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I don't blame you for stating that you believe the LDS Church is the only path; in fact I think it's excellent that you believe that and state that. It is the circle the wagons mentality and the immediate "if you leave you are damned" mentality. That literally does nothing-and in fact drives people away rather than helps. It feels good for those who "circle the wagons" . . . but all it does is treat others as enemies. And it's like . . .well okay . . .if the religion/culture/people who are LDS treat those who have had a rough time of it as enemies . . . maybe just maybe it's not a good place to be. And it's cool, look every religion is going to have THAT guy or THAT person who is just a jerk. Expecting everyone to be angels is unreasonable. Yet if it's a YW president, it's a Bishop, it's a SP, it's an FSY Director (that's another story!!!), if it's the common ward member, if it's the random guy on the internet... At some point . . . it's like okay, maybe I'm the problem or maybe it's the culture/religion that is the problem. Let me got somewhere else and see how they treat others. Maybe it's a me problem. Let me find a different Christian group and see . . .is it any different. Oh . . yeah it is . . .they don't treat those who fall away like this. Do a reddit search for "ex-orthodox", do a reddit search for "ex-mormon". It's eye-opening. Okay sure the LDS rational is "well we have the truth and those who fall away are just bitter and angry and hate us". That's one narrative. It might be the true narrative. Okay here is another religion who claims it's the one true Church. They don't have these problems. It could be the reason they don't have those problems is because they aren't the "one true Church". Or it could be they don't have these problems because the culture is different. I mean the Orthodox believe just as strongly that they are the true faith as LDS; yet their entire approach is different. Their entire culture is different. The problems that exist in LDS just simply do not exist in Orthodox. Is LDS the True Gospel and Orthodox not? Or is it the reverse? I honestly don't know; but life is short. And I'd rather live my life without all the drama of the LDS culture. Maybe there is drama in Orthodox that I haven't seen yet; totally possible. Yet I've frequented their forums, their on-line culture. In general it is no where near as toxic; and the problems they are dealing with are more like "hey we need to build church schools to protect our youth". "hey we don't have enough people to teach sunday school, we need more people who are skilled at teaching, more people to step up and not just attend on Sunday". Yes, you trade one set of problems for another. At the same time, I'm old and as I raise my family; the last place I need drama and toxicity in is where I go to Church on Sunday.

Saying I have issues with gospel truth is different than saying effectively I and my future generations will be damned for not sticking with it. Yes, I do have issues. But to a large part most of the issues are things that I can overlook. I don't agree with BY; I don't agree with the typical line that JS practiced polygamy; I don't think he ever did. Yet I also think that what actually happened during those years is pretty darn murky (so it is possible he did)-the history has been written and re-written and when comparing what is in the JS papers to the current narrative I see inconsistencies. I understand why regardless of whether he did or did not the Church must say JS instituted polygamy. The Church has to say that; because the Church is built upon a line of continuous righteous prophets who in the modern Church teaching must be right in what they do; because God will never allow the Church to go astray and will remove a man who gets it wrong. Therefore, there is no room, no ability for the Church to say . . .yeah this guy got it wrong . . . it is a dance of "this was right then, it isn't right now, that is why x/y/z changes". I take JS at his word when he said he had a theophany. I see no reason not to. I think the Book of Mormon is a pretty amazing book. It is hard for me to fathom a man uninspired by God to write such a book. I don't have a problem with Temple rites . . . which are liturgical in nature. However, Temple rites were not written down until long, long after JS was dead. JS certainly created some form of Temple/liturgical rites, yet that form is vastly different than today and even the covenants are different than today. The Church has an easy out; a continuous line of righteous prophet who are not wrong. I think tithing is a great thing; I disagree with how tithing is taught but I agree that tithing is in principle an absolutely necessary and wonderful thing. Every bit of that I have overlooked and given the benefit of the doubt to. Not a big deal. I can calculate my tithing; pay my tithing and answer honestly. If someone wants more details or questions me; I will respond. Yet there are some things that are fundamentally deal breakers. The purpose of religion is to teach people how best to live their lives and to worship God. One of the fundamental aspects of Christianity is the knowledge that our thoughts are not necessarily us and that the greatest struggle in an individuals live is the struggle of the heart (i.e. discarding thoughts that are unGodly and disciplining our internal passions-that all external sins come from undisciplined internal passions). If one particular group of individuals gets a pass on those passions (i.e. it's acceptable to internally be undisciplined on thoughts, but unacceptable to act out those things in life) in real life; I found that position internally and theologically inconsistent. And that is a theological viewpoint in which God plays favorites. So I would prefer a more honest approach, if it is acceptable to be internally undisciplined in some thought pattern, then it should be acceptable for that thought pattern to be acted out in life. Which means, if it is acceptable for individuals to be sexually/romantically/etc. attracted to the same-sex, then it should be acceptable to act out those thoughts/feelings in the world. If it is unacceptable to act out those thoughts/feelings in the world, then it should be unacceptable for someone to be sexually or romantically attracted to the same-sex. There are many things that I have enacted in the world that are unacceptable; but I have to both change my outward actions and my inward actions. A religion that is inconsistent in that aspect; is one that cannot hold itself together because it will always be making excuses for bad behavior and bad thought patterns. One day it is same-sex sexual desire. What is the difference between same-sex sexual desire and desire to steal a car? Currently, in the LDS Church it appears that in the first an individual can openly tell others they desire that which is forbidden; they can ruminate on it; think about it; explore those thoughts, feelings and it is acceptable. As long as one does not physically act on it. In the second, we are told to change ourselves that one should not think thoughts about stealing a car, that those thoughts come from the evil one to tempt us. No one goes around "coming out" as someone who desires to steal cars, no one says "the desire to steal a car is intrinsic to my very core and if I do not tell everyone that I desire to steal cars I will kill myself." At the end of the day; the Orthodox are consistent in their teachings about the heart. I'd rather that be the message taught to my children than whether we have a living prophet who can see around corners and someone who prophesy and can foretell the future. It would be great to have both-that was my youth. It is not today.

