Jonathon

Before this thread dies completely, as it seems to be headed that way, I wanted to thank you all for your posts! I have found many of the insights/comments very helpful. On a side note, I will be attending an LDS Church tomorrow (stake conference) for the first time in YEARS. I am looking forward to it. Take care.

Wow, this is incredible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you so much for sharing.

I just wanted to let you all know that I have begun a serious re-read of the Book of Mormon, and I am finding myself unexpectedly drawn back to it in a way that I was not expecting. I did not grow up in the Church, but received my first copy of the BoM when I was 9 years old. I was fascinated by religion at that age, and struck up a friendship on my swim team with an LDS kid. I do not remember his name, but will never forget his face or the Spirit with which he gave me that book. I had not thought about this first experience with the book for MANY years. What an interesting spiritual journey... and life... this has been. Hope everyone is doing well, and that you have a great weekend.

Bert10 said the following: Is it safe to say that the burning in the bosom that one receives as a testimony to its truthfulness is the same Spirit of Prophecy that testifies of Jesus spoken about in Revelation? Mailis said the following: I appreciate you sharing this. I recall being a child and being fascinated and even emotionally impacted by Jesus Christ as Savior. However, when I began to understand the more "traditional" Christian understanding of "original sin," I immediately revolted against it. However, as I entered adulthood, I slowly began to read theologians such as Augustine of Hippo, who give significant efforts toward proving the utter depravity of humanity, even in the form of a child. In a far more eloquent manner then I will ever be able to, he would describe the tantrums of a child and expose this as evidence of original sin. I began to align my thinking with his, and thus came to understand the Atonement as being that act wherein the wrath of God was unleashed on His son in our place so that we are no longer "children of wrath" but "children of God." Ephesians 2:1-10 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. I understand the LDS doctrine of continuing revelation. I also am aware that any verses of scripture need to be taken in context of the whole. However, Paul is writing to first century members of the Church in Ephesus, presumably before the Great Apostasy. Was Paul wrong in telling these first century Christians that they were by nature children of wrath before being quickened (made alive) through faith in Christ? If children do not inherit the iniquity of their fathers, then why would Paul use such terms? If one receives a testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, and therefore the Prophet Joseph Smith, I understand that the belief and understanding of LDS official doctrine must then follow. Nevertheless, I am wondering how Joseph Smith, and subsequent Prophets of the Church, interpret these and similar verses in light of the restoration? Please note that I am requesting official church doctrine here, so as to avoid any accusation of trying to bend things through human philosophy sprinkled with a few scriptures, as was mentioned in an earlier post. Along similar lines, Puf said: So in light of my question above, perhaps "children of wrath" comes by our free agency wherein everyone, save Jesus, will eventually commit sin and therefore require the law of justice and then mercy as you wrote about? However, I am still perplexed as to why Paul would use the words, "by nature." Thanks for the recommendation on the first dozen chapters of Alma and the last half of the book of Mosiah. I know where to begin my Book of Mormon reading today! :) Puf also said: Thanks for these comments. They lead me down a bunny trail. So please indulge me in a sidebar... :) John Piper, noted Protestant Theologian recently wrote an article about Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria in the early fourth century. Toward the end of the article, he mentions something that Athanasius wrote on "human deification," or glory. I was startled to read a Baptist Pastor expound on this concept, particularly as I recalled how familiar this was to LDS doctrine. Nevertheless, Athanasius was known to be one of the grand contenders against the interpretation of doctrinal heresy at that time. Here is a sample of what John Piper says: The full article is here - Contending for Our All :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library Back to my perplexity with Paul's statement in Ephesians... And lest you think I am straying too far off course from LDS official teaching, I did find an article by Jeffrey R. Holland on the Atonement that I still need to fully digest. As I re-read and ponder on this article, I may find some of the answers to the questions posed above. Gospel Link Thanks to rameumpton for the following: I would wholeheartedly agree with you on this! Thanks for bringing it back to the basics in such a respectful way. :) I look forward to reading continued thoughts on intelligence as posed by vanhin in his question to puf. Vanhin said the following: I wanted to simply say THANKS for such a candid response to this question. It certainly gave me pause. I began to wonder how useful it is to delve too deeply into speculation apart from what is clearly revealed and taught by current Church authorities who, assuming that the Church is true, speak under the inspiration and clarity of the Holy Ghost. Regards, Jonathon

