DigitalShadow
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Posts posted by DigitalShadow
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The abandonment of religion will never happen.
It's already started?
The LDS church is one of the fastest growing churches in existence.... and I'll bet it's growing faster than atheism is.
I'm going to have to disagree with you. People will never completely abandon their religious beliefs.
I would be curious to see some statistics. I would be willing to bet that the rate of growth of non-religion (not necessarily atheism) is much larger than you think.
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I seem to recall that the Jewish faith has a history of about 6,000 years, give or take 1,000.
I am sure that the intellectuals think that they will be able to disprove religion sooner or later. Strength in the arm of man and the wisdom of man. They don't need any God to tell them what to do.
Ben Raines
I follow all of your perceived commandments of God. For me and many other atheists and agnostics it has nothing to do with whether not we want God "telling us what to do", it is about the pursuit of truth.
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Besides, an atheistic world paradigm is just as faith based as is a theistic one.
-a-train
I never said atheistic or paradigm. I simply said that I think people would eventually outgrow faith, not dogmatically disbelieve. There is a distinct difference.
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Do you really believe that the Jews who have suffered these many centuries for their faith will suddenly give up on their heritage? Do you honestly think that the Muslims are nearing a universal denial of the administration of Gabriel to Muhammad (God's peace be upon him)? Do you really think that Christians who have so ardently defended their position against all philosophy these many centuries are about to drop the subject? Are we Mormons who find the prophecies of our scriptures fulfilled before us so vividly on the brink of dismissing it all to coincidence?
What startling and spectacular event is coming upon the whole earth that will cause billions to simultaneously deny Providence? This must surely be a massive event! What fantastic and tremendous change in all history is about to take place! Hollywood in all its imagery and escapism cannot portray an event of such enormous and universal effect!
Tell me, I pray, what is it, what gigantic event will bring about this great change?
-a-train
I never said that there would be a sudden massive world wide event, in fact I said quite the opposite of that.
In any case, I can't see the future, I can only present my personal opinion. My thought is that hundreds of years from now (between 300-1000) as science progresses and superstition fades away, less and less people will subscribe to any particular religion. I don't imagine some global faith changing event, or that the change to happen quickly by any sense of the word, and even thousands of years from now there will probably be small sects of various religions, but I think the majority of the people will not be religious.
I'm sure there are many religious wars yet to come and plenty of people dying for their faith along with people dying to be free from those people's faith and it will probably be a long bloody ordeal that may ultimately end in the destruction of the human race. I do however think that current religions will fade into history in the long run, one way or another.
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Why have any faith?
Because the alternative is unpleasant. People want there to be more to life and for there to be judgement and accountability. Whether any of the current religions are correct or not, I don't think anyone can dispute that at least the vast majority of religions are man-made and are born out of those basic desires.
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I don't believe that any of the current religions are correct and as such I think in another few hundred years religion will be phased out almost entirely and we will look back at current religions as we now look back on ancient mythology.
If I am wrong (which is entirely possible) and one religion is correct out of the ones that exist now, I don't think we (as a planet) will ever agree on it since religions are faith based and inherently tied to the personal subjective experience which is different for everyone. Even within the same religion, there is a tendency for disagreement and breaking up into sects. I find it hard to believe the entire planet could ever agree on a single faith, even under apocalyptic conditions, every religion would try to claim the events as proof of their own faith.
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Everyone wants public education to reflect their own views and teach their own values. The problem is that as a country we can't agree on the specifics of what those views and values are. It is not the job of public education to enforce specific viewpoints that we cannot agree on, but I do think its job includes telling kids what is out there. I don't care if it is mentioned in school that some people think homosexuality is immoral, as long as it is also mentioned that it is a religious belief and many people also think there is nothing wrong with it. If you don't want your kids to hear other viewpoints, I suggest you not let them leave the house.
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That doesn't make sense, since it is not a set of core beliefs that drives us daily. DS, does the world being round make it set of core beliefs? It doesn’t for me. What is core of belief? Can we say, ‘A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.’
Sexual orientation is not a set of core beliefs that drive us daily either. I don't know about you, but for me sexual attraction is a hormonal response, not a belief. Calling "gayism" a religion doesn't make much sense either.
In fact, now that I think about it, if you're defining a religion as anything that fits: ‘A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion’ I think that "republicanism" fits much better. We should really try to keep that out of schools as well. I don't want my children to think that society accepts republicans.
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DS, you do mean FLAT and not ROUND....yes, there are those who still believe it is so.
Nope, I meant round. It is a belief after all, and by virtue of your previous logic that makes it a religion, does it not? What if I don't share that belief? Why should I let you enforce your religious belief that the earth is round on my children?
