alaskanray

Okay, Snow, you win...you want to be rude and will defend to the death your rudeness so i'll just let you take over the board and you won't have to hear from me again, deal? You obviously have issues far greater than any that I need to worry about. I suggest you discuss your need to slap everyone in the face with your bishop, though, because it does relate to temple recommend interviews...i believe there is a question in there about how you treat your fellowmen? I hope you are happy and I will bother this board no longer. I come here for support and enlightenment not for bad manners and abuse. Remember, Snow, on a public forum you never know who is going to read your nastiness and the wounds you inflict on those you aim at, will often be inflicted on others you did not mean to hit. It's the difference between shooting a dart and throwing a grenade. Frankly, it's a good thing I have a living testimony because if I were an investigator and read your posts, I would probably never want to have anything to do with the church. It's called manners, Snow, and maturity. Christ would never speak to people as you have spoken to the people on this board. Good day and sayonara.

Yeah, I solved that problem, thanks. Before I received my temple covenants, I asked a friend if the garments didn't make it harder to keep cool in the summer. He said that the covenants supercede all that and that he didn't even notice. I have found, for myself, that he was right. If I could, I'd never leave the temple, that's how much I love the Lord and the temple is closer to the the Celetial Kingdom than we can get anywhere else on Earth. To me, it's like coming home for the first time in my life.

What is secret ceremonies and whats BBW? So Im 'unrighteous' or 'unworthy' just because I actually want to feel comfortable? What a SIN!!! I'm bound to hell for daring to request comfort for the 50 odd years i have left to live on this earth, supposedly wearing garments. Someone said if you aren't 'worthy' whatever that actually means, you shouldnt wear them anyway. In my opinion I'm a worthy person in many aspects, but according to the church maybe Im not. What a great church we have telling people how 'unworthy' they are all the time making people feel like failures. So would that mean if I was 'unworthy' there would be no point in wearing them? As far as spiritual dangers goes, what do you mean? The most dangerous thing to my spirituality was the temple itself. I had no problems until I went there. I havent been back since and now my recommend has expired and I dont plan on getting another one. So, really, is there a point wearing garments atall? The only reason I wear them atall (when I do) is because my husband believes in them. Or at least, he's been scared into thinking he'll be punished or something bad will happen to him if he doesnt. So theres really no point atall. xxxxx I knew you would misunderstand my point when I made it so I'm not surprised at all by the backlash. I never said YOU were unrighteous, what I said were your statements were. There is a difference. Your further comments about having let your temple recommend lapse and never wanting to return to the temple proves my point even further. A BBW is a BIG BEAUTIFUL WOMAN (in other words, I'm fat and have a hard time finding comfortable clothes which means garments should be more difficult thing for me than those skinny minis out there with the ultimate bods). Secret Ceremonies is a book written by a woman who eventually left the church because she hated living the laws as given in the temple. One of her chief concerns was the temple garments. Now, if "Preach nothing but repentance" is condemning to "Hell", then I guess I am guilty of passing judgment and therefore should also be condemned. All I meant to do was caution you and suggest you might want to examine your attitude a little more closely rather than sowing the seeds of apostasy online. My clumsy attempt at conveying this was obviously far too clumsy and I apologize. It sounds to me like you don't have a testimony of the gospel and don't appreciate your temple covenants, anyway, and are simply going through the motions to please your husband, in which case you really do need to do some serious soul searching and figure out what exactly you do believe in and find your own path to follow. The scriptures are repleat with warnings that if you can't embrace the gospel with all your heart, it's better for you not to embrace it at all. The Savior Himself said, "I would that you were either hot or cold but because you are lukewarm, I will spue you out of my mouth." (Rev 3:15-16) The gospel is an all-or-nothing proposition. We either give our heart and soul to the Lord and our covenants or we should never commit to them. Lip service does us more harm than open rejection in the first place.

For someone who is complaining that someone else likes to fight, you certainly are interpreting my post inb the worst possible way. I said you don't recommend the books. You yourself said so. It is as simple as that. You are now deliberately interpreting my post to mean something else - that I am claiming that you opposed to the books. That's your combativeness. Not mine. Okay - it's burden of proof time. You made the claim. He who makes the claim bears the burden of proof. Go ahead. What does that mean? You wonder why people read and post on message boards? Coming from someone who reads and post on a message board I'd think that the answer would come a bit easier. Burden of proof time genevive. Hate-filled? Why don't you practice a communication stylooe that isn't filled with hyperbole? No one hates you genevive - least no one I know. You say "conclusions" as if you have actually concluded something predicated upon something that came before it. Burden of proof time. Again with the conclusion thing... burden of proof time. Yeah - when you attack others you just come across as hypocritical. Go back and read my posts to genevive. Contrary to you, I didn't attack you, didn't assert that you were low, didn't pretend that I understood your personal dysfunctions. You did that and then complained about me doing it. Depise? More hyperbole. Try and stay focused on the topic and leave the personality out of it. Would you please post so evidence so we can discuss it intead of you taking about me so much? Don't you have something else pressing to whine about. You really ought try to lose your fixation on me. I will when you learn some manners and quit being so antagonistic. It's called maturity, Snow...something you obviously lack.

