Gazing at essence

I have been doing a lot of deep thinking recently and have read all of the responses now. I really appreciate all of the comments and advice from you guys. @Vort@Just_A_Guy@mdfxdb I just now read your comments and all of them helped me a lot. After going through the temple and supplicating the Lord for direction, I have been filled with a reassurance that there is not a right or wrong decision in this case. However, the guidance I have received is that if I am to pursue an even more serious relationship with her, I need to let go of her past completely. I am still trying to work through a few things and figure out what is best for the both of us. @yjacketI noticed that you mentioned the severity of the situation increases when we consider the fact that many of her sexual sins were committed after her mission. I have to say, more than anything I am worried that she and I have different attitudes towards the covenants that we made with the Lord. I am not sure I understand what the word even means to her. There is still more to figure out but I will update the forum when a final decision is made. Thanks to everyone for the care and support. God bless.

Update: Today we talked on the phone for over an hour. Just a reminder: we aren't currently both in the US. I wish we could have talked in person as well. But she should be coming back here relatively soon. Well to be honest, the news and details were quite a bit worse than I expected them to be. She poured out her soul to me and I absorbed it all. It was very emotional for both of us. @Latter-Day MarriageDon't worry I made sure she knows that she is forgiven and that she has nothing to be ashamed of or embarrass about at this point. She was really grateful that I listened and did not judge her or attack her. All I felt was love for her and a desire that she will be happy. That is what is about for me. Whether I become her husband or not, I want her to be happy and confident that she is forgiven, and not reminded by her future spouse that she was once covered in sexual transgression. It is crazy because in my mind I had drawn this line, and if she crossed it then I was out for sure. And well...yeah...she crossed it but I am not giving up on her. I walked out of the temple today feeling like everything would be okay. As soon as we had finished our hour or so talking about her past and mourning together/comforting each other, it was back to joking around and just talking about our days and plans for the weekend. She is special to me. She said she understands if her past sins are too much for me and again, I had to let her know that any man who would hold that against her doesn't deserve her. I told her it would take me time to accept everything in a mature manner but that I would try. We just go together, she even wants to be friends if things don't work out. At the same time, I cannot imagine only being friends. So I will resume my praying and scripture study. And we will see how things go from here. This was my first time posting on mormonhub. I had read some articles and explored forums here before but today was the day I made my account. Thanks for taking the time to read about my life and offer advice. I feel very welcomed into this special online community.

@eddified Thank you for the advice. I feel really grateful right now to be realizing that I am in complete control of this situation. I felt a sense of reassurance today that I can stay or leave and still become the man the Lord wants me to become. It will take a lot of praying to know which path to take. I just want to be sure I have the Lord's approval.

@eddified Well I actually ended up finding out the details today. For me I just want our relationship to be one of trust and I don't want there to be any secrets. Maybe I am crazy, but I just see it bothering me more in the future if I don't know what she had been up to. Part of moving on for me is understanding the situation completely. Thanks of your advice and responses

@my two cents I just wanted to quickly thank you for the warm welcome and your thoughts. I will keep those things in mind. I appreciate it.

@DoctorLemon Thank you so much for your advice. It honestly means a lot to me. I hope that my knowledge of the atonement eventually grows to the point where I can look back with the type of mature perspective that you clearly have. I have been praying about it and I plan to continue doing so. Right now I feel so relieved though. She told me everything, yet I feel like it will all work out. You are spot on about her deserving praise for her honesty. I am so proud of her. Things are going to work out and I will let you know what happens. Seriously-thanks for such heartfelt direction.

@Eowyn I completely agree with you. I think she is feeling even more pressured right now because she is quite a bit older than me and she is starting to feel like she is running out of time to have a family and be a mother. This makes my heart ache worse because I want her to have an eternal family and experience the happiness that she deserves. I made sure today that she knows she is forgiven and clean. It hurt having to have this discussion over the phone when I just wanted to hold her. I told her that she deserves so much and is too good for a man that will not let her past go. I will be praying to the Lord and fasting to know what to do next. Although her past she illustrated today in detail was a lot more than I expected, I am not giving up on her yet.

