Nissan

We should stand on principle. If we want to get into a discussion of right way vs wrong way of how to handle something we will spend more time bickering about that then spending time standing for principle. No wonder growth rates for the church are in the tank and decelerating every year. Internal dissent doesn't help people join an organization.

The problem with this is silence from members who know it is going on is acquiecense. If I'm a non-member and I see this and there is no pushback from members, I will simply assume the religion and there members agree with it. Things done privately don't need to be broadcast publicly. But actions broadcast publicly require public discussion or it amounts to acceptance of it.

I agree, I think to many people sunscibe waaaaay to many actions, thoughts, desires directly to the Q15. Really the only thing you can actually subscribe to them directly is anything they directly say or directly sign. Otherwise..... Who knows where it came from or whether it bares their stamp of approval. Orthodox members subscribe waaaay to much dictitorial or micromanaging control to the Q15. There is much more latitude from the top than most people realize.

Follow the leader.... Even if the leader is corrupt and wicked. I don't think that is how it's supposed to go.....

So I have no responsibility as a member? I have no responsibility to raised my hand in opposition when a leader starts teaching false doctrine? Then why ask for a sustaining vote? So you can use it as a weapon to determine if I follow lockstep, regardless of whether I actually do-i just need to proclaim I follow? There is a scripture that comes to mind about lips saying one thing and the heart saying another....

So it matters not what is taught as long as I simply say "I follow the leader". The stake president could start preaching from the pulpit we are all aliens and I should just be expected to obey and sustain....bc if I feign to say no SP you are preaching false doctrine I'm attacking the church. I should just sit down shut up and simply trust that the guy above the SP will correct him.... Except what happens if the GA starts preaching that? I have no ability to say that's not right it doesn't match with any scriptures?

Yes the Lord did provide a way to correct the church... It's called the Body of Christ. What happens when the body of Christ is corrupted and desires that which is wicked?

So you'd rather use the question of whether I raised my hand or not as a weapon.

Which is more important saying a few words and raising a hand or what my heart desires? Does it really matter if I sustained with my hand or not or is it a question with which you can then use as a weapon to discard anything I say? How many people, how many members raise their hands yet their hearts are far from the teachings? The prophets and apostles and scriptures have already spoken many times on this. Unlike many hypocritical members I sustain with all my heart the Doctrine of Christ and His Holy Word. I do not sustain false gods or fake ideologies regardless of who they come from. But that is perfectly fine, continue to think that merely raising your hand and then preaching a false doctrine contrary to God's laws is better than a man who doesn't sustain because he's rather his heart align with his words.

Do we believe in common consent?

This isn't a hand of friendship. This is inviting them into your home, paying them to come into your home and then praising them for being so wonderful. No repentance is going to happen from this. It's cozying up to them. Why? What happens when a child is confused about what they are feeling and needs a steady hand? When you preach homosexuality is a sin and then you invite them into your home when their pictures on their public page are not something I want my kids seeing.... What message are you sending? What we going to now have special musical numbers in sacrament meeting by them too? At what point does my desire and need for a safe space and a refugee from the world overcome the desire to be seen as not hateful? What ever happened to the teaching in my youth to avoid the appearance of evil? What happens when I take my kids to this and they Google the website and see men dressed up as women parading around or men half naked as reindeers for their Christmas program, knowing that just the day before they were dressed in nice suits singing Christ praises at the temple. There is a word that comes to mind and it isn't love.

Good. So the teaching of homosexuality and all things LGBTQ+ is going to have a significant impact on what children believe about themselves in regard to homosexuality, correct. Which means, if one believes homosexuality is a sin-then we should teach children not so associate with it in any form. If one believes it is not a sin, well we should keep doing what we are doing, well actually if we want to confuse people we should continue doing what we are doing until everyone is utterly confounded and have no idea which way to point.