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So the pictures we see from space aren't true?
Nope, it is all a conspiracy perpetrated by those fundamentalist roundists. Do not persecute my religious beliefs!
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How can we coin the term of 'What is Religion?' Main core of BELIEF....now you telling me they do not have a core belief of same gender marriage or even the atheist central creed that there is no god?
Some people believe the earth is round. We should should remove all references to the earth being round from school as well or we might give our poor children the idea that it is OK to think the earth is round which is clearly a religious belief.
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Think I know what thread you're talking about, DS, and I'm not sure I can be that rational.
Patriotic means loving your country and wishing for its good.
Yeah, I'm patriotic. See other thread.
I think if it's grounded in sober thought and real love it is. See so much bs about it, though.
Criticize? Of course. When people don't criticize you, it's often that they've given up hope.
Thank you for your post and for serving our country as well. I can tell you love this country quite a bit.
Personally I think that the word "patriotism" has been misused lately especially in American politics. Anyone who disagrees, questions or criticizes is immediately labled "unpatriotic" because that is easier than actually addressing what is brought up. To me that type of misuse is an insult to the people who truly love America and have put their lives on the line to defend it.
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According to the revelation I quoted, the people would have falsified the documents, if it turned out that they were a perfect match after the retranslation. Just like many things having to do with God, physical evidence is not what converts people. The Lord knew their hearts. They clearly were not honorable people, or they would have returned the manuscript to Joseph to begin with.
But let me explain something to you that you may not have thought of. The Prophet did produce the same story in "not the exact same words", but it was under the title 1 Nephi and 2 Nephi, and not Lehi, and it was authored by Nephi and not Lehi. That explains, perhaps, why the manuscript was lost for good. The conspirers, whoever they were, did not have a leg to stand on at that point, and their snare was in vain. Joseph clearly did the right thing. God in his wisdom forsaw this incident, and it served many purposes, including a very harsh lesson of obedience for Joseph.
Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them. And you also lost your gift at the same time, and your mind became darkened. Nevertheless, it is now restored unto you again; therefore see that you are faithful and continue on unto the finishing of the remainder of the work of translation as you have begun. (D&C 10:1-3)
Regards,
Vanhin
To me, religion requiring faith is a convenient way to remove the need for traditional evidence in order for belief. I am open to other explainations, but so far my experiences in this world have led me to that conclusion. I would be incredibly happy if something convinced me otherwise because I would like to believe that there is more to our existence than the physical world, but for now my opinion remains unchanged.
I thank you for all your insight so far :)
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Another thread got me thinking of this and I would like to discuss it further without derailing another thread. The goal is to get honest opinions on the subject and rationally discuss what patriotism means to different people. If you do not feel you can calmly express your opinion on the subject, feel free not to post because I do not want to see this thread locked. Here are some questions to get things started.
What does the word Patriotic mean to you?
Do you consider yourself patriotic? If so, in what way?
Is patriotism always a good thing? Why or why not?
Can someone be patriotic but still criticize aspects of their government? Why or why not?
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DS,
Faith is the evidence, and the witness you receive from God in return, is the proof. If you are seeking for the proof, before exercising faith, you will not find it until it's too late. You will receive no witness until your faith is tried (Ether 12:6). It's important to understand this, because you might actually be right on the verge of receiving the answers you seek to these questions. I believe the ball is in your court.
It would actually be bad advice for me to suggest that you should believe in or act upon everything that ever comes before you in order for you to discern the truth of it. Say, for example, that I come to you and say, "Hey DS! I have discovered that we should worship rocks, but the only way to worship rocks properly is to shoot ourselves in the foot. Then we will mysteriously know that worshipping rocks is the right thing to do."
You would probably tell me to go take a hike, because you already can tell that that is not right. But when someone tells you, "Hey DS, I have found that there is a God, and that by living his commandments, I have had greater happiness in my life. I know we cannot see God right now, but He has promised that if we earnestly seek him, by exercising faith in his Son, we can know for ourselves that it is true.", then that is a different story. Moving ahead in faith, in this instance, is not such a bad thing to do.
For one, our message is good, and you have all the power within you to discern the difference between good and evil. We all do.
For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. (Moroni 7:16)
You've got to know that the Church and it's teachings are good, and the teachings lead people to be generally good. There are a lot of things said about the Church, but just based on the content of our message, it is fundementally good!
So, in my opinion, that is reason enough to exercise faith, whatever that means in your case, and take that step into the unknown to determine whether it is of God or not. I personally think that the things you have been doing are in the right direction, and they at least demonstrate your desire to have faith. Which thing is prerequisite to actually having faith (see Alma 32:27). The proof is really "in the pudding" in this case. It's as simple as that, even though the trial of our faith may not be. :)
Regards,
Vanhin
I have been waiting to receive my witness and I will continue to wait. I am keeping an open mind as always.
