jasonnooson

I agree with all of that. The problem is that nothing in your analigy requires Christ to suffer and be killed to do what he did for the soccer players. Everything in your story can come just by looking to Christ, following his example. No where in your story did you mention the coach having to suffer and die for what he ended up doing. That is where the logic of the Atonement ceases to make sense to me.

Mordorbund, Great reply, thank you. I agree with almost all of your response. I believe that our Heavenly Father is more of a law-teacher. One of the things I love about the doctrines of the church are how much sense they make. With few exceptions, when I ponder on a doctrine long enough I can see how that particular doctrine would adhere to some natural law. The main exception is the Atonement. It seems to be an anomoly (as I am sure you will say that it is just that). There seems to be no president for it. There seems to me to be no earthly example that logicaly supports it. I understand that it is possible that it just IS the way it IS and we just don't understand it. But just like with the law of gravity, we refuse to accept that it just IS. We try to come up with explanations that would explain the results of gravity. We don't just accept it. I do not believe in just accepting any doctrine. I believe all doctrine can be understood logically because God is logical. And you may be right, there may be no way to comprehend it without direct revelation. However, I have found God usually does not just give us revelation for free. It comes after struggling with a question ourselves first, and then he adds knowledge. You basically summed up the answer pretty well, which is: I don't know. You don't know. It appears to be a natural law that the law-teacher has told us about and requires revelation for the full answer. However, it still doesn't make sense to me so I will continue to strive to adjust my understanding of natural law and doctrine until my view of natural law fits with what we know about the Atonement.

Why would making an error mean we can never become Celestial Beings? As you said, "it is something we become." How do we become something different here in the mortal world? By learning, either by books, a mentor, experiance, and then we apply that new knowledge. The application repeated changes us. When we error, it teaches us. Errors one of the BEST teachers actually. It is the making of errors and learning from them that is so fundimental to us becoming anything. So it does not seem to follow that errors in and of itself means we can never become Celestial Beings. Under any other circumstance we would not accept this logic. If I asked someone how to become an Olympic athlete and they said, "You need to work really hard, you need to learn all you can about your sport and how to train. You need to do everything you can. But that will still not be enough. You will also need "Ted" who has never made a mistake in your sport, never had a single flaw in your sport, to make a payment (you pick the kind of payment) to Justice and then you will be good enough to compete at the Olympic level" we would say "That makes no sense." We may want "Ted" as a mentor and a coach, but what does his payment have to do with whether I am good enough to compete at the Olympic level? I know what the scriptures say about justice. My issue is that there is no logical mechanism that I can see that justifies our Heavenly Father sacrificing his Son to remove a barrier.

Thank you for your reply. I have already replied several times on here so I will make this brief. I agree with your definitions at the top. I agree we need to become one with God. I agree we need knowledge. I agree we must be clean, meaning we are at one with the will of God. But how do we get from this to "we need God to sacrifice his son to the law" or else a being that is at one with God's will can't come back to him. That does not make sense to me. You said "the law requires that the spirit gets banished from God's presence." The law requires it? What law? If you say "God's Law" then he is the creator of it and is not bound by it because if he created it he can alter it. If you say "Natural Law that even God is subject to" then it seams the "Natural Law" would be that if you are like God you can be with him. I don't understand how a Natural Law would require God to sacrifice his Son to it. I don't see how that follows

Thank you for your reply. I have already replied several times on here so I will make this brief. I agree with your definitions at the top. I agree we need to become one with God. I agree we need knowledge. I agree we must be clean, meaning we are at one with the will of God. But how do we get from this to "we need God to sacrifice his son to the law" or else a being that is at one with God's will can't come back to him. That does not make sense to me. You said "the law requires that the spirit gets banished from God's presence." The law requires it? What law? If you say "God's Law" then he is the creator of it and is not bound by it because if he created it he can alter it. If you say "Natural Law that even God is subject to" then it seams the "Natural Law" would be that if you are like God you can be with him. I don't understand how a Natural Law would require God to sacrifice his Son to it. I don't see how that follows

Edspringer, Thank you for the post and for the numerous references. Just a couple additional points. Referencing the paragraph which starts “But after the separation…”: If we follow all of Heavenly Father’s commandments, believe in Christ’s teachings and learn to be like him, why would we be devils? We wouldn’t be devils, we would be like Christ. I don’t see how some suffering in a garden changes the fact that we would not be devils, but Christ like. “But what power could do that?” How about the same being who created us. Our Heavenly Father. He is all powerful, but he couldn’t allow a Christ like being to return to him unless he performs a sacrifice of his Son? To Whom did he sacrifice his son? Who external to our Father unlocked the door and allowed our Father to accept the Christ like “devil” into his kingdom? You would say “Christ”, but later you say that Christ got the power to perform the atonement from the Father. So that becomes a circular argument. In reference to “We, for ourselves, can do nothing. Everything happens by and through the power of God Almighty, by and through the power of the atonement. Can our works make us go to Heaven? No, but there’s plenty to do on our own. Basically we have to align our will with the will of the Father, Who knows all.”: At first you say we can do nothing, but then it says we must align our will to the will of the Father. Which is it? Our whole purpose for this life is to learn to align our will to the will of the Father. That is way we have opportunities to learn here. That is why the Brother of Jared was asked by Christ what he wanted him to do instead of just telling him how to fix his problem. So if we have learned to align our will to the will of our all might Father in Heaven, why is our Father still not allowed to allow us into his kingdom without sacrificing his Son to….to what? Thank you again for all of the references. I will look into them.

