butsam

Let's see... If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound? * Classical Physics: It makes longitudinal vibrations of another medium (air), which are defined as making sound -- yes. * Quantum Mechanics: Only if you hear it. Otherwise, it is in a superposition of yes-no states, waiting for a measurement to take place. * Martians: What's sound? Of course this is tongue-in-cheek. Quantum effects are not observable on the larger scale of classical physics, so the physical answer is "yes". Sam

Actually, separation of CHURCH and state is good. Separation of RELIGION and state is wrong. Indorsement of a particular church by the federal government, or by a state, is wrong. This practice was done away with a long time ago, early in the history of our nation, when several founding fathers were still alive and in governmental power. Sam

Please forgive me for being in and out of the board...are you referring to our members in Twin Falls, or was there a different attack as well?Sam

Actually, that is not true... In fact, there was a German pope about 1000 years ago. I didn't say all the Popes were Italian. I said there hasn't been a non-Italian pope since before America existed as a nation, which is true -- I think the last non-Italian was Alexander, the Spanish Borgia pope from the early 1500s, who was quite the studmonkey: "He no sooner donned the red [cardinal's] cap than he doffed it, together with the rest of his raiment, for a marathon romp with a succession of women whose identities are unknown to us and may well have been unknown to him" -- William Manchester, A World Lit Only By Fire Sorry for the misunderstanding; agreed on that point. But then again, there has never been a Prophet of our church that has not been born in America... I don't see how this disenfranchises the Pope any. Sam

A bit late, but I just re-discovered this board...been awhile (years) but I am back...I have Easter withdrawl and I'm not a convert. It is sad how much it is overlooked. In May, we have special Priesthood restoration lessons and Sacrament Meeting... All year, we are celebrating Joseph Smith's 200th birthday... A few years ago, we celebrated the 150-year anniversary of the trek to SLC... But there is no Holy Week celebration? Especially Easter (and Good Friday)? Ironically, the Jews were commanded to recognize Passover specifically once per year in preparation of the ultimate sacrifice Christ would give... But do we think that commandment has turned into no more recognition of that which fulfilled the Passover celebration? No, the thought makes reason stare. It is disappointing...especially considering how fundamental (and yet misunderstood) the Atonement is. We don't tend to discuss the Atonement much above mentioning the phrase "the Atonement" and "Gethsemane". There is so much more to it that is also vital in the most glorious eucatastrophic sacrifice ever given. Sam

On the topic at hand...in order to hopefully foster a more broad understanding: The process for selecting the successor to the Prophet is similar: * A group of select men meet in a room in a secret conclave (ie, a meeting in a building that is sealed off from the rest of the world, and in a room that is sealed off from the rest of the general membership) * There is no requirement of blood relationship at all (that was the RLDS claim, not the LDS claim...I assume we are talking LDS on this board and not RLDS, right?) * There is a vote conducted (just because it has been the ranking member in LDS history does not mean it is always that way--technically it comes down to a vote) Let's not be so quick to pounce...especially on other good Christians. Sam

Actually, that is not true...In fact, there was a German pope about 1000 years ago.

That is fine, lindy; I will give the chance. I seriously did not know if this was an "all is well in Zion" board, there are some like that on the Internet where I made the mistake of posting anything that wasn't current cultural LDS and was chased out like a wild banshee. A few more questions with respect to the topic: If Gethsemane is so central, why so little scripture (even in the Book of Mormon) about it then? I do not doubt Gethsemane was part of the sacrifice, don't get me wrong here. But if it is the focus, though, then why is it that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Nephi, Jacob, Alma, Moroni, and even Christ Himself do not bring it out to be central? I can think of Christ declaring one scripture about the Gethsemane sacrifice, but several about the Cross. Also, in order for scripture to be complete Christ had to be completely forsaken. Did this happen in Gethsemane? Not to my knowledge. In fact, I recall a scripture about an angel coming to strengthen Christ while in Gethsemane. It wasn't until on the cross that Jesus felt truly forsaken, when He exclaimed, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" So for the sacrifice for sin to be complete, the cross is necessary, and not just because it was what brought about His death. The claim of uniqueness is one I often hear. It is not backed up by scripture, though. The sacrifice was valid because Christ was sinless. Let me give an example, based on Elder Packer's famous debt/debtor allegory. When Christ steps in to pay the debt, the uniqueness side of the house claims He should have to pay in, say, cows, rather than money; after all, then it would be a unique payment of the debt. That just doesn't make sense for justice to demand a unique payment. Of course, it was unique in that it paid the price for all sin, don't take this wrong. But the method of payment did not have to be unique, it just had to be complete. Gethsemane, the Cross, and all of the events in between make it complete. In fact, D&C 19 and elsewhere tend to refute the idea of uniqueness: If they would not repent, then they must suffer, even as I... (So others will go through the suffering). It is Christ's sinless nature that saves, not uniqueness. "Knowest thou the condescention of God?" He was brought to the lowest depth of humanity. Sam