@Jane_Doe Thanks for the kind compliment and for your support. I have appreciated all of your responses. You are an absolute sweetheart! I will continue to keep those interested in following this post updated on how everything turns out.

@yjacket It broke my heart to hear the details over the phone today but I feel calm right now. It was so much more than I expected btw.....I know that I can choose either route now with confidence (as soon as I am positive that the direction I am choosing is approved by the Lord). As far as STDs go she is clean. Yeah I was starting to get concerned about that area too. Just like you I believe everything should be spilled out on the table. Even if things have been repented of, a potential future spouse deserves to know!!! I agree with what you are saying about the media. It is just disgusting. And what bothers me more is that sometimes it seems like us church members try to understand sexual transgressions committed by members by placing different scenarios against a background of the world's standards. "Oh it could be much worse right?! That isn't even bad compared to most people huh?!". It almost seems like some sort of (hmmm I wouldn't say justification but) a hyper friendly perspective that can make us forget just how serious the Law of Chastity is. Our triumphs, sins, and attitude are all immortal. I agree with your most recent post as well. These things matter so much. Being told "it is no big deal" or "you need to forgive and forget" is hard because we are talking about eternity. Every step we take is helping determine our eventual destination. I was surprised to find out that a lot of her sins took place after her mission. I came across a scripture today in Jeremiah 13 which reads: Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. I think we all have different tendencies and a different conscience/method of judging. I am not saying people cannot overcome their instincts....buuuuut a leopard just doesn't change its spots. The tendencies and past of women I may date will influence my decisions. And I hope they pay close attention to my faults as well so they make a judicious decision as well. Good luck with your searching friend.

@Latter-Day Marriage Hey I appreciate your defense of her and your desire to make sure she is treated fairly. One of the problems with communicating over technology is that I can't show you all just how sorry I am and just how much I do actually care for her. I realize that my writing may reveal my prideful nature and my young attitude that certainly needs to mature. But I do want you to know that I mourned with her on the phone today and I made sure that she knows she is forgiven and that the problem is mine now. The problem being my ability to accept her for who she is and what she has done. I told her that she deserves a man who will not make her feel guilty because of things she has done in the past and repented of. (Maybe I will grow up into that man maybe I will not be able to. I am trying to become a better priesthood holder). I think I don't come across the right way on these posts. If you met me in person I reckon you would maybe think differently of me (at least different from the way your responses seem to imply). I am calm, caring, and would never want to see one of Heavenly Father's precious daughters cry. What I experienced today will be carved into my memory for forever. You did provide a lot of advice that I really appreciate. So I thank you for that. For the directness and the passion and the love. All of it.

@yjacket I appreciate how you have seen things from my perspective. As you can imagine I have been criticized recently for my hesitation to advance in the relationship. Now once I get to some more replies I will update my situation (because she and I just talked on the phone for over an hour) and let everyone know where things are right now. But I can already tell you are the type of person I get along with hahaha. Thanks for your comments. Now I do acknowledge that I am bringing a lot of extra burdens and stress to our situation but I just want to thank you for seeing through my eyes.

@Jane_Doe Your story was so tender. Thank you for opening up that part of your life to me. I have a sibling who went off having sex freely as a young teenager and I have family who were sexually abused as well so there are just so many different possible scenarios that we could encounter in our lives. I am realizing more and more that the most important thing to our spiritual well being is our current commitment to the gospel. I cannot thank you enough for the impact your post has had on my thought process. I am so glad that you and your husband are doing well. God bless you

@eddified Thank you for your kind advice. I appreciate your willingness to look at the situation from my perspective as well as her's. I have more to update on that I will post after I reply to some of the comments here. I would just like to mention that I think it is wonderful you have such a great relationship with your wife. I spent time in the temple today reading the scriptures that people shared on this page and I feel so much more comfortable and calm already. I am not sure where things will go from here but I feel like I am in control and I am going to sleep tonight.

