MadHatter

I am uncertain of this. The Catholics have had many changes over the last two millennium. Most recently, Vatican I & II ushered in many changes. The Episcopalians recently had a major change as to who can be Bishops. Ect.... Perhaps we can says that our's is the one true fluidity, but we cannot say we are the only ones who change. Teaching structure and approaches may be dynamic, but the actual doctrines and beliefs have never changed, worthiness requirements for missionaries and other priesthood offices have gotten stricter than before. certain things have changed but our core doctrines and beliefs have never changed, we are not a changing church. we just comprehend more as we go along ans so we seem to believe more things than before but it has actually remained unchanged.

Hat, I presume now that you are getting your "act" together, that the Temple is on your schedule in the future. Be sure to tell your Bishop that you would like to attend a Temple preparation class, If there is none, at least get the books and learn for yourself. It is important that you have some idea as to the basics. And remember that the Lord gave us symbols to learn by. Baptism is symbolic of death and resurrection and for the remission of sins, The Sacrament is a symbol to remind us to remember Christ, and the endowment is basically an interactive teaching session where many symbols are used as teaching aids. And don't try to remember a lot of what happened after your first time through. It takes a few times to begin to get your bearings and really start to grasp things. Thanks Tex, Yes I am preparing to go to the temple with my wife at the appropriate time, she's getting baptized in February, and then when we go to the temple for those things at the appropriate time we will be able to do them together. I've heard some things and read others and i do have a basic idea as to what to expect at the temple. There is a really good book to read by Matthew B. Brown called "The Plan of Salvation - Understaning Our Divine Origin and Destiny" the best LDS doctrine book i have ever read, it goes from the Origin of God through the creation and Fall all the way to death resurrection and exaltation, temple worship and ceremonies. It's at Deseret Book. Of course - and this goes without saying - the evidence for you position is non-existent. Funny that you mock others for having faith when your own position is faith based. We professionals call that hipocrisy. BIZ: Well, what evidence is there that the Bible is actually literally true? Ding Ding Ding! None! What evidence do YOU have that my position is "faith based"? What do you mean? Maybe you should believe in ALL the various world religions mythologies. After all, if it is written down in some religious book and declared to be scripture by the religious/spiritual leadership, it MUST be DA TRWU WERD O" GAWD!!!!!! Is "hipocrisy" something to do with HIPPOS? WhatEVER do you mean? LOL No, we are told from day one to think for ourselves, just because a religious leader (including any of our Prophets) said something does not mean it is true. There is no Hard proof that the Bible or the book of Mormon is true in terms of science, only supporting and circumstantial archaology. but that is not how God operates. It is not part of his program. Even if you held the golden plates in your hand and were allowed to touch and feel them and flip through the sheets of gold pages, you would still not believe it any more then than you do now. that is the plain truth. the ONLY thing that testifies of the truth of god and the gospel Principals is indeed the Holy spirit, the comforter. that is the only way you will know for sure that anything is true and real. We are not mindless drones who follow what our prophets say without question. We are always encouraged to build up our own perfect scructure of truth through dilligent study and prayer and to find out for ourselves. Same goes for scripture. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. Not a single member of this church Believes the Book of Mormon or the Bible to be the word of God unless they themselves had recieved that testimony through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Read Julie B. Beck's tlak int he Ensign this month, "Mothers Who know" It's great my Wife loves the talk.

I agree that we are here to gather knowledge, and to learn truth and gain experience. and to humble ourselves, we have to "first we must descend below all things, to ascend above them" - Brigham Young. Perfection will never come in our mortal state. it can only be achieved through the grace of Jesus Christ if we repent by him. We had to do this though to feel, know, understand, and realize both ends of the spectrum of all truth knowledge and light. We could not appreciate Light without being in darkness, nor could we appreciate Immortality had we not understood mortality. indeed we had to descend below all things and leave our Heavenly Father's presence if we were at all to know everythign there is to know in the universe.

So do you believe the dark-skinned people will become light skinned? I thought that was no longer doctrine. Am I mistaken? Please let me know as I would like to know for sure. How do you know? It is highly unlikely that a daughter of two dark-skinned Native Americans was lighter skinned than they. Also, in the picture of the "twenty Lamanite missionaries," it's only common sense there would be different skin tones. This would have been true in any picture taken of Native Americans, or any other large group for that matter. However, I believe it is wrong to attribute racism to President Kimball's remarks. His love for the "Lamanites" was very powerful. I suspect when he said he saw lighter skin tones, there weren't really any differences, but that he saw them because he wanted to; however this wasn't bigotry. It was because he was so happy for them as he said" "The Day of the Lamanite is nigh." In President' Kimball's mind, there was no greater blessing for them, and he was excited for them. This was not racism; it was joy. Elphaba Yes i agree with you that it was Joy on his part that inspired his words. it is promised in the book of mormon that thier skin would become lighter, and from what i have seen in my wife's family, there is a boy, Rajah, he is 3/4 Filipino, he has blue eys and blonde hair and looks as caucasian as you can possibly get. explain that? same for children of the same generation in her family. I have no doubt that President kimballs words are true, but the idea of it being doctrine is iffy. I don't believe it is a doctrine because it is not taught in our church. Sure, things are said en-passant and speculation here and there, prophesies coming true. Yes, i see Presiden't kimballs words coming true. being doctrinally binding? i think not..

