zlarry123

Good stuff concerning your question on this site https://creation.com/pre-adamic-man-were-there-human-beings-on-earth-before-adam

You may have missed a post I presented at one time Traveler, that the only peace that counts is with God through Christ, Romans 5:1 who inaugurated the covenant we are suppose to live under by grace. And it is through that grace of God which will produce those qualities in the heart, void of regulation, that Apostle Paul speaks of. Regulation that bring about a crises of conscience and division. Isn't this what this post is about. Unless one claims they have a righteousness, which he considered a loss, of their own. Wouldn't you say! Shouldn't we remember it is not how man views us but God. Without a play on words to avoid the simple truths from the bible. "If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." James

I'll give it a shot! It seem to me how inconsequential all of this is when compared to the words of Apostle Paul,, "Fix your thoughts on what is true and good and good things in others. Think about all you can praise God for and be glad about. Keep putting into practice all you learned from me and saw me doing, and the God of peace will be with you." Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged. It is never glad about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Larry

The rule of Romans 14 is a universal application. In all cases, if a man does a thing which he does not "believe" to be right, it is a sin, and his conscience will condemn him for it. The point of the object should always be to promote peace, and to build him, the weak one, in the holy faith. If a man doesn't have peace in his heart, he cannot be happy inwardly, perhaps he can look outwardly in high spirits, since no man can have peace who sins against his own conscience. And that one's peace should always be peace with God through Christ. Romans 5:1 Larry

I believe the problem may be adding many layer and meaning to the simple truths. Specifically in the New Testament, when we use double meaning and shadows of things as was used in the Old Testament. This has cause scriptural misinterpretation. One sort is what I describe as the News Paper Gospel. Christians read New Paper events and find a scripture to match it. Especially when it comes to the second advent, and the kingdom of God. Now we have the internet, and TV to add to the confusion. It reminds me of the words of Jesus to the Pharisees that these happening do not come with observation. And by using surveillance I think alters the nature of the Kingdom of God. Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. KJV Just my thoughts Larry

Greetings Before Max King's book mentioned in the attention-grabbing audio in the New Topic by Wenglund, "Creation and Garden Story: Instructional Value?" was another author James Stuart Russell 1878 who penned "THE PAROUSIA" on the same subject matter. These books changed the way many Christian in our day view the New Testament, including myself. The author of "The Parousia" is no relationship to Charles Taze Russell the founder of the Jehovah Witnesses. The books, The books on the subject matter places most if not all prophecy fulfilled in the first century, completely opposite to the popular futuristic theology we hear about today. Many futurist and partial preterist deem the full preterist view as heretic, mainly because it leaves out a future second coming of Christ. Which even the Mormons believe is a futuristic concept of His coming. Because according to the full preterist view the second coming happened in the first century of the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Roman armies Jesus mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. The Parousia is on line to read if anyone cares to do so. http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1878_russell_parousia.html Regards, Larry

Wade Good stuff Thanks for those links, it set me on a ride through the Mormon community. Intelligence and Matter existed before the Genesis creation story. God did not create the universe in that account, but reorganize/rearranged it. First estate! (Abr. 3:26). D&C 93:29 Moses 3:5, 9). (Jer. 1:5 To provide a place for his heavenly children to make choices in a physical environment/body i.e. mortal probation. Moses 1:34) https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/the-three-rs-of-choice?lang=eng The choices made not first-rate, terrestrial and telestial, contained in a biological body reside in a spiritual detention center. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/the-three-rs-of-choice?lang=eng In time subsequently they will be preached to by the faithful who attained the celestial level. Making it possible through a sort of second chance Gospel. A failed test relocates them to the lowest glory. Hell! BTW I don't believe in a literal flaming hell fire doctrine Surely this lead to more question and answers, and is filling my purpose to understand the Mormons believe system. Perhaps you can provide a deeper look into what I have provided here. Or if this is so far on the right track. Thanks Larry

You may like this link, Beyond Creation Science, it will answer those questions I copied and pasted from. http://beyondcreationscience.com/ Larry

