How is God our Father?

[Ankh]

Greetings Brothers and Sisters,

It is my understanding that a "Spirit" is an "organized intelligence.", which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was "organized" into a "spirit." That it is something that is NOT created or made.

In the process of time each of these "intelligences" was clothed with a "spiritual body" by Heavenly parents and each became personages of spirit with bodies of eyes and ears and hands and feet. Each of us had the same Father of our spiritual bodies, and because He lives in Heaven, we have been rightly taught to refer to Him as "our Heavenly Father."

Now... my question to you is this. In what sense is God our Father? Since "Intelligence" is Not created or made, was it the Father's organization of "intelligence" into spirit and the clothing of these "spirits" with spiritual bodies by way of Heavenly parents that made Him our Father???

How am I to understand the following....

"Have we not all one Father? hath not one God created us?" (Malachi 2:10)

"So God created man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." (Genesis 1:27)

Again, since "Intelligence" is NOT created or made are we to understand that this "creation" of the Father is speaking of the procreation of our "spiritual bodies" ~ (the image and likeness of God) which were then clothed upon that "intelligence/spirit" that was NOT made? How can God then be "the Father of spirits" (Hebrews 12:9) if each "spirit" was NOT created but organized?

I hope I'm being clear here on my question... I'm sorry for being repetitive, maybe I have already answered my question??? Anyway, just looking for some clarification from the brethren

Thanks in advance.

Ankh

[Guest tomk]

I don't know that we know, as in an official Church teaching, how our spirit bodies came to be.

I can share with you my own speculation, but just realize it is that -- my speculation.

We have been given the model of "creation" of spirit as well as physical bodies down here in mortality. Father and Mother are already teaching us how it will be like in the eternities. They are teaching us this by virtue of how our own families come into existence. By the union of man and woman.

So it is fair to say that all bodies are created by the union of a man and a woman, of sperm and egg (of some sort -- I don't know what a "spirit" sperm or egg would be composed of, exactly - I guess the spirit version of the physical). This would seem to hold true whether the body being created was a spirit or a physical body.

Now, when I say "created" -- in all cases I mean "organized" -- for as you indicated -- nothing gets "created" -- all matter is co-eternal with God, co-existent with God. Was neither created nor made. It has always existed.

Now, once God obtained His Godhood -- which happened SOOO LONG AGO that for all intents and purposes (especially to our puny finite minds) He has ALWAYS been a God -- He and our Heavenly Mother began creating spirit bodies. Again -- by the same processes men and women employ here in mortality. I don't know if the gestation is 9 months or just a few moments, but I believe the beginnings are the same. Children should be conceived in love - and there is no more a loving and intimate act between a man and a woman that I can think of. For that reason, I believe that my spirit body was created in a similar manner to my physical body.

God is our Father. We are co-eternal with Him, that is true. But it was He and Mother that took the necessary steps to move us from "unorganized" intelligences into a new phase of existence as "organized intelligences." It was then that He became our Father.

So I guess the answer to your question is "yes." That is why we call Him Father.

He is the perfect Father. He not only gave us "life" - as organized intelligences - but continues to walk beside us, from moment to moment, unseen, but no less present and no less real.

Tom

[Guest tomk]

A few links from lds.org:

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - Life after Death

LDS.org - Relief Society Chapter Detail - Sons and Daughters of the Eternal Father

Tom

[Ankh]

Greetings Brother Tom,

Thanks for your reply.

God is our Father. We are co-eternal with Him, that is true. But it was He and Mother that took the necessary steps to move us from "unorganized" intelligences into a new phase of existence as "organized intelligences." It was then that He became our Father.

So I guess the answer to your question is "yes." That is why we call Him Father.

Ok. Yes my understanding is that the "spirits of men" (intelligence) have always existed and were NOT created gods from nothing because gods are infinite and have always been co-existent with God. We were NOT created gods, but God has created us "sons"... as you indicated by moving us from "unorganized intelligences" into a new phase of existence as "organized intelligences."... and then Heavenly Father and Mother bringing forth (procreating) "spiritual bodies to house our then "organized intelligence.", thus then making Him our "Father of spirits" and we His "sons."