I'm totally cool with liberals (not that I agree philosophically or theologically) but what I mean is I get it. Inclusion for all is simply a lie. There must be a boundary of what is acceptable to be "in the group" and what is unacceptable. There will always be a boundary. I don't mind a boundary; I don't mind saying "here is what one must believe in order to be apart of the group". Yep, totally agree with that mindset. What I disagree with (and what I think you are getting at) is that there are acceptable and unacceptable ways to tell others, "hey this is the group and this is the boundary of what it means to be in the group; we want you to be in the group, but here is what you need to do to conform to be in the group". If you are unwilling to do so we will politely say in the best way possible "we don't think you are a good fit for the group". 100% totally agree with that. And that is what I mean when I say I'm cool with liberals, liberals want to have a group that says "hey LGBTQ+ come on in; to be apart of the group you must accept and love them". Totally cool. I won't be apart of that group, I don't begrudge that; I think it's wrong; but cool-go have that group. Just don't begrudge me b/c I want to be in a group that says the opposite.

COVID really did a number on things. My parents visited Church for the blessing of my youngest. Church is open, masks were not required, most wore them some did not, we were not the only ones who didn't. The Bishop refused to shake my fathers hand. Like my dad was a leper. Okay . . .whatever man. Then the shots really did another number; people getting up in F&T meeting saying they were getting the shot b/c they follow the Prophet. Clearly since we didn't wear masks, we didn't get the shot (never told anyone one way or the other . . .except someone who consider a great friend). This individual after I said, we have a disagreement; I don't see it the same way, he broke off communication for about a year. I mean I get it; no one wants to die RIGHT NOW. But I'm come very close to death in my life and I have a different opinion; God will call me when he calls me; I won't go looking for it; but I'm not going to live my life in fear of it. That didn't go over well at all. I told my buddy, who broke off comms for about a year right before he broke off comms. I said; I really wish they hadn't done this . . . all it has done and will do is drive people apart. I don't feel the need to get the shot; I've prayed about it, we don't feel the need for it. If others want to do it-that's cool. Went over like a lead balloon. The downstream effects of putting a stake in the ground. Especially when the SP comes and beats the pulpit telling everyone to get the shot and we have a Prophet; we could literally throw away the entire volume of scriptures and we would be 100% okay b/c we have a prophet. Umm . . .okay man. I mean Lehi was a prophet and they went back to get the brass plates, if all they needed was a prophet why did they go back???

Which is fine; I don't know him either. There was no intended dig. My only point is that the comment which effectively states "regardless of what has happened to you, you better stick with the Church b/c if you don't you are damned" is the exact same attitude that drove away my wife. The text from this nasty woman stated STE "if you don't like the way we are teaching the class, and you don't sustain the Prophet (side comment, which is silly b/c we never brought anything of that into any conversation nor was there any discussion of it, and really what she was saying is "I SUSTAIN the Prophet and b/c I SUSTAIN the prophet and I have been called by God, who called the Bishop, who called the SP, who called the Prophet-therefor what I teach is what the Prophet would want taught here and b/c I am the called leader, if you don't SUSTAIN ME-you are vicariously not sustaining the prophet"); well you better find yourself a different Church". Well okay then. With friends like that who needs enemies!!!

I 100% totally agree; literally it came so far out of the blue; I had to double-take. I still to this day 10 months, bewildered by it. And as an FYI, the bishopric right before they were released requested to come over. Even after all that, I said sure. We had a good discussion. We didn't mention this as I'm not sure it would have done much good. It more felt like the Bishop wanted to see if I was ticked at him...I have completely forgiven him. I might have said this; but I think he was directed by the SP to do whatever necessary to get rid of us. I genuinely think the Bishop is a decent man and wants to do what is right. After he was released the Bishop is now the Stake Clerk. You know it's weird. This huge issue and the husband of the wife is in the High Councilor, the Bishop the Stake Clerk. I've been in the business world long enough that it feels like a "you did xyz job I gave you, now here is your promotion". Which is fine; that's cool . . .I could be totally wrong.

No I don't; so I'm not sure what the comment this is about. There was no intended dig there. It was just a statement of fact. This isn't about "acceptance and love".

