valkator

Some articles for further exploration of the 'connection' between 'Jesus', 'Paul', and 'Apollonius of Tyana' within the context of the creation of 'Christianity'... :) Apollonius, Jesus and Paul: Men or Myths? Origins of the New Testament Dark Side of the Sun

I'm doing exactly that - and that is how I am relating to the Truth as I'm investigating. :)

Well, if we think about who was actually present when the heavens 'opened up', the 'spirit descended', and the 'voice declared' during the baptism - then that particular image isn't really all that shocking. Particualrly, if you take the notion seriously of Heavenly Father being not only an 'exalted being', but also existing 'offworld' in either another location/dimensional existence - then a 'craft' appearing within this context makes perfect sense. I don't believe there's anything that speaks against any of the higher beings, including HF, using or having this method of 'transportation'. Either way, there are many possibilities...and I don't think 'little green men' have anything to do with it. :)

The history of Islam can only be understood by studying it from the multiple angles and histories it understands itself from. It's best to not project our own sense of history, identity, and 'ways of living' onto them. There is an effort on the part of many Muslim apologists to whitewash the development of their religion, the history surrounding it, and the utter brutality that has characterized it from the beginning. It's unfortunate that many, in their wanting to remain optimistic about the 'good nature' of people, have a difficult time seeing through the veil of Islam; to actually look at it and see the reality for what it is. What's happening in Iraq, Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and throughout the Muslim world is what has always been. From its inception, it has been plagued by slaughter, genocide, warfare, conquering, and the subjegation of its enemies through any and all means. It's own internal and bloody factionalism, as we see today on display throughout much of the Muslim world, was even more bloody in the beginning. Look at the Shia and Sunni chronicles of their respective sects' history and you will see not a peaceful, once-benign and peace-loving religion that has fallen away from a 'gloden age' - but brutal and genocidal rival factions all competing for power and control. The 'religion' of Islam is a political and social constitution and less of a religion. Wherever it has gained power and the people submitted, agency has disappeared and been ruthlessly eliminated. The only trend within Islam that even approaches 'spiritual' would be the Sufi-linked groups - and even they are marginal and have little to no influence in the wider Islamic world. It's ironic that ONLY in the non-Islamic nations do the 'reformers' or 'moderate' Muslims exist in any significant numbers. In their own lands they, basically, do not exist at all other than as marginalized individuals who will never speak up since they will be killed if they do so. While it's good to not generalize and to always have empathy for the suffering of others regardless of their religion, we have to keep in mind that Islam is being pushed as the major 'cure' to all the problems of 'the West' - and many are buying into the sinister deception because the 'West' is attempting to defend itself with force and Muslims as a whole are being portrayed as the 'victims'. By not directly challenging its claims and meeting the test - which is not simply a military one but a spiritual one at the core - we may all find ourselves living in the grip of a system that would destroy us all.

Here's some interesting art work with 'extra-terrestrial' religious themes: This painting hangs above the altar at the Visoki Decani Monestary in Kosovo, Yugoslavia - painted in 1350AD A disk shaped object is shining beams of light down on John the Baptist and Jesus - Fitzwilliam Musuem, Cambridge, England - Painted in 1710 by Flemish artist Aert De Gelder This painting was done by Carlo Crivelli (1430-1495) and is called "The Annunciation with Saint Emidius" (1486) and hangs in the National Gallery, London Below: Sego Canyon, Utah. Estimated up to 5,500 BC - According to Indian folklore, two objects collided high in the sky and one crash-landed in the region of Death Valley. Some men arrived (presumably in another ship) and spent some time repairing the damaged craft and were observed by the local Indians.

I'm not sure I was going anywhere with my thoughts other than to see how congruent they may be within an LDs context. Like yourself, I see the journey as being the reality versus a 'set in stone' destination, per se. That may be the best way to characterize where I was going with that. :)