Good morning. There are some great responses here, and I look forward to responding when I have more time. Thanks to all (bert, puff, a-train, mailis) for your responses. I will respond in detail to your posts when I have more time. Also, thank you JLFuller for the LDS apologetics links. I will check them out. I wanted to quickly respond to one comment. MyDogSkip said: Jonathon...With all due respect...studying Protestant Theology when seeking answers to LDS Doctrine...is like studying Farsi..when you really want to learn Mandarin. Line upon line....Precept upon precept...The answers you're looking for come from the Restoration...not the philosophies of man...mingled with scripture. I recently heard a talk from a General Authority about members using the resources of "new media" to share their faith and testify to the truthfulness of the gospel. Is not participation in a thread like this part of that "new media" of sharing Restoration gospel truths? Just as a General Authority over conference said that Church members can not and will not compromise doctrine, I can not and will not compromise my God-given curiosity over the nature of spiritual matters. I have tried to make it abundantly clear that my participation in this thread has no ulterior motive. I am genuinely seeking intelligent conversation on spiritual matters that have been the framework of my thought and belief since I was a child. Indeed, had I reconciled some of these things as a 15 year old who joined the LDS Church, and later left at 19, perhaps I would not need to be participating on a forum like this to seek answers and be pointed to more official sources where these answers are found. Therefore, I will not simply turn off a switch in my mind and not ask the questions that are based upon convictions that I have held for many years that, I am willing to admit, might be misguided. I sincerely appreciate those who have taken these questions seriously, and have given me ample to "chew on" as I am in this process. So, with all due respect, this is not as simple as "studying Farsi when you really want to learn Mandarin." Delving into Protestant Theology and thought over the last eight years has been out of a sincere desire for truth, and has ultimately led to genuine convictions. I realize this may be difficult for some to grasp, particularly since I was once a member of the Church, albeit a very brief time in my adolescence. It is not a matter of "studying Farsi," but living, walking, breathing, and talking Farsi for most of my life. In order to learn Mandarin, I must understand how the grammar and structure of the Farsi language relate to Mandarin, a language I barely scratched the surface of many years ago. Jon

I would like to chime in and say that I have observed the following in these threads: 1) Some very good discussion and support for someone who has used their free agency to choose a different path, albeit one that a majority who have posted would not choose. 2) A lot of, what I can only describe as, "ping pong." Ping - Our church does things this way! Pong - Well my church does it this way! Ping - Your denomination of churches don't do it that way! Pong - Yes we do! Ping - I haven't seen you do it that way. I think we do it better! Ok, Ok... So these words were not used exactly, but this is how this thread has left me feeling. Ping, Pong, Ping, Pong. LDS Folks: As I'm sure you are well aware, there are MANY churches and denominations of churches with members who feel that their church is the most perfect and that they do things the right and scriptural way. I have most recently been a part of a denomination of churches that resemble LDS Church culture in MANY ways. So much so that it has, after almost ten years OUT of the church, contributed to my re-investigation of the LDS Church. There is a focus on family, church service, and making church life central TO life. In fact, many people in this group of churches won't even move cities without consulting with their local pastor/bishop, even if it is for a job promotion. However, just because another church does or does not do things the "LDS way" does not make it true, or for that matter, false. Truth will stand the test of culture, diverse doctrine, and time. God is the author of truth. If I understand correctly, according to the LDS Church, the Holy Ghost will give an assurance of THE truth as a person seeks the Lord through prayer, scripture study, etc., So what is the point in comparing your culture (the way you do things) as superior to another church? As an "outsider looking in," I just don't see the fruit of this ping pong match. Likewise to those that are not Latter-day Saints: How has it become so easy to assume that the LDS know nothing about other Christian "ways of life" and doctrine? As one who claims that your final authority rests on Christ, should not your communication be focused ON Christ and not on bringing other people down for not "understanding" your culture or system of belief? It just seems we are focusing on so many peripherals here. I think both the LDS and evangelical Christians will agree that Jesus Christ is the foundation of faith. Therefore, let the light of Christ shine as we witness of Christ, even in our forum communications! Stephen Covey (LDS incidentally) said something I love, and I think is very wise and Christ-like: Seek first to understand and then to be understood! If we could all really grasp that concept, we would not be as threatened when someone leaves our fold, nor be as defensive, when someone in the fold doesn't seem to grasp why we have left. It does not mean that we lose our convictions, stop our prayers, or compromise. It simply means we avoid unfruitful judgment. Jonathon

HomeAgain, I am glad you have come to peace with your decision. Thanks a million for the additional information. There was definitely something unique about this conference. Regards, Jonathon

Fiona, Thank you.. It's amazing how far a little empathy goes. Just reading your response was a great encouragement. Glad to know I'm not the only one who has wrestled through these things. Peace to you.