I don't even think you are Mormon. I don't know about YOUR belief structure, but in the LDS structure, something isn't made scripture because someone, even Brigham Young, opines that it is scripture. Snow, I see on your ID you're shown as an "advanced moderator". Does this mean you are a moderator of the board or is that your personal preferencial title? As nasty as you have been in your posts, I hate to believe you are a moderator of the board. There is a definite lack of tact or respect in your attacks on Gaia. Please try to curb your angst and maintain some modicum of civilized and mature communications here. I am really getting offended by your personal attacks on her. I noticed, however, amid all these attacks, that Gaia has never responded in kind. Kudos, Gaia. Not all of your posts have merit but you are certainly allowed the right to post them and at the very least you maintain your dignity and communicate respectfullly. I don't know if I could keep my cool as well as you have done.

Adomini...where can I lay my hands on Doctrines of Salvation???? I would love to get a copy.

I'm with you Snow. I have no time to be reading multiple cut and pastes. That is one my peeve with many posts. If people want to post their opinions then do so. The key word being "their." Not multiple opinions from multiple sources cut and pasted so that the poster appears more intelligent. I lose interest very quickly. Pam, wasn't that dilemma already solved between Snow and Gaia? I don't want to be rude. I'm very grateful for all the quotes Gaia uses-I learn a lot from them. Also, No, I don't believe Gaia is trying to appear more intelligent by quoting many sources of church leadership. I think she doesn't have to prove her intellligence-it's apparent. Also, imho, wouldn't it be better for you and Snow, as mediators, to go to Gaia directly in a -kind- pm with your criticism/concerns, rather than the open arguing and belittling? I value the directive of this website, to kindly respect the beliefs of others. Just a suggestion~ Dove YOU SAID IT, DOVE! I'm with you and for one am sick of the negativity I've read in Snow's posts. "Thumper! What did your father tell you this morning?" Remember, Snow, this is a public forum and your nastiness has been duly noted. As a novice poster but a lifelong member of the church with probably more years in me than you (I deduce this from the tenor of your posts), I particularly am offended. And yes, I hold a current TR and am personally devoted to the Savior and His Gospel.

You know, I have no idea what the problem is here. I know I don't like the elastic around my thighs and if I wore tight pants, yes, the legs would ride up but I don't. Yes, there are times when I have to pull the legs down but as for there being anything else wrong with them, I'm a BBW and the only trouble I have is keeping my supply stocked since I'm about 600 miles from the nearest store and since the ebay fiasco it's harder to order them by phone...I have to remember my baptism date from 42 years ago????? I swear I was just a little kid at the time. A lot of your arguments, though, Aphrodite, are downright unrighteous. You sound a lot like the woman who wrote "Secret Ceremonies". Be careful, my dear, very careful. The point of the garment is not comfort or fashion and frankly, I think they are very well made. Mine last a good long time before I have to replace them. The whole point of wearing them is not to protect us from fires or chainsaws, either. They protect us from spiritual dangers by reminding us of our temple covenants. If we chafe at the garment, how far are we from chafing at those covenants?

Life sometimes gives us all a whack in our love receptors. I struggled for many years with mine and had to finally find someone who could exemplify it for me, outside my family. In my search, I've found myself in many different places with different people and as a result have had quite the nomadic lifestyle. The last time I returned to my hometown I had hopes that my traveling days were over but now it seems that I must once again hit the road in search of a ward that will give me the nurture that my heart and soul craves. Sometimes you just gotta look in more than one place for what you're looking for. I think many of us are a little like my daughter. I'll ask her to find something and she'll ask me where it is. I'll say look for it and she'll scan the room and say "I can't find it" and then I'll walk into the room and there it is. I'll say, "It would have bit you if it had teeth." and we laugh about it. But a lot of us expect to find love without the effort of earnestly looking. I hate pat answers. "Search, Ponder and Pray" doesn't cut it for me. I found myself in the darkest part of my life when I was faithfully reading and praying and writing in my journal and doing all the things that pat answers tell us to do. Sometimes we have to sidestep or walk backwards up the hill in order to reach the top. Sometimes we have to look in a different part of our lives...even if it means another church...to find what the Lord wants us to find. I'm not saying the gospel of the LDS church isn't true but oftentimes the members are just too busy to show us the love we so desperately need. I found my way to Christ through another church and then gained my testimony of the LDS gospel through a wonderful ward in California who showed me the true love of the Savior in many ways. You can search ponder and pray all you want but until someone makes it real for you, it won't sink in. Hoosierbear, I can tell you right now that the search is well worth it. We are all broken shards of clay that only the Savior can make whole...even if some of us don't look like we are.

