brlenox

Well, I will have to inquire as to those specifics. He has commented on the challenge of the dialectic variability. Of my four sons, he was the only one to get the same mind as I have and while it does not show on IQ tests he is actually more intelligent than myself...his memory is incredible. Tragically with the benefits of exceptional intelligence he also garnered the downside as well - social awkwardness, easily distracted, lack of common sense, indecisiveness etc. Nonetheless, his talents make learning language skills much easier than for most.

Well I can still do conversational Thai from my mission. My son served in the Tacloban Filipino mission.

Ah Vort...no offense in return but there has not been one mention of signs of the times in anything I have posted. In fact nothing you mention comes to mind as being related to this thread at all. I kind of derailed the thread into a discussion of justice and the atonement. If you go down to my second post on this link: https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/63272-damnation/?page=2 That is about where the important parts of the discussion begin becoming increasingly more specific and interesting as your read on. If you are one who can tolerate a dense post lengthy with myriad supporting quotes from apostles and prophets to prevent exactly what you are accusing this thread of being - speculative, then please read as many as you can bear of my primary posts and I assure you you will reconsider your observations. As it is I am thinking you only got a couple of posts down on the first page and may have missed the transition to the more quality material.

Ah, my good man. Let us leave off this witty repartee. I have no grief with your demeanor. Let's get back to the important things at hand. If you wish to encapsulate any questions you felt my material failed to answer for you then please feel free to ask. Or if you have some material of worth to consider to the contrary I welcome that as well. Please let us speak of things that matter.

You are absolutely correct and I said essentially the same thing to him when I mentioned I had taken a tour of the forum to get a perception of his demeanor and found: Plus you are manifesting a bit of a familiarity bias. Read his second post to me and then you'll see that the waters stream downhill from there. As Far as taking offense, I have no clue where that is coming from. Because of my stoical nature I tend to say exactly what I think simply because I would not be offended and generally cannot be offended. However generally if anyone is going to be offended it is manifest just the same way that TFP initiated his response to me.

from Wiktionary Noun. special snowflake syndrome (uncountable) (derogatory) The conviction that one (or often, one's child) is, in some way, special and should therefore be treated differently from others. special snowflake syndrome - Wiktionary https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/special_snowflake_syndrom I'll agree with you that that definition is not exactly what I intended. I guess I should have stopped at easily offended. Nonetheless, I think the challenge is you will justify implication as you read it the same as if they actually said what you are claiming and in my case that is absolutely incorrect. I have said exactly what I meant and non of your "implications" are fair or correct. But hey, at least you were right about the definition of a snowflake.

I'm just a little beyond middle aged fat guy who is seldom accused of doing anything fast anymore. So what is your native language.

Uh Oh ... an edit has appeared. You might take a look at my responses to his questions and perhaps I am wrong but I thought I did as good a job as I am capable of in responding to his questions. Perhaps you might educate me as to where I failed.

Well, nothing speaks more of a man that what others will say in his behalf. Very Good.

I appreciate your summary here. For me it falls under the category of studying it out in your mind, gathering all of the information and formulating a response to that information and then seeking the spirit to guide as to the validity of the information. In essence it is what God expects of us before he will provide insight. It makes you honestly somewhat unusual in my experience for most forum participants and I for one certainly appreciate that. As well in your final sentence you state you have new thoughts and perspectives - as they take form and you can articulate them I am exceedingly interested in what they may be as I am ever seeking to understand more of the Gospel and as Elder Packer Indicates in the quote following it is only when we can tie our understandings to the atonement that we really understand the gospel. I have found this to be remarkably correct doctrine from Elder Packer, and many of the most precious understandings I have had have been when they opened up to reveal these connecting ties to the atonement. If you feel ever inclined to share that would be fabulous.

The Old Testament is first and foremost scripture and it is extremely profitable for study but it takes a person who can think in terms of symbols and such to see a great deal of the best material.

Some of your answers are spot on and I hope the further expansion adds to them some clarity and scriptural sustainment for the conclusions. Thank you for taking the time to think this through. I know it takes a lot of mental work and effort to slowly parse and ponder for it to make sense. There are many many more things that extend out from here but for now we can break at this concept of mercy and justice.

Adam

You were the reason I went ahead and posted the Avenger of Blood material. You appear thoughtful and patient as you weave your way through what I realize is not an easy read. Thank you for your support.