No, you don't see it far more in depth, but far more short-sighted. There is something about raising children (especially more than one) that provides quite a different perspective. You can easily see how much we really are molded. Christ's words are very true when he speaks about us becoming as little children. Little children not in childishness-but in the ability of children to be so easily molded and shaped to His will. Most certainly ever child has a personality (shy, bold, spunky, reserved), but as as their belief system, who they believe they are and what they believe about themselves-it is absolutely molded. You understand at how easy it is to really change their opinions. I've played this game with my kids, multiple times, even as old as 11. Where do you want to go for ice cream? Chick-fil-A or Dairy Queen. Well Dairy Queen has the great wonderful, awesome special for this special ice cream. "Oh dad, let's go to Dairy Queen". But Chick-fil-A has great cookies-and-cream! "Oh dad let's go to Chick-fil-A". I can easily go back and forth multiple times, causing them to change their mind. What that really means is that kids don't really know what to think or how to think and they are carried about by every whim. Kids have to be taught how to think. Because a child doesn't know what to think or how to think, if you decide that you really care about what they think-then you are saying that their thinking supercedes or is more important than your own thinking. If a child learns or is taught that the parent really cares about his thoughts and feelings, then it means that the child will learn to discard anything or everything which is by the parent. They will become egotistical and self-centered as they are taught that what is in their own mind is more important than anyone else's-even the mind of God. It flips on it's head, the God-ordained order. Which is that parents are instructed to train their children, to teach them, to raise them up righteously, which can only be done from someone who is an authority figure in their life. I care that my child learns how to think, not their actual thoughts; b/c as the Good Book states, "foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child".

I don't think, I've ever had someone say that to me on an online format. Thank you-really thank you.

Actually it does have everything to do with the bigger discussion. You just don't see it. . . b/c sadly you don't have children (I wish you did).

Yes, it does have everything to do with it. Why? Because as a parent you realize that if you really cared what your child thinks, you'd give them a candy bar for dinner every night. Caring about what your child thinks and feels is a real quick way to be enslaved to a toddler monster and a 8-year-old tyrant.

Yes they do-all the time. The couch it in different terms, they proclaim with their lips that they won't do that-but their actions absolutely say differently.

Do you have kids? Because yes absolutely parents say that. I doubt a 2-3 year old toddler wants their mother shuttling them off to day-care every day. I bet they would say, "mommy, I want to stay with you all day" . . .but the parent says "I'm going to live my life the way I want to".

With the apostasy policy was declared a revelation from God, massive internal pushback inside the Church occurred and then it was discarded. Correlation isn't causation . . .but at some point-we get the leadership and church we deserve.

There is a reason why homosexual acts are condemned in the Bible. If homosexuality is learned then what else is learned? We are seeing the progression. The progression was first homosexuality was deemed a serious sin, then it was deemed a mental disorder, then it was deemed inborn. First transgenderism was deemed a serious sin, then a mental disorder, now it is being deemed as inborn. So much so that small children are being told from a young age that they are transgender and that they should transition. If a child is able to determine that they are homosexual, they are old enough to determine they are transgender then they are old enough to determine they should have sexual experiences with those who are older. Homosexual acts are condemned because of what it leads to-which is absolutely no moral standard around sexual activity. You claim pedophilia that someone is being forced. Yet we have children as young as 7 who are said to be a different sex. If a child can determine they are not a boy at age 7, then they most certainly have the where-withall to determine they can have sexual experiences. What you are arguing in effect, is that even though homosexuality is learned-it's not a sin.

This is incorrect. It all comes down to a world-view; is it inborn or is it learned behavior. If it is inborn then there is nothing we can do so whatever. If it is learned however . . . .that brings a whole slew of other questions. I believe it is learned-why? Because throughout history and time, different cultures and different societies have had different levels of homosexuality. We see it in our own culture-as homosexuality has gained more acceptance-more people identify as homosexuals.

I disagree. To suggest they supported it, is to believe that they have way, way more control than they do. They are very, very busy; they do things like any good CEO does-put who they believe are competent people in charge of different swim lanes and let them work within that swim lane. Occasionally they might step in-but that is going to be occasionally. We seem to think way more in this Church is directly controlled by the 1stP vs. what is actually controlled by them.

It's not on temple square, it's at the DC Temple Visitor's Center.

I agree that is what is occurring but it is not in line with scripture.

It was most likely someone under the temple president who made this call. If you go to their website you'll find a "book us" link. It costs 500-2500 to book. It's possible they do it for free, Wich would be great charity work for the church, but most likely some tithing money (or at least some church funds) went to pay to have them preform- which is even better. the visitors center is on dedicated Holy Ground know anciently as the outer courtyard of the temple. It's good we are doing this. Some of the pictures at the bottom of their page are certainly interesting.....half-naked men prancing around, not that there is a problem with that. I think it's great anyone who sees the visitor center at Christmas this year will be able to look at their webpage and see how inclusive we are. We are finally getting with the times.