Sweety D

Unfortunately Bishops don't have the ability to prevent people from speaking, until after they have spoken the words that are questionable. I can't very well ask each person "what will you say?" before they speak. Nor would I ever want that done to me. It's one of every Bishops worst nightmares, to have to tell someone to not say certain things during testimony meeting. The spirit is heavily relied on for this. I for one would never interrupt someone for saying anything about caffeine over the pulpit, even though I disagree with it being said. Nor would I discuss it with them after the meeting. There is potential for this to cause more harm than good. Especially because I realize it came from a good place, but that doesn't mean the comments didn't offend someone else. However, if this became a reoccurring theme for someone, to discuss caffeine (for example) over and over again, I would probably find a kind and light hearted way to hint towards not doing that. I'm sure we all saw the video of the young girl that was "coming out" as a lesbian in sacrament meeting. The Bishop intervened. This Bishop had no way to control what was being said before she said it. Tough situation for sure. On one hand the girl is pouring her heart out (even if you disagree with her position which I bet most people on the forum do), and on the other hand the Bishop is instructed to not let this sort of thing happen. But it can only be dealt with AFTER the words are spoken.

I appreciate your thoughts and honestly on this. And I must admit the last line made me laugh. I guess my point was these are all trivial things. The examples I gave in the first post was just to show that people judge others on things that are trivial. Coke, may be the most trivial of them all. Especially because in Aug 2012 the church released an official statement about caffeine, saying it's' not in the WoW. These small things people argue over and pass judgment over are so small in the grand scheme of things. And to add to my point, I was trying to explain they are not evens sins.

In years past it was half the time. I used to travel a lot. Now, it's not as much.

I agree with you on It would be more productive to say. You are correct. I worded things very strongly. I still stand by my statements, but they could have been softer. Just hard to see people jeopardize their eternal salvation on such trivial things like being judging on drinking Coke. Obviously people that take such serious offence to such a small thing have their own problems, but over time it wears them down and they leave.

Unfortunately this is true, at least in my Ward and Stake. As a Bishop, I am the one that speaks to these people about leaving the church. So I can tell you with assuredness, this is what's happening. It's mostly adults, not "spoiled millennials" as you say.

I don't expect the church to change. I HOPE we (the people) will do a better job of not judging people to the point of no return. Literally.

Didn't say it was the biggest problem in the church. Context was 'reasons' for leaving the church. And yes, in my ward, it's the biggest reason, which is a problem.

Yes, we agree 100%. This is why we should pray often!

Ending the R-rated discussion. To each his own. Taking a snippet from your message to respond to, then need to get some work done. People being judged is by far the biggest problem. I am a current Bishop of a family ward, few know better than I do about how big of a problem this is. This is the number one topic I discuss with people multiple times a week. I'm telling you, people are leaving the church because of this.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2001/04/you-can-t-pet-a-rattlesnake?lang=eng This is about his school aged granddaughter. Youth. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2001/04/priesthood-power?lang=eng Context is pornography, if the R-rated movie is pornograpgic, yep we should avoid it. This has been made very clear by the Brethren. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/10/touch-not-the-evil-gift-nor-the-unclean-thing?lang=eng In this talk he says "Our standards should not be dictated by the rating system." he also counsels about being careful with PG-13 movies. Is that doctrine now? No PG-13 movies? Should we keep playing this game? I realize I'm coming off as extremely defensive here. But it's because we need to stop forcing our standards that we have set on ourselves, to others. People are leaving the church because of this culture I see around us. And it's sad to me.

I gave you 2 already. Multiply and replenish the earth. Financially supporting a family. Both commandments for adults only.

Terrible investigative work. Finding a "hit" is different than actually reading the article and understanding the context. Fortunately for me I have read many of these in the past and can tell you my point still stands. I won't waste time on all of them, but i'll show you 1 This one here you referenced: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1996/10/the-savior-is-counting-on-you?lang=eng Did you read it? No? The counsel is directed at for the youth. But either way, i'm not saying it's good to watch these movies. I have said it many times. Stop judging, and please stop making up doctrine and telling people what they should and should not do.

Yes many times, on many subjects. And I always wrestle with what to do as a follow up in this situations.

But that's why we have specific doctrine on those other points for adults. Some doctrine and some counsel is different for adults. This is such an obvious fact.

Good point! I forgot about them. LOL!

I think you missed the joke completely. D&C is certainly doctrine, thus the name of the book. If you are not famialir with section 139, I urge you to look it up ... https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc?lang=eng

I have never missed General Conference in my adult life. Please, show me the talk on R-rated movies. Other than the single time I pointed this out, you can't. And this one time was clearly directed to the youth. Pres Benson was very clear about that.