I would definitely try to befriend them at church DoctorLemon. It may be that they are just uncomfortable with people they do not know well coming into their house. The important question to be asked is, "does this family simply not want us to come over to their house or do they not want to be home taught at all?". Maybe they are embarrassed with the tidiness of their home (it could be a million different things). I would encourage you to see if they might be interested in having a meal at your house or your home teaching companion's house. Or simply ask if you could get to know them and talk more just in a random room after church Sunday. I kind of have a feeling they are just apprehensive about you two going into their house. But look what you are doing now. You care enough to try and seek advice from others because you want to form a relationship with this family and fulfill your priesthood responsibilities! I cannot imagine any nice, active family that I know see your efforts and genuine desire to get to know them and then directly tell you not to come over. There is more to this and I have a feeling it is more to do with going into their house than home teaching in general. If you find out please let us know.

Thank you everybody for your comments and advice. I have taken in everything and plan to reread the Elder Holland talk mentioned and also study Luke 7 as both were recommended earlier. I am attending the temple today and will there pray to the Lord to know what He would have me do. I appreciate the compassion and sincerity of your replies. I would like to add that I understand the "problems" revolving around this situation are my own. She has repented and is clean now. A question along the lines of "how much time has passed since her last sexual activity" was asked earlier. The answer, to the best of my understanding, would be a couple of years. Now here are a few more of my concerns and thoughts: 1. As MrShorty questioned, yes I am very uncomfortable with the fact that she is much more sexually experienced than me. Not being able to learn and explore together sexually from square one is something I find extremely bothersome. And that is a consequence of her prior actions. I want to be able to mourn with those that mourn and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, but it almost seems like I am being punished for her sins as well 2. I know that my pride is a huge problem here. This may sound awful, but I really hesitate to call her sexually pure even if she is currently clean. Say a teenager were to purposefully do something really reckless and get in an accident where he loses an arm, he will live with that his whole life. The passage of time will never change the past. We can be freed from our sins and mistakes but not always the repercussions that they bring about. Latter-Day Marriage, I appreciated your thoughts but I struggle to agree with just a few things you mentioned (you did help me see it from her perspective better though ). One being that she has reclaimed her chastity (even if she is currently clean I would contend that that is something impossible to do). I think the apostles warn us of the consequences of breaking the Law of Chastity because it is something that can never be undone. You can be forgiven and made clean again but those poor choices were still made nonetheless and you cannot regain your virginity. I just cannot imagine being married to a woman throughout eternity and knowing that one of us had made serious sexual transgressions with another person before we married each other. How could I ever testify to my kids of the joys a couple who remained chaste until marriage will experience? How can I teach my kids the Lord's way and promise them blessings and comfort for obeying the Law of Chastity when my wife had neglected to obey it throughout her youth and young adulthood? 3. She is a wonderful daughter of God and she deserves someone who will get past this. I honestly do not know if I can mature to a level of compassion where I can be this person and not feel jealousy or sorrow. How can a Latter Day Saint couple where one or two of the spouses has seriously sexually transgressed expect more from their kids? How can they proclaim throughout the eternities how grateful they are that they had stayed true to the counsel of God in regards to sexual purity? It just doesn't seem to me like an obstacle that can be overcome. I realize I have a young, weak perspective so far from eternal. 4. I appreciated MrShorty's emphasis on it still being my choice and for eddified's respect of my preference. Would it be wrong to follow my dreams of marrying a virgin and leave her solely for this reason? I know she is forgiven but this is not the type of marriage I dreamed of as a kid and I just don't see me being happy in that type of a relationship. When I was a young boy at one of my first EFYs I watched an instructor cry as she said that she and her husband struggle with overcoming the husband's sexual transgressions of decades ago (I still have no clue why she shared this in front of such a large audience). I told myself in that moment "Heck I need to make sure that that is not me. I will do my part but wow, that just seems ugly". I am completely lost. 5. In Latter Day Saint culture (or other cultures where sexual abstinence before marriage is taught so diligently) do we have a right to ask our future spouses for a complete rundown of their sexual past? Is it fair to know all the details before making a decision?

