DigitalShadow
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Posts posted by DigitalShadow
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Yes. This is what governments do. But in the history of the world, tell me how many have been successful? And I mean "for the people" kind of successful. How many have been free from power hungry agenda and corruption? And how have such law making efforts truly changed the hearts of the people to act from personal moral commitment rather than public fear?
Laws don't change hearts. They don't reform people. They simple keep the sheep within the gate and punish them when the go out.... and even on that score they often fail.
How many religions are free from corruption? How many "holy wars" have been waged throughout history? Yes, governments can be abused and corrupted just like any other institution, including religions, what is the point?
Do religions not also keep people in line with rewards and fear of punishment? Just because someone decides they want a happy afterlife doesn't mean they are any more reformed than someone who decides they don't want to go to jail again.
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I'm confused by your post, so I reread my old posts to see where I got defensive. Still confused, but never mind. If I came across as defensive somewhere, I apologize.
I read this as being defensive:
I have a question about the accusation of "hate". We, of the conservative leaning, are accused of hating all the time. We hate homosexuals. We hate liberals. We hate blacks. We hate abortionists. We hate sinners. On and on.
Unfortunately over the internet it is incredibly hard to tell intent without tone of voice, facial expression or gestures, so it was probably just a misunderstanding.
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Oh ok. I think I can see better what you are saying. Yes, the US is a religious country -- something that is sometimes problematic. I guess I am fuzzy with regards to your view. Are saying that belief in God leads to unrest and crimes against humanity or are you agreeing with me and speaking to human nature.
What I'm saying is that atheism doesn't lead to crimes or unrest any more than belief in God does. It is a part of human nature and generally unchanged with religious beliefs. The reason I brought up Scandinavia is that many people (probably even some here) believe that without religion society would completely fall apart and I recently found out that there is a very good example that says that it is not the case.
And I think the article is compelling, but I want to ask more questions about history and if there were any factors leading to the common atheist position. I know that in Germany, many can't believe in God because of the awful things they saw and experienced in the wars. I just think that it is impossible to determine that because one group appears happy that they truly are, and impossible to condemn other groups because they are religious and appear in a state of unrest. The US is religious. But I think the source of our problems is more related to our obedience to what we know is true. The success or failure of religion depends on first, the truthfulness of that particular message and second, on the choices of the people.
I think that the point of the book is not to attribute or condemn, but to challenge some of the "conventional wisdom" about society's relationship with religion. I'll probably end up buying the book at some point, you can borrow it when I'm done if you want :)
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Oh my goodness, no. I live out in the "mission field". I live with this all the time and I feel absolutely no defensiveness, as long as people aren't rude. I am thoroughly surprised if someone of another faith DOESN'T wonder this about us. What I don't understand is when other religions are offended that we claim to be the only true religion. Don't they feel the same about their religion? It doesn't offend me that the Catholics believe theirs is the one and only. Good for them! Atheists think we are wrong; we think they are wrong. Why be offended or defensive? I don't understand that at all.
It is the same reason you suddenly got so defensive about your conservatism even though I didn't even mention it. Sometimes it is just a natural reaction when you are accustomed to people attacking you for something.
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Just to clarify -- I didn't say those were your claims -- I said the claims of the researcher said that. I know that it's not a big number and it may not be significant when talking about the majority of the society there -- I just seem to think that if you're going to make research reliable, ALL aspects of a society need to be taken into play. Now having said that, the article was about what this researcher found and wrote in his book and not having read the book, it would be unfair to stand by this point of view.
Food for thought -- it did make me think and that's why I commented the way I commented.:)
Yeah, I reread your post and was going to go back and change mine but I figured it was probably too late.
I haven't read the book yet either, but I was thinking about buying it. To me, what is interesting is not the percentages of atheists or Christians or Mormons, but the way religion is culturally thought of and quite honestly until I read that article a few days ago I had no clue a place like that even exists.
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I read the article -- not convinced that it's because they are atheist that Scandanavians are the people they are. There are other countries that have lower crime rates and social problems than the US and Europe and they have Christianity. A sociology professor of mine always warned us to not believe everyone elses point of view. Anyone can do research and have their opinion confirmed.
I would be interested if this sociologist interviewed any of the 20,000 Scandanavian LDS that live in Sweden and Denmark.
By the end of 1990, the LDS Church had over 20,000 members in seven stakes and 119 wards and branches throughout Scandanavia, served by a Temple in Vasterhaminge, Sweden.
My sociology professor talked a lot about Sweden and Denmark and has visited there a lot -- he pointed out that if you like a Socialist Party kind of country, then you will probably like it there. He also pointed out that the same things that this other sociologist pointed out. It may work for some, but not me -- I don't want the legal use of drugs and prostitution where I live. Maybe if I was born and raised there I would have a different understanding. Our country has so many different cultures trying to live together, therein lies the difficulty.