Yes God's position is the only one that matters. It's irrelevant whether I believe LDS is God's Church or not. It only matters what path the one True God desires me to follow. You are LDS; why are baptisms for the dead performed? So those who's hearts are pure will be brought into God's presence. If you truly believe that; they why do you fight so hard to convince me that the LDS Church is the One True Church; why do you say "oh you will be damned". If the LDS Church is the one true Church; is God not big enough; is He not mighty enough that even one who has experienced horrific things at the hands of His servants and who goes off into the wilderness might one day (either in this life or the next be brought back)? If you truly believe in the prodigal son and in baptism? Why do you fight the possibility that YOU are the one who MUST tell me that I and my family will be damned? If you are so confident in God, why is the response simply just a quite "I know this is the truth; I'm sorry that there are wrongs that have been committed by those in charge; and I'm confident that even though you might go and attend other places, God will eventually lead you back?" I'm generally curious why you feel the need to mention "oh you are damned, you apostate"?

And that is where we differ. I refuse to sacrifice my children upon the alter of this new ideology. If you think it is just "love and acceptance" you are sadly mistaken. It is about acceptance of horrific sodomic activities; it is acceptance of horrific mutilation of body and soul. It is about acceptance of young men who openly admit they have romantic interest in other young men, who feel spurned b/c that romantic interest is not reciprocated being called to serve missions with no correction; with these young men feeling it is appropriate to do so. I refuse to tell my children that their eternal salvation, i.e. being a good member depends on them serving a mission with someone who believes it is acceptable to have romantic interest with the same-sex. If leaders are unwilling to stand up to and if my requests for my local leaders to stand up to it go unrequited AND because of those requests my wife and I are the recipients of the most vile, disgusting words and actions from said leaders AND there is no recognition that behavior is unbecoming of any leader, if all those things are met well.... I will GLADLY leave and go someplace healthy for the spiritual well-being of my children. And at the last day, if God tells me I did wrong, I will GLADLY repent and say Lord I made a mistake; please forgive me. And if He refuses to forgive me. That is His call. I did what I had to do given the knowledge I have, given what God gave me for the spiritual wellbeing of my children. And no one else is their father. Judge me all you want for it. Totally cool. I know where I stand.

I would totally love for the other side to present their case. It was what I BEGGED the Bishop for. I BEGGED the Bishop; hey let us please sit down with the YW President you as the mediator and let's hash this out; let's figure it out. I BEGGED the Bishop; please let us invite them over for dinner; let us heal this-let us find a way where we as parents can feel confident in what they are teaching our kids. I WANT to feel confident in them; I WANT to be able to raise my hand in support. That is the goal; we are not there right now. Help us; PLEASE help us get there. Every request was met with a "I do not think that would be a good idea". "I told you as a mom, you are not allowed into the young woman's room". Did my wife say anything inappropriate "No, but testimonies are being destroyed". We don't want to feel that my wife is needed in the room; but we do. HELP to not feel that. Please!!!! No, you are not allowed in the room at all; if you disobey me again I will execute a restraining order on you. . . .what??? How did we go from let's heal this rift to if you go in uninvited again you I will call the cops and have a restraining order. In what bizarro world are we living in. We are members in good standing. Not a single charge of inappropriate behavior is leveled. Not a single instance of "we need to call a membership council", nothing . . .absolutely nothing. Yet we dared to oppose in Ward Conference. I'm confident the directive given from the Stake President was to get rid of us; because he even said "after consultation with the Stake President" they had nothing to pull any charges up. Just threats and nasty, nasty behavior.

Only in the LDS Church is it taught that someone who leaves ends up being damned. Only in the LDS Church is it taught that someone who leaves is someone who tosses away the entirety of Christianity, will not believe in God, Christ, will start drinking, get tattoos, and become a wild beast. What a silly, foolish notion of religion. Even other religions who believe they are the one true Church, don't feel the need to say such foolish things. Seriously who does it help? That message is one of weakness not of confidence. It says "your eternal salvation is dependent on us and don't ever doubt US because if you doubt US then you will loss your testimony and then you will lose your eternal salvation". A message confidence is "we are the true faith" you will not find it anywhere else. While not good, if you leave, we have the confidence that God will lead you back to the true faith. No berating, no circling the wagons, no "oh my goodness this person left . . .let's ATTACK them". Just a simple quite confidence. It's a position of strength. Your response is a position of weakness not strength.