Alrighty there Tom... you're comments have helped me to see this in a much more clearer perspective. Thanks bro

Ankh

[Guest tomk]

Greetings Brother Tom,

Thanks for your reply.

Ok. Yes my understanding is that the "spirits of men" (intelligence) have always existed and were NOT created gods from nothing because gods are infinite and have always been co-existent with God. We were NOT created gods, but God has created us "sons"... as you indicated by moving us from "unorganized intelligences" into a new phase of existence as "organized intelligences."... and then Heavenly Father and Mother bringing forth (procreating) "spiritual bodies to house our then "organized intelligence.", thus then making Him our "Father of spirits" and we His "sons."

Alrighty there Tom... you're comments have helped me to see this in a much more clearer perspective. Thanks bro

Ankh

We can consider ourselves "Gods" in the fact that we are "Gods in embryo" -- we are the "same species" as God the Father....we just lack the spiritual maturation.

Some, through obedience, obtained godhood in the pre-existence, while still spirits. Christ was one of those. The Holy Ghost was one of those.

So a body is not needed for Godhood, per se, but perhaps is needed for Exaltation...Heavenly Father's mode of living...being able to have spirit children.

[Ankh]

A few links from lds.org:

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - Life after Death

LDS.org - Relief Society Chapter Detail - Sons and Daughters of the Eternal Father

Tom

Thanks Tom for links.

Question. How do I make a link with just the words (as you did here) without putting in the usual www. etc? I have one I would like to share with those interested.

Ankh.

[Guest tomk]

Ankh:

I just paste in the entire link, including the http://www.blah blah blah

The message board has settings in place to PARSE the URL and turn it into a friendly, human readable link.

In other words -- I am just pasting the link into my reply and the message board software is doing the rest. I am not doctoring the link at all.

Perhaps you have this turned off in your settings?

[Ankh]

Greeting Tom,

you wrote the following...

We can consider ourselves "Gods" in the fact that we are "Gods in embryo" -- we are the "same species" as God the Father....we just lack the spiritual maturation.

I understand.

Some, through obedience, obtained godhood in the pre-existence, while still spirits. Christ was one of those. The Holy Ghost was one of those.

Oh ok now I understand. Is this why Christ and the Holy Ghost are considered the other 2 members of the Godhead... vs others? Hmmm

So a body is not needed for Godhood, per se, but perhaps is needed for Exaltation...Heavenly Father's mode of living...being able to have spirit children.

I see. A "fulness of joy" is to have a (resurrected) "body" and the "spirit" joined together in the Celestial Kingdom?

Ankh

[Guest tomk]

Correct.

All will be resurrected - even murderers. It is a free gift.

What is not given "without becoming" is Exaltation. Having that resurrected body AND being able to live with Heavenly Father. Anything short of that is not having a "fullness of joy" -- correct.

Perhaps there were "OTHER GODS" present at the time of creation -- besides members of the Godhead. Such can be gleaned from the creation accounts given in Moses and Abraham. I can provide those if needed. The verses say "They, the gods, created ..." indicating there were more Gods involved in the creation than just 3.

Now -- keep in mind -- we need to distinguish between the "fun interesting trivia" and what is needful for salvation.

The only Gods we need to be mindful of are these 3: God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. All else is interesting, but does not help us HERE and NOW. Makes sense?

:)

Tom

[Dr T]

Just for a different perspective on what the two of you are talking about, I do not believe we are little gods (in embryo) or that we can ever become a God, and personally, I think that believing that is blasphemous! I know I differ from LDS belief because I am a Christian but I needed to put in my two cents on this issues.

[Ankh]

Greetings again Tom,

You wrote'''

Correct.

All will be resurrected - even murderers. It is a free gift.

Yes... John 5:28-29/Revelation 20:12-13

What is not given "without becoming" is Exaltation. Having that resurrected body AND being able to live with Heavenly Father. Anything short of that is not having a "fullness of joy" -- correct.

Makes me think of Psalms 16:11.

Perhaps there were "OTHER GODS" present at the time of creation -- besides members of the Godhead. Such can be gleaned from the creation accounts given in Moses and Abraham. I can provide those if needed. The verses say "They, the gods, created ..." indicating there were more Gods involved in the creation than just 3.