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He could, but as he would have been in a different soul state the second time, chances are he wouldn't produce the exact same text. Toss in the possibility of whomever changing the original, and Joseph was in a no-win situation.
Better to just let it go.
HiJolly
He could have. But it was wisdom in God that he didn't. I think if you really think about it, you would see that what happened was a plot by Satan to frustrate the work. God forsaw this, and thus prepared through Nephi the solution.
Verily, I say unto you, that I will not suffer that Satan shall accomplish his evil design in this thing. For behold, he has put it into their hearts to get thee to tempt the Lord thy God, in asking to translate it over again.
And then, behold, they say and think in their hearts—We will see if God has given him power to translate; if so, he will also give him power again; And if God giveth him power again, or if he translates again, or, in other words, if he bringeth forth the same words, behold, we have the same with us, and we have altered them; Therefore they will not agree, and we will say that he has lied in his words, and that he has no gift, and that he has no power; Therefore we will destroy him, and also the work; and we will do this that we may not be ashamed in the end, and that we may get glory of the world.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, that Satan has great hold upon their hearts; he stirreth them up to iniquity against that which is good; And their hearts are corrupt, and full of wickedness and abominations; and they love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil; therefore they will not ask of me. (D&C 10:14-21)
The 116 pages were lost, and have never been recovered.
Regards,
Vanhin
I still don't get why he didn't translate them again. If he did translate them again the worst case scenario is that whoever has the real pages makes fake pages to make it look like he is a fraud, which seems unlikely that someone could produce a reasonably convincing fraud (similar in handwriting and style) in the same time it would take for him to simply retranslate. If he doesn't translate them again he looks like a fraud anyway and just sounds like he is making up excuses, but if he did translate them again, the people who had the real original pages would know he is not a false prophet (even if it is not the exact same words, it would presumably be pretty darn close). Maybe they just wanted to make sure he is truly a prophet? Seems like a logical test to me.
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Faith in what?
God?
Joseph Smith as a prophet?
Book of Mormon as true?
Church as being under God's direction?
I have trouble with the concept of faith in general. Believing in something and acting on it even though there is no evidence or even contradictory evidence doesn't make sense to me.
Usually when I tell people that, they try to convince me that I already have faith with examples that take advantage of the fact that "faith" has multiple meanings and connotations. I have frustrated many missionaries with this topic.
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Just more internet fear-mongering for the sake of a story. Vulnerabilities come and go, but realistically unless you're visiting some very shady sites, you don't have much to worry about it.
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Well I can see that. So, as far as scripture goes, in this thing the Book of Mormon is consistent with other volumes of sacred writ. :)
But I don't see the storytelling in scripture as just allegory. I think the stories are based on factual events, except for the obvious parables. It's just more useful to tell the story simply in a way that highlights the lessons being taught. If you have ever attended an LDS meeting where a lesson was being taught, you will have noticed that we tend to draw upon real life experiences quite often to illustrate gospel principles. It would be counterproductive to relate all the details of a story, even the ones that have nothing to do with the point, and would take up too much time (or space in the case of the plates of Nephi). Sometimes we do try to tell way too much of the story, in an attempt to be complete, and the point is missed and people fall asleep.
In the case of Nephi's writings, it is helpful also to bear in mind that he is writing this after the fact. God had commanded him to essentially duplicate his father's (Lehi's) record for a purpose unknown to him at the time. He was probably already in the Americas when he started writing the books of Nephi, so his accounts of the stories would have probably been simplified accordingly, and perhaps even exaggerated a little in his favor, since he already knew what had happened to his brothers.
That's the problem. I try to read it as a factual account, but by logical mind quickly labels it a fictional account because of the style and the inconsistencies with what we know of the native people of the Americas.
As it turns out, there was a purpose to Nephi's duplicate account. In 1828, against his better judgement, Joseph Smith allowed Martin Harris to take the 116 pages of what had been translated to his wife (and others to see). During this time the manuscript was lost... The 116 pages that were lost was the book of Lehi. They were never re-translated and instead the Books of Nephi furnish the relevant accounts of the record of his father.
Anyway, I am glad you are reading the Book of Mormon. you will notice that eventually the first hand accounts end, when Mormon begins narrating and composing the book from historical and sacred records available to him.
Regards,
Vanhin
That is another thing I've been curious about. Why are those pages lost? Why couldn't Joseph Smith simply translate them again?
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Ok, that's got me curious. Why don't you invite him in? Hemi and I have interesting contrasts in some of our beliefs.