Typical LDS response. I never claimed "saintly innocent". I only claimed that the ONLY behavior that the Bishop EVER corrected my wife and I for was that my wife sat in the room. Oh yes, I know the claims that were made against my wife. They claimed my wife was "destroying testimonies". Here are the things that happened that "destroyed testimonies". This was outside of SS; a girl mentioned that for Halloween she was going to dress-up as Jesus and her friends were going to dress-up as the 12 Apostles. My wife said that's a little sacrilegious. That "destroyed" testimonies. A girl mentioned she had a friend who liked girls but is now dating boys; my wife said "well that's a good thing!". That destroyed testimonies. One of the youth activities the girls wanted to do was one which would involve things such as having the young men put on tutoos, spin in a circle while doing some girly thing-pure humiliation to the boys, every activity was showing how much better girls are than boys. My wife in the room, said "hey do we need to make fun of others to have fun". The young woman's response was an emphatic "Yes!!!". Mind you no one, not a single person ever mentioned these incidents to us. They were literally the ones where my wife could think about that might have caused friction. I was told directly by the YW president (after my wife mentioned they should probably have a lesson on modesty-given the girls were wearing booty shorts to youth activities). "This isn't your grandma's church....and that's a good thing". Could I or my wife in instances such as these had better tone, better expression, sure. But there is a heck-of a lot more to this story. When the 1st councilor in the YW presidency saw how badly my wife was treated. She RESIGNED. She was already struggling with temple belief. But the level of toxicity displayed toward her for saying "hey we have a mom who would like to be involved; let's find a way for her to be involved" caused her to RESIGN. Her husband was the 1st councilor in the Bishopric. Within a month after her resignation; he was released. Our family 5 kids (2 kids in youth). Their family 7 kids (4 kids in youth). Our two families combined made up OVER 10% of the attending members. The YW president, one child in the program; councilor-no children in the program. After the YW councilor resigned they found another woman to take the position; they had been in the ward for 5 months; 2 months later they announced they were moving (and I had talked with them, they were planning on staying a while). In the 10 months afterward AND a new Bishopric the YW Presidency had the YW President and one councilor running the entire YW; in a ward of about 150 attending members. Just the past couple of weeks did they call an additional councilor for the YW. Immediately after we left and a new Bishopric, the husband (who was in the prior Bishopric) of the woman who sent such nasty vile text was put in as a High Councilor. The other family with 7 kids. The wife was already struggling and she REMOVED her name from the records of the Church. The Bishop and the YW president blamed us as the ones who were "destroying testimonies". Yet no one; not a single person would ever say "this is what you have done". Our very presence offended others b/c we believe in the values we were taught growing up and not as the YW president said "this ain't your grandma's Church". I don't know . . .could we have handled it better; sure. Do we have blame to go around. Absolutely; I am no Saint. I didn't come here looking for any validation of my story. I know what we lived through, I know what happened and it doesn't make a hill of beans difference whether anyone believes it or not. I didn't come here looking for anyone to believe or provide a pity party. Whether or not attending Orthodox is a red flag or not; I don't know and I don't care. All I know is that to a person after attending for 10 months they are the most humble group of people united in one faith I have ever seen. No one is the least bit pushy; no one is banging on my door, no force, no "IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS YOU ARE DAMNED", no "IF YOU FALL AWAY YOU WILL FOREVER BE AN APOSTATE!!!!" It is the quietest confidence I have ever seen. Do I believe all the Orthodox claims-no I do not. Do I even know what all I believe, no I don't. I do believe in God; I do believe in Christ; I do believe in the Scriptures. And there is a whole heck of a lot that the Orthodox believe in core aspects of what it MEANS to be a Christian that align very well with what I've been taught in the LDS Church. The difference is that they seem to actually walk the walk of doing so. They don't need to CONVINCE others of their faith. In fact they don't want to convince others of it; they want their actions and the way that they worship to do the talking. They don't rely on their own strength. They quietly just say "this is the one true faith" and God will guide individuals path to it with or without their efforts. And you know it's a heck of a lot better than seeing Sister so-and-so get up on Sunday blather about her faith in Christ and how she is such a good Christian, all the while sending vitrolic texts to anyone who crosses her path. Am I an apostate for that. Sure, fine go ahead and say it. But at the end of the day; I know exactly who I'd rather be and who I'd rather my kids follow. And that's the man/woman who stands up and says "I have a lot of faults, I am not better than anyone else; please forgive my faults and my offenses as I work through God's grace to overcome my own sinful passions that are known and unknown". I'd rather those individuals be the leaders I look up to and the leaders my kids look up to rather than this horrific, well you don't follow the YW president, you don't follow the Bishop, you are an apostate and an unbeliever because you didn't "follow the leader". All I see when I see a response like the above. Someone who isn't confident in their own position and feels the need to invalid any experience that isn't "faith promoting". You know what; the Orthodox don't need that; in fact they bring up individuals or Bishops faults. Such and such Bishop was teaching things that were heretical and saying it was appropriate to do xyz and that wasn't in line with the Scriptures . . . so you know what the congregation did. They locked the doors, prevented him from entering and asked the Patriarch for a new Bishop. Problem solved. In other words, they openly admit their leaders have fault and don't expect everyone to fall in line lock step just because the leader said so. It's a whole lot healthier than "oh my goodness you opposed in Ward Conference-you must now be run out of town!!!"

Thank you sir.

I very much appreciate your comment. I very much wanted to keep fighting and to not allow the ward or stake to kick me/us out. However, there came a moment when I looked around and saw the emotional and spiritual damage that was being done and realized that if I kept going the damage was going to be even greater. My oldest son currently waffles between believing in God and not. My daughter-the one who was so horribly treated has pretty much recovered. It has taken 10 months. For the first couple of months I took a temperature asking everyone how they felt about going to Church (any Church!) on Sunday on a scale 1-10. For the first bit, it was -1, -3, -2, 0. Thankfully, over time it recovered and the last time it was 7, 8, 9.

