in the cloud was specified as the token of the covenant. Fitting since the bow is the result of light refraction through airborn water -- and they had recently witnessed quite a bit of that! BTW, thanks for the topic. It's very interesting.

Well - I don't believe the Bible is perfect but that is not the point I am making here. The flood story could be a parable of sorts without having to worry about whether or not it is completely moral or completely true. BTW, I believe the deluge actually happened, although the account is obviously incomplete. Too much happening there to be recorded in just a few pages of one book. Not a parable, but it was a type. It was a type of the great flood of the last days where righteousness and truth would flood the earth. Enoch and Noah both knew that, as evidenced by Moses (Moses 7:50-52, 60-62 and JST Genesis 9:17-25). The rainbow was given as a token of not only God's promise to never again destroy all flesh with a flood, but also of God's promise to remember the children of Noah and to visit them in the last days with the restoration of the Gospel. Every rainbow reminds us of God's mercy in sending prophets, priesthood, and The Book of Mormom in the latter days!

Let's assume for discussion's sake that the biblical account of the flood is 100% accurate. My point was, even then there was no atrocity. One person or 20 million. Innocent or guilty. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Life. Death. Health Sickness. He is sovereign. It's wrong for us to take life -- but not for Him. It's wrong for us to cause suffering -- but not for Him. It all belongs to Him. We belong to Him. I believe we all agreed to those terms when we entered into this grand plan of salvation. Absolute trust. All our eggs in one basket -- His. Witness the facts that war rages on with his permission, as do disease, pestilence, famine, flood, earthquake, tornado, hurricane, forest fire, tsunami... We as mortals have very little to no control over those things. Do we rightly condemn God when innocents suffers by these acts of God? Your setting up an emotionally charged scenario by emphasizing the distinction between innocent children and guilty adults. But none of that matters at all in terms of God's morality. Consider that as part of His plan, the most Innocent One suffered and died -- something Jesus in no way deserved. The atonement is the absolute example of injustice, where the Innocent One suffered horrible pain both physically and spiritually, followed by both physical and spiritual death. And it was God, our Father, that planned and executed this grand injustice. It was God's bitter cup that Jesus referred to and ultimately drank. You might respond by noting that Jesus volunteered for it. But we all volunteered for our experiences here on earth. Like I said, the Lord giveth and he taketh away. It's all his. And yes, it actually is all good. "Know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good. The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?" (Doctrine & Covenants 122:7-8)

Snow. Your demograhic projections are interesting, but I think you missed a few important points behind the story. If the principle applied then as stated later in The BOM, destruction comes when the CHILDREN of the land are ripe in iniquity. Moreover, the righteous were being converted and translated --removed from the earth to the City of Enoch -- for at least 120 years during Noah's ministry. When Enoch saw these events in vision (still future for him, because Noah was his grandson or great grandson, can't remember for sure which), he asked the Lord why. The Lord explained that the generation being destroyed had forsworn themselves with oaths, secret combinations, the kind that brought total annihilation to the Jaredite and Nephite civilizations. The worst kinds of wickedness had become institutionalized until there was no turning back. The BOM of explains that the purpose of these oaths was to enable the participants to more easily commit murders, whoredoms, and all manner of evil while avoiding accountability. This kind of social institution had inundated the world and the righteous were physically separating themselves to the City of Enoch. After the entire City had been removed from the earth before the flood, so were the new converts. My point is, it was to SAVE the children that the Lord did what he did. Do you think the pre-mortal hosts, not yet born, relished the thought of coming down into that cesspool of humanity? Remember, Enoch heard the Heavens weep in contemplation of this terrible destruction. But the Lord had to do it because it was the necessary (and pre-warned) consequence to the breaking of eternal law. This kind of wickedness always brings destruction. He had to do it in order to be just (punish the wicked) while also being merciful to the younger children who had not yet entered into the sins of their own fathers. By ending the world, he was saving them and the souls of those still contemplating their earth life while watching from the heavens. Whatever the Lord does is by definition good. He makes the rules. He commanded us not to murder. But that does not in any way limit his rightful control over the lives and deaths of his children. Death is not evil -- unless a man murders. Death is but the end of life, the end of time. Dying young means less time here, but "more time" over there, which for the good is not bad. I don't see any problem with the flood at all, not in terms of mercy, justice, or morality. Don't you think there would be less children, given the depravity of the people? I know the Bible mentions they were still marrying and giving in marriage when the flood came upon them. But Enoch's account definitely adds some color to the picture by describing the depths of their wickedness. Even in todays world, which I think is not yet as depraved (even in Europe) the Europeans are breeding (or rather lack of breeding) themselves out of existence. I don't think we can really project based on US census statistics. Just a minor point I guess, since it doesn't really address the question of morality. So what if it was just 100,000 chillins rather than 3 million?