I fully agree and believe that there were "OTHER GODS" involved in the creation of worlds. The book of Abraham just confirms it as well as Genesis... "Let US make..."

Now -- keep in mind -- we need to distinguish between the "fun interesting trivia" and what is needful for salvation.

I understand Tom

The only Gods we need to be mindful of are these 3: God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. All else is interesting, but does not help us HERE and NOW. Makes sense?

Yes. 1 Corinthians 8:6.

oh by the way... you mentioned in an earlier post this...

Perhaps you have this turned off in your settings?

Where do I go to find out for sure?

Thanks Tom :)

Ankh

[Guest User-Removed]

Correct.

All will be resurrected - even murderers. It is a free gift.

What is not given "without becoming" is Exaltation. Having that resurrected body AND being able to live with Heavenly Father. Anything short of that is not having a "fullness of joy" -- correct.

Perhaps there were "OTHER GODS" present at the time of creation -- besides members of the Godhead. Such can be gleaned from the creation accounts given in Moses and Abraham. I can provide those if needed. The verses say "They, the gods, created ..." indicating there were more Gods involved in the creation than just 3.

Now -- keep in mind -- we need to distinguish between the "fun interesting trivia" and what is needful for salvation.

The only Gods we need to be mindful of are these 3: God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. All else is interesting, but does not help us HERE and NOW. Makes sense?

:)

Tom

We know through Revelation that there were at least 3 "Gods" involved in the creation of this world...and possibly others...

1. Elohim

2. Jehovah

3. Michael

[Dr T]

Michael?

[Guest User-Removed]

Greetings Brother Tom,

Thanks for your reply.

Ok. Yes my understanding is that the "spirits of men" (intelligence) have always existed and were NOT created gods from nothing because gods are infinite and have always been co-existent with God. We were NOT created gods, but God has created us "sons"... as you indicated by moving us from "unorganized intelligences" into a new phase of existence as "organized intelligences."... and then Heavenly Father and Mother bringing forth (procreating) "spiritual bodies to house our then "organized intelligence.", thus then making Him our "Father of spirits" and we His "sons."

Alrighty there Tom... you're comments have helped me to see this in a much more clearer perspective. Thanks bro

Ankh

Ankh....Have you bothered to bring these topics up with your Bishop, Stake President or the Missionaries in your ward?

Not knowing how long you've been a member of the Church, but the Endowment in the Temple answers some of these questions. Additionally, I know of no Temple President who wouldn't enjoy taking the time to meet with you and answer any question you might have.

[Guest User-Removed]

Correct.

All will be resurrected - even murderers. It is a free gift.

What is not given "without becoming" is Exaltation. Having that resurrected body AND being able to live with Heavenly Father. Anything short of that is not having a "fullness of joy" -- correct.

Perhaps there were "OTHER GODS" present at the time of creation -- besides members of the Godhead. Such can be gleaned from the creation accounts given in Moses and Abraham. I can provide those if needed. The verses say "They, the gods, created ..." indicating there were more Gods involved in the creation than just 3.

Now -- keep in mind -- we need to distinguish between the "fun interesting trivia" and what is needful for salvation.

The only Gods we need to be mindful of are these 3: God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. All else is interesting, but does not help us HERE and NOW. Makes sense?

:)

Tom

Resurrection isn't a gift....it's a requirment. There are two deaths...The physical death that almost all must go through...then the Spiritual Death...that which will occur after the "Day of Judgement"

We know, through the Bible and the Book of Mormon that there has from time to time existed persons who's lifes have been so exemplary, that they were "Translated". While Translation exempts these people from physical death...I seem to recall a Professor at the Y saying all translated will one day experience some form of physical death...Can't recall the 5 W's of that statement, but will look for it.

[Guest User-Removed]

Correct.

All will be resurrected - even murderers. It is a free gift.

What is not given "without becoming" is Exaltation. Having that resurrected body AND being able to live with Heavenly Father. Anything short of that is not having a "fullness of joy" -- correct.

Perhaps there were "OTHER GODS" present at the time of creation -- besides members of the Godhead. Such can be gleaned from the creation accounts given in Moses and Abraham. I can provide those if needed. The verses say "They, the gods, created ..." indicating there were more Gods involved in the creation than just 3.