Oh we found out. There is more to this story that I am currently telling. My wife was going into the young woman's class to observe what was being taught to our daughter. Observe. Because she said it is my right as a mother to sit in this class and observe what is being taught to my daughter on Sunday at Church, the YW President and YW Counselor verbally berated her multiple times in front of the other YW. When she did not relent; the YW President, in the presence of the YW Stake President in the room with the other young women stood up, said my wife was making everyone uncomfortable and all the young women who wished to leave the room should get up and walk out. The YW President with 8-9 other young women, stood up and walked out of the room, leaving my wife and our daughter and one/two other YW in the room. When the other YW came back one of them told my daughter "just so you know, this isn't about you". My daughter cried multiple times during these episodes. I talked to the Bishop about this. He was unwilling to listen to our concerns of what was being taught. He wanted my wife to immediately stop going in. To his credit, he said he would start observing the class himself every Sunday. So that was okay. Unfortunately due to this toxic behavior, my daughter wanted nothing to do with this class and we stopped going on the Sundays of youth classes. This went on for several months. A new YW councilor was called and she reached out to us and so we decided that maybe we should give it another go. The Bishop by this time had stopped going into the YW classes. The idea and plan was-well if the toxicity has dropped and the leaders can at least be civil with my wife and at least attempt to have an olive leaf with repeated action than maybe we can feel comfortable. We expressed to the Bishop multiple times-we want and desire to feel comfortable with the YW president; we aren't there, help us get there. So we attended the next Sunday with the YW President; it was really nice that Sunday. The YW president had a very nice presentation laid out of healing and all the kids and everyone knelt down said a prayer on Sunday to help heal the individuals (my wife present, my daughter). It was really good. We thought, okay, this is a great step-let's keep going down this route and it will be good. My wife then attended the YW activity on Wed. again observe & help out if needed. All good. On the way home, she received an unsolicited text from the YW councilor who had attended that evening telling my wife she was: "the devil in sheep's clothing" "makes her want to vomit" "the only problem in her life for the last 9 months" "ruined a special place for our daughter" "if we don't like the doctrine they are teaching she should find another church" (my wife had brought up a concern to the YW President about the YW wearing booty shorts & gym shorts to YW activities). We showed the text to the Bishop and his response was a smirk (effectively like a, well you deserved it). There was absolutely 0 "oh that's horrible, I'm sorry, that should never happen". It was well everyone is dealing with stuff in their life. The next Sunday was Ward Conference. I had told the Bishop previously that this was a problem and that I nor my wife could in good conscience sustain the YW Presidency. It is completely inappropriate for a leader of youth to say such vile things to a parent of youth. That was the entire reasoning for the not sustaining (we had sustained previously). It was actually quite hilarious what happened during the sustainings for WC. Ward Conference comes and let's just say it went down like a lead balloon. It is my recollection that for Ward Conference they sustain all the auxiliaries by group. RS, then SS, then YW, then etc. etc. etc. It's possible that protocol has changed officially; however for this sustaining they lumped all the groups together; including the Bishopric IIRC. We only wanted to oppose the YW presidency-so b/c they lumped them all together I literally had to stand and verbally say "only the YW Presidency". We had no intention of opposing the Bishop nor anyone else. The SP was there and effectively from the pulpit read us the riot act for opposing (he didn't call us out by name-but it was pretty obvious who the message was directed to). Normally they pull people aside immediately; we weren't talked to by the Bishop until that Thursday. We had one or two evening discussions with the Bishop and he point blank told my wife that if she ever step foot in a YW activity again without being invited in-he would issue a verbal warning and then would obtain a restraining order on my wife. That was the last time my wife step foot in an LDS church. During any of these discussion, no one pointed to any unChristian behavior that my wife had done, any foul words, any foul actions (there were none). She was simply observing . . .being present. Still 10 months later it boggles my mind what happened. And this isn't some liberal bastian. It is a rural area in one of the rubiest of red conservative states in the US.