Before I begin, I feel a sense of urgency in clearly stating from the get go that I understand this is an incredibly sensitive subject, and I am fully aware that there are plenty of people who have experienced the heartbreaking situation I am staring at. To you and also to those of different perspectives, I ask that you take the time to read this post and make an effort to see my trial from both my perspective and from her's (especially those who have walked either side of this road before) and please provide any insight or help that you may feel inclined to offer. Anything will be appreciated. It is 2:58 in the morning, and I still cannot sleep. I have a job interview tomorrow but that does not worry me really, I am actually looking forward to it. The real reason that my eyes are still open is because I see her and her former boyfriends and I cannot help but wonder the details that would cut the wound in my heart deeper. She called me on the phone a couple of days ago to open up about her sexual history a little bit after I had mentioned my thoughts on and commitment towards the Law of Chastity. Our communication is limited to FaceTime, phone calls, and text right now because we are currently in different countries. She did not tell me the details but she told me enough to where I can make a very good prediction concerning how far she has been with a couple of guys. Let me rewind: From the moment we first met there was an instant connection. Things just felt so different with her. Natural. Calm. Comfortable. I have not felt this strong of a bond with any girl in a long time. And this could of course grow firmer with time. I appreciated her honesty in telling me a little bit of her sinful past before things with us get too serious. I have heard horror stories of spouses lying to each other about the depth of their sexual history in order to get married in the temple to their finance, only for the truth to eventually creep its way out and destroy their superficially honest marriage. My prayers go out to people who have been lied to or betrayed in that sense, I cannot even imagine the pain they must experience. How grateful I am to know she trusts me enough to divulge her darker secrets. She did so with a quaking voice and although I could not physically see her face while we talked, I was able to see her crying. She mentioned that she has repented of them and talked with her bishop to overcome these sins. She told me she finds my commitment to the standards of the church beautiful, and she told me she understands if I want to only marry a woman who has been as faithful to the Law of Chastity as I have. I told her thank you multiple times for sharing such private information, and that I would like a little time to just think. And thinking is what I have done, what I am doing right now at this moment, and probably what I will be doing until I come to some sort of conclusion. The story of the prodigal son has always been very hard for me to read. I feel like the son who stayed on the farm watching the celebrations from a distance. I have grown up listening to the apostles and following their counsel to the best of my ability. I haven't committed sexual sins (major or minor) even though there have been times when I was tempted. I'll be honest: part of me is wondering why I even tried so hard. Plenty of youth and young adults slip into sexual transgression and then repent and become wonderful teachers of the gospel and bear powerful testimony. All of them talk about how much they have learned and benefited from their mistakes. Like me, do you also think they get the best of both worlds? I do not fully understand the atonement, and maybe that is why I often feel jealous of those who rebel and come back. They experience the pleasure of the world and also know the redeeming love of the gospel at a level I do not. I recognize that this is my own problem and I need to change in this respect, but I cannot help but watch the arrival of my younger brother from a distance and envy the experiences and also the warm welcome home that accompanied his journey. Since my earliest recollection, I told myself that I would only marry a woman who has remained pure and virtuous sexually. I passed up opportunities to adventure off sexually and continue to do so with a rooted hope that my future spouse is doing the same. I told myself no matter what that if the woman I was planning on marrying or a woman I was getting very serious with opened up about a sinful sexual past to me, I would thank them for their honesty and walk away. I understand that they could be completely forgiven and clean, and I do not hold the sins against them or judge them. I simply have always wanted to marry a woman who is sexually pure. I loved the Lord even during my trying high school years enough to not walk down those promiscuous roads. There are plenty of great young women in the church who do the exact same thing. If a woman were to approach me and reveal her past like that, I would tell her that if she has repented sincerely that the Lord will not punish her. But I would emphasize that my reason for leaving is not out of anger but out of a loyalty to the sexually pure wife and future I have prepared for since I was a deacon first learning about the Law of Chastity. My father and grandfather both have told me they cannot argue with this desire, and have even applauded me for it. But they also told me that her sexual past should not be that big of a deal to me and that other factors such as her current commitment to the gospel are much more important. Maybe more years will bring me this elevated vision and healthier understanding. For now I still just worry and lament over this spiritual place I am in. I understand that she has fully repented. Is it unfair of me to leave? I think she deserves someone who will see her for the beautiful daughter of God that she is and not worry about her past. What steps do I take next? Is it out of line to ask her the exact details so I know the full picture as well as she can recall? I still really like her and want to continue our relationship, I still feel like we belong together. But is it fair to either of us? Am I wrong to think I deserve someone more sexually pure? Please help me. If you feel comfortable sharing your experiences by all means, please do.