Now -- keep in mind -- we need to distinguish between the "fun interesting trivia" and what is needful for salvation.

The only Gods we need to be mindful of are these 3: God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. All else is interesting, but does not help us HERE and NOW. Makes sense?

:)

Tom

Resurrection isn't a gift....it's a requirement. There are two deaths...The physical death that almost all must go through...then the Spiritual Death...that which will occur after the "Day of Judgement"

We know, through the Bible and the Book of Mormon that there has from time to time existed persons who's lifes have been so exemplary, that they were "Translated". While Translation exempts these people from physical death...I seem to recall a Professor at the Y saying all translated will one day experience some form of physical death...Can't recall the 5 W's of that statement, but will look for it.

[Guest User-Removed]

Just for a different perspective on what the two of you are talking about, I do not believe we are little gods (in embryo) or that we can ever become a God, and personally, I think that believing that is blasphemous! I know I differ from LDS belief because I am a Christian but I needed to put in my two cents on this issues.

Seeing how you're correct on your support of the Lakers...We'll give you a pass on your error in doctrine....

[Guest User-Removed]

Michael?

Yes...Michael.....

[Dr T]

Hahaha DogSkip. Next game tonight 5:30 in SA. They'll come out tough for sure but as long as we take 4, that's all I want. Bring on Boston (that would be great!) As far as the error in doctrine is concerned, it is not mine that is in question sir.

[Dr T]

Michael is not a god skippy.

[Guest User-Removed]

Hahaha DogSkip. Next game tonight 5:30 in SA. They'll come out tough for sure but as long as we take 4, that's all I want. Bring on Boston (that would be great!) As far as the error in doctrine is concerned, it is not mine that is in question sir.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....I do believe I read somewhere in someone's Journal of Discourses....The Lord does look kindly on the odd lot Lakers Fan....bwahahahahahahaha

[Guest User-Removed]

Michael is not a god skippy.

You must be confusing the Michael I'm referring to with that Michael played by John Travolta.

Michael is/was the Archangel of Heaven...and was one of the participants in the creation of this world...and quite possibly other worlds...Now...coming as you do from a Traditional Christian perspective, this must seem a heresy to you...but alas brutha...there are things we can agree on...like the NBA MVP.

[Ankh]

Greetings MyDogSkip,

Ankh....Have you bothered to bring these topics up with your Bishop, Stake President or the Missionaries in your ward?

MyDogSkip... I have just recently made my way back to the LDS faith after a 10 year absence. I lately have been re-familiaring myself with the LDS faith and its teachings as to be sure (this time) I understand. This time around I don't have all the excess bagage that I was carrying around (from previous Christian indoctrination) that interfered with my progressing in the LDS faith. I am now much convinced this is where I belong and before I make my way back to the church I want it to be settled in my mind that I know what I believe.

Not knowing how long you've been a member of the Church, but the Endowment in the Temple answers some of these questions. Additionally, I know of no Temple President who wouldn't enjoy taking the time to meet with you and answer any question you might have.

Thanks MyDogSkip for the encouragement. I do look forward to this time, but until then, I must prepare... I finally feel I've come full circle in my quest for "truth" and that "truth" lays in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Peace to you always

Ankh

[Dr T]

...there are things we can agree on...like the NBA MVP

Now in that we are brothers!

[AbuSamuel]

I have been reading your posts and decided to chime in. I concure with the spiritual progression and glorified bodies. Christ gave us a commandment "Follow Me." and if He told us to then it must be possible. The earthly examples are many; Christ in spirit prior to his birth, Christ is born and grows in this mortality and dies, Christ with a resurected and glorified body. If I try to be more "Christ Like" I can have hope and faith that my existance will follow a similar path.

Now here is my dilema: If God the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three seperate beings as taught by Joseph Smith in his vision how do I reconcile scriptures such as Mosiah 15:1-9 "1)...God himself shall come down..." and "2)...because he dwelleth in the flesh he shall be called the Son of God..." and so on?

I like to think that I am a pretty smart guy. I have a testimony and firmly believe that I am in the right place, but this makes it somewhat difficult to explain to a non-member about the nature of God and Jesus when the Book of Mormon tells us this. So I will cast this out into the current and see what my net brings in.