I've been thinking about the 'plan of salvation' as understood within the LDS context and, in the attempt to see it more clearly from a personal standpoint, I have a few questions - or maybe observations(?) - that I want to share to see how far they are from the 'general' LDS interpretation. I'm not going to spell out the entire LDS 'plan of salvation', but offer how I see it operating based on my experience and understanding of reality. Firstly, I should say that I do not, generally, disagree with the plan of salvation and do personally relate and resonate with it as I see it. However, I do not view the interpreted outline of it in linear terms - meaning that from the creation of the world to the 'end' - with exaltation, damnation, and so forth is not a straight line of 'once and for all' events -- but ever-present realities that are always in 'operation'. What do I mean? All of these events that are projected into the past and into the future are, as I see things, happening within a constant 'now'. There is no 'set date' of a once and for all past creation of man, fall of man and atonement - as there is not a 'once and for all' movement into one of three 'future' kingdoms after a once and for all resurrection that takes places once and for all at a set 'time'. More specifically, we are constantly in a state of 'pre-existence' on the way to another state of 'pre-existence'. We view 'where we were' prior to being in our current form as a state of 'pre-mortal' or 'pre-existence'....and this current 'existence' will be such for us when we 'look back' after we've move on to 'wherever'. The 'plan of salvation', the work of Christ, and so forth, aren't simply realities of the linear past that relate only to this planet - but are never-ending and are always happening everywhere that 'creation' is occuring. I do understand why things would be taught in linear terms, given that human beings tend to only see things along a 'straight line' in terms of time and history. It's a useful way to relay the 'message', but I don't see it being limited in that way either. Going further... The destination of 'where we go' at the 'end' of any one of our manifestations through form, typified by saying that we move into a celestial, terrestrial, or telestial realm, is dependent on what we 'do' and how we 'link' or 'participate' in the eternal 'plan of salvation' that is in operation in any given state of our existence...so to speak. And, this does not 'end'. In other words, after we exit our current form, we do not 'wait', in terms of 'time' as we understand it to be, to enter 'the next stage' in any of the three realms we may enter - and these are not, simply, 'final destinations'. The 'path' may be outlined in this linear fashion so that people might be able to understand it, somewhat, but again -- I do not relate to it at all that way. Ironically, we could end up 'back' in a celestial realm and just as conceivably 'fall' again if we do not 'progress' from 'there'. Eternal progression suggests that a next 'stage' cannot be the final realm one ends up within - though one may spend considerable 'time' there - depending on how we understand 'time'. Finally, I should say that I'm not proposing 'reincarnation' as that would imply 'many lives' and I don't see life - mine or anyone else's - as being anything other than 'one life' -- regardless of the manifestations. Any comments and questions are appreciated -- :) Brigham Young has said, “… there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity.”

I would recommend the following work for anyone interested: Biogenesis: The Creation of Man By An Angelic Species ...and then cross reference with LDS material... :)

When the average human being who primarily exists within a third dimensional 'world' attempts to think about the presence of higher beings or 'aliens' either from another third dimensional 'world' or that may exist within higher dimensional 'worlds', it's almost like observing a hypothetical group of ants in a colony trying to figure out why, periodically, some amongst them seem to end up flattened when the sky darkens and falls down on them for no apparent reason -- or -- when a bright light appears suddenly and many are engulfed in flames right before their very eyes. Of course, they would have no real perceptual ability to understand the foot of a human being, let alone what a human being is -- along with having no idea that some very vicious of these humans have magnifying glasses and like to 'fry ants' when they are kids. With knowledge and long study, however, some amongst them might start to see things a little more clearly -- as much as can be expected from an ants point of view. Here's a very good introduction from a, generally, LDS point of view on this subject which may help to introduce some of the conceptual realities involved when we're attempting to discuss and attempting to deal with the reality of 'aliens', 'higher beings' (including Heavenly Father and the other gods), and 'other worlds' from our current point of reference. Thoughts on Higher-dimensional Realms

I'm not the same person as Vinny, Dr. T. Anyhow, the story is metaphorical and allegorical to a change in the sun's (hence the name of 'god' changes) processional position through the houses of the zodiac. Do you know why 'Baal' couldn't start the fire? It has to do with the position of the sun in the zodiac. 'Baal' couldn't start a fire because 'he' wasn't located in his former position vis-a-vis the zodiac. 'He' became false at that point and many 'pagans' continued to worship this 'false' god. Baal was the name of 'god' used in this geographic area while the sun was located in the House of Taurus (which, also explains why Moses found the lagging-behind Israelites STILL worshipping the 'golden calf' - Baal - god still associated with the previous cycle name, position, and imagery), while Iao/Yahweh/Jahovah was the 'new name' in the 'new processional age' located in the House of Aries. It's a bit more complicated than that and doesn't mean that the 'sun' was being honored and worshipped as some imply in their seeing this relationship. However, the name difference and change has nothing to do with a 'false god' in the sense you are suggesting. The actual 'being 'associated with the names Baal and Yahweh is one and same.