PaladinGirl02, I agree with shanstress that if there were a way to make it work on your own, perhaps you would be better off. I say that because it seems from your post that they do not respect or appreciate your relationship with the Lord's church. HOWEVER, while that's not currently the case, I think you should relax a little (not be so hard on yourself) and realize that because you do depend on them, they have a legitimate interest and concern for how you use the gifts they give you. And don't forget to be grateful. Unless they really are downright bad in some way, then they probably are trying to watch out for you as best they know how. If they want well for you, and they simple don't understand that the church is a GOOD thing, then try to be merciful to them also. Respect their wishes.

Hi PaladinGirl02 I can empathise with you. When I was younger, my stepfather didn't like me to pay tithe on the money I received from him. The situation made it difficult for my mom because of the low-level conflict it created between me and her husband. (BTW, I am 39 years old now. I am speaking from some experience as a convert of 26 years). But I can see now that I was wrong to tithe the money he gave me. I was wrong to upset my stepfather and create that situation for my mother. I was dependent on him and it was his money. I didn't earn it myself. As a gift, he had the right to determine the conditions upon which the gift was received. And it was dishonest of me to give any of that money to the church behind his back. I think this applies to your situation. Tithe is 10% of your income. However, this is gift money given for a specific purpose --not income, not earned, not your money. If your grandfather just filled your gas tank for you, would you siphon out 10% of the gas and give that to the church. Please don't misunderstand my perspective. I am a full tithe payer. And I believe in obedience to all the Lord's commandments. In my opinion, you should not feel obligated to tithe this gift. Rather, you should feel obligated to honor your grandfather's wishes and the conditions that he places on the gift. If you do still feel obligated, then why not provide something of equal value to the Lord's church through some other kind of sacrifice -- like service. For example, let's say the tithing on this gift would otherwise be $2.50 per week. If you were working for the federal minimum wage, that $2.50 would be worth about 30 minutes of work. So, instead of going against your grandfather's wishes, maybe you could spend 30 minutes per week fixing broken hymn books with Elmer's glue or something like that. I used to do that when I was a teenager. Every week at church, I would find a broken book and take it home. I would repair it then return it the next week when I went to church. Again, I don't think you should worry about it, but providing some other kind of value to the church could be a reasonable alternative if you continue to feel the need. The Lord is more merciful than you think. He loves you. He wants you at church. Be kind to yourself about this. And paraphrasing Jesus, "The sabbath [or tithing] was made for man, and not man for the sabbath [or tithing]" :) (Mark 2:27) With hope for your happiness, Pelagius

Thank you for sharing your experience with your daughter. I can relate to the pain this has brought to you, although my experience is fairly said to be on a very different scale. My elementary-school-aged son was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes and hypothyroidism last year and is currently undergoing test because of probable celiac disease. These are all auto immune disorders and the first and last profoundly affect one's life. Without proper and constant medical care and life-long self discipline, they lead to blindness, heart disease, liver and kidney failure, loss of limbs, high rates of lymphoma (cancer) and lots of other problems that will significantly shorten one's life. When I called my wife from the doctors office with the news, she started crying on the phone. You have to be strong, keep smiling, brave, hopeful, grateful. Every moment together is a blessing. And the little ones need to see strength and hope in your face so that they can feel safe and know that everything will be okay. All these experiences are for his good, your daughter's good, our good, and will bring added glory in the end to all of us. I am sure you know how this has made you grow, perhaps more humble, more grateful for the little moments, more reliant upon the Lord. And the big picture shows us that it's all a blessing, its okay both now and in the end. Christ has overcome all of this and so we are blessed to struggle for our sakes and we can't deny another their struggle and the blessings and glory it means to them and their Heavenly Father (even if it breaks our hearts).