There are many who thrill in trying to breakdown the core belief of the LDS faith, by attacking the little things that should make no difference at all. What difference should it make if we believe that Christ suffered for our sins in Gethsemane, as well as suffering for them on the cross? Very hard to imagine the paparazzi and the media chasing Christ around to give an exclusive on where and when the exact mode of suffering took place. We have to go by our faith and our own belief in what took place. It should be enough (I would think) that we, as a core group of Christians, believe that He suffered, He bled and died. (taken from a sacrement hymn). I still think that Christians should stand together as brothers (and sisters) in this world. Hand in hand, Catholics, LDS, RLDS, Methodists, Adventists, Lutherans, Evangelistics, Baptists, etc......and not worry about the little differences in beliefs. In closing this post, I would like to quote 1 Pet. 4: 16 which says: "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf." Thank you for the judgment. You obviously know me so well....I do notice "sufferingS", and that includes Gethsemane. I also notice "cross", "crucifixion", and "death". What part of what I posted was tearing down LDS faith, pray tell? I believe strongly in the Book of Mormon, which is why I posted a concerned message. If you think that declaring the crucifixion as central to the sacrifice for sin is tearing down LDS faith, then you are gravely mistaken. I'm an active LDS member, but I'm not an "all is well in Zion" member...I'm sorry if you wanted an "all is well in Zion" board...if that is the case, I will leave now. Sam

Yes there really are. I have heard quite frequently that Gethsemane = suffering for sin, and the cross was only necessary to kill Jesus so He could be resurrected. Such a scriptorally-incorrect doctrine needs to be corrected. OK, maybe "struggle" was the wrong word...I get frustrated. Sam

I struggle all of the time with people who have the notion that Christ suffered for sin only (and completely) in Gethsemane. I am curious as to how people could have this position, especially in light of all of the LDS scripture and doctrine to the contrary. I hope by reading this post, you can learn about this glorious part of Christ's life for which we are all in debt, according to true LDS doctrine, not cultural LDS fallacy, that the Spirit may testify to you of this event. I will post a small sample of scripture, mostly from the Book of Mormon in order to show that the Book of Mormon even shows that the suffering for sin was also endured in the scourging and on the Cross. We begin with some symbolism first: Helaman 8 14 Yea, did he not bear record that the Son of God should come? And as he lifted up the brazen serpent in the wilderness, even so shall he be lifted up who should come. 15 And as many as should look upon that serpent should live, even so as many as should look upon the Son of God with faith, having a contrite spirit, might live, even unto that life which is eternal. Because Christ was lifted up on the cross, we too can inherit eternal life. All that is required is faith and a contrite spirit. D&C 76 41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness "May his sufferings and death rest in your mind forever" (LDS Index, "Jesus Christ, Death of") Moroni 9 25 My son, be faithful in Christ; and may not the things which I have written grieve thee, to weigh thee down unto death; but may Christ lift thee up, and may his sufferings and death, and the showing his body unto our fathers, and his mercy and long-suffering, and the hope of his glory and of eternal life, rest in your mind forever. 3 Nephi 27 (from Christ Himself) 13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me. 14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil— 15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works Mosiah 15 7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father 3 Nephi 6 20 And there began to be men inspired from heaven and sent forth, standing among the people in all the land, preaching and testifying boldly of the sins and iniquities of the people, and testifying unto them concerning the redemption which the Lord would make for his people, or in other words, the resurrection of Christ; and they did testify boldly of his death and sufferings. Anyone else care to boldly testify of His death and sufferings? I am glad we testify of Christ risen, and we do a good job of that in church. Christ the Lord is alive today, an important message. But it is also important to know that He died for our sins..."Our sins nailed Him to the Cross" is not just a mainstream-Christian phrase, it is LDS theology as well. We seem to skim over the death and sufferings, with the exception of the suffering in Gethsemane. Alma 21 9 Now Aaron began to open the scriptures unto them concerning the coming of Christ, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and that there could be no redemption for mankind save it were through the death and sufferings of Christ, and the atonement of his blood. Alma 22 14 And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king Mosiah 14/Isaiah 53 entire thing; here is a small subset to whet your whistle: 4 Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Alma 30 26 And ye also say that Christ shall come. But behold, I say that ye do not know that there shall be a Christ. And ye say also that he shall be slain for the sins of the world— (in this verse, "ye" = Alma, "I" = Korihor) Interestingly, Korihor taught the crucifixion was not part of the sacrifice for sin. Perhaps Satan is trying to sneak in a small portion of Korihor doctrine in very subtlely by making it common to teach that the crucifixion was not part of the sacrifice for sin. A small (very small) sample of people who had visions of His death and suffering: Nephi 1 Nephi 11 33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world. Jacob Jacob 1 8 Wherefore, we would to God that we could persuade all men anot to rebel against God, to provoke him to anger, but that all men would believe in Christ, and view his death, and suffer his cross and bear the shame of the world; wherefore, I, Jacob, take it upon me to fulfil the commandment of my brother Nephi (Perhaps even Nephi commanded it to be so!) Enoch Moses 7 55 And the Lord said unto Enoch: Look, and he looked and beheld the Son of Man lifted up on the cross, after the manner of men; For those who are endowed...think Melchizedek Priesthood (men and women alike) in relation to the Crucifixion and Temple symbolism...I will not be more specific of course because it deals with the Temple. And finally, if you still are not convinced, let's again go back to the Master Himself: 3 Nephi 11 14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. I hope this has enlightened you to true LDS theology in regards to Christ's suffering for sin; let's stop the myth floating around that Christ's suffering for sin did not include the scourging or the crucifixion. That simply is not true. From Gethsemane to His death, Christ suffered for our sins. There are countless Bible scriptures that support this, but I have chosen to stick with the uniquely LDS scripture so I can show you it is not merely symbolic or a mistranslation. I bear you these things in the name of Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, Amen. Sam