I very much appreciate this comment. I am not quite sure why I am posting to an LDS forum. I think if this type of response had been the response given to myself and my family (wife + 5 kids) it is possible that we would still be attending LDS. I understand the desire to circle the wagons when a perceived threat from the inside occurs. I also understand the desire to discard or discount what others say either in-person or on the internet b/c so many people lie these days...or at the very least bend the truth to the version that will appear most sympathetic in others eyes. Ultimately however, religion or worship should be a place of solace, a place of refugee, a place where one can worship God who has given us so much, a place to lay upon the alter our sins, our flaws, our frailties, humbly ask for forgiveness from God that he will have mercy on us; have mercy on those around us. I think ultimately the distractions locally from being able to do so became too much; too great. Those distractions included a celebration of this type of behavior rather than a remorse and repentance of it. My wife taking my daughter to a youth activity at a leaders home and seeing "Love conqueers all", plastered with rainbow signs. My daughter going to a Church girls camp with a transgender cabin. Taking my son to a Church youth dance and seeing a homosexual young woman ask another heterosexual young woman to slow dance; reporting to the Stake Young Womans President this incident and being told-yes indeed you saw exactly what you think you saw. My wife being berated, yelled, verbally assaulted (through word and text) for silently sitting in the young woman's class to observe what is being taught after the above incidents. Reporting these things to the Stake President and receiving no acknowledgment that this should not be happening and is a problem. The Stake President's Councilor and his wife bearing testimony in every Stake Conference about how much they love and accept their trans . . .now lesbian daughter and it's so great that the ward is so accepting of their daughter/son/child---I don't know I get confused about it all. In an attempt to go to another ward, finding out that the next ward over has given a baby blessing in front of the entire congregation to a non-member mom (I guess . . . who knows she may be a member) and her lesbian live-in "married" spouse. They have two older kids who regularly attend youth activities. I can only imagine the conversations that go on between teenage kids of two live-in "moms" and the other youth. In the end, it all became way, way too much. Way too much distraction, way too much noise, way too much chaos, way too much toxicity that took away from the very simple desire to attend Church with my wife and our kids so that I and them can worship God; beg forgiveness for our mistakes and not have the wickedness of the world shoved down our throats at every step in Church. So we left. 30+ years, 2 returned missionaries, married in the Temple with 5 kids. In all those years, the only times we missed Church was due to illness. We now attend an Orthodox parish locally and it is very, very good for our souls. None of this is remotely a problem. There is no mention of rainbow this or rainbow that. No one would dare think of "coming out" to the parish. Our older children, instead of FSY or girls camp with transgender cabins went to an Orthodox summer camp last year. When we asked the question of is openly homosexual youth a problem to the camp director, the question was received more in a spirit of confusion-as in we don't understand what your question is or really why you would be asking it; it's just not a problem. My son is attending a Orthodox winter camp and I have absolutely no concerns. The past summer for the Orthodox summer camp, they spent the entire week studying Christ's greatest sermon-the Beatitudes. Again, thank you very much for your comment; I wish this was the response that had been modeled all those months ago.

A very wise statement.

I have much more of an inclination to believe this type of stuff as this is now at least the third/fourth openly homosexual LDS missionary. Given the similarity in the telling's of these stories (i.e. the necessity of being open about one's sexual preferences), I would wager that there is a pretty common thread between all such openly homosexual missionaries. While that is a miniscule number, it appears that this is acceptable behavior/thinking/attitude for LDS missionaries. At least, I have not seen any authority figures saying that this is unbecoming of a missionary. I feel sadness that this is becoming common-place. https://www.iheart.com/podcast/256-listen-learn-love-hosted-b-31119518/episode/episode-570-elder-shane-carpenter-gay-102697499/ https://www.iheart.com/podcast/256-listen-learn-love-hosted-b-31119518/episode/episode-574-nathan-mclaughlin-gay-latter-day-103238667/ https://www.facebook.com/bryce.garvey.18

It is certainly possible that it is an amalgamation of stories. I do not think has much relevance to the conversation. He claims these are his real experiences and is currently as worthy missionary serving his mission. Unless one is claiming that this individual is actually not a missionary; I have no reason to doubt his story. And given that there have been multiple instances of openly homosexual missionaries who have openly come out while as a missionary and/or openly discussed their experiences as openly homosexual missionaries, it is a believable story.