P.S. My nephew served his mission in Sweden -- loved the people and had wonderful conversations with all. I remember him telling us how welcomed he felt. Maybe that's our problem here in America, we don't welcome other points of view.:)
I never claimed atheism is the only way for a society to thrive, just that it is possible for an atheist society (willing atheism, not forced) to thrive. The article was never meant to "convince" you of anything, it was merely food for thought. I don't fully agree with the politics of the country either, but it is interesting none the less.
Also, while 20,000 may sound like a big number keep in mind that it is only 0.13% of the population of those two countries. I don't see how that would be significant when talking about the majority of society there.
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Well, there is no doubt that I come from church land and you don't. I struggle though to see how that in and of itself is a determiner of whether or not my perspective is true or false. It speaks only to my culture, not the workings of my mind and conscience.
I'm not just talking about where specifically either of us grew up, I'm talking about the culture of this country in general. It has nothing to do with whether your perspective is true or false. All I'm saying is that if you grew up in somewhere like Scandinavia, you could very well be just as happy and thankful for your world view and IMHO the only reason you can't imagine it now is because of the culture here.
I mean are you only a robot produced from your experience?
I never said that. I do think that the environment around you can shape the way that you think, especially about religion, but of course you are still you and there is no telling exactly how external influences will change your outlook on things.
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I'm not being contentious, please understand that. You seem to be very defensive when it comes to being happy and being atheist. I'm just trying to understand. I accept your point of view, honest.
I love sociology -- it's helped me to understand that my way of doing things is not always the only way. Where is the 'area of the world that is mostly atheist'?:) (edit) sorry missed the article link, checking it out now.
I came from a religion that thought I was going to Hell -- that's why I gave up on religion for a while. I'm glad to have found the truth, is all I can say.:)
I can tell that you're not being contentious and I don't mind you asking at all. Let me ask you a question first though. Would you (or most people here) not feel defensive if someone asked "How can you possibly be happy and lead a good life if you are a Mormon?" I think it is a natural reaction when people claim that your world view is not only false, but unhealthy and impossible to be happy with.
I try not to get too defensive because I know it can lead to a lot of contention, but I do still want people to at least understand my viewpoint, and hopefully even respect it as I respect their viewpoint.
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BUT, with regards to the agnostic or atheist paradigms, I see them as very limited in terms of human progression. It appears that you all are very satisfied with what it does offer. I am just not sure that would satisfy all of us.
I know you disagree, but IMHO that is because you were raised in a society that teaches us that we need religion to satisfy us.
And.....to tell you the truth, I don't believe that people WITHOUT some sort of moral law, would always behave in a moral or happiness producing manner. I think that in general, mankind is pretty darn awful to each other and to the self. Not to mention our ever present ability to justify ourselves and lie ourselves into believing that corruption is happiness and taking care of number one brings joy.
That is why governments and sets of laws emerged. I would also like to point out that that ever present ability to justify ourselves is just as present whether you believe in a religion or not... how many people have been killed in God's name? (ironically a God that stated "though shalt not kill.")
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Everyone needs God and Jesus Christ to save them. I applaud you for being able to find reasons to live a good life and be kind to others, but you could find an even greater hope and motivation if you would choose to believe in God and learn of His plan. You assume this life is all there is to our existence, but what if you're wrong? Eternity is a long time.
Anyhow, sorry to take this thread off track a bit. :)
And what if you're wrong and are going to be sent to some other religion's Hell? As you say, eternity is a long time. No matter what religious beliefs you hold, the majority of the world disagrees with you.
Did you know there is even an area of the world that is mostly atheist? They seem to do quite well too. Not that I'd move there, but it is interesting from a sociological perspective and examining the question of whether religion is needed for a society to function and even thrive.
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Hehe, after I posted that, I wondered if you would ask...
Basically it takes away hope. Without belief in a higher saving power, how can anyone have hope for their own or for anyone else's eternal welfare? It also takes away motivation. There's no doubt that the hope of an eternal reward helps provide motivation to live a better life.
That all depends on your outlook, my friend. I assume that this mortal life is the only shot at existance we have, our only chance to feel or experience anything and so I savor every minute of it and make the most of my time here. I treat other people nicely because that is how I would want to be treated, no dogma or eternal reward necessary :)
Don't get me wrong, I've seen various religions help many people get their lives together and I am truly happy for them, but it is incorrect to assume that everyone needs religion to lead a good, fullfilling and happy life.
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If I refuse to vote for an atheists, does that automatically mean I dislike atheists?
I don't think it does.
I don't like atheism and what it does to people. But I can still like the people.