Hi Belmar I'd like to relate something that happened to me while I served as a missionary. It's less personal than the good advice and input that others have already given -- but may be relevant in terms of the spiritual side of your relationship with your bishop. During the first few months of my mission, two other missionaries in my district had bought into a stupid rumor that the mission president was skimming money out of the missionaries' support funds that were wired each month from SLC. We were in a foreign country where the monetary exchange rates fluctuated drastically from month to month and hyper inflation really hurt the local people financially. Anyway, I had little respect for these two missionaries, not just because of their rumors, but also because of other ways in which they refused to keep the mission rules, etc. Nevertheless, their words began to weigh on me and I started to harbor doubts about my new mission president. Not long after this, we were called to attend a multi-zone conference with probably 100 other missionaries. We traveled by bus for hours, then spent the entire day in training or working with the local missionaries. And here's the part that I really wanted to share. I went into the conference with concerns about the mission president -- ideas in my head that true or not, would have definitely affected my relationship with him and my ability to accept his counsel. During part of our training, we all met in the chapel where the mission president's assistants were teaching from the front, using a large blackboard. The mission president sat in the front row observing and listening to our comments as the class went on. As one of the assistants made some point, which I can not now recall, the mission president took the opportunity to stand from his seat and emphasize the point, adding his own perspective. As soon as he stood and began to speak, I felt the Holy Spirit in such power that I felt I might loose my strength like Lehi, and just be carried off into some vision or dream. It overwhelmed me somehow, and I had to concentrate to remain still and keep my breathing steady. As soon as the mission president ceased speaking and sat down, the power subsided and I more or less returned to feeling normal. A little bit later, the mission president stood to speak again in the same way he had before. Immediately, the same power overcame me and I knew that he had been called of God and that my previous concerns or doubts were not relevant in any way to my relationship with him. As I write about this experience, I feel in a small measure a similar feeling and am reminded that he was called of God. I believe the same principle applies to our Bishops and any leader called by revelation and the laying on of hands. It's been over 16 years now since I had that experience, and I can still feel it inside when I recall it. Final comment. Our leaders our imperfect men and women. I have been a leader more than once in various callings and I know only too well how imperfect I am. We shouldn't let this stand in our way of respecting the priesthood through which our callings come. And this knowledge should inspire us to patience and mercy as we deal with others who are responsible in many ways for OUR spiritual nurture and wellbeing. That's all. :)

Just one last thought. You mentioned that "little research" had been done on this topic. Nevertheless, any neurologist could tell you a lot about sleep paralysis. And there are probably some who specialize in sleep disorders. It's not rare and has multiple causes, and sometimes, it just happens -- like a temporary phase as someone's brain experiences some undefined change that affects the normal sleep patterns. Fact is, WE ALL experience it every night during REM sleep (while we dream). It's God's built in defense to keep us from hurting ourselves while we are dreaming. It would be abnormal not to experience it in this way. However, when a person experiences what you described, it's because they awaken to some level of consciousness but the normal mechanism that restores the voluntary control of your muscles has not kicked in. Thus, you feel awake and are aware to some degree but you can't move. That fact that this is happening as you go into or come out of sleep suggest very strongly on that you are experiencing "normal" sleep paralysis -- not demonic possession. Otherwise, your evil spirit would be bothering you while you're awake. It's only logical. :) You experience sleep paralysis numerous times every night while you sleep. Why jump to some other cause when in fact your body has been doing it as a natural event over and over again, every night, and depending on how long you were asleep, probably multiple times already during the nights when you experience the awakening paralysis. That said, I know that spiritual beings also can influence our bodies. I have had such experiences, once quite profoundly while wide awake -- and driving my car of all places. That was a bit un-nerving but it taught me something about the dark side. So, do what you know is correct. But if it continues to happen, I would definitely consider seeing a neurologist. It doesn't mean you have a disease, but it could suggest a sleep disorder.