I feel more sadness that this is where our society and where LDS culture is at than anything. Sexual/Romantic desire for the same-sex appears to be acceptable in LDS culture. The only thing prohibited appears to be same-sex sexual activities. I can not see how acceptance of that won't be far behind. Before every action is thought of the action and acceptance of the action as acceptable. I find it sad that the culture puts parents into a double-bind hostage situation. If a parent doesn't allow a child to "be who they are" and embrace and celebrate their every action, then that must mean that those parents are horrible. I believe parents have been 100% totally emasculated on this issue and completely enslaved to the whims of immature children and society on this issue. They are so afraid of "doing the wrong" thing, that the only acceptable thing is for them to either a) say nothing or b) actively encourage it. In no other issue, is this the case. If a child was doing drugs, hanging out with the wrong crowd, stealing, swearing, etc. parents would feel empowered to correct. In this case, they have self-defeated themselves. ------------- "On the other hand, as I read the essay, I considered how I would feel and how I would respond if he had been my son. I concluded I would probably have responded as his parents did, because what else am I supposed to do? Cut my beloved child off? Tell him I think he's horrid? Withdraw from him and leave him to his problems? I see no other choice than to hold him, kiss him, and tell him that I love him and admire his wonderful qualities that I have enjoyed since he was born. And if he began following the path that this young man seems to be taking, what am I to do then? If I have misgivings about what he's doing, maybe I tell him if he asks my opinion." -------------- There are easy and simple steps to take as a parent in this case. Anyone who has ever had teenagers knows that the likelihood that if a teenager does not get exactly what they want they will throw a fit is a distinct possibility. I do not believe in indulging such behavior and being held hostage to the whims of a fickle child. ------------- I walk down the stairs, things like this usually would have brought stinging anxiety and debilitating fear, but as I walked down the stairs I felt confident and strong. I saw my parents and stopped while still on the stairs. "I'm coming out right now, do you two want to be in the video?" Last time we had talked they were still hesitant about me coming out. "Yup! Do you want me to get my tripod for your phone?" My dad said immediately "Uh, yes I would, thanks." No awkward pause or hesitation. Just immediate support. I sat on the couch in between my mom and my dad. My phone in the tripod with all of us on screen. As I leaned forward to hit record, I looked back at my parents. They both looked at me and smiled. I scanned their faces for just a moment looking for any sign of fear or hesitation, there was none. It seems they had been prepared for this moment just as much as I had. My confidence still stood strong, I felt no fear, I felt still. I took a deep breath in, and pushed the record button on the screen. I felt my dad's hand rest on my shoulder. And then I came out. The video was posted to Instagram, Facebook, and Tik Tok. Afterwards me and my parents sat and talked. My mom made the comment that she should have acted surprised when I said I was gay in the video. We laughed, I had a very large sign of relief, then we watched some TV. I fell asleep on the couch that night, as my mom was playing with my hair. The moment seemed surreal, it wasn't too long ago where we had a similar moment. But this time there was no fear, no collapsing realities, and no hysterical panic attacks. --------------------- "Thompson, are you okay? You know if you ever want to tell me anything that I'm always willing to listen." He glanced at me. "Yea actually, I have been wanting to tell you something for a while now." I felt my heart beat radiate through every part of my body. Now was the moment, something was finally going to happen. "Yea?" I softly responded "You know our friend Jamie?" Jamie… Why was he mentioning her right now? "I think I like her." I felt cold water thrown on my face. "I didn't know I liked her until she started dating Jason." He continued. I looked out the window and felt tears crawl up my throat and into my eyes. I battled them down and looked back at him. He was in visible distress about his situation. I couldn't let him know what I was feeling, or how I had been feeling. "How do you feel about that?" I asked with shattered confidence. He went on to express feelings of confusion and frustration. "Don't you just hate it when the person you like so much likes someone else?" He asked "How ironic" I thought to myself. About ten seconds later the back car door opened. Dennis got in, and there was a long awkward silence as we drove to Toppers. Everyone was uncomfortable, even Dennis. He could tell something had happened, but he chose not to resurface whatever had just happened with the both of us. So we sat in silence. Two of us in heartache, one of us in confusion. Not long after that I was talking with Jamie, she asked if I was interested in anyone at that time. I said I was, she leaned in and gave me a look expecting an answer. I nodded towards Thompson. "Ooo!! That's so cute, do you know if he's gay?" She asked excitedly " I don't think he is." "Cmon! Why do you say that? You two would be so cute together." "Haha I don't know, it's just a hunch he's not." I ended the conversation there. Regardless of if he liked me or not, he was one of my very best friends. And the fact that he didn't see our relationship in a romantic sense stung for a bit, but that wasn't going to make me end our friendship. I had gotten to know him so well, and I was grateful for our relationship. Whether it was romantic or not. He was one of my best friends, and I intended to keep it that way from that point forward. ---------------------- I see a child who is in severe need of mentoring, correction, discipline, self-control, and rather then self-gratification, self-emptying love. I think it is a travesty to allow a young man to go on a mission who previously has indulged in romantic fantasies with the same-sex and believes those are acceptable fantasies to indulge in. I do not believe that sending such a young man on a mission to live with another single young man 24-7, to sleep in the same room, to be more closely tied to the hip to another young man than one is in marriage is wise nor healthy for the young man in question nor for any other young man who is paired with him. I think it potentially (in the best case scenario) sets the young man in question up for heartache and disappointment as the fantasy of a romantic interest in a companion potentially takes hold and is not reciprocated. And in the worst case, that romantic interest IS reciprocated and two young men end up going down deeply forbidden paths. I understand if the LDS of today do not see things in this manner; I'm old and tired of what this world has become.

I am curious as to what the forum's opinion is on this type of belief system and behavior from an active missionary. This is public and the individual in question is okay with the material being shared. As this was posted with the following on a public forum: Howdy Friends! This is a Google photo album I've been working on for a bit now. I hope you all enjoy it! Feel free to add any LGBTQ inspiring/uplifting/funny/comforting/Christian content! Feel free to send it to anyone you know as well. https://photos.app.goo.gl/B2evPvx6Z75r5eui7 Also, here's a bit of my story. I'm not expecting all of you to read it, but if someone needs to read some relatable content you can take a peek! https://docs.google.com/.../1fl1zLJ81Lf2I676m3tBA.../edit... God loves all of you! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fl1zLJ81Lf2I676m3tBAd7t8ypwVROekDMqg20bffvc/edit?fbclid=IwAR3bQgXfeiFmCN3L35TnP1Cse-zrjnB31VnjJ8GhYT_YWNluuW0n7xCUymk

Yes, exactly. The atheists in this country have the LUXURY of being atheist. What do I mean by that? They are riding off the coattails of Christian society and extracting out value structures that are found in Christianity. Without an overriding base moral system to generate their value system from . . .they are listless. This is evident as other cultures across the world currently and throughout history have not and do not have the same moral structure as the West. The Chinese most certainly do not. They locked thousands into apartment complexes, welded buildings shut and people jumped to death. The moral framework that allowed them to do that to their people is a fundamentally different moral structure than a Christian framework. The biggest problem with atheists in the west and this current secular society is that it takes some Christian values without Christ. Those fundamental values simply do not operate, or work long-term without a belief in a Savior.

That is good . . .but there is a flaw. You are godless; so HOW do you know what "working on yourself" and "improvement" really is. In other words, how do you know that the goals you set for working on yourself are really good? Maybe they are bad? Without a fundamental moral basis, one cannot know which values are good and which are bad.