Does the biblical "beginning" match the biblical "end"? When did God introduce the old covenant order? Could Genesis creation speak about the beginning of the covenant world of God's relationship to his people rather than the beginning of the physical universe? Why would the Bible open with an account of the creation of the physical universe and then change subjects completely to close with prophecy of a covenant end? Larry

Rhoades As I understand marriage is a very solemn contract to produce a large posterity. It is a blessing in the plan of God, because the angel's residing in heaven will find a place to live in. So the marriage produced millions of Jews to give more angel's a place to dwell. And by the symbolic prediction of the branches crossing water, is in reference to confirm Joseph Smith as true prophet by reading the Book of Mormons. Since before the 18th century when the book was written there were far and few-between Jewish converts like myself. And those branches that were by the water and went over the wall include descendants that went across the ocean to the Americas. Interestingly the Apostle Paul who coined the phrase wall, uses the same terminology, the wall, where he is referring to the Mosaic Law that separated the Jews from Gentiles. Brought about by the crucifixion. Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; KJV There was also a wall surrounding the Jewish temple that separated them from the Gentiles. Seem to me the incoming of the Gentile in the first century is what Jesus had in mind when speaking of the other sheep, the two becoming one. And that according to the Gospel what happened by the words of the Son of God. Also following Christ death and resurrection, he visited the Americas to establish a church among the "Nephites." I took a cursory look once again at 3 Nephi 15–17 I want to see if this is clear first before going into the reference you posted on Ezekial 37:16-19 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/ezek/37.16-19#p14 Thanks for your patience Larry

Not at this time! From the way I see it...... who we are in the eyes of God lives on in a resurrected spiritual body form only after death. However in the case of Jesus who was not an angel, lived in the form/nature of God but was not the only true God/Father. Philippians 2:5-6 John 17:3 Hebrews 1:5 From the Mormon perspective the inward man is a separate entity, person, living inside us. Or we are just angel's living in a fleshly body?That personage at one time, before time began, was an angel sent to live according to God's purpose in a physically created body one earth. Adam and Eve and their offspring. From what I understand to make choices, and by the options they would find themselves in different abodes/mansions after death. Some in the presents of God, other in between, and others far off. i.e a hellish prison. Does this suggest for the remote on living on earth forever. Can you fill in some details .... post following, together with D&C references. Thanks Larry

ghost ekpneo NT:1606 ekpneo (ek-pneh'-o); from NT:1537 and NT:4154; to expire: Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Literally to die The correct translation Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last. NKJV Mark 15:37" Jesus breathed his last". NIV Mark 15:37 "breathed His last" NASU Is this true or a mock on the Mormon church "Mormons also teach that both the Father and the Son are men with bodies of flesh and bone (Doctrine & Covenants 132:20; Articles of Faith, p 38); as two separate people, the Father and the Son cannot be considered “one" "Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them." This is a new one on me, can you fill me in. It seem like the mainstream Christianity trinity taking on a different form. The doctrine of the trinity came about much earlier then the 18th century, and Christian ran with it. "Mormons today believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three separate persons who together constitute “the Godhead”. This concept of God cannot be found in the first edition of the Book of Mormon, however. The idea of God in the Book of Mormon closely resembles the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity." This concept of God cannot be found in the first edition of the Book of Mormon, Why is that?

Traveler Let's do it! There is no question every bible has it flaws, produced by bias authors. However I see the Gospel intact prior to the 18th century to learn about the Nature of Christ and our Heavenly Father. The bible has brought millions to the hope of salvation through Christ. Where in the scripture are those incompatibilities. And are those believers before the 18th century dead ducks in the eye of God with the extended knowledge. Did Joseph Smith have that knowledge and hope prior to His finding from the KJV. And why was he looking for the right church if he had it. Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, THE KINGDOM OF GOD COMETH NOT WITH OBSERVATION