If I refuse to vote for a Mormon based solely on the fact that they are a Mormon it does that mean I dislike Mormons? No, but I would say it gives a strong indication.
Also, as I said before, that is not the only poll in the article I linked.
Out of curiousity, what is it that you think atheism does to people?
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Perhaps you are right about that. I don't know many atheists or spend a lot of time studying a day in the life.....
I guess I always knew about this poll and that when it came to a trusted position such as the presidency that there was some prejudice. But in other arenas, atheism sometimes seems fashionable if not popular. So, maybe what I am saying is thank you for opening my eyes a bit. I mean that for Godless too. I always enjoy posts that help me stretch my field of vision.
Here is my opinion of what is going on based on personal experience:
Before the internet became such a large part of people's lives, atheists were often more isolated, sometimes the only members of their family that feel that way and it was not easy to find other people who they can relate to because when you tell someone you are an atheist you will sometimes meet immediate hostility and usually at least subtle disdain.
Now that technology allows us to communicate with all kinds of people all over the world easier than you can communicate with your next door neighbor, atheists can connect and form communities like never before. There is definitely a growing atheist subculture in this country, but to call it popular or fashionable is a bit much in my opinion. It's not as if the atheist population is growing incredibly quickly, but atheists are now more comfortable with being who they are rather than hiding their lack of belief for fear of mobs lynching them.
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I'm one who is less likely (I didn't say never) to vote for an atheist. I've voted for people of many religions. I've voted for candidates of many different minorities.
The simple reason is that I prefer my civic leaders praying to God. I prefer that they have at least a semblance of Heavenly guidance as they lead my community, state or country. However, to be honest, I've only know the religious preferences of a very few. Since to us God-believers, God is VERY real, so this natually factors into the criteria we use. Is this bigotry? I'm not even picky as to how one views God, or what name they give Him. If they believe in a higher power, I can hope they are praying, and I can then hope their decisions are influenced in a Godly way. I honestly believe that God was instrumental in setting up this country (USA) and I believe, as our Founding Fathers did, that God's influence is vital to it's success and survival.
It's not the ONLY criteria, but one of many.
Am I bigoted if I prefer to vote for Republicans, or rather conservatives?
I have never had the choice in an election (presidential or otherwise) to vote for someone who shares my religious view and frankly think it is far less relevant (not completely irrelevant) than other qualities a candidate could have.
I don't think that people who said they would not vote for an otherwise well qualified atheist were being bigoted. The reason I brought it up was to demonstrate the dislike and to a large extent distrust of atheists in this country. There are other polls in the article I link that demonstrate this as well.
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Do the non-Mormons feel unwelcome here? I hope not. I haven't seen that, but I could be wrong. Again, I certainly hope not; that would be terrible. Generally LDS are usually the friendliest and most welcoming people I've known.
I have a question about the accusation of "hate". We, of the conservative leaning, are accused of hating all the time. We hate homosexuals. We hate liberals. We hate blacks. We hate abortionists. We hate sinners. On and on.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I DON'T HATE ANYONE. There are a few individuals I know personally that I don't care for, but hate? No.
Just because someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't mean they HATE you.
I have never felt unwelcome here and in general I agree that most LDS memers are generally very friendly and welcoming.
The only time that I mentioned "hate" was agreeing with the general tendency of societies to "hate" groups of minorities. This has been seen throughout history and I doubt it will be changing anytime soon. People in general are quick to find a scapegoat to blame all their problems on and that can quickly turn to blind hate which is passed on to children.
I am well aware that simply because someone doesn't agree doesn't mean they HATE, but I am also aware that there are some people who truly do HATE. I don't think anyone on this thread or even this forum in my recent memory has really expressed hate and I am not quick to accuse people of it, but it is certainly out there.
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I'm not shocked by that poll -- Atheists are a minority and when has there not been prejudice and bigotry when it comes to a minority?
BTW -- I hate it all!
Some minorities are hated more than others, but in general, sadly you are right.
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Except when half the world thinks you are of the devil. :) And in this sense, I think maybe our two groups suffer from the same prejudice.
Look.....rather than arguing over who has it "worse", perhaps we can just agree that humans struggle with other humans who see things differently, and as a result, we end up taking flack.
You know, I was thinking about the "unity of the faith" idea this morning. At its core, religion is about behavior..... hopefully altruistic/prosocial/and even sanctified behavior. Learning doesn't necessarily equal kindness. Maybe it is in our ability to coexist shouldn't be defined by the melting into the cyborg of philosophy, but rather living together in Love that is the true mark of unity. When each heart is refined and each dealing is a kind one. Perhaps that is our ultimate test of this earth life. Have we really learned to love. And perhaps that is why there are so many differences amongst us. What better circumstance is there for us to learn these vital lessons?