Thank you Jason. I enjoy your postings. I would like to add that in my 27 years as a mature latter day saint, I have also never known anyone who said they'd have to be a Jesus on another earth. I think that anyone who vocalized that sort of idea at church would get sympathetic eyebrows in response at best. We have a hard enough time defending the "uniqueness" of some of the doctrine we do believe to actually put up with silly things like that.

Hey Vinny15. I have experienced sleep paralysis many times. My sister also began experiencing it sometime in her lates 30s or 40s and was diagnosed with a sleep disorder called Narcolepsy. Most people are familiar with the narcoleptic symptom of sudddenly falling fast asleep in response to some strong emotion. Not all naraleptics do that though -- that never happened to my sister. There's a full range of symptoms -- sleep paralysis being one of them. HOWEVER, sleep paralysis also happens to people who are not narcoleptic. I experienced sleep paralysis frequently from about age 19 through 22 then not so frequently through my twenties. It's now been many years since I have had an episode. For me -- I would wake up but be unable to move. Sometimes my eyes would be open and I would impose dreams visually onto the real things around me -- like seeing a giant spider on the ceiling or a dancing baby on one of the dining room chairs. Sometime I would imagine an evil presence or feel as though someone were pinning me down by the wrists or by placing their weight on top of my body. All just part of the dream anyone might naturally invent when faced with such a strange and unpleasant experience. I would try to yell, tell someone to shake me, but without affect. In any case, I would definitely not jump to some spiritual conclusion. I would treat this as a medical question. Your doctor will probably suggest a session of sleep analysis, to see what's happening in your head as you fall asleep and pass through the various stages of sleep.

Hi there. Are you sure you heard the talk and subsequent discussion clearly? Zero offense intended, mostly it sounds a bit like goble-dee-goop to me. How long have you been familiar with the LDS ?

Back (closer) to the original point of this string .. . Moroni, the book's final contributor, anticipated errors in The Book of Mormon when he composed the message that's printed on the cover page. He said, "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ." I know it's true Yediyd. And I believe you when you say that you do too. Keep that spiritual knowledge bound within you as you continue your search for truth. Questions are healthy and the answers are exciting. Once the spiritual knowledge has been gained by the power of the Holy Ghost, you are free to prove all things without having to entertain doubt. It's no longer doubt that will motivate the searching, but rather, a thirst for truth and righteousness. -- and the desire to have meaningful factual answers for those who do feel doubt because of these anti-mormon arguments.

Here's a pretty detailed source. The Church Publishes a New Triple Combination The information you want is near the end of the article, under the subheading "Texts Additions and Corrections." Keep in mind that this article is about the publishing of the Triple Combination, which is the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Prices inside of one cover. So, there's a lot that doesn't address your specific question.

"Updates" are not common. If I am reading this correctly, the current edition was published in 1981 (see back of the The Book of Mormon's title page). Also, look at the first few pages in your Book after the title page -- find the "Brief explanation About The Book of Mormon. The last paragraph explains that some minor errors in text were corrected in this edition. Is your friend a latter day saint? I get the feeling that one of the mis-informations commonly passed around in anti-mormon circles is that the church is always having to change things to clean up after itself. It's not true. I am not trying to demean your friend. Many people get false ideas about our church from the ministers and teachers of their own church. Much of it is sincere. But more of it comes from dark animosity, passed along to innocent truth seekers to keep them from investigating the restored gospel. I am pretty sure I've seen a detailed analysis -- in an article somewhere -- describing the kinds of errors that have been repaired in The Book of Mormon. Mostly errors in editing -- spelling, punctuation, etc. If I can find it, I'll post a link or something for you.

I am glad for you. I've been reading some of your other posts and the heavy discussion that has followed. Some responses have been a little insensitive. I hope you don't let that bother you. I am a convert -- of some 20 plus years now. There is a lot to learn, but all in all, I am continuously amazed at the doctrinal harmony and completeness flowing from the restoration of the gospel. Still, a person doesn't change their heart just because of doctrines. We change because of the hope, love, excitement and joy we feel as we come to know the Savior. True doctrine makes that possible.