Matthew 16:27,28 Matthew 26:63 I understand The coming of Christ in power, with authority, and the kingdom of God established in AD 70. Furthermore it was verification to the Jewish community that Jesus was in truth and deed the Son of God. As you mentioned over a million Jews gathered for the occasion in AD 70 from all over, sadly they were entombed by the surrounding Roman troops. Leading the people to starvation and disease. Those poor souls who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Luke 21:22,23 Why is this stuff so important, it's imperative to listen with awareness to our Lord's words. The bible gives reason why! Luke 23:27,28

About the Abomination of desolation By George A. Horton, Jr. “Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.” (Matt. 24:15–18.) Of the abomination of desolation to which Jesus referred, Daniel wrote, “They shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.” (Dan. 11:31.) The abomination had happened in 170 B.C. when the Syrian king Antiochus IV ordered a massacre in Jerusalem, profaned the altar of the temple, and carried away the temple treasures.2 The horrifying events under Antiochus were familiar to every Jew, and those who heard Jesus’ reference to Daniel vividly understood the Savior’s prophecies. Thanks for posting those linked editorial, the authors did an excellent job of putting it together. Conversely, not dogmatically, I'm not certain if Jesus had in mind Syrian King Antioch the massacre in Jerusalem in 170 BC years later. I think that Part of the state of affairs should stay put in the AD 70 episode. Adam Clarke's (1760 or 1762 - 1832) https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/acc.html [The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel] This abomination of desolation, Luke (Luke 21:20-21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in Daniel 9 and 11; and so let everyone who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbis. The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says (War, b. 6 chap. 6), the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by Mark, Mark 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it. I found it interesting but not bizarre that George A. Horton, Jr. quoted Adam Clark in the article, a long time ago. I learned how commentator feed off each other in their understanding of scripture. I consider no denomination or congregation has a handle on all truth, and we should as students of the bible make sure of all things. There is a book out called The Parousia by James Stuart Russell 1878, not sure if you read it, but it has set in motion for me and many others to understand historical prophecy fulfilled. BTW I'm not abandoning a future coming of Christ as you mentioned. http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1878_russell_parousia.html I will respond to your most interesting post subsequently, it was primarily what I was looking for. Thanks for reading Larry

Hi Zil First it's good to hear from you again, however I don't see that as evidence of the only true church on earth. If I were a Jehovah Witness I would experience the same scenario. Actually the bible tells us to make sure of all things. So following a meeting does the audience go home and do their homework with prayer to do that. I think it would be good to remember our standing with God is going to be on an individual bases, not what congregation or denomination we may belong to. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good NASU My main point is this, the words of salvation, the atonement of Christ, was followed by the Book of Mormons many years later. BTW I have no problem with that! Nevertheless if those first century brother of ours who literally walked with Christ under server persecution and finally death did not pen the NT, there would not be a book of Mormons. And the hope of salvation plan through our savior would be lost, together with this forum. It reminds me of what Jesus said to His disciples on the Mount of Olives. Matthew 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. NKJV If it dosn't bother you what's the big deal, I thought we were suppose to love our neighbor. Did the religious leader do the same with Christ ministry. We should be jumping for joy with the opportunity to preach the word of God. Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. KJV My brother shouldn't we both consider what our Lord said, Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. KJV Regards, Larry

LARRY, YOU'RE WELCOME TO SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS AND BELIEFS HERE, AS IS EVERYONE. BUT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET ANY LDS PERSON TO CHANGE THEIR BELIEFS ON BASED UPON YOUR DISCUSSION HERE. FROM THE LDS PERSPECTIVE: CHRIST SAID THE ANSWER, AND WHAT LARRY SAYS DOESN'T TRUMP WHAT CHRIST SAID (NO OFFENSE). AGAIN, YOU'RE WELCOME TO SHARE YOU BELIEFS, BUT THEY DON'T HOLD ANY CONVINCING POWER FOR AN LDS PERSON. No offence taken Jane, and thanks for the invitation to share my trust on scripture, and find out if the power of God really resides in the Mormon denomination. Hopefully there will be others who love the WORD and defend its perspective. I'm curious if you speak for all members here or did you figure it out for yourself that "WHAT LARRY SAYS DOESN'T TRUMP WHAT CHRIST SAID" (NO OFFENSE). I believe you inescapable intended to say, it's not what Christ said, but what He meant when He said it in the context, power, and spirit of inspiration by our heaven Father the only true God. John 17:3 Would you agree?