It is a couple of things. The reason they put things in those terms back then was because of the time. It may be the fact that this pheonomena occurs because it was foreordained by God. what he is talkign about really does happen genetically. i see it in my wife's family. the youngest generation of children are very pale-skinned compared to thier older ancestors. my wife's family is from the Negros Island in the philipines. the reason they named it that is because the spaniards came over and they were such a dark skinned people they thought they were black. now is not the case in the past few generations, thier skin has become lighter. His words are not racist, maybe somehat tactless, but his observations are correct. The problem is that people of our time try to apologize for what they say rather than the way they said it. and also we don't put emphasis on certain things like that nowadays because it brings up questions liek "are the LDS racist?" wrong, our father in heaven loves all of his children and treats them equally. Our prophets do not contradict eachother, but it has always been stated that one remark made by a prophet on a certain occasion does not constitute doctrine. The only doctrines that are in this church are from multiple prophets. and even then we are TOLD to pray about it for ourselves to truely now if it is correct. Nobody is infalliable, not Gordon B. not the Pope, not Moses or Noah, and not even Joe Smith. they are all men, they are all of the flesh, they are just as susceptible to mistakes as anyone else in the world. Mightr i add that it was under the Direction of the Lord that Spencer W. Kimball extended priesthood authority to all worthy men in the church regardless of race or color. Aphrodite, Ruabien - I hope you pray about things sincerely and realize the truthfulness in the statements made by prophets. even if we don't expound upon them because of certian implications nowadays. if ever you have doubts, pray about things, let the spirit guide you and always lead you to know the truth.

I wonder if anyone would be interested in having this pinned as part of our doctrine?

Thanks you guys, i didn't mean to be an attention grabber or antyhign, i'm just so happy and greatful formy wife and her decisions. We live in Kent. we will probably be sealed in the seattle temple if we are still here in the next couple years.

She told me she was sitting in relief society a couple weeks ago when a sister was bearing her testimony, and a few other women taked about some experiences. That she almost cried because she felt so greatful for the gospel and the church. Nothing else could have brought me more joy right now. My wife has been taking the missionary discussions the past few weeks and she has been reading the Book of Mormon every day for the past couple of months. and she set a date for baptism. February 9th!!!!! We have to wait till my time is up so i can baptise and confirm her a member myself, Both her and I want myself to do it.

Here is a really good way to get rid of kidney stones. my mom did it numerous times and it completely dissolved her kidney stones. 1 12oz can of Asparagus, blended. 6 pack of coca-cola (real stuff not imitation, and not caffine free either) the asparagus is basically 100% fiber. this will be your scrubber for your system (figuratively). it will smooth out the stone and allow it to pass easier. the coke is acidic, and dissolves kidney stones like crazy. working in combination with the asparagus it acts like a roto-rooter for your urinary tract. drink the asparagus all at once, (i know some of you may not like it but do it anyways) then drink as much of the coke as you can handle in 1 hour. the caffine in the coke will open your blood vessels and allow better blood flow through your body allowing for the fiber to pass through easier and clean out the grit. then after the hour drink nothing but water.

The reason we pray to God, is because he is our father, he gave us everything we have. We pray in Christ's name because without Christ's Atonement we can not return to live with our heavenly father again. and untill we are judged and have been cleansed from all sin, we will be doing everything in Christ's name. Christ payed for our sins with his atonement. In essence, he owns us. we follow his commandments because Christ is the one who will judge us and be there to take the punishment for our sakes so that we may return to our heavenly Father. The Holy Ghost does many things. He testifies of truth, he comforts, he guides. but most importantly, when you are baptized and recieve the GIFT of the Holy Ghost, you are then able to partake of the atonement. The gift of the holy ghost is also called "baptism by fire" which literally means just that. the Holy Ghost cleanses your spirit as if by fire when you truely repent. Baptism by immersion is the death of your old self, and reborn as a child of God. it is in the similtude of death and resurrection. The baptism by fire, or recieveing the Holy Ghost, allows your soul to actually be cleansed from sin. Those are the main roles of the godhead.