Maybe they will resent or maybe they won't. The concept that a parent should be worried about what FEELINGS their child will have in the FUTURE regarding their raising of them is a fool's game. Why? Because it is unknowable. A brat child that says "I hate you!!!" to mom at age 15 may at age 25 apologize or at age 25 may be even more spoiled. It is one of the flaws in modern society-parents give more heed to a child's feelings than to doing what is right. Feelings are fickle, they come and go and they are not the right basis upon which to form a stable life. Learning how to control our feelings is a process of a lifetime. However, given that I know that feelings are fickle, if a child yells "I hate you!!!", it's more a . . okay . . . if I were an immature teenager I'd probably feel the same way . . .so I understand and I'm not going to allow those feelings to deter how I raise you. Instilling those values is all a matter of balance at the right age. For example, we go to Church. That is just what we do as a family-I don't care if you do not like going to Church, as a family we go to Church, end of story. Now, as a child gets older and if the child doesn't want to go to extra Church activities-okay I won't force going to this camp or that camp or this activity or that activity. I'll encourage it-but I'm not going to make a child go to YW activities. You will however go to Church on Sunday. I would never "force" or "coerce" a child to serve a mission. You are 18, you make your own decision about it. So "bringing the hammer down" it just depends on what hammer needs to be brought down, when and where and how much. Raising a child in fact isn't so much about "bringing the hammer down"-it's about having the proper vision for the values you want to instill and then making modifications, adjustments, discipline when needed, etc. to instill those values. I call bull-dookie (can I use that word MODS???) on queer kids not getting enough love at home. That's a nice story but false. More likely it's queer kid says "mom/dad you must address me as Dragon Lord"; parent: "no, that's ridiculous". Queer kid goes boo hooing to anyone who will give them an ear . . ."mom and dad HATE me!!!!" It's just a symptom of spoiled rotten kids that's all and spoiled rotten kids love to play the victim, love to claim "nooooobooooody looooovess meeeee" . . .why? Because they are used to getting their way. And when mom/dad say no to this, they throw a fit and there is a ready made "community" of a bunch of other spoiled rotten individuals waiting to tell them "we love you MORE than your evil parents". Ever watch the movie "Inception"? The man's wife dies b/c he put an idea into her head that grew and grew and grew. That is what is happening to children. Ideas are put into their head, primarily b/c yes they have access to the internet. . . and those ideas grow and grow and grow. ESPECIALLY when there is a ready-made community who "affirms" them, calls them "brave", etc. and feeds their childish selfishness. It is easy to prove that 30 years ago this was not a thing. Very accurate companies have done polling on this for many years and the number of children identifying as LGBTQ+ has skyrocketed over the last 10 years. The other fatal logical flaw in the LGBTQ+ group is the idea that "if we don't affirm these kids they will commit suicide!!!!!" Okay sure; let's go with that. So given that society was much, much less affirming 30 years ago, we would expect to see 1000s upon 1000s of dead teenagers by suicide b/c they weren't "affirmed". . . ..except we don't . . .and we see the OPPOSITE happening. MORE teen suicides as society has become more accepting not LESS. The idea that there is any real measure of anti-LGBTQ+ bigotry is delusional. Yes, so much anti-LGBTQ+ bigotry when half the companies in the Western Hemisphere for the whole month of June have rainbow colors . . .when people get fired for not "affirming". Come on man . . .that is just so incredibly delusional. But that is what the LGBTQ+ does . . .play the victim . . .nothing is ever good enough for them and if normal people don't acquiesce they will kill themselves, will kill you, will fire you, will dox you, etc. etc. etc. They are nothing but a bunch of terrorists.

Well yes; once a child is grown the role of the parent moves into more of a "give advice when consulted" role. The problem becomes that too many parents put the cart before the horse. They switch to the "give advice when consulted" role at age 10 . . .instead of age 18. Ideally the process is a gradual one. A child at 10 has no real concept of when it would be appropriate to ask for advice, while at age 18 the child wants absolutely 0 advice and wants to do everything one his own. If things have proceeded relatively well, by the time the child is mid-late 20s he'll come around and realize . . .oh yeah . . .maybe mom and dad actually did know something . . .not everything . . . but they were a heck of a lot wiser than I gave them credit for. LGBTQ+ junk vastly formed during the childhood years while the child is under one's roof. In those instances it is the same as with drug use, alcohol, porn, etc. If a 15 year old said "mom, dad, I'm going to look at porn all day long, and you just have to accept me and if you don't you are bigoted evil people", no sane parent would say "yeah you are right-we will do nothing and just let you watch porn all day long.". It's the same with LGBTQ+. It doesn't just appear out of no-where. It is something that is created, by small measures. Just like any vice is created. A child does not go from 0 porn to watching naked people have sex. It goes by degrees... first swimsuit magazines, lingerie magazines, then maybe youtube videos, step by step by step . . until the full fruit of that path is born. Parents have a real challenge these days to properly train their children in sexual matters and sadly most parents have abrogated their responsibility to someone else rather than properly teach their children right thinking, right feeling, and right acting with sexual things.