Why do Mormons think the other sheep are not Gentiles, but a group of Israelites (using scripture, text, or arguments Yes isn't it lovely! Because Mormons see the Book of Mormons and D&C, and the president of the Mormon church no different then those who walked with Christ as inspired by God, and contain that information. Information I'm sure you will provide instead of one sentence comments. Because the framework of Matthew is not completely interconnected with the destruction of the temple, and that the coming of Christ mentioned in Matthew 24:3 is in our future as does main stream Christianity believe. And the word "world", the same in the KJV Joseph Smith read, and why he came to those conclusion, is not translated as "age" which it should be. The Mormons are not aware I believe with the time indicators speaking of same in the NT. My thoughts! As I understand it the Mormon's place double meaning, shadows, on text as was used in the OT revealed in the NT. I will leave it up to you to give your take that a baby can understand as to the Mormon view on our verses. So I can see how the Book of Mormons is entwined with the bible as I heard mentioned. Following will be the scriptural evidence you asked for subsequent to your posting, unless you want to change the stream of conversation. Do not take this as an attack on the Mormon church, we both believe on the atonement of Christ which makes us brothers. Your up ..... thanks for reading Larry

I'm starting to get the general idea of the Mormon view, both here and in my home since I'm currently studying with missionaries in my Mobil abode in the desert of California. This is the reason I entered this forum. There was no big deal intended on my comment in my last post. It was good to see some of your brothers and sister coming to your defense. Note I said Ha ha! To lighten the load! When the missionaries come over the house I have my computer linked to the Book of Mormons, D&C and of course many bible translation. I'm only a student of God's word, a servant. As of now I don't see any group as specially the chosen of God, since there are some 46000 denomination believing the same. I see it as an individual bases in an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ the only begotten Son and His dad. Where ever they are, only God know. Hopefully in the future once I get a grip on the Mormon doctrine we could have a enhanced exchange. I'm not looking for socializing at the time, thought I feel there is nothing wrong with it. My focus is on the Word of God, and how it relates to other people, and how they respond to scripture. I know the Mormons believe we at one time were angel's who have come to earth to make choices on what level in heaven we will eventually enter. 1 Cor,.15 Many mansions, and Paul entering the third heaven to conclude there are 3 different levels. The other sheep are not Gentile, but a group of Israelite's I think from Babylon who entered the America's Perhaps we can share our views on Matthew 24 in a civil way. Bottom line is that we was both understand what the other believes. Fair enough? Regards, Larry

Question And, how do you account for these biblical passages: I believe since the word "spirit of all flesh" is used it's suggesting we were once angel's in another life prior to the tent we now live in. However I think the word spirit in its original form will not account for it. God of the spirits of all flesh, Num. 16:22 Numbers 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation? KJV SPIRIT IN THE VERSE AND IT'S MEANING ACCORDING TO HEBREW AND GREEK Spirit OT:7307 ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): KJV - air, anger, blast, breath, cool, courage, mind, quarter, side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y). New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary.

Ha Ha Sorry those scripture you irritation you! I'm absolutely trying to appreciate the Mormons point of view on the word of God, perhaps you can defend it when considering those various scripture you rather mock then give an answer of the hope within if you care to do so. Job 17:2 Are there not mockers with me? and doth not mine eye continue in their provocation? KJV 1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: "Be willing to state those reasons on all proper occasions. No man ought to entertain opinions for which a good reason cannot be given; and every man ought to be willing to state the grounds of his hope on all proper occasions. A Christian should have such intelligent views of the truth of his religion, and such constant evidence in his own heart and life that he is a child of God, as to be able at any time to satisfy a candid inquirer that the Bible is a revelation from heaven, and that it is proper for him to cherish the hope of salvation". Barnes' Your thoughts! Regards, Larry