I doubt Hemi would come in here, I don't think he likes me very much :)
I believe in evolution, he does not, for starters. Yet we both have had significant experiences with our Heavenly Father that shape everything in our lives.
I'd also like to point out (in keeping w/ the OP in this thread) that while it's not a popular view, most Mormons can believe in the Book of Mormon as a purely allegorical work and still be full-blown, temple active Mormons.
Not that I don't think it's literal, I just don't think I HAVE to believe it's literal. I paid particular attention to the temple interview questions this last time around, keeping in mind a brother Hale that doesn't necessarily believe that it's literal. He's good to go!
HiJolly
I thought part of the baptism was stating that you believe the Book of Mormon to be true or something to that effect? I remember when talking to missionaries, they wanted me to get baptized and went over the questions I would be asked and I couldn't honestly say yes to them all if I only believed the Book of Mormon is purely allegorical (which I have no problem with).
I have no problem following the teachings and most people in Utah mistake me for Mormon unless I tell them, but my lack of faith is what keeps me from becoming a member.
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DS,
No, thankfully my siblings have not tried to take my life (not that I represent Nephi in my family anyway), but there is enough contrast that I easily see the story as plausible. Dispite the blessings of the Lord in my life, many times over, I still sometimes make wrong choices... knowingly. Not to the extent that Laman and Lemuel did, but it doesn't seem out of place when you look to other scriptures for precedent.
Despite any possible exaggerations, I certainly don't believe he exaggerated the actual events. An angel did appear to them, yet Laman and Lemuel continued in their disbelief. This only goes to show, that tangible/physical evidence, such as an angel appearing to someone, is not really the proof that we need about spiritual things.
Judas Iscariot was an Apostle of the Lord - one of his Chosen - and walked and talked with Jesus Christ, and was a witness to his power. Yet he betrayed him to his death.
Under the direction of Moses, Aaron caused all the water in the land of Egypt to turn to blood, and many other plagues, yet Pharaoh would not let the children of Israel go.
Sincerely,
Vanhin
I think that may be part of what keeps me from accepting the scriptures (in general, not just the Book of Mormon) as actual events. To me they feel like parables or fairy tales with exaggerations that specifically demonstrate what you should and shouldn't do, rather than actual events. I know the scriptures are meant to teach, so I guess it is no surprise, but that is just my impression for what it's worth.
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DS,
Well that's an interesting take on it. I have seen this kind of contrast many times, so seems pretty plausible to me. These forums should be enough evidence that people have different levels of faith, for example. Even within my own family I have seen siblings, who all have been raised the same way, deal differently with challenges in life, or questions of faith. To me the contrast seem to be in harmony with what I have experienced in life.
However, the author of those passages was Nephi, and his stated purpose was to include things in the story that were of worth to the reader. And, there is definetly the possibility that he exaggerated or at least told the story in a way that focused on the point of the story more than the details.
This was not his personal journal, but a sacred record he was commanded of God to write, and it was for the purpose of persuading men to come unto God. This is evident from what he wrote in 1 Ne. 6:
And it mattereth not to me that I am particular to give a full account of all the things of my father, for they cannot be written upon these plates, for I desire the room that I may write of the things of God.
For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.
Wherefore, the things which are pleasing unto the world I do not write, but the things which are pleasing unto God and unto those who are not of the world. Wherefore, I shall give commandment unto my seed, that they shall not occupy these plates with things which are not of worth unto the children of men. (1 Ne. 6)
Regards,
Vanhin
Do your siblings attempt to take your life and deny the will of God even after it has been directly told to them by angels? I'm not saying that those sort of contrasts don't happen in real life, but rather the extent to which Nephi is a paragon of values that are considered good by religion and Laman and Lemuel are the embodiment of values that are considered bad, seems purposely exaggerated to me for the purpose of a parable.
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I've attached it. Hopefully it will work.
Yep, that seems to work now, thanks :)
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The term "stained with blood" could very well be allegorical, or it could be literal, we don't know. But, as you mention, I think that there were metal swords as well that were patterned after Labans sword, but that doesn't mean that they didn't make other weapons as well, such as the Macuahuitl.
Please take a look at the ancient Mayan artwork of a man who is holding something that looks like a sword.
I didn't see ancient Mayan artwork of a man with a sword in any of the links you gave, but one of them required being a member of forum to see so I didn't get to see the content.
One Global Faith -- Is It Possible?
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
I agree 100%
I offer my opinion when it is asked of me (this thread did start with a question to members of the forum), but I do not look down on those who disagree as I know that I may very well be wrong. In fact, I truly enjoy conversing with people I disagree with since there is greater opportunity to learn something :)