Thank you all for the kind responses. Misshalfway, since you requested, I will be sending you my full story via private message. It is "living document" as my journey has not quite ended, as you know! Peace

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. Traveler - I appreciate the recommendation of your thread. I'll check it out. tomk - I read the article you sent me by Jeffrey R. Holland. It was a breath of fresh air to read such clear, unambiguous, statements on the nature of the LDS doctrine of the Godhead. He wrote something that aroused my curiousity: I testify that He had power over death because He was divine but that He willingly subjected Himself to death for our sake because for a period of time He was also mortal. I declare that in His willing submission to death He took upon Himself the sins of the world, paying an infinite price for every sorrow and sickness, every heartache and unhappiness from Adam to the end of the world. In doing so He conquered both the grave physically and hell spiritually and set the human family free. Is there an article by a General Authority that you recommend with greater exposition on the Atonement? As I have been studying the Catholic/Protestant view of the Atonement, I came to believe the following: Man is inherently sinful. Though the Old Testament speaks of righteousness vs. wickedness, I came to believe that it is only God who makes a person righteous. No effort of their own can satisfy a pure, holy, God because every human effort is tainted with sin. Because of this, Jesus Christ was sent to the world to be the propitiation (substitution) for the due penalty of our sin. That due penalty being death and eternal separation from God. As such, Jesus Christ became the only pure and completely righteous being to ever live, and we are thus justified by our faith in His righteousness alone. Because any efforts of our own self-righteousness are tainted by sin, we are, therefore, unable to ever become righteous enough, thus the need for the Savior's sacrifice on the cross. We make efforts toward living holy lives, but we realize that our merits of righteousness will never be accepted by God because they were already accepted by God at His Atonement. Thank you for allowing me to voice how I have come to understand the necessity of the Atonement over the last few years. I wrote that so that you, more scholarly LDS, can find statements that are perhaps completely contradictory or aligned with LDS doctrine. Anyone who is willing, please feel free to respond with your thoughts on what my views of the Atonement have been. (Or point me in the direction of a good article written by a GA!) Puf_the_majic_dragon - Thank you so much for your lengthy, clear, and thoughtful response. Thank you for correcting me on my misunderstanding of baptism for the dead and its correlation to sharing the message of the Restored gospel to those in Spirit Prison. I appreciate your affirmation of the doctrine set forth by Joseph Smith of the Father's own mortal probation. This, then, leads to my earlier question: Does Heavenly Father have a Heavenly Father? Are there Church documents that talk in more detail about Heavenly Father's mortal probation? Thank you for breaking down the Nicene Creed and contrasting it with LDS views. I am sure you have heard many Protestant/Evangelical and even Catholics question you on John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. I have believed that Jesus Christ is the Word, and thus has been with the Father in eternity since time immemorial. However, LDS doctrine clearly teaches that He was born literally of the Father. Can you expound on this? Oh, and majic_dragon, maybe they got "quick and the dead" from Moroni 10:34. :) a-train - Thanks for the clarification on Trinitarianism, Modalism, and Mormonism's understanding of the Unity of the Godhead. I have believed each one of these "isms" at some point in my past, however, when I was a member of the Church in my high school years, I certainly hadn't studied these out. I wonder if I am coming "full circle..." Hope you all are having a swell night. Jon