Half the world thinks our country in general is the devil. If the ultimate test in this life is learning to coexist, the vast majority of people are failing miserably.
I know that Mormons face discrimination and prejudice and I am not trying to belittle your trials, but I really think you underestimate the dislike in this country for atheists. Here are some interesting statistics from Gallup Polls. These are the percentages of people who would refuse to vote for "a generally well-qualified person for president" who had one of these characteristics:
Catholic: 4%
Black: 5%
Jewish: 6%
Baptist: 6%
Woman: 8%
Mormon: 17%
Muslim: 38%
Gay: 37%
Atheist: 48%
The rest of the article is an interesting read as well.
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Do you honestly believe that most LDS people haven't asked these questions?? Don't you think with all of the flack we experience that we would continue in our course without such vital questioning?
Sometimes I think DS that you greatly underestimate the LDS people and what it really takes to gain and maintain a testimony.
That really depends on where you live. Do you honestly think Mormons in Utah take as much or more flack for their religious beliefs than atheists in Utah?
Also, I wasn't directing that question at most LDS people, I was directing it at someone who questioned my parental ability based solely on my lack of religious belief (something which I've gotten quite a bit of in Utah, so forgive me if it is a sensitive topic). My point was that there are many other religious views out there and people hold them for a variety of reasons and that judging people based solely on their religion is wrong and if you don't like people making assumptions about you just because you're a Mormon, you shouldn't make assumptions about people just because they're not Mormon.
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Woot! (I don't care what anyone else says, *I* think you're a good egg!)
HiJolly
Yay! At least someone here likes me
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I want to vote twice!! (because *I'm* special!)
FIRST: I believe that all the diverse species we see today are related and a product of evolution
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Yup - I do!
SECOND: I believe that evolution is the tool by which God guided the creation of all species.
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Totally!
...and I totally despise ID theory. Not because I don't think God is involved in evolution, but because ID tries to sneak out from the Religion 'sandbox' and into the Science 'sandbox' without getting caught. Bad boy!!
God's influence, power, spirit, etc. is completely in and through all (ALL) creation. SATURATES it all. We just don't have the scientific tools to detect it, and I rather doubt that we ever will. Maybe someday.
HiJolly
There, I put in your second vote as mine :)
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I've asked myself that question many times. Then I remember all the evidences that I've received to its truthfulness. I remember the answers to my prayers; some have been miracles and undeniable. I look for the logic of the Gospel and logical, it is. I continue to discover new parts of the puzzle that fit in perfectly.
But a lot of it is simply good ol' faith. I choose to believe it because I am completely convinced after all these years, that my life is better with it.
I don't doubt that your life is better because of your belief and that you have personally experienced undeniable miracles confirming your belief, but I also don't doubt that other people have also had undeniable miracles supporting their own differing belief. That is why I say that religion is a personal choice because your personal experiences are the only things that can "prove" a religion to you and those experiences are different for different people.
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my viewpoint is Evolution happens thats a fact and I firmly believe it is capable of all Darwin and others since have supposed - however I don't believe it is how our particular group of humans and organisms on our planet now came into being.
-Charley
Interesting, I don't think I've ever heard it put like that before. Just to make sure I understand your viewpoint, you believe that evolution could have created all the species on the earth, but didn't?
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The article also stated:
"Shortly after Mr. Ponder released his paper, Brigham Young University sociologist Sherrie Mills Johnson used data from national surveys to show that Mormon women are less likely to be depressed than American women in general. Johnson's conclusions upheld findings of some earlier studies that Mormons have no more depression than the nation's population as a whole.
Although Utah does have the highest rate of antidepressant use in the United States , there is no evidence that this is because of stress from the LDS lifestyle and culture. Credible research has shown that LDS women are actually more likely to identify themselves as "happy" than non-Mormon women."
If the statistics for depression in utah are already high, but Mormons don't contribute to that and make up more than half the population of Utah, the percentage of depressed non-Mormons in Utah must be rediculously high to make those statistics consistent.
So then the question becomes, what is it about the LDS lifestyle and culture that is so depressing to everyone around them?
Edit: In case anyone didn't notice, the tone for this was meant to be jokingly. I am a non-member living in Utah and I don't find anything particularly depressing about the lifestyle and culture here... maybe a bit frustrating sometimes though
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Pick the statement that best represents your viewpoint regarding evolution and if you would like post on why you feel that way. I am curious what most people (especially LDS) think about evolution and why. Comments and questions are also welcome.
Edit: I feel like an idiot, I didn't realize the forum automatically put Poll: in front of the title if there is a poll so now the title looks stupid when browsing
One Global Faith -- Is It Possible?
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
Amazon.com: Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment: Phil Zuckerman: Books