You have some interesting opinions. But they are just that, opinions. Nothing you mentioned is factual or doctrinal. Yet again back to making thing up. The only place you will find your opinion written is in Doctrine and Covenants section 139. Concerning soda, the sugar in Coke is far worse for your health than caffeine. This is well documented. In fact sugar is more addictive than cocaine, again well documented facts. Do you drink Sprite or sugary fake orange juice? Dare I judge you for this terrible health choice? Of course not. I don't drink caffeine (or any soda), but not because a poorly created subculture has decided to write D&C 139 and define it as a sin.Maybe we should stop defining what we think standards for others should be.

Someone once told me we don't graduate from childhood standards. But we do. Children should not be sexually active. Children should not support families financially... I could go on. Children are different than adults in maturity, responsibility, development and accountability. This is not my problem, the problem is (as I have said many times). My point is 2 fold, we judge to often and make up our own doctrine (or counsel). People should not be talking about caffeine as a sin (because it's not) in over the pulpit in sacrament meeting.

Following the counsel of the "Brethren" is always a good idea. First thing to understand though, avoiding R-rated movies is not their counsel. As I mentioned it was only ever mentioned to the Youth, very clearly. Never once has the church made any other statement out R-rated movies. Getting a tattoo has been much more clearly defined as something we should not do. https://www.lds.org/topics/tattooing?lang=eng You seem to think I am advocated for picking and choosing what doctrine (or counsel) to follow. It's quite the opposite. My point is 2 fold, we judge to often and make up our own doctrine (or counsel).

Jane_Doe, funny that it's your name. To be clear I don't feel judged at all. This post is about the many people that tell me they feel this way. I reside in CA, but work has me travel a lot (unfortunately I have to be gone on Sundays a lot). So I attend church in Utah and Arizona (and all over the world) a lot (nearly half my time in years past.). To me, this seems to be a theme in the Western US. I don't see this as a huge issue in most foreign countries.

Bishop

I'm married, have kids, hold a current temple recommend, held and hold callings in leadership .. the typical LDS person I suppose. However, I have one major problem with our community (not our faith). I hate our culture! Not all of it, I say that mostly for the shock and awe factor. Let me explain. We have counsel on Word of Wisdom, modesty, R-rated movies, monthly temple attendance, all great counsel. But we need to stop citing things as Thus saith the Lord. We have created this culture that has some people actually believing Mormons shouldn't or can't watch an R-rated movies or drink caffeine or wear a 2 piece bathing suit. All of which is nonsense. There is nothing doctrinal about any of these things (and many more I haven't mentioned). I am not suggesting it's bad advice to adhere to these ideas. But that's all they are, advice. In 1986 at the Priesthood session of General Conference Ezra Taft Benson gave the talk now called "To the Youth of the Noble Birthright". He specifically says "Tonight I would like to speak directly to you young men of the Aaronic Priesthood" he goes on to say he's grateful the fathers are there. But clearly says he's speaking to the Aaronic Priesthood. It's in this talk that he counsels young men to not watch R-rated movies. Even if you take this as doctrine, it's counsel for the YM. Therefore, it's not going to prevent anyone from getting a temple recommend. It's well known (and often discussed on this site) you are not asked about this during temple recommend interviews. To add to this, YM are not even asked about this during their limited use temple recommend interviews. In 1965 the For the Strength of Youth was written and specifically talked about Young Women not wearing bikinis. Today's it's not so clear. Either way this is great counsel for YW. And if adults want to follow this counsel, great! But there is nothing doctrinal about it, concerning adults. Of course, setting examples are important. I'm not arguing that. These 2 examples I discussed are for youth. Adults don't need to be governed so tightly that we have doctrine on such trivial aspects of our life. Families or couples/people that don't attend ward functions/parties are sometimes considered active but not fully invested or engaged. I have known couples that are antisocial and never attend things like ward Christmas parties or weddings of people they've known for years. Or maybe they don't volunteer to drive kids to girls/scout camp. Or they don't help with "name a LDS event". Often they are looked at just slightly different. People will say, "I'm not sure if they have a strong testimony." And "I saw Sister Jane Doe on Facebook, she and her husband went to Hawaii and she wore a bikini." As if that's a sin! We have created a culture that expects obedience to made up ideas. I didn't even get into monthly temple attendance or caffeine, but that's obvious. And for what it's worth, I don't drink caffeine. But I choose not to because of health reasons. Not because some ridiculous culture suggests I shouldn't. I wish we all would stop these shameful judgements that are passed on others especially when they are doctrinally incorrect. This post isn't because I feel judged or feel confused or bad about any situation. It's because I see others deeply affected by this culture that exists within our faith. It needs to stop. Pay your tithing, go to the temple when you can, do your home/visiting teaching and fulfill your calling as best as you can. Obey the commandments and love your family and neighbors. Everything else is just noise. Even if you aren't judging others on some of these examples I have mentioned, but you are talking about them as doctrine, you are causing a problem. Stop it

I've been reading these forums for years, but never posted until now. I come here often to read some the interesting doctrinal discussions/debates. I find them interesting and occasionally learn something. Glad to be here.