The Folk Prophet, I'm kind of at a loss...I responded to your first questions here: https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/63272-damnation/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-941141 You'll note that I do a fair job of trying to politely give attention to your questions. However, did you acknowledge this effort. If so, I missed it. However, my internal analysis of your questions actually caused me to question whether you were serious or not. I gave good response and they should have eliminated your position. I mean when you asked I thought really? God just makes up silly reasons that do not equate to a rational expectation and that works for you. Eat Green Jello and you'll die. Wait, are those fingernail clippings in the sink - die you uncouth hillbilly. I candidly thought perhaps you and I see God differently. I gave you easy and clear indications where there is a correlation and you ignored them. My question to you is do you still believe what I quoted you as saying above? Is your God a fickle God? Now this question here...I have stated twice by now that I am addressing the point of the fall in a Chronological fashion. I have provided scriptures which talk about mankind being cast off. That is a very common reference point concerning the fall. If you want to hear, based on an analysis of the verses I am using I would suspect that no matter how poor my communication skills are the verse that states that mankind was cast off would not generate the question you are asking. The verse states that they were physically condemned to die and that they were spiritually dead. That's all. The point is there is more than adequate quality of presentation that if you wanted you could very easily understand my perspective but you do not try to do that. You want to create opposition. I am sure you know the gospel points I am referencing concerning this place in the fall narrative. It is well represented in scripture and you want me to defend it? That is the current place in the chronology that we are discussing. We are not discussing the atonement yet which ameliorates the conditions of the fall, we are simply discussing the conditions of the fall. We are trying to use scripture to establish the conditions that man found himself in after the fall. And your response to me is that "you're still equating a mortal death penalty to eternal death,". I am left to wonder why are you opposing the clear statements of scripture as if I can't read and to take them for what they say is not how one should accept scripture. Finally I reestablish how I am addressing this entire subject as my final paragraph of the post. I am cordial and pleasant if not matter of fact. My point is that while I am new to this forum, I am not without sufficient presentation skills to be taken seriously. In your answers you have generally tossed out opinions without any effort to provide insight from legitimate sources that would compel me to consider your points of view, while I err on the completely other side of the process of overwhelming with resources in hopes that I can overcome the nature tendency that many have to ignore sound reasoning and just stay with their own limited insight. I'm doing all the heavy lifting here and you want to be taken seriously for a few moments of critique? After your last couple of posts, I took a little tour around the forum and I see that actually I am not being treated any differently than anyone else in your engagements. You do not evince a spirit of conciliatory tone but seem more confrontive to combative just as a natural manner of interaction. Had I realized I probably would have withheld engaging you in conversation at all as that attitude can seldom learn anything from anybody. I am trying to engage you and be polite in doing so, but I candidly state with confidence that I understand this subject in ways you will never grasp unless you are willing to drop the John Wayne and just be a decent guy. For now though that appears not probable especially since I am probably just too frank for your tastes. There is no offense intended - just a honest effort at trying to split a hemlock knot with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle.

First let's be realistic, to really understand anything in the Gospel it has to be taught by the Spirit. My efforts here cannot circumvent that process. Even were I to double, no wait even triple the length of my posts ... ah heck why not...even if I was to quadruple the length of my posts it would not be sensible to believe that you could just read on through them and pick up what has taken literally years of effort. What you are considering a slight or offense is simply Alma 12:9 in action I am simply referencing a correct and true principle. Now maybe I should pay greater attention to the "not impart" but I think that I make extreme efforts to only utilize material that is perfectly available to you and me and anyone else that wants to put the effort into putting it all together. I claim no mystical interpretations, no angelic ministrants...just a lot of effort and pondering etc. In case it is not obvious, I am analytical to a fault. In your responses, you have hedged with doubt, rebutted in ways that made it clear that certain things were not being understood and that is perfectly okay. If instead, it makes it any easier to deal with my personality, I am at all times attempting to be cordial and encouraging but I also tend to be very candid - I suffer from the social ineptitudes common to certain characteristics that I have but I do not intend to ever offend and hope you will understand that to be the case. Now as to your financial ineptitudes, let's see how I can a slap you around with that....I guess to say that I probably cannot claim any better....Ha ha ha...well be of good cheer ol' boy.

This may correlate with the end of the millennial reign when the final Day of Judgment is completed and the terrestrial state of this world ends as it becomes the celestial world of promise.

coming to a door knob near you...

Avenger of Blood scenario in the Old Testament.

You are absolutely correct - Justice does help us, as well it condemns us. We are trying to explore the nuances that define this relationship. When you state this "His mercy IS justice." If you can define in detail, which is to say how the various laws interact to ensure justice is served and mercy does not rob justice then this paradigm shift will be far simpler I think. Frankly, it is the precise point. But why?

Well, kind of and not quite. Justice did put us here and independent of anything altering the decree of God the Father we are dead. However before mercy can even be brought to bear on the equation Christ has to die. We can get more specific later, but something about what he does open the doors of mercy but we are not quite here yet in the narrative of how all of this fits together. If you don't mind I'd like to not get too far ahead as each piece of this paradigm shift has to be explored carefully. However, your last sentence above is precisely correct. We just need to see how mercy is activated first before we can get to that point.

We can add the Old Testament material on the Avenger of Blood if that is acceptable.