This is also true according to mainstream Christianity because of the expressing last days. The dilemma is the the expression ends as history in the New Testament, since it was the last days of the Mosaic Economy. In Jesus contemporaries first century generation, not a future age group afar from ours. Hebrews 1::1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 HATH IN THESE LAST DAYS SPOKEN unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; KJV The author of Hebrews used the expression "these last days" that was over 2 thousand years ago fulfilled. The context in Acts illustrate Peter providing verification they were living in the last day according to the prophet Joel. Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel ; 17 And it shall come to pass in the LAST DAYS, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: KJV Since the last days mention is in connection with the kingdom of God and the coming of Christ, it has caused a no show by today's evangelist who predicted it. And has taken out the integrity of scriptures by giving the none believer ammunition to shoot back at us. Regards, Larry

The main point we know each others belief to some extent before posting, Thanks for reorganization you point for clarity in reference to mine. Good stuff, great questions, thanks for asking, 1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: KJV Question A ...WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOUR PERSONAL SELF-AWARENESS, INTELLECT, CREATIVITY, PERSONALITY AND TEMPERAMENT? Question B....WHAT BECOMES OF THE SPIRIT-IMPARTED ASPECTS OF THE HUMAN MIND UPON DEATH? C .......If it lives on, then does it live on in bodily form (i.e. as a spirit personage), or otherwise? 1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. NIV 2 Corinthians 5 (CEV) Our bodies are like tents that we live in here on earth. But when these tents are destroyed, we know that God will give each of us a place to live. These homes will not be buildings that someone has made, but they are in heaven and will last forever. 2 While we are here on earth, we sigh because WE WANT TO LIVE IN THAT HEAVENLY HOME. 3 We want to put it on like clothes and not be naked. (CEV) 1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body , it is raised a spiritual body . There is a NATURAL BODY , and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY .NKJV WHAT IS THE "SOUL Numbers 31:28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one SOUL of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: KJV 1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh : but there is one kind of FLESH OF MEN, another FLESH OF BEASTS, another of fishes, and another of birds. KJV Question .... WHAT IS IT OF EACH US THAT WILL BE JUDGED AND WILL RESIDE IN EITHER HEAVEN OR HELL? A.....Who we are in the eyes if God! B......BTW I don't view the word hell as mainstream Christianity. Your thoughts Regards, Larry

WHEN WILL THESE THINGS BE I don' t accept as true the disciples asking numerous question regarding different moments in time. I believe the inquire was interconnected to a single happening, the annihilation of the holy Jewish place of worship i.e..the Temple in AD 70. I don't feel Jesus had in mind stuff that was going to come to pass, by dual meanings, thousands of years later in Matthew 24:3. The disciples were asking question about their concerns in their life. And Jesus gave them a response with signs and warning prior to that catastrophic episode consummating with, Luke 21:20 The Destruction of Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15-28; Mark 13:14-23) "But WHEN YOU SEE Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. NKJV To get out of town mainly for their safety, and so the Gospel Message can go forward to our salvation that they have put into words. The New Testament scriptures, our hope, about the Son of God The scriptures I supplied about his imminent coming in their lifetime was clear I think in the last post you asked about.. The sacking of the temple brought about with no question in the Jewish mindset at that time the end of the age, Mosaic Policy I.e. the OC. The focus was "When will these things be" Jesus made it clear in their lifetime. Matthew 24:33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near — AT THE DOORS! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, THIS GENERATION will by no means pass away till all these things take place. NKJV This generation was cleanly the generation of Jesus contemporary generation. The chapter is loaded with pronouns. and time text of audience relevance. I do consider at this time from my understanding it all happened in the first century. It was the establishment of the kingdom of God coming to power, since His coming is related to the kingdom of God mentioned in the NT. Interested in your thoughts Regards, Larry

Hi Rhoahes The disciple didn't have to figure it out concerning His imminent coming since He said, . "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23) . "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23) "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27) "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)