Sk0y - The answer to your question is a resounding YES!!! IT IS UNTRUE!!! I quote President Joseph Fielding Smith from "Doctrines of Salvation, 2:74-76 "You good sisters, who are single and alone, do not fear, do not feel that blessings are going to be withheld from you. You are not under any obligation or necessity of accepting some proposal that comes to you which is distasteful for fear you will come under condemnation." We are NOT kept from entering the Celestial Kingdom based on marital status. We simply cannot become Gods and Goddesses within that Kingdom. Only about 1/3 of all the inhabitants of the Celestial Kingdom do become Gods and Goddesses. The scripture tells us that those who are not married are "appointed as ministering angels" IN THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM. This whole idea that a single woman cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom is a chief example of FALSE DOCTRINE that is often espoused in church lesson discussions by misguided brethren and sisters...usually the married ones who feel the need to feel superior to their single counterparts. We inherit our eternal Kingdom assignment based on the state of our spirits alone. Once in the CK, we have a CHOICE! That is the whole point of the Celestial Kingdom...that we maintain our free agency. Those who fail to enter the Celestial Kingdom lose their free agency. Those who choose NOT to practice polygamy will not be required to. Those who CHOOSE to practice will be allowed to. Those who choose to marry and become Gods and Goddesses will be allowed to. Those who prefer to remain single and be angels, will be allowed to. There is no doctrine that states that single people will be shut out of the Celestial Kingdom. If there were, think of all the children that died before they were even able to find a mate. Not to mention those of us who are left old and lonely after failing to find a good mate. I thank my Father in heaven that I will have a choice when I get to the crossroads. I can, frankly, think of at least two good men I would love to marry when I get there who are both dead and gone and I just pray I make it so that I will have a choice in the end. It will make all these lonely years on Earth worth it. Further, since this thread topic is polygamy, I will now address my feelings on it. Frankly, there are benefits for a woman to be in a polygamous marriage...not the least of which is having someone to talk to who understands the female mind bent. Another advantage that they had in the old days is help in rearing the children...I, personally, don't know how some of these mothers do it with their ten kids. I only have one and can barely think sometimes trying to teach and manage discipline and keep house. Frankly, I would welcome another woman in the mix. At the same time my sister would never even consider considering it. But that is her choice. It will not be a factor in whether or not either of us enters the Celestial Kingdom because it is a choice, not a commandment. We had a district president here before we became a stake who talked to my Sunday School class once and his comment which he said with a wink was that he was perfectly happy with one wife but he was a little worried because his wife had a testimony of polygamy. Bottom line, though, is that it is not a saving principle. The saving principle is abstinance except within the bonds of marriage...whether monogamous or polygamous. P.S. One other thing you should know about your grandparents: Temple sealings are promisory and null and void if either individual fails to earn a Celestial glory. I don't know the exact reference but I do know that we have been taught that in conference. Everyone in the Celestial Kingdom is sealed to Everyone else, one way or another. Those who fail to earn a Celestial glory, are no longer sealed to anyone.

GAIA: Wow, i just can't get used to your perpetually negative "take" on everything -- I was not trying to be "dismissive"; i did not want anyone to think i was simply ignoring you, and neither was i saying that i couldn't "rebut" your points. I was trying to let you know -- as respectfully and cordially as possible -- that i think this discussion has gone as far as it can go (at least with you), and remain positive and respectful. As i've said several times, i'm not trying to "convince" you of anything, and i don't care to argue. Your position is clear and i think i've made mine clear. ~GAia This is the deal - you made what I think think is an obviously simplistic and unknowable (to you - the person making the allegation) assertion about Lynn Whitesides. I rebut it with something you can't factually rebut while your assertion lies unsupported. Rather than restate, retract or rebut, you dismiss (my term). When I am factually corrrected, usually anyway, I give retract or correct because I do not want my incorrect statements hanging out there. It wouldn't be intellectually honest of me. ME-OWWW!!! Snow, get off your high horse and keep your comments respectful, PLEASE! You only damage your own credibility seriously in attacking Gaia directly instead of simply sharing your beliefs/experiences and insights. Remember, this is a PUBLIC forum. Gaia...take care of those scratches she gave you...some bacitracin should help.

Dove...I just had to share a story with you that my father used to tell all the time. Have you ever noticed that angels are always either women or clean-shaven men? That's because Heaven is a Woman's natural heritage: Men only get in by a close shave. I feel your pain in your posts and would love to share some of my experiences with you as I have come to know my Savior. I am a survivor of assault and abuse and so it has been difficult to relate to a masculine deity in the past but as I have come to know Him, I have found ways to reconcile my life experiences with my faith in spite of the fact that the sources of that spiritual growth have not been within the church exclusively. Line upon line. I had to be fed milk before I could receive meat. God bless...and God bless you, Gaia, for opening this thread.

That really was interesting Doctor Steuss. Thanks for posting it. You mean you could follow it, Sioux72??? I was lost after the first sentence.

GREAT POST. GOOD POINTS. THANK YOU.

Since when does the LDS church VOTE on doctrine??? Doctrine is declared by the prophet of God and is accepted by the body of the church through their sustaining the prophet. It is one of the things that sets the TRUE church apart from the many Protestant faiths out there that vote like political bodies on everything they do. McConkie's work "Mormon Doctrine" has always been the definitive work on LDS doctrine and was mandated by the prophet of the time to spell out what is doctrine. Doctrine is based on scriptures and it is against that touchstone that we base all our judgments, not on the opinion of the masses.