I have no idea where where you get the idea that the fall of man was sprung unknowing on anybody or that all covenants were in effect befor the fall. If all covenants were in effect what purpose is there in mortality? If you reference Alma chapter 13 you will clearly see that those that kept their first estate were "added" upon in their second or mortal estate and those that keep their second estate will be added upon in the resurrection. There is a direct relationship to the covenants kept in one estate to the covenants that are added upon in a following estate. For example there are two kinds of covenants introduced during temple worship. The first kind is the covenants that apply directly to the estate in which one currently lives. The second kind are covenants that will not have effect until some later time. I am sorry but on this forum this is all that can be said. It is important to note that covenants do change. As you stated Baptisism is a covenant of this estate and cannot be made before or after mortality. When the fall took place (just like death) the time of certain covenants has ended and the time for other covenants based on our choices is now available. The Traveler I must admit I have very little knowlege of temple worship because i went inactive in my teens and only recently got my act together. I agree with you that things are "added" not changed, which i stated in my previous post. The fall did not alter any covenants, it just allowed more covenants to be made. I did not say we made the covenants, but we were made aware of them before coming to this earth. and that the purpose of mortality was to give us the experience needed to become a God, at the risk of loosing our eternal life and glory. and also to gain a physical body like our fathe rin heaven, once perfected has the potential to be glorified to a divine being.

Bold above is mine..... Traveler, I have followed your discussion with Madhatter closely and must admit that it leaves me in confusion also. My understanding parallels what Madhatter has posted, although in some areas I think he has made some conclusions by extrapolation (which, neverless, may be true) instead of hard doctrine. I think that you are saying above that if there were no change (or changes) in the covenants made during their premortal existence between the Father and his spirit children, then Adam could not have set the stage (via the "fall") for their entrance into the fallen mortal world by taking on bodies composed of mortal elements. If I have this right, would you point out which covenants made in the pre-fall period had to be changed before the fall could take place? We are all trying to understand the point you are attempting to make. Thanks, Old Tex Thank you for your interest: There are several covenant changes that took place and had immediate effect upon all mankind and the structure of heaven: First: The divine relationship, status and rights man (as spirit children) had with the Father were made null and void. Second: The Son became our covenant Sovereign, Third: Our right to and heir-ness to divine priesthood of the Father was lost (in reality this is a more detailed explanation of the First item). These covenant changes were necessary in order that man have a mortal (blood) experience. This is why blood was required by covenant in order to have a just covenant with the Mediator G-d, Jesus Christ – the G-d of the Old Testament (or Old covenant). Prior to Jesus the blood covenant was a type and shadow that was completed (or fulfilled – also called “made perfect”) by a divine and eternal blood sacrifice. This change was not just the choice of Adam but of all the children of Adam that enjoyed the divine presents and protections of the Father. Those that refused this covenant change established their covenants and priesthoods through Lucifer and established a kingdom in which Lucifer was Sovereign. Those that accepted the plan of a change in covenants and priesthoods established The Son as their covenant Sovereign. In essence, all the covenant children of the Father and heirs to him were set on courses that removed them as citizens of the Kingdom of the Father (which is represented in the Eden Epoch as the Tree of Life). It is interesting to note that the symbolism of “Cherubim” is a plural reverence and not a singular reference and many seem to think. Although this has important repercussions to covenants and the eternal scheme of things few seem to understand or care about this symbolism. The Fall of Man is a gateway concept to all the covenants, doctrines, commandments and ordinances included in the Gospel of Jesus Christ – yet it is one of the most miss-understood principles of religion addressed in our modern times. The Traveler I have to disagree with this, on that fact that you think it was "sprung" on us about mortality. I am very sure due to scriptural refrences in the D&C and BoM that we knew full well the plan as we were being raised as spirit children, we were taught the same gospel there as we were here. Just as we wait till we are 8 to be baptised, we are made aware of that coveneant before hand. I'm very sure it was the saem in the pre-existence, that we were taught about it and learned what mortality would do. then we were given the choice to either accept it or not. those who didn't followed lucifer and htose who did came ot earth to gain bodies. the covenants remained the same throughout the eons, but we had to wait untill we were prepared to take those upon ourselves, there was no "change" and the Fall was not a mishap in which God had to send someone to redeem us because of the "mistake" it was all planned out for us from the beginning.

Line upon line precept upon precept is for our mortal understanding of the gospel, I;m sure it is also the same in the pre-existence. Mortality itself was a covenant that if we keep it, we will gain our exaltation as a reward. I;m not sure what you mean by "Type and Shadow" We began to covenant with God before the earth began, baptism is one of our mortal covenants. and is the first step towards greater mortal covenants which we will take with us after we die. The covenants did not Change, they were just added upon. line UPON line, not "line instead of line" meaning as we make and keep covenants we are given the privilege of making and keeping more covenants "line upon line" Baptism is in the similitude of death and resurrection. Our mortal covenants existed before the world began but we could not take upon ourselves those covenants because we were not mortal, nor were we in a fallen state. it was not just "for the fun of it" to see people get "dunked" in water or whatever. It has been the plan all along, to take things one step at a time, Just as our Father in Heaven once did.

Thanks for all of your work. That is awesome about your wife!!!! Will you be the one to baptise her?? Onyx Thank you again, although i cannot take all the credit, the Lord allowed me to find an amazing and wonderfuly insightful book "The Plan of Salvation - Understanding Our Divine Origin and Destiny" Yes, i will be the one to baptize my wife, February 9th, It's the weekend before my birthday. and just after the time my bishop has said that i would be worthy to.