The name Baal became 'false' when the name was changed...sort of like saying 'you need to keep up with the 'times, Dr. T.' :)

Not sure if there is any connection here, but Apollo is the sun god -- just as Yahweh, formerly called Baal (designating the sun god in the age of Taurus), is the changed Hebrew derivative of the Egyptian Iao - again a 'sun god'. Yahushua - the hebrew name for 'Jesus' means -'Yahweh Saves' -- or the 'sun god' saves. Where 'Paul' fits into this may be related to some speculations I've come across that suggest the figure of Paul and the figure of Jesus were the same person...

Dr. T - The key to bridging the gap in understanding lies, I think, in coming to an understanding of the distinction between the Transcendent and Immanent realities - and who/what 'God' is. In a sense, this 'distinction' is not very sharp - but having the two in mind helps to see that we are all, conscious of it or not, BOTH of these things. The 'traditional' view of 'God' in unrestored Christianity, Judaism, and Islam is that God is completely transcendent and separate from creation. The only 'immanence' that is allowed for is: 1. Christ is the only immanent manifestation of the Father in unrestored Christianity. 2. The Jewish people as a whole are the only immanent manifestation of God in Judaism. 3. God is solely Transcendent in Islam and no immanent manifestation is allowed for at all. You see, the issue here isn't whether the ultimate Source (God in the above equations) is Transcendent and 'beyond' creation, but in what sense is this Source also immanent within and through creation and in what 'degrees' as we look at the 'levels' of creation. I'm not LDS and am not well-versed in the theology and doctrine, but I'd like to use an analogy that, I think, highlights the LDS understanding of Transcendence and Immanence. It's one that I see and resonate with: When you 'dream', you have the ability to be lucid within your dreams. What does this mean? It means that you have the ability to enter into, direct, and shape everything that happens within your dreams. You can take on multiple 'forms' within it -- see things from many different perspectives -- and still maintain a unitary viewpoint from the perspective that 'you' are the one dreaming through all of what you do while in that state. This, I think, points out a very good way to see 'God' at work within creation, itself. Now, we know that there are many levels within creation - each with different 'levels' of lucid awareness based on many different factors; Humans are more 'aware' than animals, and so on. Now, if humans are the creation of a more lucid being/species - Heavenly Father - head of the elohim - and he is called 'God' because He has a more lucid awareness of Who He Is within the 'dream' - then it makes perfect sense for Him to communicate this same knowledge to the 'children' he has created -- adjusted for the 'level of lucidity' that these children have, given their Fall. Now, the question arises, why not just 'worship' and 'honor' the Source, itself? I mean, isn't the Source transcendent from creation/the dream? Isn't Heavenly Father ALSO a 'son' of this Source? Yes! -- but -- the Source is IMMANENT at the exact same time through all of us. Heavenly Father isn't 'closer' in material terms to the Source than we are (matter is transient and limited to the Dream, itself), but He is more AWARE of who He is. This is why He calls us to awaken to our own Godhood and has provided the 'path' so that we may do so. We honor Him as our Father and as 'God' and seek to awaken (reawaken) to our True nature that He has tried to show us - that we are God(s) also. However, 'awaken' doesn't simply mean that we 'exit the Dream' because we 'unite with the transcendent' that is beyond us. It means that we lucidly create the Dream, itself -- we continue the 'eternal progression' of creation, itself - because We (the Source) are Immanent AND Transcendent. You can attempt to unite with the Transcendent as if its something removed from yourself (and many try to do this), but do you know what happens then? You destroy yourself because you drift toward non-Being. You can attempt to unite everyone else with the Transcendent as if its something separate from them (almost ALL religions teach this), too -- and you know what happens? You destroy them as well as yourself - because you have lost lucidity and are seeking to 'wake up' by 'dieing' - also a drift to non-Being. How can one unite with what one already IS? So, now things come down to whether or not we can see the lucid reality for what it is -- see the Heavenly Father for who He is -- and whether or not we can begin to see who WE are - in relation to Heavenly Father and everything else. This is what 'becoming gods' is about -- not some 'power trip' so that we can rule over anyone or anything else...or claim 'we are gods' as if this sets us apart from anyone else who ALSO have the same potential. It makes you wonder who the 'god' is that speaks through Judaism, Islam, and unrestored Christianity...?