Awakened, Thank you for your response. I don't believe that the beings in the Celestial kingdom will be beings who are good people who have just had their debts paid by someone else. They will people who know how to BE Celestial Beings. I believe there will be a time we are learning to be greater and greater beings, but this life is a time to "prepare to meet God." This life is where we get ourselves on the path of eternal progression. Cold hard logic does not show that no matter what kind of person I am someone else can just turn me into a Celestial type person by making some sort of currency payment to, well, who (I don't even understand who the payment is made to). The thing is, everything we need to repent and be worthy of the Atonement's payment is exactly what we would need to do in order to become a Celestial Person. So why the need for a payment? Who is the payment to, some obscure concept of "Justice"? How does this payment make me any different a person than I was before the payment? Concept of 3-1 = 2 above ASSUMES the need for a payment to begin with. If you don't assume the need for an Atonement, I don't see how logic gets you to the need for it.

Thank you for the reply. Just an FYI, your opening can be taken as pretty condisending. Your first point basically can be summed up by saying "the reason you need the atonement is because you need the atonement." Not very helpful. Also, the reason you would be "worthy" is because you have become a Celestial person. If I want to be worthy to compete at such a level as the Olympic games, I become worthy by becoming an Olympic level athlete. Not because someone else convinces the Olympic committee to let me in and pays some thirdy party price. I never said there are no rules, which is why I believe only those who "fit in" with those who are in the Celestial kingdom will be there. Not because our Heavenly Father makes some decree, but because we are not the kind of being that would feel comfortable there (I believe this is very merciful. The different degrees of glory provide a way for all of us, no matter what kind of beings we are, a place to be with those we fit in with). I recognize the Saviors place in helping us become the kind of person that belongs in the Celestial Kingdom, but who is the Atonement making a payment to? Who is it that demands a payment of sacrifice to satisfy this law? If Heavenly Father is the law inventor, then he can also be the forgiver. If he is not, and it is natural law, than there are natural punishments for my actions. When I have purged all evil from my soul, what natural punishment will continue to come to me?

Can someone help me understand why we would need a being to perform an atonement and be sacrificed for us and be our mediator? I see questions similar to this often, but I feel I look at it uniquely and have not seen answers beyond the standard Sunday School answers. Here is the way I see it. The Celestial Kingdom will be inhabited by those of us who have BECOME Celestial beings. We become Celestial beings by practice. By training here on Earth and changing our hearts and minds by serving others and all of the other training guidlines we often call "commandments." (Meaning the commandments are simply the guidlines Heavenly Father has revealed that, if followed, will help us become Celestial beings). No one can turn me into a Celestial being any more than someone can turn me into an Olympic Athlete (yes, the Olympics are going on so it seemed like a good reference). No sacrifice or payment by another person could ever turn me into an Olympic Athlete unless I do what is required to become one. I don't see how Christ suffering and dieing in any way changes me and turns me into a Celestial being. He can give me guidence, the Holy Spirit can comfert me, I can follow Christ's example, but none of these things require the atonement (as far as the physical actions of the Atonement are concerned). I know some will say "we all fall short, and Christ makes up the difference." Or "Justice must be met." But both of these make no sense to me. First, fall short of what? Either we are the kind of beings that belong in the Celestial Kingdom or not when we die. Christ's suffering and death don't change what I have done in my life and make me a different person. Only practicing being a different person does that. The Atonement doesn't magically get me to love my fellow man if I haven't learned to do that already. Second, the justice thing. Why is our Heavenly Father restricted by some sort of justice? I understand we can't get to the Celestial Kingdom unless we are the kind of beings that belong there, but what does this have to do with any sort of punishment that must be paid for? If someone steals from me and then 10 years later they come to me and appologize for it but say they don't have the money to pay me back - I can just forgive them. If I see they are not the same person they were when they stole from me I can just forgive them and tell them to forget about it. If I can do that, why can't our Heavenly Father. Why does he have to collect some payment whether he likes it or not? Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to make sure I covered possible common answers and explain exactly why I can't understand it. This is something that has bothered me for a long time so I want to thank anyone in advance for any replys.