Good afternoon! I hope you all are well. For those of you who have not read the recent thread I began on re-baptism, I was a member of the Church during my high school years, but a variety of circumstances ultimately led to my resignation. I am nearly 28 years old, and am in the process of re-investigating the Church. I understand that according to LDS thought, a testimony of the Book of Mormon, and therefore the veracity of the Church, is given through the Holy Ghost as a burning in the bosom. I have committed to re-read the Book of Mormon, and will apply this in my prayers. Nevertheless, over the last few years, I have done quite a bit of study on Protestant Systematic Theology and doctrine. I have a few questions that I am eager to hear an LDS explanation on. I know that one can have all the knowledge in the world and not have a testimony of the Spirit. However, I am hopeful that this thread can be used of the Spirit to enlighten my understanding. I am headed off to dinner, and will pose a few additional doctrinal questions later. However, I would like to ask one that is pressing on me before I head out the door. From what I remember of LDS Theology, Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three separate beings with bodies. Those who are born into the earth have been sent here from the pre-existence for a mortal probation. We are, therefore, children of God, regardless of whether we are members of the Church. In order to "pass the test," return to Heavenly Father, and receive exaltation in eternity, we are given free agency to choose or reject the One True Church. For those who did not have the opportunity to hear the message of the restored gospel, the ordinance of baptisms for the dead have been instituted to preach this message to those who are in spirit prison. This is a summary of what I remember about the framework of the LDS gospel. Have I recapped correctly? If there are any errors, please let me know. I want to fully understand. My question, therefore, is this: According to this theology, Heavenly Father, who has a body of flesh and bone, must have also gone through a similar "mortal probation" at some point. Is this correct, or a false understanding? If this is the case, does Heavenly Father have a Heavenly Father? Or, is there only one Heavenly Father? There is a scripture in John 4:24 that says: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Through my studies of Protestant Theology, I have come to understand God as one Spirit, with three personalities manifested as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, the essence of God is beyond human comprehension. Nevertheless, it was because of God's love for us that He gave Jesus Christ to save the world. How is this scripture and this view of God as Spirit reconciled in LDS thought and doctrine? Thank you so much in advance for your responses. Please know that these questions are sincere, and with no ulterior motive. I really want to understand. All the best, Jonathon

Tubaloth, My story is long and complex. If you are interested in my story of religious experiences throughout my life, I would be more than happy to e-mail it to you. However, it probably wouldn't be appropriate to post on a public forum. I can simplify it by saying that I was raised in a home where there were lots of different religions, philosophies, and spiritual ideas thrown at me from a very early age. That combined with a father who, at the time, was very anti-Mormon and who I wanted to please plus a lot of emotional trauma in my home my senior year of high school is what lead to my resignation from the LDS Church. As far as my desire to return. I must say that I posted on this forum to seek your prayers. I can't say I am fully ready to take the steps of re-joining the Church at this time. However, over the years I have kept "tabs" on the Church by watching General Conference from time to time. This year I watched the entire conference, and was particularly moved by President Monson's talks. I will pray and seek our Father in Heaven for guidance. If it is His will for me to return and He confirms this through the Holy Ghost, I will return.

Greetings, I TiVod General Conference this weekend, and toward the end, during President Monson's last talk, he said the following: "My dear brothers and sisters, I love you, and I pray for you. Please, pray for me, and together we will reap the blessings our Heavenly Father has in store for each one of us. This is my prayer, my plea, as I add my testimony. This work is true. " As he spoke those words, I was overcome with emotion. I immediately thought of the scripture in St. Luke 22:31-32: And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen they bretheren. It is amazing that the Lord said these words to Peter before he denied the Lord three times, and yet said, "I have prayed for thee." As President Monson uttered his words in General Conference, I felt a pull toward the Church that I have not felt in years. I saw a man with strength of character, who in humility, requested prayer. And so, I would ask that you pray for me! I joined the Church when I was 15, but due to doctrinal differences and a family that strongly desired that I not be a part of the Church, I ended up resigning at 19 years old. I am nearly twenty-eight, and have spent the last nine years studying many different faiths, including pursuing full time vocational ministry. However, I am sensing a pull back toward the LDS Church that is very intense. Can anyone give me information on what the process is for someone who had been a member of the Church, was removed from Church records, and then has a desires to return? Will the individual be treated as a brand new investigator, receiving the missionary discussions, and being re-baptized? Has anyone here gone through this process?

Thank you. I will mull this over, and let you know if I have any further questions on the subject. Thanks for the speedy response. Jonathon

As I read through that chapter, the one verse that stood out to me was verse 10: Say unto the righteous that it is well with them; for they shall eat the fruit of their doings. Those that are called righteous because of Jesus Christ will eat good fruit, and will in turn, give good fruit to the world. By their fruits ye shall know them. I wish you all the best in your pursuits, and regardless of whether you receive the financial success you desire, know that your steps are ordered by the Lord because of the Lord.