Vinny -- it's good to hear that the issues have subsided. I dont know if my insights will make any sense or help elucidate the situation any further, but here's some things to consider from my own experiences and pondering over related things I've encounterd with dreams and the larger reality they point to beyond the dreams themselves. Many have characterized these types of events as strictly biological/neurological in nature and solely centered in the brain as it impacts the central nervous system during stages/events within sleep. While this explanation makes alot of sense within the materialist view that most modern, western science adheres to, we should keep in mind that the soul/spirit (the passenger) operates through the body (the vehicle) and that during sleep, the soul is less bound within it. This is the foundational explanation as to why the body shuts down during sleep -- with the material explanations of what the body does during sleep following. Medical science, as it is presently understood and practiced, is unable to go beyond explanations that do not center and arise within the body itself. This is a fundamental limitation that can't be ignored when trying to understand what dreams are, what happens during them, and what happens with the body during and after dreaming. Dreams are not simply memory patterns happening within the brain itself. 'Memories' are the actual living of events that the soul experiences as 'now events'. The brain, because of the limited, terrestrial nature of the body, interprets the soul's activities and experiences as a 'memory'. It does this not because the event didn't just happen -- but because the terrestrial, human body, as it is currently constituted, is unable to accomodate the full 'spirit/soul body' that is 'you'. You can test the validity of this reality out by thinking of, say, something you did yesterday and then 're-live' it within your mind. You might start out perceiving this as something that happened yesterday and that you are not doing it again. However, as you are 're-living' it, you will notice new things surrounding the past event that you weren't aware of at the 'time' you did them. In fact, you will see entirely new things happening to you that you were not aware of 'then'. Going further, you may even see your own actions completely differently than you 'thought' you did when you set out to 're-live' the experience. Consequently, and not without some outer-originating resistance due to the 'consensus reality' that is known as the 'terrestrial, linear world' that we are living through and are making our current lives within, you will interpret the entire sequence differently - again, as if it just happened with all the attendent 'changes' apparent. Your behavior also changes in relation to the new awareness you have gained about something you did in the 'past'. So which sequence is true? Which one 'actually' happened? The one you set out to 're-live' originally -- or the one you now see with the new 'angles' of awareness you just saw the event from? And most importantly, was it the brain that did the 're-living'? This, I think, raises many questions as to how we actually learn, what growth really is, and how one moves into the celestial realms of existence. At any rate, how does this relate to dreams? This type of non-linear existence directly relates to how we look at dreams, what happens during them, and what we experience when we begin to 'wake up in the body' once again. Anyone who has ever begun to wake up but initially sees things from a perspective that they are outside the sleeping body -- looking around the bedroom, for instance, or looking down at your sleeping body; this is coming from a vantage point of your 'Self' that is ouside of the brain - -outside of the body itself. What we encounter -- and who -- often can result in the type of paralysis some experience due to a lacking of lucidity (prayerful awareness) of the soul and how it relates to the terrestrial body. This paralysis might be explained because dreams are, primarily, events taking place outside of the body; which the brain/body processes when the soul/spirit more fully 'reattaches' itself to the body and terrestrial consciousness of being 'in the body' resumes. If we've encountered negative influences, this can be quite a shock in the 'awakening' process, especially if we've been battling them in some fashion. The key to remaining centered through dreams is to pray, meditate, and strengthen the soul to meet these challenges to our Being in (and out of!) this terrestrial form we are currently travelling through. :)

It's likely that they would if we are translating 'elohim' strictly as 'God' and 'B'nei Elohim' as 'sons of God'. El' is the title of 'father' or the 'king' of many high ranking angels (or 'gods') - and was also the chief Canaanite deity. El, then, is a specific, deified being within creation - the 'father of the gods'/'Heavenly Father', so to speak - that would be the source of human creation and the source of the human potential in immanent terms. To accurately say 'sons of God' with it meaning the 'sons of the Being/God/Deity', however, we would say B'nei Eloah -- which is a 'generic' reference to the 'sons' of THE God (Being/Deity, etc) of all that completely transcends creation itself (manifesting in 'degrees' through the various levels of creation 'He' operates through) -- even the 'El' (Heavenly Father), 'B'nei El'/ 'B'nei Elohim' - as well as B'nei Adam- would be considered 'B'nei Eloah' in this respect. So, it's a matter of 'degree' as i'm seeing how those people of that day would perceive this -- and how it would be revealed to them. :)